Replacing retirement by marriage – part 1
Fortunately, Charly's life is full of pleasant surprises (unfortunately sometimes also less pleasant ones). For several years now he has lived with his Thai wife Teoy in a resort not far from Udonthani. In his stories, Charly mainly tries to raise awareness of Udon, but he also discusses many other things in Thailand. He also gives a glimpse into his experience in Thailand.
Replacing retirement by marriage – part 1
Anyone who has followed my escapades here in recent weeks knows that I have now married my Teoy. Otherwise see my previous episodes “A week in Bangkok, parts 1 to 5”.
As far as we're concerned, there wasn't much need for the butter note. However, after almost six years together, we were more or less forced to do so by a decision by the Thai government that took effect on November 1, 2019. What does that decision entail? Foreign nationals residing in Thailand on an original basis of a Non Immigrant O – A retirement visa must present health insurance from that date in order to qualify for another year of residence status. And now let me be in possession of an annual residence permit on the basis of such a visa O – A retirement. So bingo.
If I understand correctly, the Thai government requires health insurance that provides annual cover of 400.000 baht inpatient and 40.000 baht outpatient. For convenience, the Thai government has designated a number of health insurers that meet their requirements, such as Pacific Cross and a number of other insurers. AA Insurance Brokers can tell you all about it and send you offers based on your personal situation. Biggest showstoppers: a mandatory medical exam, the exclusion of all previous medical problems, an age limit and a hefty annual premium.
I myself have an inpatient insurance with AXA with a fairly high deductible, but no outpatient insurance. I have opted for a high deductible (more than EUR 6.000 per contract year) because it allows me to keep the annual premium at an acceptable level (EUR 2.300). Moreover, I believe that you should only insure what you could never afford.
This is a very arbitrary and ill-considered measure by the Thai government. Random because without any substantiation a certain group of pensioners is suddenly confronted with it. Why highlight the Non-Immigrant O – A retirement in particular? That is precisely the category of foreigners who are required to keep 800.000 baht in a Thai bank account. Why not make demands on all other foreigners residing here, for both the short and long term? So also for tourists.
I understand that the Thai government wants to get rid of all uninsured foreigners walking around here. But in this way it is simply changing the rules during the match. As a government you would of course appear much more reliable if you declared this measure applicable to all new cases. So that everyone can take this new measure into account. So for foreigners who enter Thailand from November 1, 2019 on the basis of an O - A visa. This unreliability is not an exclusive phenomenon of the Thai government. It seems as if that unreliability is a globally accepted virus to correct the government's own failures.
Misguided because the same government does not provide a solution to a number of problems that foreigners in Thailand face when they want to purchase such health insurance. Then, as the government, come up with health insurance that meets the set minimum cover for in- and outpatients, without age limits, with a reasonable premium and without exclusions. And simply make that health insurance compulsory for everyone who wants to stay in Thailand for a longer period of time. For tourists, it is sufficient to require that travel insurance, including medical expenses, must be taken out that covers at least the period that one will stay in Thailand. But if the Thai government does not appreciate foreigners who want to stay here in Thailand, then it is of course a well-considered and fantastic decision. And more decisions will follow within this framework in the coming years.
There were five options for me to get out of the new rule:
- Purchasing an elite visa, but I find that unreasonably expensive. Roughly 53 times more expensive compared to an annual extension of the period of stay. Plus, of course, the question of whether the elite visa will remain unchanged in the coming years or whether the whims of the government will also give rise to unforeseen criteria;
- Replacing the O – A visa with an O visa. I had to leave Thailand for that. That will now work, but entering Thailand again is really difficult at the moment;
- Get married, so that this requirement does not apply for the time being;
- Taking out health insurance that would meet the new requirement. I have selected this option through AA Insurance Brokers, but there are too many disadvantages for me. A higher annual premium than I now pay to AXA, a maximum annual cover of 5 million baht (now I have an annual cover of 45 million baht), a mandatory examination and exclusions for previous medical problems;
- Leave Thailand and return to the Netherlands or another country.
On Tuesday, September 8, immediately after the alternative Songkran days, went to Immigration Udon with the intention of converting retirement into marriage. However, things turn out a little differently than I had planned. The immigration officer on duty sees that my current period of stay ends on October 22. He does not think it is necessary to convert retirement into marriage right now, although I think you can do this throughout the year of residence. No, he sees more that one month before my period of residence ends and must therefore be extended, to be done in one go. We are handed a form that contains all the requirements for a residence period of one year on the basis of marriage and are more or less expelled from the office. The officer walks away, signaling that the conversation is over. The girl with whom I am sitting at the counter nods in agreement when I say that the change can still be made at any time. But yes, the officer is in charge and the girl is careful not to contradict the officer.
So now back to Immigration on September 22.
What are the requirements of Immigration Udon?
- The completed form TM 7 with a recent passport photo;
- Copies of the passport and of all pages with the current visa, re-entry visa, stay periods stamp, arrival stamps and the form TM 6;
- Valid visa Non Immigrant O or B;
- In case you are employed in Thailand, a minimum income of 40,000 baht per month. Plus a working permit plus Income Tax papers from the past year;
- Or, in case you enjoy a pension, demonstrate that this pension is at least 40.000 baht per month. The proof must consist of a letter of certification, issued by your embassy, and legalized by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
You would also have to prove that you have a bank balance in a Thai bank account of 400.000 baht, for at least the last two months.
I think it's about either 40.000 baht per month as income OR a bank balance of 400.000 baht. Not AND AND;
- A bank statement from your Thai bank that the bank balance is indeed 400.000 baht, for at least the last two months.
This bank statement must be issued on the same day as the day you go to Immigration. Plus a copy of all pages of your bank book;
- Marriage certificate;
- Your wife's ID card and house registration book;
- Two passport photos of 4 by 6 cm;
- Birth certificates of your Thai (step) children;
- Directions to get to your house;
- Photos of you with your wife in front of the house where you live, with the house number visible, photos of the living room and bedroom;
- Other documents that Immigration is pleased to request.
In Udon, this article apparently states that you must bring a witness.
Correction: Two witnesses are required. See my next posting.
I use the week of September 14 to look around in Udon again. We spend three days in the Pannarai hotel. Striking: the Pannarai hotel is sold out in the days that we stay there. Reducing the overnight price from 1.500 baht to 999 baht will have contributed to this. Normally, the thought at Thai is that if things go down, the price
must be increased. For example, I hear from a friend, who is also coming to Udon this week, that the Basaja hotel in Pattaya has increased its price from 1.000 to 1.200 baht. Pannarai has solved this in a non-Thai way. Probably not Thai but a Chinese director. Just kidding. I hear from the hotel manager that they happen to have a large group of nurses in house for two nights for some convention.
Latest news: the Pannarai hotel would be for sale for 400 million baht.
In the next posting my closing story about renewing my period of residence based on marriage instead of retirement.
Hi Charlie
1. “The immigration officer on duty sees that my current period of stay ends on October 22. He does not think it is necessary to convert retirement into marriage right now, although I think you can do this throughout the year of residence.”
The immigration officer is right here, but he acted strictly within the requirements of the rules that apply there. Being a little more flexible would have saved you a trip. However, the girl was also right, because she also answered your question about “converting” correctly.
Why both are now right can be explained by the fact that you followed a wrong line of thought. After all, you assume that you are going to “convert” something.
But that's not true. You will only extend your current period of stay. Just as you did before, only now you're going to do it on a different basis. You are now going to ask for an extension based on “Thai Marriage” instead of “Retired” and then nothing will be “converted”.
“Conversion” means changing residence status. From a “Tourist status” (Visa exemption, SETV, METV) to a “Non-immigrant” status. In fact, you change your basic visa, which gives you a new period of residence. If you are staying here as a “Tourist” you must do this, otherwise you cannot obtain a year extension. In principle you can always ask this (the girl has answered your question correctly here). There must be at least one week (may be more if your immigration office decides) of residence remaining when you submit the application. After all, you don't get that immediately, but it takes a while. Then and if permitted, you will first be granted a 90-day stay, just as if you had entered with a Non-immigrant O. You can then later extend those 90 days for a year. This can then be done on the basis of, among other things, “Retired”, “Thai marriage”, etc.
Converting a Non-immigrant visa to another Non-immigrant visa is (normally) not possible at immigration. You write that correctly, by the way “2. Replacing the O – A visa with an O visa. I had to leave Thailand for that.”
In your case, however, nothing needs to be “converted”, because you have already obtained that immigrant status with your Non-immigrant OA. What you are actually asking at immigration is a one-year extension of your current period of residence, but on a different basis. Based on “Thai Marriage” instead of “Retired”. This can normally be done without any problems, although the conditions and requirements are of course different. But “extension” also means that you must meet the deadline for submitting the application. (Here the immigration officer is right). This is usually 30 days before expiry, although there are several immigration offices that accept the application 45 days before expiry. If they had been more flexible, they would have simply accepted the application instead of strictly looking at those 30 days.
2. “I think it's about either 40.000 baht per month as income OR a bank balance of 400.000 baht. Not AND AND”.
Agree. That should indeed be “OR” and not “AND”.
3. I am not going to anticipate your follow-up story too much, but I expect that you will first have obtained an “Under consideration” stamp for 30 days. Nothing to be worried about. Is something that most immigration offices apply to a “Thai Marriage”. It gives them time to investigate your request. Normally they come to your home once in a while. Usually doesn't take that long and normally you get a phone call first when they come by. If everything is normal, you can then pick up your final annual extension on the date stated in your “under consideration” stamp. This final annual extension will normally follow your previous extension end date. In other words, you do not make any profit or loss because of that “Under consideration” stamp.
But maybe it's an exception now and you're lucky and they let your next year extension start on November 1 instead of October 22 given a current measure. A week's profit
Good luck in advance.
Should be “In your case, however, nothing needs to be “converted”, because you have already obtained that Non-immigrant status with your Non-immigrant OA.
Once again an unprecedentedly accurate and 100% qualitative answer Ronny. You are invaluable to this Blog. I just wanted to get that out!
@RonnyLatYa
Thank you for your detailed explanation Ronnie. And yes, you are absolutely right. Indeed, I took for granted that something would be converted. Then it is not so, just explained you correctly.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Isn't it possible to get Thai 400.000 inpatient + 40.000 outpatient insurance for a premium between 10-20.000 baht per year (so it's affordable to keep your original expat insurance on the side)?
I know the case of someone aged 70+ who paid 16.000 baht for the above coverage (no inspection). And his Dutch insurer persists. He was surprised during the extension of his OA visa, but was able to arrange this Thai insurance within a few hours.
I have seen premiums of under 10.000 baht via the FB page “Foreigners stranded abroad due to lockdown Thailand”.
Which insurer is it that offers the above-mentioned insurance for this premium?
@Steven
I am not a health insurance expert. In my case, AA came up with an offer in the range of 120.000 baht per year at Pacific Cross with a mandatory medical examination and excluding my medical history. I would just put this question to AA Brokers Insurance. Or maybe AA can respond to this posting here.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Pfff what a hassle, this prevents me from emigrating to Thailand, then it is not so crazy arranged in the Netherlands.
Thai people have to integrate, but once they have an mvv, they can simply take out health insurance and go to work.
Hi Charlie,
well written story. May I make a small comment on one paragraph?
Qty
This is a very arbitrary and ill-considered measure by the Thai government. Random because without any substantiation a certain group of pensioners is suddenly confronted with it. Why highlight the Non-Immigrant O – A retirement in particular? That is precisely the category of foreigners who are required to keep 800.000 baht in a Thai bank account. Why not make demands on all other foreigners residing here, for both the short and long term? So also for tourists.
Unqte
Sentence: why not make demands on all foreigners residing here, for both the short and long term? Then assume you mean Non-O visa? I certainly understand that you are fed up with the obligation of insurance for Non-A, but isn't it a bit short-sighted? Example: I have been living here on a Non-O for over 13 years now. I had years of insurance, never had to use it, but above 70 premiums went down so much that it was no longer attractive. I also have medical restrictions, so I'm 74 so I can't insure anymore. So if the Thai government would accept your position, I'll have to leave Thailand, not really fun anymore. Incidentally, all medical costs incurred after termination of the insurance are simply paid in cash. Think that there are many living here with a Non-O visa who should not think that insurance would also be mandatory for them. If the Thai government was smart, they would introduce standard insurance for long-term foreigners. With a cover of Thb 400.000 in-patient and Thb 40.000 out-patient. Do you still want to pay several costs yourself to a private hospital? With a premium between 40.000 and 75.000 Thb, many are interested, I suspect. Thais have state insurance for little money but also go to private hospitals. That state contributes through taxes received from Thais is also not too bad. I pay more tax than standard working Thai, despite all deductions. Well, I just wanted to get this out.
regards
@Mo
Read my post again. Then you will see that I blame the Thai government for not coming up with such health insurance.
Yours faithfully,
Charlie.
Quote: If the Thai government was smart, they would introduce standard insurance for long-term foreigners. With a cover of Thb 400.000 in-patient and Thb 40.000 out-patient. Do you still want to pay several costs yourself to a private hospital?
Can you also explain why this would be smart?
With all those elderly expats in Thailand, it could well become a ship of make up with that premium.
You can also choose to do nothing and let many walk around uninsured.
There would already be 400 Baht covered, which they would otherwise miss out on.
Will it cover all cases financially? No, certainly not, but that way everyone already has a certain initial buffer in case things go wrong and on which they can already fall back.
The video with that German, published on the blog last week, illustrates what the consequences of being uninsured can be. An accident, illness…. no one is free from it, although many think: yes everyone can neigh, except me.
As Ronny writes: 400.000THB coverage may not be able to cover everything, but it is already a solid financial security and buffer.
I also want to lose it. Ronny, thank you for your unbridled effort and very detailed information. Chapoo!
I find point 5 rather odd.
The Income Statement letter that I received from the NL embassy did not need to be legalized here in Khon Kaen, according to the Immi, and was immediately accepted.
@Jos M
These are the requirements as made known to me on paper by immigration Udon.
Khonkaen may have other requirements.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Hello Charlie,
I have had a wedding visa for 11 years and have a number of points where it is different for me.
Item 5
5. Or, in case you enjoy a pension, demonstrate that this pension is at least 40.000 baht per month. The proof must consist of a letter of certification, issued by your embassy, and legalized by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
I have never had to have my visa support letter legalized by the Thai Ministry, we have often asked the Immigration Department in Udon and they say no, it is not necessary.
Visa support letter is enough if it is at least 400000 baht or more.
I returned in June and collected my visa in July.
Item 10
Birth certificates of your Thai (step) children;
I have a stepdaughter and in those 11 yrs have never had to show a birth certificate for her at Udon Immigration and never been asked..
Birth certificate of my own daughter.
Item 13
In Udon, this article apparently states that you must bring a witness.
Correction: Two witnesses are required. See my next posting.
I take 1 witness every yr and they never ask where is witness 2
I often take the same lady/man with me and they don't make a fuss about it.
And the Udon Immigration has never come to see where I live in those 11 years.
Greetings
Pekasu
@ somewhere in Thailand
I am just giving an account of my experiences. Even within the same immigration office, for whatever reason, things can turn out differently.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Just a comment on Pekasu,
In Udon, 2 witnesses are needed. The first is your wife and the second in our case is usually the neighbor.
I have so far visited 3x in 17 years.
First time when I moved to Udon.
2nd time was after about 10 years and last time of winter.
Then all the foreigners in our village were visited.
Chat and of course photos taken with are all for the archive.
The first part of your piece mentions the health insurance required for the application. You have been dealing with this and leave the outcome in the dark, because you have insurance that does not cover the out-patient part.
This insurance requirement is not mentioned in the list of requirements of the immigration officer and I do not read it back. Apparently this is of no concern to them. That makes a difference to the laundry list. Let's hope that the AND-EN story (40.000 baht per month as income and 400.000 baht in a bank account) is an invention of the employee and does not hold up, because then many in Thailand will get into trouble, if not already the order is.
@James
Maybe read it again. The requirements relate to an extension based on marriage.
Hence no requirement for compulsory insurance.
Best regards,
Charly
Indeed, I agreed with your story and research regarding healthcare costs. So this was completely unnecessary and misleading to me in your case. Ronny corrected you and he wrote that there is no conversion in your case, but an extension on a different basis (marriage). Many of the old conditions remain the same, but your relationship will be subject to additional requirements. Your OA visa simply remains the basis for everything that is required after it. This way we ultimately create the clarity that is needed. By the way, thank you for your input, because these types of topics can be quite worrying. Good luck with the renewal application.
Dear,
Reading all this, I do have a few reservations.
I understand that every country can/may allow people from another country to grant access.
But when I read what ridiculous rules come with it even if you live in Thaialnd, I wonder if the additional information that is required is legal.
Can a country to which you emigrate, where you are married, have built and the family support, require additional information such as having a certain amount in your bank in the country of origin?
When I read it like this I have decided never to take the step to permanent residence in Thailand, this dream is broken.
If you have your partner there, if necessary, take her to another country, where you will not be treated as a criminal. There are still places where it is good. For me, Thailand is no longer necessary, then they immediately have what they want, a “farang-free” country.
Soooo, sorry everyone,
Dear Joseph,
Where do you get information from, that in order to get or extend a visa (extension of stay) in Thailand, you are obliged to “have a certain amount in your bank in the country of origin”?
That is completely new to me after 11 years of living in Thailand.
Thai Immigration wants to make sure that someone can provide for his / her maintenance. You can prove this in 2 ways:
1. you can prove that you have a certain balance in your THAI bank account or
2. you have a minimum monthly income. To be demonstrated by means of an income support letter from the embassy.
I am also curious how you think Immigration can / wants to check what you have for bank balance abroad.
Teun,
Sorry, idd people only speak of a Thai bank account.
Excuse me, Joseph