Schengen visa question: Visa rejection and a visa agency
Dear Rob,
I want to have my girlfriend, who I have known for over a year and a half now and with whom I video call every day, come to the Netherlands for the full 90 days so that we can travel through Europe/Spain together in my camper.
In all my naivety I thought I would arrange a visa for her and I met all the conditions. Which means that I have the guarantee for accommodation and maintenance with stamp and all (Amsterdam), the mandatory health insurance, a return ticket from KLM, my income statement, passport, pension overview and an accompanying letter explaining why she wants to come to the Netherlands. This was submitted by an intermediary she found at the embassy for an amount of around 150 euros.
We received a rejection and the only reason was "the purpose and circumstances of the intended stay have not been sufficiently demonstrated"
Justifications:
The purpose and circumstances of the intended stay have not been sufficiently demonstrated. The relationship between you and the referent you specified has not been made plausible or proven by means of objective evidence. Given the fact that the reason for the visit you have stated is precisely related to the stated relationship with the sponsor, the purpose of the trip and the conditions of your stay have not been sufficiently demonstrated or made plausible.
In short, it was rejected because my relationship to her was not proven.
My question is of course, what can I do to prove that we have had an "internet relationship" for more than a year and a half and that it would be very nice if we could convert that into physical contact. I am no longer able to fly due to illness since Covid, so the only option is for her to come here, at least once a year for three months.
I have now written a second covering letter where I describe in more detail the purpose of her trip and why I cannot go to Thailand, but I am afraid that this will also be insufficient, because the relationship between us is still not proven.
Now she has hired a new intermediary called KT visa and travel and the contact person is Katie, but she charges more than 350 euros for that application. When I call VFS Global they assure me that I would not have to pay more than around 50 euros.
Do you know a reliable and good intermediary in Bangkok who can help her with that application and what do you think it may cost?
I would like to hear from you about the maze I have ended up in and whether you see any possibilities to demonstrate that we have been in a relationship for a year and a half.
Regards,
Richard
-
Evidence of first contact showing that contact was made a year and a half ago. Consider a printout of a chat conversation showing the time and date or a screenshot showing the date and time. Or of course e-mail messages, telephone conversations and the like with visible time and date.
-
Some interim pieces of evidence to show that you have kept in touch regularly.
-
Possibly some images showing you together (video chat) during this period.
-
Letter contact between you: letters have a postal stamp with a date on it.
-
Financial transactions between you, perhaps on occasion you have given her some money as support or a gift. Data can also be seen there.
-
Any other form of “proof that you have been in contact for 1,5 years” that you can think of.
-
And indeed a good covering letter stating how and when you met each other, why you were not (or were not) able to travel to Thailand to meet her there in person. Can a doctor possibly substantiate this so that you can objectively demonstrate that you have a travel restriction and that she should therefore come to you for a first meeting?
-
Since you don't really know each other yet, I hope you realize that, in the worst case scenario, the meeting could be disappointing for one or both of you. It would therefore seem logical to me that the first meeting and stay is not immediately for the maximum of 90 days, but for a much shorter period (several weeks). After all, if the meeting came to nothing, what then? Make sure your travel plans also take this into account. Also provide arguments as to why she will definitely return to Thailand on time (and the decision official will also want to see proof of this: a job, care for family or other concrete socio-economic ties).
This in itself is not an exceptional story, but one of many. You can hardly regard an internet relationship as something stable. Isn't it an option to visit your girlfriend in Thailand, spend the necessary time there and collect sufficient evidence of this? As Rob says, I fear that your future applications may also fall flat. Schengen is very strict about giving those super dangerous Buddhists a visa, even to come on holiday.
Dear Koen, up to about 10% (less in most years) of applications for a visa to the Netherlands are rejected. This is often due to insufficient demonstration of the socio-economic connection with Thailand. A guarantee does not alter this. A guarantee only shows that someone in the Netherlands will cover the costs, it does not prove that the Thai person has ties and therefore reasons to return to Thailand on time. You have to show that there are good reasons to return: a job, care for family, house, tree, animal.
Faith has nothing to do with this, nor is it asked for because it is in no way a relevant factor. By the way, it is countries such as Morocco and Turkey where up to 50% of applications to the Netherlands are rejected. And for the same reasons: socio-economic. Someone who already has family here, and perhaps even a larger circle of family and friends, theoretically increases the chance that someone could reside/work in the Netherlands illegally. They therefore have an even greater challenge in demonstrating that their ties with their home country (work, family, etc.) are stronger than those with the Netherlands.
A guarantee form will then be of no use. If it does have an influence, it is rather to your disadvantage: you show that you need a sponsor instead of that you are wealthy enough to pay for travel and accommodation and therefore that you are less socio-economically strong than someone with a better job/bank account . But in short, it comes down to this: show reasons why you will return in time. It's that simple/difficult.
I have almost the same story. Only I visited her/traveled with her in Thailand for 1 month in January last year and 2 months in September and October. I also wanted to show her Europe for 2 months with the camper,
All paperwork such as guarantees, tickets, health insurance, extensive application form with motivation (full story about our relationship) submitted. But the visa application was rejected because:
“Adequate justification was not given for the purpose and circumstances of the intended stay. There is insufficient evidence that you have significant social and/or economic ties with your country of origin or the country where you normally reside. As a result, your prompt return after the end of your intended stay cannot be guaranteed.
Since it has not been demonstrated or established to a reasonable degree of credibility that you have a regular and substantial income in your country of origin/habitual residence to support yourself, it is not considered sufficiently plausible that you will return to your country of origin without delay will return, partly due to the local or general situation in the country where you live and/or your weak social ties there.” Why then all those guarantees in the Netherlands?
Dear Richard
You are one of many with the same problem. Through Stichting Goed and the national ombudsman, I have now reached the point where I want to go to court about this stuff. Of course it's of no use to you now. In any case, I would take the trouble to report it to Stichting Goed and the National Ombudsman. I am also a Dutch person with a Thai wife and child of 9 years old, studying in Thailand for 10 years without any visa problems and from February 2023 2 times visa refused, same reason as you. 2 friends of mine exactly the same. What you should definitely do is report whatever is stated in the letter to the IND. We have to answer a bunch of ridiculous questions. Then wait for the procedure and if they do not respond, report them in default and if they do not respond, you can file an official complaint with foreign affairs. I have now gone through this process and therefore they will have to do something.
As mentioned above, there is no point in hiring an agency or lawyer at all. What I did the first time outside of the above. I made an improper visit to the Dutch embassy, I was helped there and I applied again via VFS and yes I received a visa.
Needed a visa the same year, again rejected, called the embassy and national ombudsman. Didn't have to go to Bangkok, but sent my passport and received my passport and visa back 3 days later. This is also the reason I want to research foreign affairs. There's clearly something wrong there. So anyone who has been denied a visa, take the time to involve the ombudsman and Stichting Goed. They can also better indicate what you need to add in your situation.
Succes
Greetings Jan
Rori, you cannot apply for a visa at the embassy, and Netherlandsworldwide is not an intermediary, but simply the BuZa information site.
You must always apply for a Schengen short-stay visa via VFS.
And an objection procedure with the IND can be useful, but can take up to a year at the moment.
By the way, as already said, 90 days the first time is quite a risk, not only because if you have not met each other yet, you have no idea whether it will click in reality, but also because 90 days is proof of not too much dependence on the country. After all, someone who works doesn't just have 90 days of leave, and if you have to take care of someone, 90 days is a lot to get away from.
By the way, I think that if you want to get to know each other better, a tour is not the wisest thing to do, but it is smarter to just live together as much as possible.
The objection procedure has a term that can be extended. After that, the IND must pay with gradually higher daily amounts. In my case, approval was only given when the highest daily amounts came into effect. Notice of default helps a bit if it takes a long time.
Dear Rob, compliments for your response. It can also be said, right?
You are welcome. The number of questions I receive is actually not too bad, hopefully this is partly because the answer can already be found in the Schengen file and Thai partner Immigration File. I really need to update both again this year.
is it a lottery then??
I met my girlfriend on the internet at the beginning of March 2023.
visited her for 2023 weeks in May 4; in August/Sept. another 5 weeks.
submitted a visa application to VFS-Global at the beginning of January this year.
12 days later the passport was returned, complete with visa stamp.
and what have they submitted, other than what is required?
an extensive invitation letter from myself and also a letter from my girlfriend.
photos with the Thai stamps in my passport, that I have been here several times.
photos of me with my girlfriend and her children and grandchildren.
proof of divorce, name change and ownership of my girlfriend's home.
In short, we did not submit that much special information, but apparently it was sufficient.
No Fred, it's not a lottery, even though the rejections over the last few years have been a bit higher (around 10%) than when the decision was still made in Asia (around 5% with a short period even less than that). A good application does not have to be a package of a hundred pages, although the complexity of course also depends on your own situation. If this is fairly straightforward: we met each other in Thailand, we have known each other for a while, our partner has a bond (work, family or the like) then putting together an application is a lot easier.
What would help: that readers occasionally submit their own experiences (good and bad). Others (and I) can learn lessons from this. You can submit experiences/stories via the contact form here on the blog (at the very top right). And anyone who finds that boring can submit a nice story about how they enjoyed their stay in the Netherlands.
As Rob says, it is not a lottery at all, it is a matter of submitting a conclusive file that, above all, offers the necessary guarantee that the person concerned will actually return after her holiday. An application to come immediately for 3 months is suspicious enough to refuse a visa. After all, there is no Thai who can/is allowed to be absent from her employer for 3 months. My girlfriend, now my wife, had a letter from her employer stating that she could take leave and certainly had to return to work on the scheduled day. Such a letter is a better guarantee than something you write yourself. My tip: meet in Thailand first and apply for a visa for a shorter holiday, for example 3-4 weeks
Dear Fred,
I do think it is important that you can prove that you have met your girlfriend several times in Thailand. This is certainly missing from this story.
I have been to Thailand (if I'm not mistaken) 4 times before I applied for a 3-month Schengen visa for her. This was granted without any problems. A year later we got married.
An internet relationship may be seen as questionable.
Fred, you have been there twice and she has her own home and children and grandchildren, so she has a strong bond with Thailand. That counts. A contract and permission from an employer or training institute can also help to demonstrate the bond. I have never used visa agencies myself. Not yet for Thailand or for the Philippines. VFS is also just a pass-through hatch for which too much has to be paid.
New update whether or not already known, but still worth mentioning:
For Belgium, your 3Bis applies:
New target amount from December 1, 2023
According to a new DVZ policy, the guarantor must have income the amount of which is at least equal to 120% of the living wage amount (category of cohabiting with family expenses). The target amount is currently 2.048,53 euros net per month.
Greetings,
René
Last year my Thai wife and I went on holiday to Thailand. On the way back we wanted to take my sister-in-law (who was also here 10 years ago) back with us for 3 months. I took all the documents with me and made an appointment for her at VFS in Bangkok. After 3 weeks we were rejected on the grounds that the reason for the visit, the family bond and the guarantee that she would return was not clear.
Back in the Netherlands, I understand that VFS uses an automated system that issues positive or negative advice. I then collected as many documents as possible to refute their objections and filed an objection with the IND. You must submit this objection within 14 days after rejection. Then they will take it easy for 12 weeks. When these were over I gave them notice of default. They received a huge questionnaire with all kinds of nonsensical questions. I filled this out a bit and sent it back with an angry letter. The result was that she still got her visa and is now sitting here opposite me.
Dear Frans, VFS is nothing more than a commercial paper pusher hired by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. They take the application, check whether it is complete based on the checklist that BuZa has provided to them (I have already pointed out that this checklist does not cover all scenarios here and at BuZa: does a Thai come across with accommodation provided by a Dutch person but If the stay is based on the Thai traveler's own funds, then the checklist does not cover that scenario...). The application goes through the scanner, then ends up in The Hague where officials who cover the whole world look at it and who therefore do not really have country-specific knowledge about Thailand. That is already a disadvantage compared to when applications were still processed in Bangkok (and later in Kuala Lumpur), if you ask me.
The large number of requests means that officials have little time, minutes, to process a request. So BuZa does indeed use a computer system to make an initial selection at risk level. This way, people can get through “low Ricco” requests more quickly and have more time to review “high risk” requests. More has been written about this elsewhere on this blog. And yes, after an objection you will receive an additional questionnaire with many questions that should cover all kinds of scenarios and therefore also all kinds of questions that are not relevant (nonsensical) to you. Focus mainly on the questions that cover your situation well and convince the IND official that everything is fine.
Dear Rob
I think most people get tired of the problems they encounter. I don't know where you get your number of 5 and 10% from. I have been approached by Stichting Goed en Radar as there have been many complaints. When I look at my situation and that of our friends club, your numbers really don't make sense. So I hand in the same thing for 10 years and suddenly out of nowhere the visa is refused and even better 3 months later again. With the help of the national ombudsman and especially the Dutch embassy, I managed to obtain a visa on time both times. I am really no exception so this story really cannot be justified. I'm a Dutch person just like you, with a foreign partner and a 9-year-old daughter, so tell me why they reject a visa. Furthermore, why the embassy keeps helping me to make amends and BZ has not dared to give an answer yet as to what I did wrong. Furthermore, I know from the national ombudsman and from Stichting Goed and from Radar that your numbers are certainly not correct and I hope that everyone will take the time to help them put an end to this situation.
Greetings Jan
Dear Jan, my figures come from the database of the embassies themselves, which are obliged to keep track of how many applications they receive, how many visas they issue, refuse, what type of visa, and so on. EU Home Affairs publishes these figures every spring and most of the years I have written pieces about them here on the blog under the title "Issuing Schengen visas in Thailand under scrutiny (2018)"
Due to Covid, I have temporarily put this on hold because due to entry bans and personnel changes at BuZa, the figures in the period 2020-2022 cannot really be called normal. The ones from 2023 will be released soon and then I will write another piece. My last piece is up to and including 2018 and is here:
https://www.thailandblog.nl/visum-kort-verblijf/afgifte-van-schengenvisums-in-thailand-onder-de-loep-2018/
There you can see that for Thai applications the number was initially around 5-6%, then dropped towards 1-2 and rose to 7-8-9%. After that, it increased enormously to 57,4% in 2020. 30% in 2021 and more again, but not yet completely back to normal, in 2022 to 16% rejections on 8387 applications.
That is still almost twice as high as normal for 2022, so the more negative stories are undoubtedly correct. But that doesn't make Indian stories of “it's a lottery” and “it rejects a lot” true. The higher number of rejections than was normal before Covid, which will certainly have to do with the fact that BuZa now handles everything in The Hague instead of Bangkok/Kuala Lumpur, has too few civil servants available, and so on. I am therefore very curious about the figures for 2023. If they are more towards normal again, I expect them to be below 10%. If we are still above that, there is clearly a problem at Buza.
And for those who want to browse through the figures for all application countries in the world and with classification per Member State and so on over the years, see EU Home Affairs. The link from a few years ago no longer works, manual navigation is easiest: go to the European Union page > EU Home Affairs > Policies > Schengen borders and visas > Visa Policy > Statistics. It has remained unchanged for 15 years.
Currently the link to the visa statistics page is:
https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/visa-policy/statistics-short-stay-visas-issued-schengen-states_en
I expect figures for 2023 sometime in April and then I will certainly do some typing again. Depending on how (un)remarkable the figures are after contact with embassies/BuZa and then it just depends on how quickly they respond...
You suggest that VFS issues advice - of course that is not the case. VFS plays no role in the decision-making procedure other than that of document collector.
Dear,
I have read your question and Rob V's answer.
I had also first drawn up a visa application for my then girlfriend for a stay of 3 months. This was rejected and I then set up one for a 2 week stay which was accepted.
The reason is in line with what Rob V answered.
My then girlfriend then traveled from Udon Thani to Bangkok to personally submit the visa applications at the embassy. I believe this can also help in granting the visa, because it gives the embassy the opportunity to have a conversation with your friend and hear her side of the story. That was also the case in 2008 with my then girlfriend, when there was no VFS Global yet. My wife also personally went to the embassy from Khon Kaen after an appointment via VFS Global.
As Rob V already mentioned in his answer, I would recommend spending most of the time with you. In Belgium, the local police officer will come to your home after your girlfriend's arrival to check whether she is actually at your home. That was the case in 2008 (my first Thai girlfriend) and also in 2012 (my wife to whom I am still happily married). I don't know what it is like in the Netherlands.
You also mentioned that - if I understood correctly - you would drive your camper to Spain for 3 months. Personally, I take it that you are treating her to a tourist trip through Europe and therefore have no intention of showing your living environment. The latter is essential for every relationship. I think it is important that a first visit is mainly about getting to know your life and your family and friends. Why go straight to Spain, when the Netherlands also has so many beautiful places. Know that in the Netherlands she will also open her eyes and say “wow”, if only because it is completely different from Thailand. This is also perfectly possible with your camper.
Rob V also pointed out that it could be disappointing. I completely agree with that. I have also personally contacted several ladies via a dating site to meet in Thailand. With a few of them we had very good and nice communication via email. But when we met, the atmosphere was completely different: we walked next to each other and I had no inspiration to start a conversation. The atmosphere was very friendly. Afterwards we didn't hear from each other anymore.
Dear Richard, take it step by step. Save your tour to Spain for next time. Get to know each other well in real daily life before you travel. Maybe you love camping, while your girlfriend already dreams of visits to famous and busy tourist attractions and the selfies that go with them...
Good luck!
Regards,
Daniel M.
Dear Daniël, unfortunately applications for a Dutch visa are processed in The Hague. Now the employee (m/f) at the embassy counter was not the one who had to assess the application, but the lines were still shorter. And yes, the counter employee at the embassy could provide a comment for the decision official in the office behind. Such a personal impression (which can be to your advantage or disadvantage) is no longer there. An external employee (VFS Global for the Netherlands, Belgium has been working with TLS Contact for a few years) takes the papers and these people have no role or further knowledge regarding the assessment of visa applications.
The chance that someone will still be asked to come to the Dutch embassy for an explanation is therefore nil. Most likely is simply an award or rejection, with perhaps a request to send a document back if a little something is missing (but if something important is missing then it is easier to reject, after all the applicant was "incomplete" - think of the checklist - ).
Length of stay, that just has to make sense. Most people can't get 90 days off. Two weeks' holiday is much more likely. So yes, it can certainly help. But if you can explain in the application why a few weeks or the full 90 days makes no difference in terms of obligations, but you cannot stay away much longer than 90 days due to social/economic obligations (job, care for someone, etc.) you can just so good for 90 days go. The story as a whole must be logical and convincing to the civil servant. A perfect overall picture.
What exactly is a logical story? Well…That's a little different for everyone. And try to put that clearly (short and powerful) on paper and substantiate it. Things will sometimes go wrong there due to misunderstandings, for example if someone thinks that a guarantee covers almost all risks and therefore overlooks the need to demonstrate reasons for a timely return.
Dear, I find it difficult to assume that in 2024 you will receive a Schengen visa for an internet relationship as described. If the guarantor CANNOT travel to Thailand, what are the chances that the Thai lady will return?...unless the meeting does not meet expectations...but then there is still a chance that the lady will go into hiding and end up in the massage business . And in my opinion, there is no stable, serious relationship here, as people at DVZ want to see. People at DVZ are not from yesterday either.
Just another new government affair.
If you have seen the “all you need” program in recent years, you have also noticed that many had problems. Families didn't get it done, but that program did.!
Strange to say the least.
2006, I could just invite someone from Indonesia, no problem at all. Never physically met and never been there.
People now find it necessary to work with algorithms and probably with AI input, which makes things even more difficult. A shortage of staff could also have been the problem, but it's more of a nonsense, I think. They had promised improvement, but not. Just continue on existing lines.
It seems that people say that the Dutch are criminals and therefore harass the Dutch.
In 2007 we did see a general pardon for 27000 asylum seekers. This was done out of powerlessness. https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/982161/duizenden-asielzoekers-fraudeerden-voor-generaal-pardon
And now even more problems, but it is the Dutch who bring slaves from other countries.
It seems clear to me how the government works towards the Dutch. That is the problem.
How can you compare 2006 with 2024? If we are honest with ourselves, half of both B and NL are crying out for a migration stop. Whether it concerns Africans or Asians, all migration is now becoming stricter throughout Europe, and fortunately so.
Unfortunately I have a similar experience. At that time I thought I had really handed in everything. We have known each other for over 7 years. Demonstrable via email messages, tickets have been available since 2016. These were trips to Cambodia, Myanmar and Nepal. Naturally, we met the following documents such as guarantee, health insurance, motivational support letters from both of us, more than sufficient financial resources, proof of sufficient income, ticket. My girlfriend has a shop, her own house, a car. I was also able to demonstrate that I supported her during the Covid period because the store was closed. We had also translated into English; the title deed of the house, lease agreement for the shop, joint photos of the house, shop and holidays, bank statements translated into English from Bangkok Bank that she has 700.000 baht. All this was not enough, Motivation Ned. Embassy was; there were doubts as to whether she would return to Thailand and a relationship had not been sufficiently proven. All this took place in 2023. A second attempt with the same submitted documents succeeded. On the second attempt, only our letters of support were more detailed. It was a pretty frustrating experience.
I was just thinking, if you are planning and have the time to go to Spain, why not just follow the EU route, then you can possibly... get your partner into Europe visa-free. I successfully did this myself years ago for a family member and hst is completely legal.
The topic starter does not have a partner but a girlfriend. This is an essential difference for following the EU route.
The major problem with the rejection of his visa is that he cannot clearly demonstrate a relationship between the two. This is even requested for the EU route.
Dear,
This is a solution for wives or family members of EU nationals.
The questioner has a girlfriend and he cannot clearly prove their relationship. The EU route is therefore not the simple solution as you make it out to be.
In my opinion, this option applies to family members, and I cannot imagine that visa issuing authorities would consider someone you have never seen in person as 'family'...
For the EU route one must be family, in short, married. So that is not an option here. And under these special EU rules you also obtain a short-stay visa, but for free.
If the application for a tourist visa is unsuccessful, have your girlfriend take the integration exam and then she can go to the Netherlands with an MVV visa. This visa is almost never rejected.
My girlfriend studied with Richard van http://www.nederlandslerenbangkok.com
Good luck with your tourist visa application.
This is the TEV (Entry and Residence Procedure), of which the MVV (Schengen type D entry visa) is a part. However, for this immigration for residence with a partner, one must prove to the IND that they have a "durable and exclusive relationship" (or married, not being a marriage of convenience, therefore also a sustainable relationship). This argument therefore does not apply if proving the relationship is precisely the stumbling point.