Moving to Spain and a visa for my Thai girlfriend
Dear readers,
Regarding everything involved in getting a Thai girlfriend (or “sweetheart” as my compatriot the Inquisitor and now renowned author on this blog so nicely calls her) to an EU country, there is a lot to be found on the internet and of course also on this blog.
Still, I hope to be able to figure out the following: Sporadically I read a reaction here from a Belgian who lives in Spain with his Thai sweetheart (sorry Inquisitor, is not intended as a plagiarism, but as a tribute!). Now my question is whether there are specific conditions for Spain?
I don't live there yet, the girlfriend lives in Thailand and therefore doesn't have anything in terms of visa for the time being. Now let's say that I will be living in Spain in about a year. Do people also have to have a minimum net income of EUR 1.500 to be able to invite someone and how much income with permanent residence of a girlfriend? What about health care for the Thai?
The "import" directly to Spain or first Belgium or via Germany? A person reads quite a lot!
It all seems very virtual and premature, but there is such an expression: Look before you leap. Hence.
Thanks in advance for the response(s).
Regards,
Roger
Dear Roger,
In theory, it should be possible for EU/EEA (European Union / European Economic Area) nationals who live elsewhere in the EU/EEA to settle freely. Any partner and immediate family members from outside the EU/EEA also have certain rights to accompany the EU citizen. These are laid down in EU Directive 2004/38 “on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States”. Please note: The directive does not apply to EU/EEA nationals who live in a member state of which they themselves have the nationality. But a Belgian who wants to go to Spain for a short (up to 3 months) or long stay (immigration) can therefore rely on the directive. Under this directive, for example, it is possible for the non-EU national to obtain a short-stay visa free of charge via a simplified, relaxed procedure. Immigration is also possible under flexible requirements, provided the alien is not an 'unreasonable burden' for the state and does not pose a threat to national security.
According to the Directive (according to Article 2(2)) at least the spouse and the minor children are eligible for proceedings under this Directive. The Directive states (according to Article 3(2b)) that “the partner with whom the citizen of the Union has a duly proven long-term relationship” also qualifies. However, there are no agreements at EU level when such a relationship is involved, each Member State has its own interpretation/rules for this or sometimes no rules at all.
I actually assumed that Spain would only accept immigration from a Thai if there is talk of a marriage. To my surprise, Spain would also allow immigration for unmarried people. The Spanish authorities (ministerio del empleo, secretaria general de inmigracion) state:
“Pareja de hecho no inscritta con la que mantenga una relación estable debidamente probada al acreditar la existencia de un vínculo duradero. And to do so, there is a continuation of the relationship between marriage and marital conviviality, already menos, there is a continuation of life, and the relationship between marriage and marriage is good. Las situaciones de matrimonio y pareja se considerarán, en todo caso, incompatibles entre si.”
Relying on machine translation, this Spanish text states that people in a long-term relationship are also eligible if there is clear evidence of an exclusive relationship of at least one year and can prove this with documentary evidence.
If you were to marry your Thai partner, there can of course be no discussion whether the Thai partner should be regarded as a family member of an EU national. After all, you have a marriage certificate as proof. Of course, this should be a legal and sincere marriage. However, authorities may require that the marriage papers be translated into a language that the (Spanish) authorities can understand, as well as that the deeds and translation be legalized (to ensure the authenticity of the documents).
However, Spain is known for not being satisfied with a foreign (Thai) marriage certificate, even if it is translated and legalized. The Spanish embassy would also like the EU member state to recognize/confirm the marriage. Strictly speaking, this is contrary to EU rules, but this is because the Spaniards have incorrectly adopted the directive in their national legislation. The Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs also recognizes this, as I have heard in the past from lawyers (active at foreignpartner.nl). Cooperating with strictly speaking incorrect requests usually has the best result. After all, if it can't be done the way it should, then it should be done the way it can. Of course you are free to submit a complaint about this to, for example, the European Commission via EU Home Affairs. The EU itself does not work very quickly, such a complaint mainly serves administrative purposes so that Brussels can hold a member state to account for frequent violations and can take such actions into account when discussing policy reforms in the future.
In practice, both the Spanish embassy and various authorities in Spain may play tricks on you. For example, on ThaiVisa I regularly read experiences of EU nationals who want to go to Spain with their Thai partner for a short stay or immigration and are then not only asked to prove that the EU member state recognizes the marriage, but also that they want to see medical travel insurance. a Thai police report (as a statement of conduct), flight tickets, hotel booking or other proof of accommodation/accommodation, etc.
In theory, you could travel to Spain together, with your partner on a short stay visa (Schengen visa type C) or long stay (Schengen visa type D) and find a place to live there and register both of you in Spain . However, if I read the experiences like this, it is probably best to first ensure the stay in Spain yourself and only then have your partner come over. I would then check again with both the embassy in Bangkok and the Ministry of Immigration what the Spanish authorities require from your Thai partner.
You do not write on what basis you want to live in Spain with your partner. The starting point is that you and your partner are not an unreasonable burden and that you have sufficient income to get by. You can work in Spain as an employee, self-employed person or as a pensioner. Provided you have sufficient income (no amounts are given that are 'sufficient', the Spaniards may have example amounts, but as long as your income is sufficient to meet all your obligations and you do not appeal to social assistance, the Spaniards should not interfere lying down) may happen to your Thai partner without meeting any further requirements. Of course, after immigration they will have to register and take out health insurance. There is no obligation to integrate (take language exams, etc.).
My conclusion is that you can live in Spain with your Thai partner, but that you can take various routes for this. One will bring more obstacles and headaches than the other. I can't say what the best approach is, if only because I don't know your exact situation and I'm not aware of the exact immigration rules that the Spaniards set or how individual Spanish officials explain the rules. As always, timely preparation is essential. Sketch the route(s) you want to follow, clearly state on paper what your situation is (your work/income situation, your nationality, her nationality, your marital status, etc.) and contact the Spanish authorities for further information. information. See if their answer suits you and if it corresponds a bit with the official EU requirements and Spanish requirements. You can then plan further from there.
Finally, my tip is to read the following EU Manual in addition to EU Regulation 2004/38, which explains this in simpler words in Chapter 3 (page 82):
If, despite good preparation, you still get stuck, you can contact the EU Ombudsman Solvit. Solvit can be reached, among other things, by going to the web pages mentioned in my sources europa.eu/youreurope clicking on the “help or advice” button.
On paper this should all be a simple process, but it may be clear that in practice it is unruly. I hope to have given you a good basis from which to get started. Good luck!
Regards,
Rob V
PS: Nice to know, once you live in Spain, your partner will receive a residence card stating that she is the partner of an EU national. With that card, she can travel with you visa-free to all EU/EEA member states (including the United Kingdom as long as it is still a member state) and Switzerland. In time, you could also move back to Belgium together, where Belgium will no longer be able to impose its own national immigration or integration rules on you. The latter is known as the EU route.
Resources and useful links:
- http://eur-lex.europa.eu/
- http://europa.eu/youreurope/
- http://europa.eu/youreurope/
- http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/
– – http://belgie-route.
– http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.
(Spanish)
– http://www.exteriores.gob.
If I have disappointed someone because I once did not provide direct links to all sources ... That was partly because I did it from memory. The critical reader naturally wants an exact source reference, so here it is:
From foreignpartner.nl I quote retired lawyer Prawo (G. Adang):
“At the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Madrid, they are well aware of the EU regulations.
The consulates do not and their employees are poorly trained and/or work with a Latin commitment.”
- http://www.buitenlandsepartner.nl/showthread.php?56998-Visum-ook-door-rechter-afgewezen-via-een-ander-land-een-optie&p=576948&viewfull=1#post576948
That they do know how it should be done in Madrid:
“Spain is a good choice as the first country of residence since that country does comply with the rules after a conviction from the European Court.” — G. Adang
- http://archief.wereldomroep.nl/nederlands/article/met-je-buitenlandse-partner-naar-nederland-20-tips?page=5
— With reference to case C-157/03 at the EU Court:
— http://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?language=nl&jur=C,T,F&num=C-157/03&td=ALL
Unfortunately, the experiences of how things at the Spanish embassy in BKK often go wrong in practice, it is simply a matter of searching for topics about Spain in the 'Visas ans immigration to other countries' forum on ThaiVisa. Then there will be about a dozen topics that I will not mention here.
This purely for a more complete picture, primary sources and reference work are of course EU Directive 2004/38 and the information of the Spanish Ministry of Immigration (which should correctly apply these EU agreements). A practical experience of yesterday may already be outdated today.
Additional question to Ronnie: I want to go the same route, and I am married. The marriage is also recognized in the Netherlands, my wife even received a BSN. However, there is no official document of the recognition - it was not provided, according to the official.
What, then, should this evidence for the Spanish authorities consist of?
In addition to registering it with your own municipality, you can have a foreign marriage converted into a Dutch marriage by registering it with the Landelijke Taken department. This falls under the municipality of The Hague. You can then get a Dutch extract from the marriage, but ask for one for international use.
Of course, in theory, the Thai marriage papers should suffice (plus recognized translation and legalizations). There is a good chance that Spain will wrongly ask for proof that the marriage is recognized by the Netherlands. Such a Dutch international extract should certainly suffice, but actually a legalization of the Thai papers by the Dutch embassy is already more than one may ask for (whereby the Dutch legalization confirms the correctness of the Thai MinBuZa legalization, the Spanish embassy can do that, however). yourself).
If you are married in the Netherlands, you can of course simply get the extract from your own municipality.
Ps: Ronny and I are not the same person as far as I know! 555 😉
With the last response from Rob V., an orange light flashes in my head:
“A Dutch extract of the marriage for international use”
I don't quite understand this and a number of question marks occur to me.
I myself have been married in Thailand for over 4 years and my marriage is registered in Belgium.
My wife has been living with me in Belgium for 4 years and has an F card (identity card for non-Belgians).
Suppose I were to emigrate to Spain, would I also have to apply for an extract from the marriage for international use, despite the fact that the movement of persons and goods within the EU is free?
If the marriage is registered in your EU country, then this applies to the entire EU, right?
In Belgium, there is also a family composition certificate. Isn't that enough?
These are questions I ask that I don't know the answer to myself. But I find it helpful to think about that.
Dear Daniel, you really have to see these things separately.
1) To settle under the EU rules with your Thai partner under the flexible rules (including free Schengen visa type C) for a holiday or immigration, a legally valid marriage is sufficient. The only requirement set by the EU in Directive 2004/34 is that these marriage/papers must not be fraudulent. To establish that the papers are indeed in order, the member state may ask for legalization (Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the relevant European embassy in Thailand, which confirms the legalization of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for authenticity) plus an official translation in a language that the member state understands. In practice, the Spanish embassy is not satisfied with this, although people in Madrid know very well how things should go. Spain wrongly wants an official piece of paper showing that the marriage is also known and recognized in the country of the EU national. They shouldn't really ask. Cooperating with this bureaucratic arbitrariness or ignorance is usually the most pragmatic solution.
2) A Dutch national can voluntarily (thus optionally) convert the foreign marriage into a Dutch certificate. This is done via Landelijke Taken in The Hague. You can then easily obtain an extract in the Netherlands via Landelijke Taken or an English/multilingual international version. You no longer have to go after a fresh deed/legalization from Thailand. Spain is satisfied with this Dutch marriage extract.
“After legalization, you can have a foreign public deed registered with the Landelijke Taken department of the Municipality of The Hague. (…) A legalized foreign deed comes from registration in the registers of the civil status of the municipality of The Hague. The advantage of this is that you can always request copies and extracts from the municipality of The Hague. In that case, you do not have to apply for the deed abroad again and have it legalised. ”
Source:
https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/legalisatie-van-documenten/vraag-en-antwoord/inschrijven-gelegaliseerde-buitenlandse-akte
3) If you are registered as a resident of the Netherlands, you must report a foreign marriage to your own municipality. The municipality does not issue extracts from this.
"Do you live in the Netherlands? Then you must register your marriage or registered partnership abroad in the Municipal Personal Records Database (BRP). Do you live abroad as a Dutch national? Then this is not possible”
Source: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/trouwen-samenlevingscontract-en-geregistreerd-partnerschap/vraag-en-antwoord/trouwen-of-geregistreerd-partnerschap-sluiten-in-het-buitenland
So if you are a Dutch person living in Belgium with your Thai wife, number 3 does not apply to you. According to European agreements, every legally valid marriage has to be recognized throughout the EU, the first European Member State to conclude or register this marriage (if married outside Europe) can of course investigate marriages of convenience because fraudulent marriages are of course not accepted. Various Spanish officials at the embassy in BKK, among others, have a bit of trouble with those rules…
Hallo,
How strange that I am reading this for the first time! Thought this only applied to the African continent. The most important thing is that the lovers can be/stay together no matter what.
I myself think these rules are nonsense because they are valid for one (country) and not for the other country. sheer government hypocrisy so to speak.
If you and your loved one have to move to another country, I would
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