(No) Attestation de Vita
I am retired, so I receive state pension from the SVB and also a pension from several pension funds. This is because in my time the pensions were not yet linked when changing employers.
Not a problem in itself, I regularly visit a very nice (because lady) notary, who quickly helps me to check, stamp and sign the Attestation de Vita desired by the funds. For the AOW I have a trip to the SSO office in Laem Chabang every year.
At the beginning of November I received a letter from the most important pension fund for me with the summary message: we have not received an Attestation de Vita from you, so the pension payment has been stopped.
Of course I had sent that Attestation de Vita, but apparently I had not received it, while I never saw their reminder letter from a week or two afterwards. That is possible, although in all these years I cannot think of a single complaint about the post in Thailand. Good, quickly made contact and sent a scanned Attestation de Vita. I finally received the pension benefit three weeks later than usual.
It led me to say something about the rather anachronistic procedure of the Attestation de Vita, which is used not only by my pension fund, but also by others.
I wrote:
“We live in a digital world and you still use the (sometimes) unreliable way of stationery. Surely it should be easy for you to figure out a way for “being alive” to be handled by computer, just as I now send you the forms scanned by E-mail.
I suggest that you bring up the following points within your organization, which could simplify the procedure and perhaps even save costs.
- Complete the Attestation de Vita by e-mail, possibly using a password.
- I also receive a few other pension benefits, including from the ABP. The SVB also asks me every year for a sign of life for the AOW. The ABP and another private pension fund use the SVB to determine annually whether I am still alive. You can undoubtedly join them and use the services of the SVB. In this way you are able to simplify the now time-consuming and not always reliable state of affairs and to save on your own costs.”
Of course I received a standard answer that my letter would be passed on to the relevant department and I have no illusions that anything will be done with it.
But there's something else bothering me about this whole thing. The Pension Regulations of my pension fund state that my pension payment will be terminated upon my death. One sentence, short, clear and powerful. The absence – for all sorts of possible reasons – of an Attestation de Vita is not proof that someone has died. I myself think that a pension fund should make more effort than just writing a reminder letter to determine whether someone is still entitled to a pension.
The question then is, where does the burden of proof lie? The Attestation de Vita clause is not part of the pension regulations, but is also used by other pension funds. I have checked some of them on the Internet for this purpose. The question is therefore whether termination of the benefit is legally valid. For a lady in Rotterdam, the AOW and other benefits were simply paid for ten years after her death, and after one month of not hearing from me, the benefits were stopped. I don't think either is correct!
a question for the writer: I also have a pension from ABP and struggle with that statement every year. Not so far from here (loei,isaan) there is an office where people with state pension go to sign that statement. I also went there and really friendly people there, but no stamp and signature because according to them they are only allowed to do that with papers that say SVB. No one around here wants to sign any further, so that leaves a ride to BKK (550 km). How do I approach this?
I think the cheapest way is by bus.
Really nice dry comment Tooske, I'm glad it got through the moderation, a little humor and perspective is not a bad thing at all.
Regards,
Lex K.
Dear Dirk, know your problem. We experienced the same thing with my wife's company pension. First also went to the SSO where the SVB is signed. Also zero on request! From there forwarded to the town hall. Stood at 3 counters, but no one signed there either. Forwarded to Immigrations. There is no more signing for this kind of thing. In the end we went to the Tourist Police on our own initiative. They know the forms and are only too happy to sign. “Finally something to do again!”, beamed from their faces. Papers forwarded to pension fund and they agreed. So I would say: On to the tourist police!
Incidentally, later the papers of a friend of mine were simply signed here at the town hall. So you just have to be at the right desk opposite the right official.
Good luck!!
It is true that the SSO can only sign SVB papers.
But, you can just have your statement signed and stamped at the Amphur.
That is, if you are registered with the Thai equivalent of the GBA
And even without that I brought people in Khon Kaen to an official who signed and stamped without being registered in Khon Kaen.
Alternatives?
The police, the tourist police, a court, the office of the Public Prosecutor…..
I have also previously encountered that problem with signing the proof of being alive, I have my pension from the SVB and this was no problem, but I still have two small pensions, from PMT and SFB, which no authority wanted to sign,
and the SFB immediately stopped transferring when it was not received quickly enough, indicated this problem by letter, and now both funds agree to a copy of the SVB statement.
So saves a lot of hassle, and problem solved.
I do have some understanding for the procedure, as it only aims to stop payment in the event of death. However, some “modernization” is desired, regarding password….., a concerned candidate deceased (lugubrious word actually) can transfer the necessary data to his remaining partner…, (hence) .
However, there is strange behavior, for example, as a Belgian. pensioner abroad, you must annually have the form that is sent to you around your birthday completed by an official government ...(?) (civil servants' pension abroad even 6 monthly), but this form is drawn up in one of the two national languages ...., now I wonder which foreign government has mastered our Dutch language to understand and complete this? Simply speaking in English would go a long way...
and would Thai Immigration offer the possibility to receive yet another fee…, and save us a trip to the embassy? although I can't complain from BE Embassy BKK, my registration after moving from Belgium, and my registration for Belgian. elections coming up, if possible via Scan / email, but with all ID & Documents included
Received my life certificate in November to have it completed is written in FOUR languages three that
in Belgium and also in English as an extra? There is only 1 pension fund so I don't know why
that is different for you last year no English was added but now it is?
I have never had a need for one, but I did get one from the RVP website in advance to know how to do it, so that probably depends on it (old version?), good that they are coming up to date with the modern times.
Gringo,
If they accept a scanned copy by email this time, can't you just email them another copy next year?
I had a similar problem with my bank in the Netherlands. I had to prove that I was still alive and I was asked (address in Thailand) to attend one of the bank's offices to confirm that I was still alive. The fact that I still make payments through this bank is not proof enough.
I have sent as much evidence as possible to the bank in the Netherlands that I am still alive (my employment contract, my rental contract, my blood donor card, my Social Security card, my annual statement from the tax authorities here, the address of my facebook page ). Apparently that was enough for the bank.
I also informed them by telephone that with modern technology it should not be that difficult to determine with a simple Skype conversation (with a few varying verification questions such as date of birth, last address in the Netherlands, social security number) whether the person they seeing (moving) on their computer screen is really the right person. They thought it was a nice idea, so we heard nothing more about it.
I am Belgian, retired soldier and indeed I have to send the life certificate twice a year, January and July. The form is also in English and I can scan the form and email it. I always get a receipt. So I'm not complaining at all.
I draw a pension from the same fund as you, CDVU, with my proof of life, I have problems here in Ayutthaya, first of all the police did not want to stamp this, why, because they are all too stupid to read English,
Then to the Immi, who do know, read and speak English, I sat there for 3 hours before I got a stamp on the document, of the highest rank, got a reprimand that next time I should not come with this shit
Friendly welcome isn't it????
Now I send the document to the embassy, the next day a phone call that they hear me and three days with EMS my document
By e-mailing, because that is sufficient for CDVU, I have peace of mind for 6 months
Don't talk to me about the civil service in Th
Forgot to say, that officer had to have another 500 baht under the table
I've stamped dozens of proofs of life in my career, no problem, but they just don't understand here
And that in 2013, with the Internet, Skype, etc.
Shouldn't it be an incredibly cool trick to occasionally appear on Skype with your own photo + scan passport at the pension fund?
Not much of a challenge to verify a living and moving face with a copy of your passport, ask some current questions (what is going on in Bangkok now, for example, and some personal questions from the pensioner's life?), and.. living proof has been provided.
But hey, NL officials... Sincere Thuiszorg in the Achterhoek also wanted to develop a system that allowed home care recipients to contact the center via the internet and TV and vice versa. A kind of Skype. Euro 25 million further but stopped. It was too difficult to copy a wheel that had existed and worked for years.
It is very annoying that pension funds or the SVB simply pull the plug and do not transfer the money that people are entitled to. This can be problematic, especially if you are short on cash. Control is necessary and I think that the pension funds and the SVB should work together to become more customer friendly. Indonesia can serve as an example, where the SVB checks the AOW and war benefits recipients by going to the people. Make an appointment properly and if there are many people who need to be checked, you can also set up a consultation hour where people can report in their own place of residence. It is of course easier when it can all be done digitally. In the Netherlands you can lie dead in your house for 10 years because you are registered in the population register and you can still receive your AOW. If you live abroad, your benefits/pension will be withdrawn in no time and you will have to prove that you are in good faith. I think legal inequality.
Indeed a hassle that I have had problems with several times and that makes a lot of quality time an unpleasant experience. Problems arose both on the receiving side of the form (via a postal address in the Netherlands), but certainly on the sending side from here in Thailand to the SVB.
An important point for me was that the SVB stated that I was responsible for the correct arrival of the ATV form by post.
After stopping benefits and pension several times and having to accept various arrogant letters, I have now, after 5 to 6 years of struggling, reasonably sorted things out.
I also once proposed to the SVB to change the ADV procedure, resulting in stubborn bureaucratic attitudes. The annual time around the birthday also makes you a “sitting duck”. I have now made an agreement that I may use the blank (scanned) form from the previous year to provide an ATV (and non-income statement from partner) to the SSO for a much longer period of time than indicated on the form . Easier to plan local trips and easier to combine with a possible other visit to Bangkok.
Sending itself via the SSO has also caused problems. Several times, after stamping at SSO, I scanned the ADV and sent it via the DIGID secured sending option on the SVB site. That was accepted.
The form will be scanned at my postal address and sent as an email attachment)
Now that I live in Chiang Mai it has become easier. There it neatly fills in everything in the SSO and signs everything and issues an official statement of receipt. (the first few times I scanned it and sent it by email to SVB (like: "I'm done with it") but it's so reliable now that I'm refraining from it now.
After consultation with them, a private pension fund (I only have one) now also settles for a self-made ADV that I have signed. Until now, usually at the embassy in Bangkok (this can be done at the same time as the income statement that is required for the extension of the retirement Visa). I send it by registered mail and send my pension fund a copy of the scanned statement and the "receipt" of the post office on which the tracking number is stated, as an email attachment. (like: “Look, I did it, if it goes wrong it's not my fault”)
I have asked my pension fund to also offer an electronic way to send the ATV, they are still looking into that.
It seems terrible to me for those who have multiple pensions and what a waste of all that time that becomes much more precious with every year as a retiree.
I received the application forms for the state pension by email yesterday. There are TWO different empathy proofs included. Absolutely crazy for words.
Not to mention the fact that the same form has to be filled in twice.
Dear Grongo,
In 2012, I did not receive a pension from my main pension fund in July and August, because they did not receive a declaration of “being alive” from me either.
I have mentioned you in the same terms as you. But they were inexorable. It had to go as they wished. They did, however, shorten the form on my advice and made it bilingual (Ned + Eng). It may only be authenticated by the embassy or municipality.
Question to all: Do you have the pension paid out to a Dutch or a Thai bank account? And does that affect the requirement of an attestation de vitae?
@ Jo Beerkens
Pension directly from pension fund to Thai Euro account (requirement of the tax authorities according to me)
AOW to an account with a bank in the Netherlands.
The ADV requirement only exists if you are not registered in the Netherlands, otherwise the notification of death via the population register is automatic. Not (directly) related to the receiving bank account.
@ Jan Dekker, Aren't you confused with an ADV and an income statement? That is done every year.
A copy of the form signed and stamped by SSO seems to me to be sufficient proof of being alive. We are talking about a competent authority that can also carry out interim checks. If in doubt about the authenticity of the form, a pension fund can simply contact the SVB. This will not be so easy with a statement signed by a random official or anyone else. But this is undoubtedly too simplistic a solution.
Hello Revan,
That's what I suggested to my pension fund. But Ah Mea "no" was the answer.
I know someone who scanned some police, tourist police and Amphur stamps.
And then prints those stamps, slightly modified each time, on his forms.
Of course highly odious, but as his pension is arranged from one of the countries of the EU, I can understand his behavior.
You know Gringo. Not so long ago, an (elderly) woman was found in the Netherlands who had been dead in the house for 10 years. All the while, her benefits have continued and been deposited into her account. As a result, her rent and energy bill were collected without any problems. No sign of life has ever been requested by any authority. That's weird don't you think?
In any case, I have learned a lot about this problem. So far once a year the statement has been provided for the UWV (appeal) but from next year it will be a lot more difficult, I have noticed.
What is SSO actually, never heard of it.
@ Jan Dekker SSO = Social Security Office. Comparable to Social Affairs in the Netherlands.
How do you say that in Thai? I have to explain it to my wife somehow. Do you think that is also present in Chiangrai?
No doubt they have that in Chiang Rai too. The forms sent by SVB contain a telephone number in Bangkok where you can inquire about the most recent branch of the SSO in the place where you live. Changes quite often.
Please sir: see here a link to the english version of SSO TH. http://www.sso.go.th/whtmlpr/eng/contactus. Including address and telephone number in Chiangrai and elsewhere, under the tab: contact us! Look for yourself next time, dear Jan!
Dear Soi, this blog is there to inform each other. Jan looks it up by asking here, just answering without your postscript would look much nicer, if people are no longer allowed to ask this. If it bothers you don't answer, simple as that. More reading pleasure.
It is also a hopeless way of proving that one is alive, those NL life certificates.
I also receive a Danish pension and a Life Certificate every year.
which must be filled in by a witness with name, address and signature, in my case by the Thai neighbor who can speak, read and write English, send it and Kees is done.
Look what NL is making a mess of again.
It is also true that if one dies, it is passed on to the relevant Embassy via the police, which then passes it on to the relevant country, so all that nonsense with making it difficult (especially SVB) to provide proof of being alive is bad to understand.
If, according to Theo S, the SVB accepts that a death can be reported via the police, then it actually seems strange to me that the SVB and the pension funds do not accept that you cannot report via local channels that you are alive. Perhaps it is a good idea for the Dutch and Belgian associations in Thailand to put their heads together and produce amendment proposals that they can submit to their embassy/pension funds. Because if you look at current practice, the SVB and pension funds are customer unfriendly.
@ Renee Martin
Theo doesn't say that at all and I don't think it is.
A good proposal, but I think that the Netherlands should also involve the Thai government in this. BV the notification of being alive and income statement via SSO is based on a treaty between Thailand and the Netherlands, and a whole group of Thai SSO officials flew to the Netherlands for a full week to learn how to use that form in The Hague. must stamp and send.
You can get a life certificate free of charge at the Belgian embassy.
I would find it strange if this was not possible at the Dutch embassy.
see link
http://www.diplomatie.be/bangkok/default.asp?id=28&mnu=28&ACT=5&content=85
You do not have to pay at the Dutch embassy if you have a form yourself, if you ask them for a form of being alive, you do have to pay for it.
And you can easily make such a life certificate yourself with the relevant data for whatever pension fund it is needed for. I have done several times for my pension fund. The Embassy signs for free and the pension fund accepts it.
But you have to pay for the trip to Bangkok yourself.
Dear people,
A long time ago I also had to deal with the Attestatie de Vita in my work. I know from then that a signature on a newspaper of that day was sufficient if there was no A. de V. statement. I have no idea whether people still accept this today, it's just a suggestion.
I too was not paid by my company pension, because I had not sent the attestation de vitat on time, but I had never received the forms. I immediately asked if Achmea would send all mail by e=mail.
I also state on the calendar when the life certificate must be submitted again and if I have SVB or Achmea on the phone I ask the employee whether
proof of life must be submitted.
The postal service in Bang Lamung district of Pattaya does not work 100%, unlike Udon Thani where I lived for a few years.
Gringo, could you please give me the name and address of this nice notary, it's time to make a will, but I don't know any notary in Pattaya or Jomtien.
Thanx
unfortunately wrong in the name, for which apologies surname not Poyts, but POTS