Sinsot, pay to marry your great love
Imagine you fall in love with a beautiful Thai woman. In this story we call her Lek. After a few romantic vacations and having met your future in-laws in Isaan, you take the plunge and ask her wedding. Nice you will think, but then the thunder starts. You have to negotiate with her parents about a Sinsot. A what…? Sinsot, what is that again? Ehhh, imagine her parents kidnapped her and you have to buy her freedom, something like that. Do you understand?
If you want to approach it a bit more romantically, you could call it a dowry. If you think you're making a good turn with a camel, three goats, two sheep and six chickens, you're out of luck. It is not possible to make your prospective cleaners happy with this. No, they want to see hard currency. Dollars, euros or gold is fine. Thai baht may also.
Why all this? Simple it's a Thai tradition. And since most traditions cost money, but this tradition brings in money, the Thai like to keep it alive.
Buy female?
You have now asked your handsome and much younger Lek if there is no other way, because 'buying' your future wife from her parents is also not a good story with which you can arrive at your friends in Zierikzee. But even dear Lek stands her ground, if you want to lift her over the threshold, you first have to be 'lifted' yourself. Fortunately, tasty Lek says to you, there is negotiable and if you do it a bit smart you can talk some Bahtjes off. Aha, that will cheer you up because you have easily pinged off 500 euros from that Ford Fiesta plus a free small service and a set of floor mats.
What a hassle!
Still, you are not completely convinced and you ask Lek to explain it to you in detail. Because you have so many questions. Like what about deposit and warranty? Suppose Lek doesn't like it or after a few years already looks just like your future mother-in-law, will you get anything back from that Sinsot?
The sensual Lek snuggles up close to you again and starts to explain in Thai English, “love you long time” what the Sinsot thing means.
Status may cost something
Paying a Sinsot, Lek says, is an old Thai tradition in which the man gives money to the bride's parents. During the ceremony, the money is neatly displayed so that family, friends, neighbors and fellow villagers can see that you have the financial means to take good care of your wife. That is good for the status of your new wife and also for the status of your in-laws. And because status is very important in Thailand Lek doesn't want you to come up with your Zeeland frugality.
"But how much should I pay then?" you try not to look desperate and you casually ask if there is also a Thai DSB bank nearby. You already had that Ford Fiesta on installment, so Lek can use it, you think to yourself. Meanwhile, Lek cheerfully continues: “It is a matter of making an offer. The family makes an opening bid and the husband makes a counteroffer and so on. And that's not all, the destination of the money after the wedding ceremony also needs to be negotiated
The sky clears up as Lek also tells you that usually most of the Sinsot will be returned after the ceremony. So actually it is a big charade you think to yourself, in Thailand you can expect anything.
Walking ATM machine
Unfortunately for you, Lek also causes dark clouds when she says there are no rules about exactly what and how much is returned. If you are unlucky and your in-laws also want to experience what it is like to have a relationship with a “Walking ATM machine”, you will only get a friendly Wai in return. Dad can then have a large supply again Mekhong and Lao Khao, little brother buys a new moped, Ma buys a nice “yellow” necklace and she uses the remaining Sinsot pennies to play cards with friends.
So far the story of the in love farang and Lek.
The tradition of the Sinsot also has another side. It shows that the husband is able to negotiate and take care of his wife. A successful negotiation also means that the man can work with his new family. It is seen as an important start to a long and happy marriage. A failed Sinsot negotiation can lead to loss of face and bitterness and will have negative consequences for the relationship with the in-laws.
Do Thai men also have to pay a Sinsot?
While many western men think that the Sinsot is just a way to get some money out of a farang's pocket, that's not correct.
The tradition surrounding the Sinsot is slowly fading, more and more Thai men do not pay Sinsot.
Nevertheless, there are also enough Thai men who do pay a considerable amount to marry a woman. They even save for years or borrow money to pay for the Sinsot. Here too, the rules, as so often in Thailand, are not clear. Some Thai men pay and others don't.
The height of the Sinsot
You guessed it, there are no clear rules about the height of the Sinsot either. It's just a matter of negotiation. The origin, background and circumstances of the woman play an important role in this. A well-educated, beautiful young woman from a wealthy family can win the prize. A Sinsot of two million baht is no exception.
Substantial amounts are sometimes also asked for women from the lower class, especially if they are beautiful and still virgins. It even happens that Thai women themselves save for a Sinsot. This is to prevent her from being unable to marry her great love because he has too little money.
If you were to speak of an average, then an amount of up to 100.000 baht is the norm. About half of this goes back to the man after the ceremony.
Factors that determine the value of a woman are:
- education
- CAREER
- lineage
- virginity
- appearance
- divorced or not
- whether or not children
It will not happen that a Thai man will pay a Sinsot for a bargirl. A bargirl has lost all status and respect. But Thai also have "butter on their heads" and if she has earned a lot of money or hooked a farang, she can regain some respect.
Do Western men have to pay a Sinsot?
You could say, why does the man have to adapt to a Thai tradition and why not the woman to the Western tradition?
The best thing is to look for a compromise that is acceptable to all parties. In practice, a farang is more inclined to adapt to Thai tradition than the other way around. If you are willing to pay a Sinsot, the negotiation will have an important function. Disappointments and loss of face are then not a good start to your marriage.
However, you must be realistic and dare to take a stand. If your soon-to-be has a background in the sex industry, a high Sinsot is absolutely ridiculous. You then run the risk of losing all respect with the Thai people around you and being laughed at behind your back. Unfortunately that is the harsh reality.
How the negotiations about a Sinsot go also gives you a good insight into the intentions of your "new" family. Reasonable demands, waiving a Sinsot or returning most of it is a positive sign. Your in-laws are then not blindly after your money and the daughter's happiness is central.
Even if it is a traditionally minded family that is willing to negotiate a Sinsot, this does not mean that they are vultures by definition. In particular, it is about how smoothly the negotiations go and whether they set reasonable demands. You can therefore assume that they are civilized people.
On the other hand, you have to be really wary if they demand unreasonable amounts and don't want to negotiate. When they want to put extra weight on the negotiations by coming up with arguments that other men are willing to pay and you should look at it differently, then it's wrong. It's probably the start of a relationship with a greedy in-law who will try to squeeze you like a lemon.
You are then faced with a diabolical dilemma. The role of the family can seriously hinder your marital happiness. Don't count on her taking sides with you. The family ties and loyalty to her parents is so great that you don't interfere. A dubious in-laws almost always means the downfall of many mixed marriages in Thailand.
If you feel that your fiancé's family is only interested in your money, it might be better not to get involved and look elsewhere for your happiness.
Okay, full story. I paid 25 baht as sinsod 30.000 years ago. Then about the meaning of sinsod, with a few Thai words, sorry moderator
I used to think it was สิ้นโสด. Sin soot. Sin with a falling tone (end) and soot (bachelor) with a low tone, meaning 'end of single life'. Funny.
But it is สินสอด, sin soht, sin with a rising tone (money, property) and soht, also with a low tone and a long -oh- sound as in 'god'. And that means 'putting in', together 'putting money in'. And that's what happens.
Isn't this a somewhat outdated story, one of those myths that are all too often - and too gladly - perpetuated in farang circles?
This has never even been discussed with me, nor with many other 'mixed' couples in my circle of acquaintances.
No Cornelis, this is not a myth you might like.
And your statement that sinsot has NEVER been discussed with many other mixed couples, sorry but I don't believe that. I have a completely different experience, all my Farang friends were always asked for a sinsot. Some of them didn't pay one, others did (so did I).
Soon my Thai cousin will marry his Thai girlfriend. He is fully saving to be able to contribute to his future parents-in-law. All this to satisfy the so-called 'myth'.
They are certainly not myths, Cornelis.
The tradition of sinsot is certainly there, but it does not alter the fact that high ratings are given to ladies who do not qualify for this.
It ranges from hundreds of thousands of Baht to zero.
Most foreigners enter into a relationship with a second-hand person with luggage.
Have already been married and had children from that relationship. Sorry for losing face, handing in that bite afterwards, including the gold.
And so you can estimate the value of the Sinsot amount.
If you want to remain very friendly, most foreigners can get by with a few tens of thousands of baht and then they are understanding and the Fam. in their pocket.
With 'modern' parents it is free and you are immediately mother's favorite.
That won't work for a young, virginal-looking lady with a handful of diplomas.
Her mother gave me a Thai medallion when she saw the Dutch wedding papers of a monk from Nakhon Pathom with a speech that I could live to be a hundred.
Seen them 20 times in 5 years.
I have heard that the expectation that future parents-in-law have of a Sinsod is also a reimbursement of the training costs they have invested in their daughter.
We see it as a duty that we offer our children, whom we have ultimately brought into the world ourselves, that we also offer them everything possible for education.
After this training, we hope that they have a good and above all independent future, where they can at least pay for their own lives.
In Thailand, where many parents don't have it that wide, and often have to lie crooked that they can offer their daughter a good education at all, the expectation that they will also benefit from this investment later on is perhaps a completely different one.
A future bridegroom could benefit from a Sinsod without any compensation, now that their investment, in silent themselves, has included.
In our culture where our wealth is completely different, no one usually has to rely on financial help from their daughter later on, so I think the Sinsod thought will have something to do with that, but maybe someone has a different explanation for that. I FOLLOW!!!!
PS. I got lucky and only had to give the Sinsod in front of the partygoers, and got it all back later. (Now I only help when I see that it is necessary, but fortunately nobody does begging or asking.
That the parents of a daughter should receive a reimbursement of the training costs or compensation for the upbringing in the form of a sǐnsò:t is of course a bogus argument. For why does this not apply to a son? Do sons educate and educate themselves?
This custom stems from feudal times when women were more or less commodities. On the other hand: I have noticed that Thailand still has one foot in feudalism.
Although I had no intention of doing so, I too was persuaded 9 years ago to pay a sǐnsò:t of ฿ 50k – the word pay alone – for my former girlfriend of 40 with a son of 12 at an unofficial wedding ceremony (' marry before buddha'). I never saw a sataang of that money again.
I will absolutely not do that anymore, because I am for equality of man and woman and a dowry/sǐnsò:t therefore does not fit in with that.
If they do insist on paying sǐnsò:t, they will probably be shocked, because I'm sure my education and upbringing cost more than that of most Thais. So my bride would most likely have to compensate my parents.
And 'THE' Thai culture/tradition does not exist.
Years ago I bought the book Thailand Fever (https://thailandfever.com/). There is also a lot written about the sinsod. It also states, among other things, that the price depends on the age of the daughter, whether or not she has been married (and has already paid a sinsod) and whether she has children. The more a daughter is "consumed", the lower the sinsod.
But there are Thai families who like to take advantage of the foreign man's ignorance and demand a high sinsod even at the fourth marriage of their daughter.
I gave 20.000 baht at the time. Perhaps little, but my wife fell into the category: divorced, two children and no longer the youngest, this completely with the acceptance of my own wife. When the father first demanded 200.000 baht, she had not spoken to him for a year!
I'm glad to read here that I'm not the only one who paid a sinsod at the time. If I am to believe some people I should be ashamed of being tricked by my Thai family.
Sinsod is still a common tradition and is far from extinct. I hold Thai culture in high esteem. I respect the standards and values of the Thai people. That's also why my wife has a lot of respect for me. If you keep turning your back on everything that concerns Thai culture, then you should not come and live in Thailand or marry a Thai lady.
I am also in contact with a woman in Chiang Mai.
Works for a company that sells motorcycle parts during the day but doesn't know what she does at night. Has 3 children, has parents, she is sweet and, importantly, does not ask for money. Now I want to go back to her next year to get to know her better, I no longer work so it can be for a longer period of time and/or several times a year.
But sinsot? May the parents forget.
Karl
In all the more than 25 years that I know Thailand and deal with Thai people, I have become far from financial situations. Because what happened? Some examples: in the first year, my wife sent me a request from a sister to borrow 100K baht to start a business. That money went to other things and I then demanded and received that amount back. During a holiday a year later, the whole family went to Rayong for a weekend in vans and I had to come along, because it became clear to me: the bill would end up on my plate. I thought that was rather underhanded and I didn't go along. When we decided that my future wife would definitely come to the Netherlands, the family wanted us to get married and there had to be a sinsod. I declined. I did, however, give the parents some money on their own initiative because for years she did this monthly from her wages. We then forwarded a small amount twice a year. I also refused a later request from another sister to help pay for her eldest son's participation in an international school. Gradually it became clear to the family that I could not be used to grant unfulfilled wishes, and the relationship with them has only improved. I never cared about any veiled criticism on their part and always told my wife I didn't want a relationship based on the contents of my wallet. We now live in Chiangmai, a beautiful house with accessories, my wife worked hard for it in the Netherlands, everyone is welcome, but we determine how people live there, because we have always upheld that principle: live and let live with as much as possible. minimal interference by and from others. Finally, my daughter married a rich boy. I never got it into my head for him or his parents to deposit any amount into my account.
I have never paid sinsod nor was it ever talked about. My wife was officially divorced from a Thai man. That marriage, at the strong insistence of her parents, was not a success.
It is not surprising in our case that the sinsod has never been discussed. We moved in together in my apartment and a few years later officially but secretly married. Not to get around the sinsod but for other reasons.
But what is a normal amount to pay as a Sinsod?
It's in the article, read it.
Nothing. A farang is already the main prize. We got married in the Netherlands. My wife also thinks it's enough. With a farang things are different. I have been clear about this from the start. But we do help occasionally because we have the money for it.
Isn't paying a sinsod also a form of help?
I paid my sinsod once, the amount was nicely negotiated. The clear agreement was that we would not provide any further financial support. This was accepted without a murmur. After many years we still have the perfect relationship.
Of course you can help. As much and as long as you want. We did for a while, and we still support some Thai people financially, and not just in-laws. hang that sinsod idea on principle, and make it clear to the in-laws that you do not want to impose conventions. I have the firm idea that many farang men do not dare to say 'no' and rationalize the payment of a sinsod. For example, by saying that it is a form of helping.
I did pay for a nice sinsod and I don't regret it. If you marry a Thai lady you know that you respect THEIR traditions and customs best.
The Thai population has a lot more traditions than just the sinsod. If you keep resisting that, then this is a lack of respect for their cultural values.
Sinsod, by the way, has nothing to do with the Farang. This is also still a common practice among non-mixed marriages in Thailand. And if you look a little further than Thailand alone, dowries and related customs are still commonplace in many other countries.
I sometimes wonder if some Farang among us wouldn't be better off staying away from Thailand. Just about everything is questioned, even worse, some look down on the Thai in general. And when money comes up they are too stingy to spend a penny. But to show off a beautiful young lady there they are in the front row.
My impression is that it is not (anymore) common practice in Thailand. And why should you conform to anything you think—or are led to believe—is a tradition? Isn't there such a thing as an own identity that you can hope that Thai also respect?
So the solution is to ignore the identity of your partner. We live in a selfish society, I have my personal customs and my Thai wife has hers.
If you want to go down this road then I don't give the chance of success of your marriage much success. Stubbornly clinging to your own identity is not very polite. I regularly see this attitude in many Farang (many feel supreme because they are financially well off). Then they are surprised that their lady walks around frustrated with the known consequences.
You draw a ridiculous conclusion from my words. Read them again, I would advise you.
None of that has anything to do with it. An own identity does not stand or fall with sinsod. That is what some farang men make of it. I have never paid sinsod, have a very happy marriage, in-laws and I treat each other with respect. They know that they cannot have any financial expectations towards me. But if that expectation is met from the start, don't be surprised if your wife joins and talks with family. When asked whether sinsod is still “valid”, she will answer with a resounding “yes”.
As Cornelis also writes, sinsod is outdated and not applicable or just to pluck the foreigner. I know many Thais and many Thai couples and I really have to look for those who are officially married, only when a government position or good job in the business world is involved then one officially marries and the sinsod comes to feed. Sinsod for man No. 2 to number so much is impossible for Thais so why a foreigner should pay, they abuse ignorance because the Thais really do not pay for a 2nd marriage, let alone if there are already children because then it is exceptional that a Thai man enters into a relationship, afraid that he may pay for someone else's child(ren).
Sinsod is what the foreigner is talked into. And an official marriage is becoming increasingly rare in Thailand, people just live together without formalities such as sinsod. Immerse yourself in Thai society and you will see this more and more, especially in the big cities.
The discussion is about paying a sinsod if you want to marry your loved one.
The fact that the number of official marriages is declining is irrelevant here. This is not only the trend in Thailand but also in our own country.
I just consulted my Thai wife. She claims that a sinsod is still well established.
By the way, you're contradicting yourself. On the one hand, suppose that a sinsod is obsolete. A little later you say that many couples no longer want to get married officially without ceremony like a sinsod.
then it is exceptional that a Thai man enters into a relationship, afraid that he may pay for someone else's child(ren)" (quote)
These are mostly men who have children with a previous wife and do not pay for them. (because they weren't officially married). But it is the same men (from your previous comment) who carry the groceries, walk behind the pram and wash the dishes????? Do you believe it yourself?
Immerse yourself in Thai society.
Now you're mixing things up, my earlier text, taken out of context by you, is about men's participation in family life. Here it's about entering into relationships and sinsod. Don't confuse readers.
But answer my question: are they the same men or not?
Responsible/modern when it comes to housework and taking care of children but irresponsible/old-fashioned and not taking care of children your wife already has?
Can't chat dear Chris. Perhaps you are talking about another group of men namely 1 group who participate faithfully and responsibly in the family. And another group that strives for independence and modernity and wants nothing to do with sinsod; perhaps also reason that they actively help and make their financial contribution during the marriage and then do not want to pay extra for what, yes for what actually. And you see the latter in some responses because why should not the woman have to pay a sinsod because often the man is the one who brings in the most money for the family. Paying extra for the woman again, well many thank you for that. It should also be added that many young people, perhaps up to the age of around 30 - 40 years, have no money at all or little and do not feel like going into debt for this and prefer to finance a car, for example. So a financial reason not to pay sinsod.
Can only speak about my own environment (sakon Nakhon) and here sinsot is the most normal thing in the world. That this is already outdated what is claimed by some here is therefore pertinently not true. It may well be that in some regions this has been diluted, but it still exists. Then it sounds rather arrogant to me personally to say that other readers should immerse themselves in Thai society.
Yes, dear Raymond, the social development of society starts in the larger cities and only later does the country estates get their turn. Until 50 years ago, it was customary in the Netherlands for a woman to collect the trousseau and furnishing of the house herself during her younger years, which she needed when she got married. Well, both, marriage and eviction, are no longer necessary and you can see that habits are changing, also in Thailand. How many unmarried couples with children I come across here in Thailand, along with other forms of relationships, I myself am a good example of this.
Everyone understands that things change over time, but you (Ger-Korat) stated in your comment that sinsot is an outdated business that is only used to pluck the foreigner and is no longer applicable for the rest. Those are your own words. To this I only report that sinsot is still very common in my area and with family spread across Thailand. In addition, you also mention that others should learn more about Thai society, which comes across as rather pedantic. Maybe a tip for yourself?
That's right Ger,
there was even a savings project for towels and the like.
I can't think of the name at the moment, but I know that many young women have participated in this.
I'm glad I'm not the only one with this point of view.
I presume that Ger-Korat, seeing how active he is on our blog, should have informed himself a bit about the matter before making such statements. It's not because you don't want or have to pay Sinsod yourself that this is the general rule.
Such practices do not simply 'disappear'. And a Farang who slavishly coughs up a Sinsod just out of ignorance, I don't believe in that at all.
Well Jacques, to each his life and my life revolves around Thai and I don't speak to foreigners who live in Thailand but only Thai. As indicated in my 1st response, I already know quite a few Thais and have 30 years of Thailand experience and I do not consult 1 Thai wife because I do not have one, but I do have many other Thais, day in and day out. That's why my glasses are a bit Thai colored and I think I know a little more about how daily reality works.
I was not asked anything and my wife has completed higher studies, has no children, is certainly not ugly and earns more if I have no results
In 10 years, no one from the family has had to help and I have already seen many marriages and it rarely happens with sin or it is because I do not live in or the north and it is not that my family is rich, they used to be rice farmers
It is an old tradition that is still very much alive in Thailand.
Aside from this tradition, showing off money and possessions with great ostentation is very popular anyway.
Every day on Thai TV it is widely reported how much money a certain person has or has spent.
If the sinsod would only be a compensation to the parents, why should it be so widely reported to the visitors.
The money is literally displayed on the table, so that everyone can be amazed at the large amount of money.
In India, the wife pays the sinsod to the husband's family.
After all, the man will ensure that the wife and children will have a good life.
There is also something to be said for that.
Apart from adapting to Thai traditions, you could also say: the woman marries a European man, so let her and the family follow European traditions.
Everyone has the choice of how to deal with this.
Thailand is a big country and many traditions from north to south.
From more modern than 'home' to super traditional.
In other words, it can be between town and village.
I myself married in the Netherlands with my Thai wife who had already been removed from the Sinsod list.
Widow and children and just past forty in those days.
Wouldn't have had to get married for me, but living well together was just a little too modern for her.
Apart from suggestions, especially in the beginning, that somewhere in the family a small contribution was required, the need for money was never forced upon me.
The children, on the other hand, had that impression, although the lion's share was already able to earn it themselves.
They also understand better of a city than of a village here.
Be reasonable I think, getting married here means opening your purse for that wedding.
Explaining that your [future] wife is going to have a better life if with a Thai could be enlightening or being guided by her.
Unfortunately, many foreigners sometimes forget that it is cheaper to live here, but not for free either.
A good photocopier works wonders and you hand in gold the next day.
That your new father-in-law invites people to Thailand that you have never seen and will never see again, oh who cares [5555]
If those foreigners were smart enough not to marry or enter into permanent relationships, life here would not be free at all, but still very affordable.
But yes, it is apparently given to few to resist that call to settle down. Anyone who succeeds in doing so is relieved of most of the troubles you can encounter here and in this country mainly enjoys the benefits but not the burdens.
Research in many countries shows that people in long-term relationships are healthier, happier, feel less lonely and live longer.
And people who divorce are also much happier right after the divorce.
It's just what you choose. It's probably worth a try.
And why shouldn't you be able to enjoy the pleasures and not the burdens when you are married or in a relationship?
I do it already and find Thailand very affordable.
My wife and I got married in the Netherlands more than 7 years ago. We are not married in Thailand because we live in the Netherlands and have no plans to emigrate to Thailand. Getting married in Thailand therefore has no added value, it would be a sin for the bhune and it makes no difference to the relationship. My wife and I are in complete agreement on that. When my wife at the time (when we were in Thailand) that we were getting married, my then future mother-in-law started to look enamored and I don't speak Thai but I clearly heard the word "Sinsot". She had not understood that we would get married in the Netherlands and not in Thailand, my wife left it that way. In our culture we would react differently if your daughter told you you were getting married, but here the money was Sinsot. That didn't happen for a while, partly because of that reaction. Furthermore, everyone must know for themselves how to deal with it, do not hear any advice or rejection from me.
It still exists and is subject to a number of conditions mentioned in the article.
I don't see it disappearing quickly with the wealthy, they like to show off.
The money is indeed often returned immediately, with us missing a note of 1000. That's how you get caught again,
Our son, the groom insisted on searching what I had written down the numbers. I have advised against.
However, a police officer present had wanted to take on half of this.
Fortunately, we never saw this in-laws again.
Writing down numbers of the Sin Soht banknotes in advance, people want to search … because 1000 Baht is missing and they feel caught.
Must have been a fun party. Ambience assured.
Man, man, man…. You read quite a lot on TB anyway.
Indeed Ronny, I am sometimes amazed at what you read here.
I think the worst thing is that those who are absolutely against the tradition of a sinsod want to label it as THEIR truth. They insist that the sinsod custom is almost extinct and is only intended to take the money from the farang.
Should I then feel sorry for all our compatriots who have neatly followed Thai tradition by paying the requested Sinsod? I think the latter are sometimes in the majority.
Anyway, what I've learned here in the meantime is that, when it comes to money, some people go very far to get their right. Apparently money remains a sensitive issue.
Invoking your own principles is also the easiest way to avoid something and you don't have to make excuses. "That's against my principles" and you're done.
When it comes to mixed Thai marriages, I often read quite a few “I” positions.
I have decided, my rules, as I determine, my principles, my money therefore my laws….
And I thought when you get married you are 2.
Someone wrote “No Sin Soht. A farang is already the main prize.”
I sometimes wonder if that is the case….
Now they do. It actually leaves me cold what someone else's "principles" are. I don't have to live with it.
Sin Soht extinct? Certainly not here in Kanchanaburi.
A few months ago, the boy next door got married. 90 Baht Sin Soht.
First marriage for both and no children (yet). Both in their mid-30s. She teaches, he's in the military.
Normally they have a bright future ahead.
The Sin Soht's money has been returned to the in-laws.
Just like with me in 2004 when I got married. My wife's first marriage and also mine. No children.
And of course a wedding ceremony is a show that is performed. What is wrong with that?
I even did 2. Redone in Thailand and in Belgium. So what?
To give an example.
In 2004 the Euro money had only been introduced for 2 years and therefore all quite new. That gave her sisters the idea to spread out a Sin Soht in Euros on a round gold-coloured tray. With different values 500, 200, 100 etc…. because that looked better.
Did I do. What do I care if that makes them happy.
Everything was returned neatly after the ceremony. Were not even wrinkled…
However, I didn't check the numbers of the bills because I forgot to write them down 😉
Dear Ronnie,
Beautiful and justified statements!
It actually doesn't matter to me what someone else's “principles” are. I don't have to live with it.
The sad thing is that the ladies have to live with it.
I am not surprised that many of them regret their marriage to their Farang after a while.
As I said in an earlier response:
“Someone wrote “No Sin Soht. A farang is already the main prize.”
In certain cases I sometimes wonder whether that is the case…”
I find it hilarious that certain readers among us are categorically AGAINST the Sinsod tradition, while on the other hand they would spend tens of thousands of euros in their own country on a wedding with all the pomp and circumstance.
I got married (again) in Thailand and our wedding was dirt cheap compared to a party in my home country. Even with the requested Sinsod included, I only paid a fraction of what a European wedding would cost. And don't worry, the guests ate well and partied.
giving your wife a better future and paying a sinot is no way
Maybe you will have the best future ever. To be well cared for in your old age by a loving younger wife.
Or would you rather have them hide you away in a nursing home full of whining peers? I know what I prefer (and I'm happy to pay a sinsot for it).
Indeed Koen, in many cases we give our spouse a better life, but you get a lot in return.
Marriage is not just about taking. Alfons' response above speaks volumes. I wonder if he dares to say his strong statement to his lady.
If you want to put yourself in the spotlight again and again by stating that you are better off financially and keep looking down on your wife, then in the end there will not be much left of real love and affection.
We can rub our hands that our cradle was in a prosperous country. I am also proud that my Thai wife has a better life thanks to me, but there are no demands in return.
If you can't stand it that your spouse 'benefits' from your own 'wealth', then it is better to stay alone. There have been plenty of cases where the farang lives wildly and his wife is left destitute when he dies.
6 years ago I first married my Thai wife in the Netherlands. 1,5 months later we had a Buddhist wedding in TH. Sinsot was 300.000 bath, the entire family and acquaintances were impressed. Beautiful day with bells and whistles. In the evening a separate party was held in a luxury hotel for invited guests. (With an explanation that an extra gift is not desired). All in all a wonderful day. By the way, I got the full sinsot back.
For all our shouters who don't like the sinsot tradition, I might have another proposal.
Let that sinsot depend on the 'condition' of the Farang. The older and uglier the more they can pay to marry a beautiful younger woman.
I read here that the more the woman is 'consumed', the less they want to pay. Still strong statements. Maybe look around to see which Farang a woman is sometimes married to. Many have been divorced several times and have children, but they don't like a divorced lady. It gives me chills to read something like that.
Cornelis, I have missed your shivers for years. And you don't just have those shivers; Fortunately, there are also men who expect more from life than a handsome, young face and good in bed.
But THE man is like that, and not just deep in his heart as an unfulfilled desire. They are our genes and it is the history of a paternalistic, patronizing world. And a group is more than happy to show that.
'Their only right is the kitchen sink' was the case for centuries; yes, and carrying a big belly. That is still the case with many men, including Thai men. And Thai women, who in many cases have a chronically empty wallet, start hunting for it. And make those men happy with 'handsome man' no matter what he looks like. Do you blame them?
Groupie, pit pussy, 'wonderful females' someone said in this blog. Does that show respect? No, the only thing that speaks of it is the proverb that those men adhere to: 'He who spreads his legs spreads conviviality'.
Well, and then they complain when their relationship ends and the money and the house are gone.... Own fault, big bump!
Smart comment Cornelis!
I sometimes also ask myself “how in God's name did that farang get his wife”. They certainly aren't together for his blue eyes. But who knows, she was blind to his sinsot 😉
I didn't pay Sinsod. I was 52, she was 46. She didn't ask about it, but when I talked about it she wanted it. She had no demand in terms of amount. After two weeks of insistence, she spoke about 200.000 Bath. I was shocked by this amount, but she said it was “up to you”. She also said her parents might return it the same day.
I told her that I understood the tradition and told her that this happened to me/us like buying off your wife.
“I don't want to buy you off, I want to marry you. You are not a commodity.”
I told her I wanted her to marry me for love and not for money.
It took us several weeks to reach an agreement: I would not pay Sinsod. We got married in 2017.
I have to admit that I would have paid Sinsod if this had been a stumbling block.
After all the Christmas Day festivities, I left the hustle and bustle behind for a while and, because of our emigration, occasionally read the Thailand blog in preparation. Having read the entire Sinsod story, I can only agree with what Tambon says on September 30, 2022 at 04:28 AM: “Of course you can help. As much and for as long as you want. (…..) I firmly believe that many farang men do not dare to say 'no' and rationalize paying a sinsod. For example, by saying that it is a form of helping.”
Perhaps the time has come for all those who are so adamantly against sinsot to start their own movement, '#OnlyMe', in addition to '#MeToo'.
These same people are first in line to condemn foreigners in their own country because they pose a threat to our identity. But the norms and values of the Thai are not important.
And we will place all this under the heading that everyone is allowed to have their own opinion.
Too bad.
Bob, you're generalizing now. And you respond as if you personally know the people who respond to this.
Like everything, Sinsot has multiple sides. Tradition mainly, and compensation for the 'investment' in your child, but there is also a modern Thai side that does not care about sinsot itself but only wants to avoid losing face in the community. Is the first half poor and the second rich? It sometimes seems a bit like that.
I think you should figure this out together with your future partner and her/his family. Reclaiming land, call it that. And then think carefully about what you are going to do if the family DOES want sinsot and is not going to give it back. Then you get the difficult choice between your feelings for her/him and your wallet. And then I would like to see what people choose...
He says “for all those”… where is he generalizing?
I do understand his position to some extent. Many (including many not...) do not care about Thai traditions, they only think of themselves and do not take their spouse into account. You can clearly read that in a number of responses.
Me me me, you know it, right?
I would like to see all those confident farang to what extent their lady is really happy, let alone if they were still together.
That comment about a #Onlyme makes no sense at all and kills the discussion. Those who do not want to pay sinsod have their arguments. Those who do pay do so in the knowledge that they will receive (partially) back the amount paid. Those who call sinsod tradition are not convincing. Traditions are changeable. A very bad tradition is that parents send their daughters away, even if it is out of poverty. Morally reprehensible. You read quite how grumpy they can react when it turns out that the farang husband does not have an ATM with him. It is also strange to argue that parents should have their investment in education repaid. I don't think so, because most Isan women have little or no education. I stick with what @Tambon noted earlier: the man does not dare to parry the demand for money and then he comes up with all kinds of (false) reasons to justify his behavior. Called rationalization in psychology. A defense mechanism.
It is actually against my will to answer this, but it is stronger than myself.
It is the biggest nonsense that people assume that after paying a sinsot they would get it back. If you say this, then you know nothing about Thailand, their traditions and customs. A sinsot is negotiated, with your future wife as an intermediary. Once an agreement has been reached, the amount will be handed over in full to the parents. No more and no less. This is the NORMAL state of affairs.
You won't hear me tell you that the sinsot is never given back afterwards, but this is done in silence so as not to lose face. But this is the exception rather than the rule.
What I find even more striking is that you keep harping on the fact that the people who have duly paid their sinsot and are defending this here, do this to justify their behavior. I think a lot of bloggers here are scratching their heads right now, myself included.
Then turn your reasoning around. The anti-sinsot group is also going crazy here to highlight THEIR right. I am open to everyone's opinion, but I have my own vision, but I will not always repeat myself by saying that others are wrong. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion or not?
And traditions, no, you can't just change them. Something that has existed for many years and is still well established cannot be swept aside.
If you are so confident in your position, please show me some facts. Opinions have little value, hard numbers interest me more.
What do you mean, are you supposed to get the amount of a Sinsod back from your parents-in-law? This is the first I'm hearing of this.
I'll have a word with my wife later. Actually don't believe that.
Theo, no, don't get it back. But it is regularly agreed that the sinsot is shown to the wedding guests and then returned to the groom. The 'donation' is only for the family stage. It is not given and received back, but simply loaned out for show.
My wife has two sons. The youngest is married and the eldest is now 32 and had met a Thai woman a year or two ago, who dropped the word Sinsod upon the first meeting with us. She knew his mother's husband was a Farang, so she already saw $$ signs in the sky. I believe it was 100.000 Baht and whether we would just cough it up.
So that was the last time my wife spoke to her for a very long time. The son also stopped talking to mother for a while. But that's all over now. The “love” is over and he is single again. So no Sinsod.
He now works in Korea. My wife got a scare this week when he started talking about a friend and about Sinsod…. but he was just joking…. my wife was terrified. Not again!!!
In any case, my wife has already made it clear: we do not pay Sinsod for anyone. He has to arrange that himself. And he would be stupid if he did.
Sinsot is paid for a 'virgin'. So not for someone who has already been married or already has children. Then just for show and you get it back later.
Poor people pay about 50.000. But normally 150.000 baht. In higher circles, about 400.000 to millions.
We only got married in the Netherlands, so I never paid a sinsot, but I had already bought a moped and a hand tractor for them, so maybe they had enough confidence in me.
Because that's what it is, marriages often fail here and then the woman is not left with empty pockets. Stick behind the door.
But if the in-laws are really poor, they may also want to make the rich farang pay. Especially if it's a kneeling one. Because many people here in Thailand are really dirt poor. And I can't blame them.
Fewer and fewer people are poor in Thailand. In contrast to BE/NL where more and more people are approaching or falling below the poverty line. According to the World Bank, Thailand has made great leaps forward. Which does not mean that there are people who are (dirt) poor. But in Thailand, appearances can be quite deceiving. Many “poor” people own large tracts of land. An article recently appeared on Thailandblog about people who work in Bangkok and voluntarily live in slums while they are very prosperous at home. https://www.adb.org/where-we-work/thailand/poverty#:~:text=Poverty%20Data%3A%20Thailand&text=In%20Thailand%2C%206.3%25%20of%20the,died%20before%20their%205th%20birthday.
Increasingly?
'In 2015, according to the Central Planning Bureau (CPB), 6,3% of people lived in poverty. In 2023, this number will have dropped to 4,8%. It is expected that it will remain the same in 2024'
https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/actueel/nieuws/2023/12/19/voortgang-aanpak-geldzorgen-armoede-en-schulden#:~:text=toch%20niet%20rondkomen.”-,Armoedecijfers,het%20in%202024%20gelijk%20blijft.