Statement of the week: 'Thai shouldn't be so prudish.'
Walking into the screaming neon-lit bar streets wouldn't expect it, but the majority of Thais are rather prudish. At least there is a strict separation of what you do indoors and outdoors.
You will therefore have to search for a long time for nudist beaches where exotic Thai get their daily dose of entertainment. And then you won't find them yet.
On the beach, Thai ladies are especially noticeable by dressing in long pants and a t-shirt. You can also bathe in the sea in this full-body outfit. That has two advantages. You don't see anything and you don't tan. You rarely see a Thai woman in a bikini.
Of course you could say 's Country wise 's Lands honor, but on the other hand it might be a bit exaggerated and outdated.
Fortunately, there are the tourists who come to bring a different gospel. That of freedom is joy. Although the travel guides are full of Thai 'Do's and Don'ts' and there is an explicit warning not to traumatize Thai people by leaving the bikini top at home, many Western women are as deaf as a quail.
When I walked on the beach of Hua Hin a few months ago, you saw a handful of tourist breasts that had been stripped of constricting textiles. Thai will say nothing and pretend their noses are bleeding. But asking my girlfriend, who has a respectable Western mindset, learned that Thais absolutely cannot appreciate such top-lessers. You only show your (half) naked body to your boyfriend or husband, who has the exclusive right. In the public environment this is 'not done'.
A discussion with her about morals and norms did not offer any changed insights. “If those farang ladies give their breasts a holiday in the sun, let them anyway”, I put this weighty problem into perspective somewhat. Not knowing that this would ever result in a statement on Thailandblog.
My reasoning: Thailand wants tourists. They spend tons of money. Tourists behave like tourists, after all they are on vacation. That also means that they like to top up their tan without annoying white stripes on the upper body”. Then Thai should look the other way. In short, 'Thai shouldn't be so prudish'. And so is this week's statement.
Perhaps you do not agree and you look at this statement completely differently. Why actually? Let us know.
'when you are in Rome, do as the Romans do'
An ancient wisdom, that is, it is polite, and perhaps beneficial, to obey the customs of a community when one is a visitor.
It's that simple.
A beautiful old wisdom that everyone should agree with. Let the people there be as they are. Imagine if they became just like “us”, then we wouldn't have such a good time in Thailand. Live and let live also applies here.
Ruud
Why should the Thai have to adapt in their own country just because the tourist spends some money?
What is the next thing the Thai should adapt to, the tourist uses a lot of drugs so should the Thai also adapt and legalize?
The adaptability of most Thais is directly proportional to their appetite for money.
Everything is possible for money.
And whether the Thais are really that prudish?
Yes, in appearance, but hide when money is in the crosshairs.
And Phangan, the tourist uses more drugs?
Really?
I bet that there are more drugs in Thailand than in the Netherlands.
But, and that is precisely the point, everything in secret.
And money is expressly, I'm told, looked the other way.
The Thai prude?
Do not make me laugh.
Mia Nois, massage+, Pattaya, Karaoke+……..
I don't write anywhere that the tourist uses more drugs than a Thai…………………………..
Thais are not prudish at all, at least not after sunset. But even then there may not be a Buddha image in the same room. Even in another room presents another problem, because then even the door of the bedroom closes.
Gerry Q8, you are absolutely right. That question is about nothing and the outcome is certainly not usable by anyone. We are guests here, would dress fancifully (bareness above body on the street is prohibited by law). If we think that the Thais are too prudish, you can still book your holiday to Greenland or Timbuktie next time. I would ask that question openly on the market in Marrakech. Can you see on your stop watch how fast you are in a plane back to the Netherlands. Strange, because those thousands of Moroccans in the Netherlands could have long ago told their background in Morocco how prudish they are there, in contrast to the Netherlands.
I suggest that the following statement becomes: Westerners should not be so exposed. What is this about now? Can we really learn something from this? Before you know it, we are back in the middle of the (discussion about) cultural differences. And that, Tino writes today, is not the case anyway.
If you live here or come on holiday, you have to adapt to the customs and manners of Thailand. This is already pointed out in brochures from travel agencies, but ignored by tourists despite reading.
If I have to adapt to the custom of the country, I also have to sit naked in the go go bar.
When you come to Thailand as a tourist, you must adhere to the standards and values of that country, so do not lie topless on the beach. It is an annoyance to most Thai people.
Now back to the statement:
I think that Thais are sometimes very prudish when they go swimming with fully covered clothing, for example, but I can appreciate that.
On the other hand, it is also very good in terms of prudishness. Many young girls today wear relatively short skirts/dresses and shorts, and by that I don't mean the bargirls, but the general population. If you're very prudish, you don't.
Appearing naked above the body in public (seen daily in the streets of Pattaya and topless on the beach) is prohibited by law in Thailand. Exactly like smoking in restaurants. But there are tourists who are not interested in this at all. I would have all tourists at Survarhnabuhmi sign a piece of paper (in all languages). If you do not comply, a bhute of 2000 (already) to 10.000 - If you repeat, you can leave the country IMMEDIATELY,
As a tourist you have to respect the customs of the country and I also think it is absolutely not necessary to sunbathe topless.
I don't think this is necessary even in the Netherlands or anywhere else. This has nothing to do with the money that the tourists bring in.
I have been to Thailand many times and am going again this year and love the people.
What a nonsensical statement! Everyone knows the answer: you are a guest here in the country and you should behave according to the norms and values that apply here. Topless is definitely not done, and not even a thong. People who do this have no respect for the country, for the Buddhist culture, etc. If they want to be naked or almost naked, they can go to the south of France, but stay away from Thailand.
How the hell do you come up with a statement that Thais should be less prudish. It is their country and their culture that we must respect, not the other way around.
We in the Netherlands are annoyed by Muslims who want to impose their culture in the Netherlands, but here in Thailand we do want to force our culture on them. Ridiculous and disgraceful.
I've been traveling to Thailand for 40 years, and have been living there permanently with a Thai partner for 5 years, I've learned a lot from that, and I'm regularly annoyed by tourists who don't know how to behave, or even misbehave. They are thorns in the eyes of the Thai. But they have no choice because it is a major source of income.
Showing respect, many still have to learn that!!!
Great response Theo. I totally agree with you. Those Thais would just stay as they are. That's why we're here, for people and country, isn't it?. Not yet. I assume ujit, that your adaptation to the Thai culture has cost you no effort?. It is beautiful and nice to stay in this country. So WE adapt and not the other way around.
The funny thing is of course that Thai women (and men) walked around with bare breasts without a care in the 20s. I have a nice photo of a market in Chiang Mai (about 1920) where you can see that. The Thai elite, led by the king, started a civilization offensive at that time: Thais had to adopt Western civilization, especially for appearance, and dress codes were an important part of this. Hats and feminine headgear were also considered necessary, but this did not happen.
I think that Khun Peter himself does not believe in this stupid statement, but has only made it for the sake of discussion. Theo has sufficiently made mincemeat of this statement, so I will not do that again. If rejecting extremely unaesthetic and offensive behavior in 90% of cases is “prudish”, then rejecting copulation in public is probably “childish”. But I have to object to one comment in Theo's excellent contribution: “If they want naked or almost naked, they go to the south of France.” I'd rather not, Theo! What's wrong with your own backyard?
Thai people are not prude, it has to do with education and decency, so why should we as farang not show respect for this.
It is also very important for Thai people not to spend too much time in the sun, this is also a reason to dress like this on the beach, because being too tan is associated with being low or not educated such as working at the country or as a fisherman.
And then the well-paying tourists or expats can come up with all kinds of excuses, with what the Thai may not do wrong in their eyes, but it is and remains their country and you are a guest there, so adapt.
It is very disturbing for Thai people when they are out for a day with their children if someone is sunbathing topless.
On top of that, topless sunbathing is actually illegal in Thailand, under Thai law, you can get arrested for it.
The fear of tanning also comes from the manufacturers that sell skin whitening creams.
That is probably a billion dollar trade in Thailand.
(At least in Thai Baht then.)
Those manufacturers have every interest in selling people dark is ugly, in selling those whitening creams.
Just like the same manufacturers in the Netherlands promote sunscreen.
Moreover, the Thai soap operas are full of light-skinned Thai.
This is probably paid for by those manufacturers.
Of course you adapt. You go to Thailand because it is so Thai, right? The story of the market in Chang Mai is new to me, I didn't know. Then Thailand has apparently changed. But I don't think you should offend the Thai. And yes, I would rather not see it in the Netherlands either. I'm not a prude, but a woman who stands in front of me topless without my asking: I don't think that's right.
I myself love to walk in my bare ass, I didn't do anything different when I was sitting on the beach in Greece, here in Thailand I don't mind that,
I am a guest here and would like to be treated with respect.
I have also seen that some tourists in Hua Hin don't care about everything, so I don't hesitate to tell them that a fine is possible, and if they don't listen I will go to the tourist police myself.
Humour,….
What a beautiful statement from all of us dear Khun Peter,…
tourists behave like tourists, after all, they are on vacation, ..etc. etc. is that a license??
as you say yourself (quote) Thai will say nothing about it, and pretend that their nose is bleeding.
And no,……. the Thais are not prudish, the Thai are not ashamed of their bodies, have physical contact much more easily, and do not have that problem of difference of age and ethnic completeness, as in the so "prudish" West, it is again typical of the contemporary culture in Thailand, and as an incidental added value for health, think of skin cancer.
I would rather call their prudishness a form of extreme hypocrisy.
By the way, Thais are usually very hypocritical in their whole pattern of behavior, not just in terms of prudishness, which also comes across as very artificial.
To be seen tonight on TV, with a lot of trumpet blasts and surrounded by many political personalities and policemen, large quantities of imitation products (handbags, watches, etc…) are shown and destroyed in the presence of a whole bunch of local press and photographers.
While "around the corner" the same products are publicly selling, as everywhere in Thailand.
But the worst part is that an average Thai will not ask any questions at all.
Sometimes I think that Thais are (or want to be) blind by sight.
This "prudishness" also manifests itself in their approach to sexuality or eroticism, however banal. A bikini is the devil for them, you just have to see how Thai ladies approach the sea water when they are on holiday at the coast. To cry with the cap on.
While around the corner "other" Thai ladies are dancing almost naked on the pole. Agreed, they do their thing in the bars, but in reality they come from disadvantaged areas and they do it for a living. But they grew up with the same Thai "values" and what they call traditions here, where has their prudishness gone?
Or could money dissolve prudishness like snow in the sun?
Roland you hit the nail on the head, thorough hypocrasy. Here, a few streets away, prudish ladies conjure up fish from their **&&^%$$# . Furthermore, I refuse to adapt to various norms and values here in Thailand, no I will not treat Burmese or combodian fellow people as 2nd class people for me everyone is equal.
Let me put a penny in the bag.
My Thai ex lived with me in the Netherlands for a year before we emigrated to Thailand together, that was 15 years ago.
One day I suggested visiting the nudist beach just north of Hoek van Holland. After some hesitation, she agreed, more out of curiosity than enthusiasm, I think. When we got there she looked around a bit surprised, then put the bath towel on the sand, undressed completely and lay down. She didn't want to swim, the water was too cold, she said. A good example of how it is not the culture (prudishness and such) that determines the behavior, but the circumstances.
A Thai who visits the Dutch nudist beach does exactly what we Dutch people in Thailand have to do: adapt to the prevailing customs and views. Indeed, a good example!
Tino, you might as well cite the behavior of the foreign ladies in Thailand as an example in which culturally learned behavior (topless sunbathing) prevailed over the circumstances (in which this is not appropriate) and conclude that behavior is apparently determined by culture. It's all a bit too black and white for me.
Moreover, I don't think anyone is arguing that people don't change their behavior when they end up in a different culture. In your example, you're just pretending the circumstance changed, but what's crucial is that this other circumstance (naked people) occurred in a different culture (where nudity is more or less accepted). The question is whether she would have gone with you and stripped naked if there were a nude beach in Thailand. Maybe not. I am therefore not convinced by your example (but I do like to think about it).
There is an analysis of the Titanic disaster. It turned out that the English on board were closer to the lifeboats than the Americans. Nevertheless, there were relatively more Americans who managed to get a spot in the lifeboats than the English. The analysts attribute this to the more brutal mentality of the Americans. This would mean that even in a life-threatening circumstance, in which one would expect to throw overboard the learned mores (no pun intended), cultural differences are reflected in behavior.
A bit of an exaggeration in my opinion. The thai women prude ? if you look at the average clothes on the street i didn't think so. You see shirts and short mini skirts and hot pants everywhere. Please note that most of them wear pants under the miniskirt.
So prudish right? no, it's a matter of decency, which is a completely different norm than in the west. Not wanting to shock someone else plays a major role, which sounds like a prude, but is something completely different. And then on the beach? just very simple a practical problem a Thai does not like tanning, just like with us in the past.
Look at how many whitening products there are on the market, it makes sense that people avoid the sun as much as possible.
And what happens indoors should not be heard in public, again a matter of decency, and what happens in The GoGo bars and sometimes visible from the road, unfortunately that is called decay, a pity that is, but fortunately they are still exceptions. It is a pity that it is receiving so much international attention.
Moderator: Thanks, overlooked but now removed.
I'm green and yellow annoyed by visitors to Thailand who don't care about basic social norms. A tourist does not have to delve into all the finer points of local customs and beliefs, but learning and observing the basic do's and don'ts is not too much to ask.
I am regularly ashamed of the behavior of foreigners. I find it annoying for the Thai if they feel uncomfortable in their own country because of the behavior of foreigners. I also find it annoying for myself, because how I am judged by Thai people because of my white skin also depends on how other foreigners behave (that is not a criticism of the Thai, that is human). In my experience, the literally anti-social behavior of many foreigners reflects negatively on me.
Other examples from everyday life:
– Foreigners who are very loud in places and times where it is not appropriate for the Thai to be so overly present.
– Last week a young foreign couple was kissing extensively in a crowded skytrain. It went on and on for over ten minutes. The smack was so loud that you could literally hear it through the whole train set. So looking the other way didn't make much sense, because you could still hear it. I was really devastated.
– Foreigners who are verbally aggressive about the slightest thing. You don't have to let things go your way, but don't act like you're in your own living environment, where rude behavior may be the norm.
So that clears up 😉
And those examples you mention (being loud, kissing extensively in public transport and kicking stennus) are normal behavior adopted elsewhere? I do not think so. Then they are just individual less social people who either never show decency anywhere or throw the brakes loose on holiday.
As for prudishness, I hardly see any difference. Swimming with your clothes on is because of the sun, I wonder how many Thai people would sunbathe without a bra if they liked to lie in the sun. And with the number of people who do this in NL, I think it's not too bad, where you sometimes get vicarious shame. There is little prudishness to be found in the clothes on the street: young ladies in very short trousers that leave little to the imagination, yet not unattractive (school) uniforms, etc.
Peter, your statement challenges finger pointing.
Sorry, I'm not going to participate.
I'm actually much more interested in knowing how the readers' female Thai partners dress here on the beach: “Is she wearing a bikini or a full-body outfit? And if she wears a fully covering outfit, does she do that or would she do that if she is in the Netherlands or another Western country?
Mine wouldn't want to go to the beach if she was expected to wear full coverage.
Fortunately, she doesn't like crowded beaches as much as I do, so less people can take offense at her bikini.
Preferably she is topless, but only if we really have privacy.
I look forward to finally staying on an island with only 1 resort and a few Western tourists next week 😉
We live in NL and my wife prefers to go to the beach in jeans and a shirt. Jeans shorts are also fine, but she feels a bit uncomfortable in a bikini. That's just in it.
In Thailand she regularly goes to the beach in a bikini, but then she quickly puts a towel over it.
It may also be a bit more free from me, but I just respect it.
Anyone who has ever been to the Pattaya / Patong or the red light districts of Bangkok can imagine little of the prudish in Thailand.
But if Thais really mind topless, they can build a number of nude or naturist beaches, whatever you want.
Do we also have thousands of tourists here who like to walk without pants 🙂
First of all, I think nobody cares about the outcome of this question. This is a Thai affair. Next, I believe that if you decide to go on holiday to Thailand, you should respect the local customs.
However, I have been in Thailand for five years now and see a difference of opinion between the young and the elderly. Two years ago at the Sonkran festival, five young Thai girls (18-21) decided to take off their bikini tops. This was recorded by an English young man and put on Youtube. The next day this was a big scandal in Thailand. How could those girls happily dance around without a top of their bikini.
The outcome of the above was that the English young man was deported from the country and the five young girls were each fined five hundred baht. This year it was the neighborhood of the Katoi's, who celebrated the Songkran festival happily dancing without outerwear. Then in the last five years I saw the skirts of many young ladies, and young students studying at the many Universities in Bangkok get shorter and shorter. This caused and continues to cause great turmoil in the chastity departments of the various schools. This is not in agreement with Thai culture. However, this young girl group of 18-30 wants the same as girls from Europe or America. They also read the various fashion magazines displayed in the various shops in Bangkok and elsewhere in the country.
The average Thai is really not a prude, otherwise you will dress differently I think. However, do not forget that the average Thai businessman or elite has three or more concubines for his sexual pleasure. So I think it's a bit of a double standard. Women should behave in an exemplary manner and dress neatly, while Thai men enjoy themselves in the various massage houses and Karaoke bars, with the various ladies at their side. This behind closed doors of course and therefore especially without prying eyes. The above in full accordance with the Thai macho culture.
Finally, I think there is also a downside to tourism. Thailand has opened its borders to tourism. It is an important source of income for Thailand. Some Westerners do what they do and therefore walk or lie without outerwear. The trend is that Thai ladies now also want to dress more and more Western and thus go back in time, where it was the most normal thing in the world for the ordinary population to walk around without outerwear. Accordingly, in a few years, as in Europe and elsewhere in the world, you will see more and more naked breasts. This to the horror of the elite and elderly population in Thailand.
An excellent story from your Bernard. Nail on the head. You don't have to go far back in Thai history and you will find a Thai king with (approx.) 230 children. This king would have laid the stone for modern Thailand. You can interpret that as everyone wants to. In any case, this good man was not a prude.