Dear editors,
As a newcomer to this blog I would like to receive (good) advice. I have already read a lot on this forum, but there are as many different opinions as different questions.
See my problem here: As a 69-year-old Belgian, I met a 52-year-old Thai woman. I am a widower and she is legally separated. It clicks so well that I have already visited her 5 times in a year. She has already been denied a visa twice on the basis of: she cannot prove residual interests for her country and my letter of invitation was not accepted because it was not detailed enough.
The second time it was refused because there was no application? letter was drafted and a completely different account of the private conversation was noted.
Is it useful to re-apply for a visa or are there other solutions? I am thinking of signing a cohabitation contract here in Belgium and then applying for a visa for family association.
Thanks in advance.
Sincerely,
Willy
Dear Willy,
The Belgian authorities are not exactly known for being easy, they have been the second most difficult Schengen embassy in Thailand for years. While it is usually no problem for the Netherlands to bring a friend here for a holiday after only seeing each other once for a few weeks (or not at all), the Belgians really want there to be a very good relationship. Other aspects that can play a role are a large age difference (suspicion of a sham relationship). Usually the Belgian embassy gives three reasons for rejections, but I have the impression that this is mainly intended to scare people off: that people with sincere plans will persevere and if they drop out, they were not motivated enough to fully go for it.
Your girlfriend or you could have lodged an objection within a month, which might have been worthwhile if other things were indeed recorded than what your girlfriend stated at the counter. Invoking the Belgian Open Government Act, you could contact the DVZ to gain limited access to the file as an interested party to see if this would make you a little wiser about how the authorities viewed the previous applications.
I wouldn't immediately go for immigration, if she doesn't feel at home here, all energy has been for nothing! Don't give up hope and try a third time but with even better preparation. Make sure you have a file that is hard to pin down, then it is almost impossible to refuse and if this does happen, it is a good basis for lodging an objection (with a lawyer). Here are some tips:
- Show that there is a serious relationship and not a short-lived or non-serious flame: make it evident that you have met each other several times, that there is daily contact and that the relationship has therefore been serious for some time.
- Don't request more days stay than what makes sense. Few Thais can get more than 3-4 weeks off or do it with much less (unpaid) leave. So go for a short-term vacation the first time. Make sure this fits into the picture of her daily life and obligations such as work, caring for family, etc.
- Show that she has a connection with Thailand and has several reasons to return. Think of owning a house or land, a job or study, family she has to take care of, etc.
- Of course you explain all important things in an accompanying letter: that you have known each other for so long, that she wants to come here to get to know you, your family and beautiful Flanders (better). That she will definitely go back due to various obligations / ties and the simple fact that she does not want to break the law and so you will ensure a timely return.
- Make sure that all papers are in order regarding the guarantee and invitation, so that it is clear that you as a sponsor meet all requirements.
- Involve her from A to Z in the application. She is the applicant, she must know exactly what part of the file is and what your plans are, so she can communicate that clearly. And if she gets the impression that the employee at the counter is doing or seeing something wrong, let her address the employee politely but firmly. With previous visits she will have a good idea of what to expect so I hope she will be less caught off guard.
- In short, make sure that the overall picture is correct, that when the civil servant sees the file, there is no cause for questions or doubts about any aspect whatsoever.
The Schengen file already here mentions the actual requirements for a visa for the Netherlands and Belgium, but given the practice, our Flemish readers may have some practical tips.
Persevere.
Success!
Rob V
Dear,
Have you applied for the correct type of visa? A distinction must be made between a visa type C for Family Visits and Visits with a view to legal cohabitation. For the latter, you must meet the conditions for the “stable and sustainable nature of the relationship”. Among other things, showing that the relationship has existed for at least two years, spent at least 45 days together and three meetings.
If you apply for a (tourist) visa and report somewhere orally or in writing that you are thinking about family reunification, this may result in a refusal to issue it.
Kind regards
Very good explanation from Robert V, indeed the Belgian embassy (said once by an official in Belgium from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs) is slow and difficult, that man said if it was a Moroccan then everything would be arranged quickly, but a Thai one? The embassy thinks that every Thai woman who goes to Belgium is a prostitute, they are so small-minded, don't ask for a cover because they don't give one (too expensive), so to speak, but you can spend tens of thousands of euros on concerts by illustrious strangers. I know that the person who conducts interviews (Thai) is a frustrated, unfriendly person and always makes things difficult, especially the first time. A few years ago I sent a complaint to the ambassador about this, stating that he must teach his (local) staff to be polite and respect them.
I think in your case you will have to invest in a company that organizes and introduces visas at the Belgian embassy and guides your lady. They usually know what to do, I had a Swiss friend who had the same problems. An initial application is sent to Belgium's foreign affairs department for approval, then the embassy can decide for itself and the problems are usually solved when she has returned. But refugees are welcomed with open arms in Belgium, tourists stop them typically belgian, I have lived here for 12 years and I am also a widower, if I were to go back, which I do not plan, I have to wait 6 months for the mutuality, a refugee who has direct access to everything, that's how our narrow-minded country looks like, I'm glad I don't have to go back.
Success!
Already refused twice?!…..
have the file drawn up by a law firm.
my partner had her first application rejected (rightfully so with all the nonsense she had given up and not told me….)
they will want to look at the two previous applications in detail and then discuss the opportunities.
If they themselves believe it is feasible, they will accept the file and prepare and process a new application together with your girlfriend and yourself.
you pay half coraf and half upon delivery of the visa.
if the visa is refused, you can negotiate that you will not pay the second half.
it is important to be completely open and honest with the lawyer who takes your file to heart.
our application went smoothly. we then had to explain some stupidities from the first application with the cloak of love as an error due to poor interpretation in the translation into Thai and vice versa.
everyone can make a mistake. understand once.
so, don't lose time and money and get professional assistance. third time's the charm.
I used http://www.siam-legal.com/
and will use them again without hesitation.
it takes the headaches away from me.
I hear many say, you can do this yourself, and then I say yes, should I indeed do it myself. but thai lady prefers to listen to her friends 'experts' than to me and her application is therefore completely unreliable and overflowing with superlatives that she appropriates herself without being able to substantiate them with a tax return or accounting.
Dear Willy, Thomas's response is 100% correct.
You do need to know which type of visa you are applying for:
1. short stay (max 3 months) or
2. long-term residence on the grounds of relationships. This doesn't have to be a marriage. A cohabitation contract would be perfect.
I/we have many experiences with the Belgian embassy and indeed: it is known as the most difficult and usually also the most unfriendly.
Know that there are indeed many "crazy" stories coming in and that you and your girlfriend must try to distinguish yourself from these crazy stories.
During the 2 interviews I did indeed record the conversations with my iPhone in order to be able to recap later and even (if necessary) to argue.
The questions that were asked were sometimes serious about the limit in terms of privacy, but you are not in an easy position there: they make you feel very well that YOU need something from THEM. You also need to know a lot about your girlfriend's family: names, ages, children, place of residence, profession, date of birth, her real name. You definitely need to be able to communicate, ie. speak and understand a common language. They certainly test the latter.
But again it depends on the type of visa. If this is a short visa then you must be able to fill in the place of residence, the cost of that stay for her must be covered by available money + living expenses for that period. You also plan once she is on site: are you going to travel around, which destinations, has something already been arranged for that, ...
What Thomas said is also completely correct: you can appeal within the set period and then hire a Belgian lawyer: there are only a limited number of lawyers who can handle these regulations well: in that case, be very well informed who, what, why, how long, and how precious.
Persistently keep submitting the same question.
I thought you could also submit that question through another Schengen member state. This could depend on the border you actually enter. At least that was the case in the past (8 years ago) and then the Dutch embassy was an option. The questions and techniques are the same.
In terms of service mind, the staff can still take a lot of additional courses.
Dear Willy,
It can also help to submit your file and preparation to the family reunification group. Google this with the following search term: “family reunification xever” (yes, xever with x). It is the very first result in Google.
Two years ago I was waiting for the family reunification visa for Kanyda and I got some good advice there that finally helped my wife get her visa.
Create a free user account and explain your situation as completely as possible. They may also be able to help you with cases other than family reunification.
I wish you the best of luck, we sympathize with you, we know waiting is not fun when you love each other.
Best regards,
Kanyada and Bruno
Was a completely different view of the private conversation noted.
That's where the problem lies, I think. It seems to me very unlikely that what was stated there by your friend will be recorded incorrectly. It often happens that the Thai lady says things that she should not have said.
You were not present for that conversation, so you must go by your girlfriend's statements,
Dear,
I had such an experience with my current partner, Cambodian origin. Only the experience with the Belgian embassy differs from yours. It was positive.
For 3 years I flew to Phnom Penh very often. She came to Belgium every year for a month.
After those 3 years we decided that we would live together in Belgium.
Applying for a visa C with a view to legal cohabitation, via the Belgian embassy in Bangkok. This with sufficient evidence: plane tickets, photos, WhatsApp conversations, etc.
Received without any problems.
Went to the notary in Belgium for an official cohabitation contract.
My partner has therefore started the integration process.
We have now been together in Belgium for 10 months, administrative obligations have gone smoothly.
It's just 1 experience out of many, and a positive one.
I wish you the same.
Good luck.
2 important things:
– how much age difference is there?
– it's not the embassy in Bangkok, I think.
i have an age difference of more than 20 years. I have been with her 6 times for 2 to 3 weeks. She has been to Belgium twice: once for 2 weeks and once for 1 months
we applied for marriage in Belgium on her 2nd visit. This has been rejected because there is a “suspect” of marriage of convenience. I can tell you the reasons for that later, but we are now in an appeal procedure. Our application was a year ago. Curious how it will turn out. Our big mistake has been that we were not interested in the past, but we were interested in our future. That has played tricks.
So if you want to be sure that it will go well later, it is best to create a "manual of use" now. Take note of all her and your family's names, make sure you have information about her previous marriage and the reasons for the divorce, make sure you know where she went to school, keep a record of conversations and telephone. Then you already have a good basis, although the age difference clearly plays a role for some researchers. The more difference, the more they will try to prove a marriage of convenience. If it comes to that, of course. If you want to play it safe, put off getting married as long as possible once you've had her visit Belgium. If she has been here once, the next times will go more smoothly.
Dear,
We have a 17 year age difference.
The French embassy in Phnom Penh arranged for an ordinary tourist visa in Cambodia.
For the C visa with a view to legal cohabitation, you must go to the Belgian embassy in Bangkok.
Greetings
the only thing I can say to this: a new representative has been in the Belgian Embassy since April. They still have to prove themselves and will seize the slightest opportunity to reject a visa. He was apprenticed to his predecessor and he was not the easiest either. He also thinks that his successor is doing an excellent job.
Appealing is not recommended because then you will be stuck for a longer period of time. Feel free to count on a year or more. It is better to simply submit a new application, to look closely at their reasons for rejection and to ensure that these reasons can no longer be raised. For the rest you leave everything as it was, they must be straight.
And it's not the ladies at the counter who make the decisions. The current ambassador is also leaving after the summer, I hear. The question is who will replace it.
The assignment that applies to both the file managers at the Immigration Department and the embassy staff: make it difficult, make them sweat for it, try to discourage them and see if they can last long enough.
Completely incomprehensible that a country that should make its inhabitants (taxpayers) feel good is rather concerned with overloading innocent people with frustration and hopelessness in order to ultimately benefit itself (the State) as much as possible from the situation.
The decision whether to grant or not is not made by the visa officer at the embassy. He only has an advisory function. The final decision lies with DVZ.
The previous visa officer once stated.
Sometimes we have to protect people against their will.
We also sometimes have to protect the lady in question.
In NL, I benefited greatly from the opinion that every conversation with a civil servant may be recorded by one of the parties. Must be reported.
see google: “conversation recording civil servant”.
And you can bet that the administrative judge has listened emphatically to this: witness Ir food science says in an objection procedure at the NLe Min. v Public health: “NO danger to public health” (concerned food), but the relevant official reports: “ONE objection in favor”. (Yes, we officials who rule above God do not shy away from anything, not even from falsification in writings or a statement under official oath = perjury!). The administrative judge washed the ears of the NVWA lawyer as if with a wire brush!
Different rules apply in Belgium, I understand: http://www.juridischforum.be/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6298 but yes: http://www.elfri.be/opname-eigen-telefoongesprekken-en-verboden-telefoontap. From this I draw the conclusion that you may also record an oral conversation in which you are present. Now it remains, whether the relevant official may refuse, or accept it as in NL..! At the NLe Min v. Public Health it was a bit of a swallow for the officials concerned.
Further alternative: can't you get a rental contract for a holiday home in F, D or NL for the relevant time? Then enter via Schiphol / Frankfurt / Paris and officially go to that holiday address, and .. problem evaporates.
Personally I have only positive experience with the Belgian Embassy. Six months after I met my girlfriend, I got a visa for 3 months. Now she is coming to Belgium for the third time for three months. In November we will have been together for two years and in December we will apply for a visa for legal cohabitation.
Every time after a few days received a message that the passport was on its way. If you put enough time and effort into the visa application, this is certainly not an insurmountable hurdle. You have to spend many hours on websites and forums like this one to collect the necessary information…
Never had a problem with a visa for my girlfriend, handled quickly, then applied for a visa for her sister for which I guaranteed, after three weeks she was in Belgium!
My friends also had no problem. You just have to be honest and make sure that you understand each other well? that's the problem with thai, they understand differently than we do or vice versa!
And what if you hired a lawyer who specializes in those cases for the new application.
And the reverse is not possible. You live much cheaper in Thailand
Good luck
With the expert help of Erik in Pattaya I succeeded. Go to : http://www.visaned.com
Dear Willy,
I have also had a similar experience, twice refused tourist visas, their answer was “danger of settlement”, she has no permanent job, no house, no children, so it is assumed that she will not return.
We then got married, which went very smoothly, we applied again, got a tourist visa again, NO family reunion and after 2 months the approval suddenly came.
A friend of mine was refused a tourist visa twice, wanted to get married, went to the embassy for proof of "no impediment to marriage", after a few days he was called to come to the embassy for mutual questioning, after which he was told that they did not have that proof. were able to deliver and his file was forwarded to the prosecutor in Bruges. Calling the police for an interrogation of a few hours, everything back to the prosecutor and 2 weeks later proof “No impediment to marriage” refused!
Yet that man has a clean criminal record!
There you are, what to do?
2 months later back in Thailand, Skype conversations, emails, stamps in his and her passport that they have been together for 2 years (6-7 times) and travel around and back to the embassy, that was a month ago. And yes, the same problem again, file forwarded back to the attorney.
and with that all is said. The judicial services in Bruges are notorious. If your file ends up there and you have an age difference of more than 7 years, you have a price. So if you want to bring your girlfriend to Belgium, you prefer to move if you live in that judicial district.
Or visit the embassy yourself would also help. This was in my case. Also often 3 months is a problem and 4 to 6 weeks for the first time is not.
Then arrange an extension in Belgium;
Good luck
Hi Willy – am 50 – my girlfriend 43.
Important to understand is:
The Belgian Embassy works with Thai personnel, so according to Thai rules
Low-sco or high-sco impact cannot be underestimated.
With accompanying Thai rules if you know what I mean... 😉
My solution was simple : since it was too difficult to obtain a tourist visa and I would love to see her anyway, we got married in Thailand – quickly arranged and then applied for a visa for family reunification : easy as pie…
If you want the contacts at the Embassy – Consular Section or the Visa Officer, you can always contact me – I can give you every detail of any form you want – good luck 😉 !
Dear Ben,
Thank you for your response to my reader's letter
As you note, it is sometimes very difficult to obtain a Visa, yet all documents were present, such as: invitation letter with all the details of why and the planned purpose, letter from her daughter supporting us in this decision, guarantee of returning to Thailand ( aircraft reservation) payment by me, letter from employer for leave and return to work on return, my solvency with bank statements (3 months) The only thing that I have not been able to prove sufficiently are the conversations via Line (max 3 months) etc.
May I ask you, as you mentioned, to let the contacts you speak of become me?
Thanks in advance
Willy
Out of five applications, rejected four times.
Applications one and two were rejected, application number three, we were once told in the corridors of the embassy that “the third one will work, they will throw the first one in the trash bin??? ” then January 05, 2011 for Buddha and legally married in Bkk. on Jan 26 2011 ... after all the hassle of all the paperwork, translations, legalizations, etc., permission was given ... and so we continue through life as husband and wife .... apply for visa no. 3, and yes... a little later we are on the plane to Den Belgiek.... visiting family and friends including my mother, children and grandchildren, sister and brothers... there was also a wedding party, and after some tourist visits my wife was piloted back into Thailand on time... thinking now we are done!!!! which was quite wrong…. fourth and fifth request "refused" ... with a lot of nonsense as a motive on their part, I have tried everything from the Mayor to us Magical and unbudsman ... you stand there with your Belgian marriage certificate and marriage certificate in your hand which apparently has no value at all and the laws contained therein mean absolutely nothing... I said to myself that I will stop doing that, all that effort and expense is for nothing... only to be run over by people from other countries in Antwerp, for example, when I have to go to Belgium alone and I... 'I can make a phone call to my wife in the evening... the only thing that changes in my situation, our situation, is that we are together one day longer every day... all of this is of course a much longer story than I am writing here now... but with some visits to the embassy, you understand...
Kind regards… P,S. I have often been advised to apply for your visa at the German embassy, much more flexible and the same visa, so...
I once took information in a Visa agency in Pattaya that supposedly provides security for your visa file. When I requested a copy of a contract, it was promptly sent to me. Everything is stated in this, including that you ultimately have to provide all the documents (which seems logical to me) and that they guarantee that you will receive the visa in the shortest possible time. However, the contract further states that they are not responsible if you do not get the visa as a result of a mistake you made. So that is a contract with a guarantee that does not exist. From then on I made no further contact. Finally, I received an email saying that both me and my girlfriend were rude because we no longer answered the phone when they called us. However, we had not received an incoming telephone call. BUT the man in question was apparently so angry that he talked his mouth off and said: you shouldn't try again, neither you nor your girlfriend will ever get a visa arranged at the Belgian embassy in Bangkok again.
When I was in the embassy a few weeks later, a lady from this company walked into the waiting room with an estimated 8 to 10 files. Apparently she had priority because she could be helped at a counter before us. If you count that we easily spend 20 minutes or more at the counter despite a completely complete file and that the lady delivered her 10 files in less than 10 minutes, people can still ask serious questions about that. What the hell is happening in that Belgian embassy???
What is also significant is the following paragraph in the e-mail:
Patrick, we complete hundreds of Schengen applications each year and we feel it is necessary to ensure you have all the paperwork and documents that are needed. Please don't ever presume you have the correct documents or know what the Embassy need, their requirements change constantly.
Or in proper Dutch: the conditions are constantly changing. (Read: so that they always have a reason to reject a visa…). But apparently those visa offices are kept well informed. This has been confirmed in an official email from a visa office.
================================================== ======================
look at the warranty of the contract here:
(1.) Should the visa not be granted for any fault of you (the customer) or the visa applicant, then no refund will be due.
This includes failure to provide this office or the embassy with all requested documentation and supporting evidence in a timely and accurate manor. This evidence includes (but is not limited to) employment, financial, residential and marital status, together with proof of relationship. We also need to be advised of any previous applications made, whether successful or unsuccessful.
(2.) Should the embassy determine that either you, or the visa applicant during interview, has been less than candid and therefore rejects the application on this basis, this is outside the control of this office and therefore a refund will not be payable.
(3.) Should you or the applicant deviate from our instructions during the application process, this is at your risk and a refund will not be made in the event of a refusal by the embassy.
(4.) Should you decide to cancel this contract at any time and for whatever reason, no refund of any monies already paid will be due.
(5.) The timescales involved in acquiring the visa once the application has been submitted to the embassy is again outside the control of this office. While we will do everything to expedite the process, we can only give approximate timescales based on our experience.
(6.) We reserve the right to cancel this contract should you not submit the application to the embassy within 12 months from the contract date. In this event no refund will be due.
(7.) Should the visa be refused by the embassy for any reason which might be determined to be the fault of this office, we will refund our fee in full excluding the Embassy fee and transportation costs. However, we do reserve the right to appeal the embassy decision without seeking prior permission from the customer.
Dear Patrick
Your response has received my full attention as it is perhaps an aspect that few know or dare to say. I will certainly take it into account in my further procedure
Thank you