Question of the week: Why do Thai people tolerate the multitude of mutual deadly violence?
Last week Thailandblog published an article about the large numbers of weapons in this country. Read: www.thailandblog.nl/background/geweld-en-firearms-thailand
The article, with source material, attempts to explain the how and why of all those weapons. However, a spokesman from that source material believed that tolerating the immense gun ownership, and inherently the hundreds of gun homicides per year, has to do with karma, with acceptance and resignation. There would be an attitude towards life consisting of the idea: “when you die, you die”. Well, that's right. If you die, you die. But the word "when" can also mean "when," and then it matters a lot whether your life is ended by some miscreant, because of some emotional affect, a business dispute or the risk of 'lose face'. And besides 'when', it is always a sign of civilization if one includes the 'how' of that dying in any contemplation. “We take death calmly as part of life,” the spokesman added to his statement. Wonderful, but it should not be used as an excuse to trivialize someone's deadly behavior. And that happens quite often here in the country.
Many kinds of tolerated violence
If you have been in Thailand for several years like me, you see and hear and experience a lot. Yet there is a chance that surprise and bewilderment will nevertheless strike you. In the morning, when you turn on the TV for the Thai news, you are immediately confronted with numerous traffic accidents that count many unnecessary but fatal victims, domestic quarrels with a fatal outcome often pass by, and many personal violent conflicts are shown. Thai traffic, domestic violence and the many conflicts have a high calculated homicide rate.
Which means that conscious risk of the termination of the life of others is taken. A pickup with the back loaded with construction workers that zigzags at high speed through the busy traffic, assaults, rapes and strangulations of young and old, young people from vocational training who sometimes chase each other to death. It is very striking that many of these deadly events in the everyday personal lives of Thai people take place as if it were simply part of life. There is little to no public protest or public outcry. Apparently those events are normal to do. Occasionally you see a reconstruction of a crime on TV, where the perpetrator escapes their attention surrounded by police and the assembled crowd gets the chance to harass, punch and vent their anger. There is no more anger about the many daily crimes. After which the same kind of crime takes place the next day in a different place in almost the same kind of circumstances. Which is not to say that there is not a lot of sadness and mourning in Thai families.
Accepted use of weaponry
There is no fear of using heavy force with the aid of weaponry. For example, some time ago it was shown on TV that: (1) a motorist attacked a moped driver with a machete. The moped rider had protested after the motorist had knocked over his moped while parking. Apparently reason for the motorist to nip that protest against him in the bud. The entire incident was filmed by bystanders and shown on TV. You can also do it with bare hands. A few days earlier than the moped incident mentioned above, the Thaivisa.com site reported that: (2) a nurse had strangled her 6-year-old stepson on her way home from work in a hospital in the morning, jealous as she was for the attention that kid received from his father-her partner.
Such tragic events take place all over the world, and are of course not exceptional and specific to Thailand. But a day earlier, extensive video footage was broadcast in all media of someone who: (3) stabbed his wife, mother of his 3 children, to death with a knife in a shopping mall, after she had ended the relationship and he thought she had done this because she had met someone else. And a day later after that incident with that boy someone who: (4) had shot his girlfriend at close range during an argument after she had announced that she wanted to end the relationship. She made it out, thankfully, alive.
We are mostly talking about adults
Just a few events of serious personal incidents in half a week. My Thai girlfriend and her acquaintances explain that Thai men have a very short fuse, are very jealous, and are spoiled by their mothers. I do not want to dismiss all incidents with this explanation, because we are talking about adults, not children. First of all, let us assume that adults worldwide in peacetime are responsible, act consciously and are not guided by drives and instincts. In other words, if this statement by Thai people concerns their own immature Thai men, then what was the matter with that nurse? After all a woman? And why do Thai mothers continue to raise their Thai sons to become immature Thai men?
The incidents mentioned in part 1 took place a few weeks ago. It didn't stop there. A few days later: (5) A 23-year-old Thai girl is blackmailed for her drug use by an older Thai person, a man in his 40s. She wants an end to the blackmail and calls a 28-year-old Thai acquaintance for help. Both men get into a fight, knives are drawn and eventually stab each other to death.
Then: September 16 in the Bangkok Post- (6) a group of men in Nakhon si Thammarat attack a group of 6 youths, line them up, shoot 2 boys of 19 years old, the 4 others can escape on the run. Reason for the shooting: the boys would have behaved arrogantly towards the men. It turns out that one of the victims had nothing to do with all the misunderstanding. You read that right: even a misunderstanding is enough for deadly retaliation. A few days later: (7) A father (policeman) comes home from work in the evening and gets into a fight with his 21-year-old son. Tempers run very high, and father slides his service weapon at his son and dares him to shoot him. In all the consternation and stress, the son takes the gun and shoots himself in the head. He is badly injured.
Constantly recurring phenomena
Enough examples: 7x in the past 2 weeks. Realize that not all incidents have been listed, that a year has 52 weeks, then calculate the number of incidents yourself, and that this mutual personal violence is a constantly recurring phenomenon in Thai society.
When questioning further about the why of that interpersonal violence towards each other, 'one' cannot, in my opinion, give me an adequate explanation for all the violence that takes place in Thai society between Thai people. When I ask my reasonably English-speaking Thai acquaintances for further explanation when seeing TV images or pointing to the photos in the Thai newspapers, they conveniently dismiss the explanation with the statement: “oooh, every day always the same story! Already so long time.” As if one does not want to know what is going on, does not want to be aware of it, denies and looks away. Because: “wait until you got used with it!”
Contrary to the friendly image
What you often read about Thailand on internet flora is that Thais have no respect for the lives of others, have their own skin as the main motive, and that almost all behavior is focused on acquiring their own happiness and gain. Add to that the suffocating urge to 'lose face', which means that addressing each other about desirable and undesirable behavior is out of the question. Does this mean that there is a great disengagement towards each other in Thai society? That what happens doesn't matter as long as it doesn't concern your own circumstances or those of your immediate family? If so, then this does not fit at all in the peaceful friendly picture that is painted of Thai people.
If you take into account that there is a lot of latent social and political discontent, then you could also expect more care and solidarity? After all, everyone is in the same boat. (How apt in this day and age this comparison!) Thailand's 26 annual road deaths are no example, a figure that puts Thailand at the top of the world ranking. For years. Including the hundreds of road deaths every time during the Songkran holidays and the New Year celebrations. These numbers do not decrease, and seem to belong entirely to these times of the year.
In short: it is legitimate to ask why, despite belief in karma and resignation, it is possible that so few people face the number of fatalities from all kinds of violence? (dikkevandale.nl=oppose with sense and policy).
Submitted by Soi
Probably people have little to lose in life.
Lots of poverty and drug use.
Tension due to too long working days and too little money.
Oppression by the more powerful part of the population in Thailand.
And Thailand a Buddhist country?
The Netherlands is a Christian country of origin.
But how many people (excluding Christmas) are in church on Sunday?
That will be no different in Thailand.
You certainly don't see the youth in the temple anymore, only sometimes young children.
You see only women and older people regularly.
Dear Ruud, are poverty, (the consequences of) drug use and the lack of perspective compensated by resolving conflicts with deadly violence? There are several countries with poverty, drug problems and a lack of perspective, whose populations do not attack each other with weapons. TH scores high considering population on the world list of fatal incidents. Because of hunger?
Buddhist's life consists of several lives! and is it your time is it your time and you move on to the next life. as we westerners think about death (death is death) the thai think that you will come back many times until you achieve enlightenment.
In Buddhism, you can influence the number of times you reincarnate and where you end up by living well in your current existence. That means that a Thai is aware of his death, and is much less comfortable with it than we Westerners think.
Honor killing and loss of face.
A Thai is rather easily damaged in his honor, lose face, and responding with violence seems to be normal and completely accepted.
Add to that the “Mai pen rai” mentality, ie “it happened, so why bother”, just get on with your own life.
Be friendly and nice to a Thai and they will be to the point of exaggeration towards you. Don't let him lose face though...
The question is precisely why and why Thai apparently find it normal to settle conflicts with each other, both indoors and outdoors, with lethal force.
I find the question a bit strange: “the question is legitimate, how come, despite belief in karma and resignation, that the number of fatalities from all kinds of violence is so little addressed?”
In my opinion, it is precisely because of “the belief in karma and the resigned character of the Thais” that violence is accepted as self-evident and that actually all behavior of the other is seen as appropriate in the life of that other person.
The belief of karma and the fear and trauma of losing face runs deep in the psyche of the Thai, much deeper than the Buddhist belief. For Western people that is very difficult to understand, we often see their way of thinking as a "twisted reasoning" whatever it would be for us if we thought like this.
Because of the addition “despite belief in karma and resignation”, I too cannot properly grasp the 'Question of the week'. It strikes me that Thai people, young and old, generally accept fate much more than we Dutch people. The cause will be hidden in the genes, among other things. But domestic quarrels with fatal consequences are also becoming more and more common in the Netherlands. Mothers who kill their children, fathers the whole family including themselves and stalkers who kill their ex-lover, are unfortunately no longer an exception in the Netherlands either. I don't think the many road deaths in Thailand have anything to do with the Buddhist faith. I think that the lack of enforcement of traffic rules, the penalties for violations, the poor state of maintenance of many roads and vehicles and excessive alcohol abuse are the main culprits. And you won't find trucks with dozens of people in the back that tear across the road in the Netherlands. Fatigue in traffic also takes its toll, especially around Songkran and New Year hundreds of kilometers are traveled to celebrate the party in the place of birth, the distances in Thailand are of course many times greater than in the Netherlands.
There is belief” in karma and resignation but it has not really sunk in the average Thai. This is evident, among other things, from the fact that loss of face is so important and, unfortunately, all the violence1 is from the lesser sides of Thailand.
What is the situation like in a country where firearms are also easy to obtain, such as in the USA and Brazil? Maybe it's not too bad in that comparison. Personally, I have only heard of something like this once in the area in the past 1 years and that was an accident. A hunter was shot instead of a deer. But yes, with so many hunters and so few deer, that can happen.
Dear Ton, isn't it strange and disturbing that apparently, despite karma and resignation, the Thai cannot refrain from using so much deadly force? What is it that is stronger than "the conviction of karma"? A lack of respect for a fellow Thai? Is it really from the psyche: fear of losing face, or is it deficits in coping? In that case we are simply talking about an inability to behave: not learned how to get along with each other, a lack of mentality and attitude: one is completely indifferent to the other, and government negligence: insufficient or no law enforcement.
There are a few things I haven't read yet in the bloggers' comments as well as the following
reasons of and about violence, if you turn on the TV at 6.30 on the thai channel no. 1 and not on the BVN
and you then see more violence instead of, for example, the fable newspaper, what do you want, and if you go back a few centuries
to the RAMA time it was always war with other countries so reading a little culture is good for you.
Then the short fuse is a deadly weapon in Thailand because when the men have had a drink you should not look or say something wrong because then you are not sure of your life, so think first if you want to say something and make a smiling movement and that you'll get away.
What I want to say is less violence on TV and better information at school, just look at the gift boxes for the boy boys always have a gun or other shooting equipment why not football.
With which you thus indicate that, according to you, the explanation must be sought in a stagnation of or insufficient further development of civilization since earlier times. And with that you say at the same time: “never mind, because they, the Thai, don't know any better. To then sheepishly withdraw” when things get a bit difficult.
Isn't it the way I want to deal with the people from the country where I am a guest.
We can summarize everything in a nutshell DRINK .in 99% of all violence in Thailand
I always like to see some numbers. On the link below you can interactively see the number of murders of all countries in the world and also in time (2000-2012).
Number of murders per 100.000 inhabitants:
Thailand 8.7 in 2000; 5 in 2012 A remarkable decrease.
USA 5.5 in 2000; 7.4 in 2012 A remarkable increase.
Brazil 26.7 in 2000; 29 in 2012
Venezuela 47 in 2012, tallest in the world
Netherlands 1.1 in 2000; 0.9 in 2012, a slight decrease.
Thailand has over 3.000 murders per year, almost 9 per day and 48 per week.
It's pretty pointless to speculate why Thailand has so many homicides if you can't break the numbers down into criminal homicides and personal (passion) homicides. But speculating is fun. I think it has nothing to do with the culture (Buddhism and all that) but probably more to do with gun ownership (as in the USA), socio-economic disadvantage and alcohol and drug use. How else do you explain the high numbers in the USA, Latin America and Africa?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3076470/How-does-country-fare-MURDER-MAP-Interactive-graphic-shows-homicide-rates-world.html
These are official numbers, how far is reality from here?
It's a shame culture and not a guilt culture.
Dear Tino, when compiling my reader's question, I deliberately left figures etc out of consideration, in order to be able to formulate an answer humanly, and not (quasi)scientifically. What's the benefit? Poverty, hunger, deprivation, addictions: of course all these factors play a role in explaining human motives, but in all 7 examples of deadly behavior I presented, hunger and poverty were not present. People all had their place in Thai society, had a job and income, a family and their responsibilities.
The examples also show that in almost all cases the murders were committed in people's personal and relational lives. The personal aspect usually forms an additional obstacle before committing crime. There is one example of loss of face, and one of vindictiveness. Thai apparently get into affect quickly and then quickly get dark-deep into their negative emotions. Isn't there then an absolute lack of self-control?
The balance between criminal and passion murders may well tip towards the latter!
In that case Thai still have a lot to learn. Or does that not matter, after all, there are so many more countries that precede them?
I think numbers are really important, dear Soi. Based on the figures I mentioned above, you could also have written an article entitled 'How Thailand succeeded in almost halving the number of murders in ten years'.
I think you put a lot of emphasis on all sorts of personal and cultural factors without too much evidence. How many of Thailand's murders are criminal settlements, business conflicts, alcohol and drug-driven acts, hooligan murders or the mentally disturbed like the man yesterday in Chiang Mai who killed five boys with a knife? You should check that before you judge the causes of the relatively high number of murders in Thailand and try to find a solution.
Personally, I think that psychological and cultural factors play a relatively small role in Thailand, although more so than in the Netherlands, for example. In your examples, yes, but I can name ten other examples that have to do with common criminals, etc.
Tino, I totally agree with you. And to elaborate on the figures: 5 murders per year per 100.000 inhabitants comes to "less than" 400 per 100.000 in a lifetime. Four percent. So a Thai also has about a 4 percent chance of becoming a murderer (if we also include manslaughter for the sake of convenience). In itself a lot, but of course far too little to draw any conclusions.
Figures: 400 per 100.000 in a lifetime on a population of 67 million?
I think- 270.800 murders. So what?
Dear Tino, people do have a personal responsibility and absolutely an individual responsibility when it comes to their criminal (and other) actions. If the environment or society makes it possible for them to evade this, you should not be surprised by excesses such as with that apparently schizophrenic man in Chiangmai yesterday. More often admitted and treated? Released without risk analysis, perhaps. Who monitored his medication intake? Then left to the neighborhood.
It is, as you say, not Thai not to explode when annoyed. Nor culturally.
Moderator: please don't chat.
What is a Thai brought up with.
On TV it's all murder and manslaughter. The series with ghosts are also doing well..
The good and the bad play an important role.
What everyone wants.. To give an example. A Thai will not easily buy a house where the
previous occupant passed away. Law enforcement has nothing to do with that.
Superstition is reason. Maybe no one noticed. Wearing a helmet on the motorcycle is also
asking for trouble According to Thai acquaintances, you bring disaster upon you.
Let them go. That's just the way it is. We don't change that.
As a falang, must remain very careful and not let yourself be provoked.
Cor.
Honor killings, loss of face, a public brawl with each other verbally without violence, that has never been taught as being normal.
No, violence must be added to that, it is very similar to the customs in countries where honor killings should be allowed, they are allowed to turn a blind eye, many Thai have had no correction at home, no education in what is normal, accept loss of face, never heard of it, what is that?
In my opinion, this is partly activated by the Thai TV soap series, where everything is brought up every day, murder, manslaughter, etc., that is propagated there as completely normal behavior, in short, people copy this behavior and so it is normal, unfortunately .
Nico B
Look, if every Thai watches TV every soap series, accompanied by violence, guns and rape, the Thais will be spoon-fed, in short, it is a task for the Thai government to do something about this.
Dear Soi,
Of course I appreciate your approach to the issue, but there is also a saying – a bit lame of me of course – “improve the world and start with yourself”. Now of course I don't mean to say that you are a potential murderer, but you too can probably do something. There are many farangs who drive a pick-up themselves and refuse to really take into account the vulnerability of people on scooters. If something happens it is always the fault of the Thais and never their own. Sometimes that is true, but that is not the point, the point is that the farang takes the risk that something will happen while he himself runs no real risk in his pick-up. In addition, he is generally quite old (poor eyesight and slow reaction times), uses medication and alcohol and is not prepared to follow the unwritten traffic laws. I know such a farang myself and he has already caused several traffic accidents, including hospitalization. I have made it clear to him three times that he is being irresponsible, and this has been successful to the extent that he no longer comes to see me. And hopefully he uses that pick-up less now.
But what can the Thai (and the Thai government) do? I think transporting people in the back of a pick-up is also illegal in Thailand, but I have never seen the police take any action. Wise in my opinion, because in practice there is often no real choice (unfortunately). I myself have sat in the back of a pick-up once. Irresponsible? No, just a consideration I made. It is of course different if the driver drives irresponsibly, but that is fortunately a big exception (at least in the countryside).
And then there is the issue of helmets that are often not worn. This is partly due to a lack of money. And that is not surprising when the money is almost always gone at the end of the day (and that is not due to alcohol consumption or smoking!). Just quit because there is no work or only work that yields less than the minimum wage. But of course there are always cases where the helmet is only put on near a checkpoint. Unwise, of course. Especially in the eyes of the elderly. But in my youth I also had years when I traveled 6000 km per year and as fast as possible, of course. And with the storm I probably reached over 40 km/h. Never fallen. Here the risk is of course much greater because slow and fast traffic are not separated. And the government could indeed do something about that. But that's a money issue.
As far as firearms are concerned, possession is also regulated by law in Thailand, but firearm ownership is still very high. This has clear disadvantages, but also advantages. Many people in America consider the benefits more important than the drawbacks. Why should the Thai think otherwise?
And that indifference? Should we also love those silent journeys here (also an exception in the Netherlands, by the way)? That seems pointless to me.
In short, there is something to be done (also by the farang), but there are, to quote Willem Elsschot, “practical objections”.
Dear Hans, Falang can also do something about cases with a fatal outcome, you say.
Sure, as you say improve the world and start with yourself, great starting point.
But then you write: "Additionally, he (the Falang) is generally quite old (bad eyesight and slow reaction speed), uses medicines and alcohol and is not prepared to follow the unwritten traffic laws".
That goes a bit too far for me, here you judge "in general" as if the Falang should no longer drive a car safely because, despite all those defects, it still drives a car and is therefore responsible for deaths.
Nicely aged the Farang, therefore poor eyesight, slow reaction speed, use of medicines and alcohol, not prepared to follow the unwritten traffic laws, I cannot agree with that at all and wonder where you get that wisdom from, do you have sources that confirm what you write?
Nico B
People have learned to control themselves but not learn to let go, so that all the (apparent) injustice done to them gives an accumulation of frustration that one tries to control. Doing what is required of you with complete denial of your own opinion as a result of the fallacy that any person older than yourself is always right and can boss you around. The teachings of Buddhism are misapplied, it teaches to forgive, but it is translated into controlling one's feelings, actually burying one's feelings, so there is no outlet to let off steam. When I look at my Thai wife how often she meditates, you actually expect her to be calm and thoughtful in life and although it is in her character to quickly fly up and be on fire, hardly anything changes in her by meditating. However, she thinks she does change and is calmer. It's just what she thinks of it herself, but in reality she hasn't changed much. It is also striking that it is always the fault of the other person. However, it sometimes happens that the insight changes after a few days and then frankly admits it. In the meantime she has already stood in front of me with a knife four times. I always took a step towards her and remained very calm, my reasoning is that as a good Buddhist you don't kill a fly and that's why I can still write this (smile).
What also struck me when I worked in Thailand were those weeklies with only photos of accidents, murders and so on. Horrible photos that should also be a blow to the families of the victims. I still don't understand how someone can buy something like this? I haven't seen that anywhere else! Must be somewhere in the genes of the Thais , right ?
In any case, what matters:
Buddhism in Thailand is the water on the surface, the rest to the bottom is animism. The fear of ghosts is enormous. Despite modern times, perhaps precisely because of them, many people are deeply anxious in life. The smile and the wai are not so much welcoming as averting any danger. For example, loss of face is a sign of weakness, which others, especially evil spirits, can take advantage of. Immediately restore the honor and 'power'. Perhaps many of them are not aware of it, but after many centuries of animism you really can't get that superstition out easily. It is also striking how Thai Buddhism seemingly effortlessly goes together with this.
This could be really interesting research for an anthropologist.
Thanks to everyone who took the time to read my question and especially to those who responded to the question. If, like me, you have been living in TH for many years, things continue to amaze and amaze you. Sometimes baffling. The thing about firearms and their use is, to me, an example of what baffles me. As is also the case because (fire)arm violence takes place more within personal or relational or domestic circumstances. The type of criminal murders such as liquidations are significantly less.
There is no point in filling answers to such questions with cynicism. Cynicism deprives you of an open-minded view. The arguments that are then presented are only filled with frustration. I can't do anything with that. In the end, you end up outside the community / society with all those hateful things.
What strikes me in answering my question is that the behavioral aspect lags behind. @NicoB and @GJKlaus point in that direction again. It seems to me that Thai people are generally incapable of accepting mutual influencing of behaviour. Apparently one does not learn, neither at elementary school-college-university, nor at home by parents and other adults, to get past one's own negative emotion. Being addressed by someone else immediately produces a feeling of inferiority to that other person. “Lose face” is then the direct association. And the easiest. It takes the least effort, but it eats you up.
Taking an inferior position in conflict situations is therefore what is mainly seen as behavior, and is propagated by farang in particular: laugh a little, wain a bit, retreat quickly.
Being held accountable, being accountable, being responsible, answering questions-comments-accusations, etc: it means that one is allowed to say something about how you behave and vice versa. This also means that someone admits to having been wrong, or to have used a wrong interpretation, or not to have thought through a situation properly.
Also, and this is not unimportant, that one recognizes that one is or is being emotionally affected by the behavior of another and that one would like, hope or expect the other person to change, or apologize, without bottling up emotions/feelings until the explosive occurs. But above all that one adapts one's behavior to the wishes of the other.
And above all, this means that one becomes emotionally mature and that one learns how to deal with negative emotions and feelings such as sadness, frustration, contempt, gloom, envy, etc., etc., instead of always falling into affect or short-circuiting. . It would not be wrong if the government starts to confront this type of violence and initiates school programs with reason and policy.
Finally: in the whole story I do not pretend to be complete and there will certainly be holes in my argument and certainly all kinds of imperfections.