Statement: 'It is a gross scandal that there are so many stateless people in Thailand'
Although Gringo already told a good and complete story about statelessness last Sunday, I think the subject is important enough to take a more emotional position with some more information.
The rescue of the thirteen 'Wild Zwijnen' football players from the Tham Luang gained worldwide fame. The joy was great. But soon the news broke that four of the group were stateless. These are the boys Adul Sam-on, Pornchai Kamluang and Mongkhol Boonpian and also the coach Ekapol Chantawong. I understand that the three boys applied for Thai nationality a long time ago.
We know the most about Adul. We know that he speaks four languages: English, Burmese, Chinese and Thai. We know he hails from the conflict-torn Wa region of northern Myanmar. We know that his parents brought him to Thailand at a very young age because of the dangerous conditions in his native country. This has drawn attention to the many stateless people in Thailand.
It is not entirely clear how many stateless people there are in Thailand. There are 438.821 stateless persons registered with the official authorities who are entitled to Thai nationality. But in addition there is a large group that is not registered and some estimates assume more than a million stateless people, but I also saw figures of 2-3 million. Half to a third are children. The largest group consists of the hill tribes in Northern Thailand, refugees from Myanmar and elsewhere and children of migrant workers.
Stateless means no proper access to education, health care and justice. No access to banking. No possibility of owning anything in full ownership. No possibility to travel much further than your place of residence. No opportunity for well-paid work. Constant confrontations with police and soldiers at the many checkpoints in the North. Exploitation through forced prostitution and human trafficking. Fortunately, most children now receive primary education and all receive basic health care.
What does the law in Thailand say about nationality? Those laws have changed many times over the past 70 years. Now the Nationality Act of 2008 applies, which says that people born in Thailand before 1992 can obtain Thai nationality. Children born after that must prove that one of their parents has Thai nationality.
The entire process of obtaining nationality is lengthy, difficult and expensive. It is not always possible to obtain the correct documents. A man of Thai nationality fathers a child with a stateless woman but then disappears with the northern sun. DNA tests must be paid by the applicants themselves and they cost 227 euros. A municipal official said his office can only process two applications per day. There is a lot of corruption in the procedures: asking for money, 'lost' documents, discrimination, etc. etc. The obstacles to obtaining Thai nationality, even for those who are entitled to it, are great, far too great.
In the past 4 years, only 23.000 stateless people have obtained Thai nationality. Despite this, the government promised in 2016 that the problem of the stateless will be solved by 2024.
This first editorial in the Bangkok Post of December 7, 2016, 'Plight of the stateless', describes the problems very penetratingly. She calls on the government to tackle the problem more vigorously. That appears not to be the case so far. The authorities are also very cautious about the four stateless cave boys: 'We have to follow the law', they say.
www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1153413/plight-of-the-stateless
Editorial Bangkok Post from July 14, 2018: www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/1503046/dont-drag-feet-on-stateless
Reply to the statement: "It's a scandal that there are so many stateless people in Thailand!"
It shows what Thais always try to hide, the terrible pride of the Thai as a people then comes to the fore in a negative way. and they hate that.
The stateless in Thailand are largely well integrated into Thai society and sometimes more Thai than the Thai themselves. But no stamped Thai will want to acknowledge this.
If we look at the refugee policy of the Thai government, the tenor is clearly Thailand for the real Thai and we can tow a Rohinga refugee boat back to the open sea.
Until we get on our roof from the rest or the world, then we give food and fuel.
But access to Thailand no, we don't go that far.
The Thai are hospitable people as long as you can behave as a guest, if you become or are a burden then the hospitality will disappear like snow in the sun and they will do everything they can to make your life miserable.
Unfortunately, Thailand is not alone, the surrounding countries also have similar ideas.
All guest workers in Thailand are often inferior in the eyes of the Thai and are expected to be as invisible as possible.
These are also subjects that the Thai prefer not to discuss, just like the class division of the country.
Should we rightly call the Thai for this, I would say yes. Let them know that they still have a lot to learn in this area of tolerance.
But that also applies to many other countries, which are increasingly isolating themselves from that part of the world's population that has been badly hit.
But to avoid the Thai for this is something that goes too far for me. Because I feel best in Thailand.
As long as I am tolerated or accepted to a greater or lesser extent, there is no more beautiful country than Thailand. So yes, I am also guilty of that Thai intolerance because I also want to belong.
“The terrible pride of the Thai people as a people then surfaces in a negative way”
I don't know the right word for this either, but it certainly isn't pride. Everyone knows what is happening and how to deal with these people. They look down on them and walk away when someone dies or dies in the street. It is poignant how people are exploited, killed on fishing boats (quartered), mistreated and flogged as slaves and the whole world watches. We all still “eat” the fish and shrimp with blood stuck to them. As long as we keep doing that, nothing will change in Thailand or anywhere else.
On the other hand, how does Europe deal with stateless people? Really not much better. There they bury their heads in the sand and look just as hard in the other direction. The world is just pretty fucked up in that regard.
I dispute that statelessness in Europe is not much better. What I read about the Netherlands is that they have certain rights, that the problem is recognized and that work is being done on it.
http://arno.uvt.nl/show.cgi?fid=131820
Take it from me, it's not much better. Go and see what is going on in Amsterdam or Rotterdam with failed asylum seekers who have been kicked out onto the streets. They no longer have any rights, only the right to leave and they don't do that. They also cannot work, vote, rent, etc. etc. The jacket may be different, but underneath there is no difference,
What nonsense to compare Europe with Thailand.
We give them food, clothing and shelter in Europe.
And what is stateless? They were born somewhere….
Stateless is when you do not (anymore) have any nationality. Many countries have agreed (via the UN?) that no one may become stateless. For example, you can lose Dutch citizenship, but that is not possible if you are no longer a national of any country. Someone with only Dutch nationality can therefore never lose Dutch nationality, someone who is Thai and Dutch can lose Dutch nationality for various reasons.
In Tino's piece it is about people who were themselves born in Thailand, but whose parents are not Thai (parents have fled Burma, for example). These children may have been born and raised in Thailand, but Thailand does not recognize them as citizens, does not grant them residence status as (asylum) migrant, etc. and the country of the parents does not simply recognize the children. In short, they are not seen as their citizens by any country, they do not have a passport and travel or other 'rights' is then difficult or simply impossible. Statelessness is a tragedy, hence the international agreements to combat it.
NB: I think you are confusing refugees (persons applying for asylum) with statelessness. Most asylum migrants simply have 1 or more nationalities, some try to conceal this, but if 'nationality unknown' is not yet equivalent to the status of statelessness.
That is all easily resolved.
Take an example from Belgium: there has already been more than once
the Snel-Belgwet applied.
Anyone who is illegal, or undocumented, or refugee, or Syrian fighter, or I-know-what,
acquires Belgian nationality on a certain day without any restriction.
This is how we are helping people – without nagging or pettiness.
After being stable at 40 million Belgians for 10 years,
suddenly we are already with 11 million. Amazing, right!
The more Belgians, the merrier!
And so many more taxpayers, right?
Fascinating speech.
A factual error: You claim that children born in Thailand after 1992 must be able to prove that one of their parents has Thai nationality.
This is not always the case. If one of the two parents resides in Thailand on the basis of a "temporary" permission to reside in the kingdom (i.e. a Thai pink ID card starting with a 6), the child can acquire Thai nationality at the age of 18 and, following this , also the parent who owns this pink ID card. It will be our turn for this in 9 years, Cambodian friends of ours have an 18-year-old daughter who has now become Thai in this way.
Furthermore, it is not easy for a country of 72 million people, many of whom are still poor, to formally take in 2-3 million people from neighboring countries: the majority of them are economic migrants. And we don't like that in Europe either.....
They are otherwise welcome for heavy work
You're right, Jasper, there are exceptions. I read the Thai Nationality Act but not all the rules, exceptions, restrictions, etc. The defining word is 'may'. From the stories I read it appears that there are so many obstacles, already difficult for someone with time, knowledge and money.
I also do not believe that you should give Thai nationality to all those 2-3 million stateless people in Thailand, but to those more than 400.000 who are already registered (like you).
The 2017 Thai Constitution says that only residents of Thailand with Thai nationality have rights. The Dutch Constitution grants rights to ALL residents (with a few exceptions such as voting rights).
The stateless in Thailand can at least get a residence permit with a view to nationality under certain conditions. Thailand is an aging society (and 1.6 child per woman) and that would help.
Jaspers,
I think that with the so-called pink ID card only applies to children with a parent from 1 of the neighboring countries Myanmar, Cambodia and Laos. That pink ID card was originally only meant as an ID for this group. On the back of this card it still says that you may only leave the district where you (temporarily) live with permission from the authorities.
I myself also have such an ID card, starting with an 8 instead of 6, 2 children in their 30s who have Thai nationality, but to be able to apply for Thai nationality, I really have to follow the normal procedure.
Peters,
It's not about me either! When I say "it's our turn" I mean as a family. I myself do not have the slightest need to apply for Thai nationality.
My wife is Cambodian with right of abode and, yes, that ridiculous district restriction. To report our son to the Dutch embassy in Bangkok, 6 official papers, 6 signatures, several thousand baht under the table and a promise to immediately report to the police upon arrival in Bangkok were required before my wife could get on the bus.
Yes totally agree, come and live here for 18 years and hope to live here until my death.
But that a lot is wrong in Thailand, and you are welcome but a burden then you are quickly done.
The tragedy with the boys makes that clear once again whether the Chinese who died.
The stark difference, both sad, but at first the boys all seemed officially Thai and the Chinese only tourists.
The general who shows up with a bunch of people to photograph him and tell parents don't forget to vote.
Knowing that I have no rights, I accept it, I like living here too much, but if I do something wrong, I can also be kicked out with a red stamp.
So of course I behave like a guest in this beautiful country, but it's fine that it is spoken.
Robert.
Otherwise all good to live here.
Well,
In September (short notice) all “cave” players and their trainers are invited to the World Football gala in London, which will be all about those “cave” players. So every news journalist from around the world is there. And then 4 will be missing??? due to stateless living in Thailand.
If Thailand wants to be negative in the world news, it will be in September. Or will the government intervene at the very last minute and issue a passport after all. Traveling without a passport is simply impossible.
I think the latter is happening and maybe all the commotion will change the rules.
But yes, this is Thailand.
Laksi
You also see people with an alien passport in the EU, I don't know if they also know this in Thailand?
Yes certainly. Granted a few years ago to a Burmese boy to go to the World Kite Championships after winning the Thai competitions.
That is of course bad. But if refugees are already being banned in the most prosperous parts of the world, should one then start playing the forerunner in a country like here, with much less financial possibilities?
I would like to, but fear that there would soon be a huge influx of people who also prefer Thai nationality … .
A rewarding task for the UN with the necessary resolutions attached to it.
The EU can also lend a hand, no better policy in this area than no more exports to the EU.
The EU will probably not do that, because then they will cut the fingers of the EU elite.
It is actually all easy to solve, but then you often hit the elite in their wallets and that is of course not allowed.
It is outrageous that you publish the names here, not yet heard of the privacy law.
Moreover, according to the Volkskrant of 2016, there are still 87.000 Statesless persons in the so-called prosperous Netherlands.
Solve it first in your own country before you bombard others with prejudice.
You forget one thing that those stateless people in Thailand are hard workers and also speak the language and you cannot say that about those stateless people in the Netherlands. These are aggressive unemployed people who do not want to adapt.
The names are on the internet, in the media. And who says that the Netherlands does not care for the stateless? Present facts without tooting your horn. Someone who is stateless is therefore not a national of a country, such as Palestinian refugees, Roma, Moluccans, from former Soviet republics, etc.. when I think about it, even the Dalai Lama is a stateless person.
Stateless people: Einstein, Anne Frank, Joseph, Mary and Jesus in Egypt, Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, Dalai Lama.
But we can all be happy that 3 or 4 quickly get Thai nationality, because invited to go to England, of course that only happens with THAILAND RESIDENTS, because that makes me feel Thailand like a dog with 2…… …..
There is of course no mention of 1 or 11 thai football player and 2 or 3 stanless football player.
The rules can then be changed within a nano second, no matter what mayor or governor says.
Our Prime Minister will take care of that.
Uuhh, does he have a dog too??
LOUISE
Burmese? I understood from a friend that Adul Adul (Adoel?) speaks or something like that and certainly not Burmese.
The new governor tells us that the boys have to go through the procedures like everyone else. Agreed, just an exception for these boys (no matter how much they deserve it!!) wouldn't be nice. I hope that with this attention, the Thai government will establish a more humane nationality law and provide Thai nationality to all those who find themselves between the cracks. Or if that is not possible for reasons of your own, then at least a residence status (asylum?) so that one can 'normally' live, work, train, travel, etc.
If you read about the abuses in the Thai border area, for example the book 'Ethnicity, Borders and the grassroots interface with the state' and then the chapter 'Contested Citizenship' or articles about this on, for example, The Matter (Thai language, Google translate) etc. I feel sad and ashamed that these kinds of things still happen today and on such a scale. That's a real shame for a self-respecting country if you ask me.
They (the football players) have gotten themselves into trouble.
As far as I am concerned, there is no question of “earning”, but of awarding and given that the Thai robbery is at least as opportunistic as the Dutch robbery, it will also happen.
It would be so much better if everyone who is currently already entitled to citizenship gets it first.
Then one can make a positive contribution, while that is now being blocked.
Then you can look at a solution for the rest of the stateless.
Kevin totally agrees the Dutch finger.
But how do you think you can solve it in the Netherlands? Deportation has a problem cannot be brought across the border as unwanted persons. Then if they succeed, they will come back via a detour. Do you still have those who also have to leave and just stay and then suddenly become pathetic on the news and newspapers and an exception has to be made.
But that's not your problem, is it?
As long as human traders make a good living with it, it will stay, and by calling the family at home it is so much better than there.
Have you certainly never spoken to a Thai who had a negative opinion about the Netherlands? The Thai finger?
Something for a blog series* Tino?: quote various Thais and what they think of the Netherlands and the Dutch. From Thai rose-colored glasses Thais who praise us to the heavens to vinegar-pissing Thais with sour faces. 🙂 This can range from bar talk level to substantiated opinions. We now know the broad range of opinions that Dutch people have about Thais, but what about the other way around?
* a year or 2 you have done something like this as a comment under an article:
https://www.thailandblog.nl/cultuur/thaise-cultuur-geert-hofstede/#comment-458633
Is it about perception or about Thais who really know something about the Dutch and the Netherlands, for example because they live or have lived there?
Both, I think. At least I personally enjoy reading both prejudices (based on images) and actual observations from Dutch people about Thai and Thailand. For example, I barely had an image of Thailand on my first visit (jungle, rice fields, a few elephants, chaotic traffic with motorbikes). Others think of prostitution when they think of Thailand (I didn't think about that until I came to Pattaya, I didn't know that this was the case in Thailand). But just as interesting is the wide range of views of people who have been working in the country for several years. So far otherwise I have an angry blog dictator chasing me for derailing a blog. 🙂
There's probably more to be found but I'm tired...
To what extent do the Thais in the Netherlands think and talk about Dutch conditions? I've been looking for something. I found this FB page:
1 คนไทยในเนเธอร์แลนด์ translated: Thai in the Netherlands
What are they talking about? Now, of course, about the death of King Bhumibol. But there was also attention for cycling culture in the Netherlands ('should we do it in Thailand too!'), water management, Prinsjesdag, the yellow tulip called 'Bhumibol', study options, sports, about 'The World Turns Door'. windmills, cheese, Baan Hollandia in Ayutthaya, retirement homes in the Netherlands, TSAN (Thai Student Association in the Netherlands), Geert Wilders, political demonstrations of red and yellow shirts in The Hague (2014), BBC Thai and a lot about nightlife and food……
And this one:
2 https://www.dek-d.com/studyabroad/28630/
About dolmens, schools, Red Light District, kale with Gelderland sausage, snow and Zwarte Piet.
some quotes:
'In the schools here they learn to think and not just memorize'
'The Dutch talk straight to the point!'
"They often look down on us when we don't know something."
and this one:
3 https://www.thailandblog.nl/dagboek/twee-thaise-jongens-nederlanden/
4 About etiquette in the Netherlands
http://www.hotcourses.in.th/study-in-netherlands/destination-guides/etiquette-in-netherlands/
And then this one on the most visited Thai blog:
5 ผู้ชายชาวดัตซ์ (เนเธอร์แลนด์) นิสัยใจคอเป็ More information
Translated : The character of Dutch men seen through the eyes of Thai women.
http://pantip.com/topic/32269519
Twenty-four honest answers… from diligent, frugal (don't like to spend on luxury things), straight-talking (the Thais also say that) to ill-mannered and impolite but honest…smart to cunning and cunning…
And on another website that I couldn't find anymore:
Scandalous those nudist beaches where even couples make love!
Tino, that is certainly true that Thais have negative opinions, you can also try to read carefully here and that it was said here that the so-called prosperous Netherlands also has no solution.
If you read better and don't just add something as a pastime that nothing has been said about.
Then I'm talking about if someone has to say something right, the Thais too, I hope I think it's lame.
Illegal residents/stateless, a problem of all countries.
At the moment it is on the priority lists and presumably something will be arranged for the cave youths who are therefore stateless.
But we do exactly the same in the Netherlands. We even have a name for this: asylum seekers. And we put these in asylum centers. And yes, if the papers are not in order, they go back or into the illegal circuit.
The opinion that Thailand is lacking in humanity in this area is absolutely wrong.
They have rules. And obtaining nationality is a long-term history. But the IND also has procedures that can take years. And yes, sometimes a protest action helps.
France also recently gave someone direct citizenship for services rendered.
But how difficult is it for us Dutch people to become Thai citizens?
Let the Thai have his way. It's their country and it's their rules.
We must respect this.
And in that case, the person who has the right to vote in the Netherlands could have voted for parties that are for or against the asylum seekers.
The current Thai government recently asked to have more children in the context of the aging of the population and the future decline in the working population. There will be a tax deduction, to the extent that it is useful to you in Thailand, for a second child. Personally, I am in favor of giving the entire group of stateless people Thai nationality in one go. Solve the problem from both sides. And they are already there and are part of society and with the assigned nationality more rights become available, for example access to universities and high schools, availability of Thai-speaking people for regular jobs everywhere in Thailand instead of limited to the region where they live. More training opportunities always contribute to improving the economy, so prosperity, well who can be against that.
Stay away from Thai politics anyway. As if it is so well organized elsewhere in the world. Typical weather dar Dutch finger > you shouldn't do that dude. Of course, in that respect, and many others, Thailand is not perfect. Name me a country in the world where everything is well organized.
That's right, none.
And here it is fully admitted that among the rescued cave people, there are 4 who are stateless. In the Netherlands you have to hear that after 10 years because eg RTL has appealed to the WOB.
That sneaky Calvinist behavior is strange to people in Thailand.
Stateless is a sad thing, but is it all Thailand's fault?
The people are often refugees, so the blame starts with the people and the country they fled from.
Just as is happening now with the Muslims from Burma.
Can you then expect another country to solve all the problems?
The Netherlands is just as hypocritical.
The people from Africa must apply for asylum in the country of arrival.
That is of course nice and easy, because they usually do not make a boat trip to Scheveningen, but to Italy and Greece.
If the refugees were to sail to Rotterdam on cruise ships at the same time, the Netherlands would suddenly think very differently.
I like to discuss, also with my students, and also using statements. I teach them to first look up the facts, to always look at the matter from both sides and only then to make a judgment about the statement. So I can't do much with words like 'a gross scandal' (an extremely emotional expression that says more about the person who writes it than about the subject) and 'so much' as the explanation does not make it clear at all in what numbers. stateless people are really going on in Thailand. Yes, estimates. I checked the internet and the UNHCR estimates that there are 10-12 million unregistered stateless people worldwide. Can't imagine that 2-3 million of them live in Thailand alone, given the many wars and refugees over the past 30-40 years (particularly in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa) that have had to leave their country abandoned leaving everything behind, including papers.
The core of the problem is not statelessness (the stateless people in Thailand did not choose to be stateless like Einstein or became stateless by law like Anne Frank) but the fact that a large number of Asian countries (including Thailand) have not signed the Geneva Refugee Convention. have signed. This means that refugees (of whatever nature) have no status, become stateless by definition if they cannot show an ID or passport and have no rights (such as the right to asylum and the right to protection and the right to basic facilities such as medical care and education). .
A first step towards a solution for the stateless is to sign the Refugee Convention and then consider on a case-by-case basis whether a refugee can be granted asylum status or Thai nationality. If matters such as background and birthplace are not (anymore) so clear, the refugee can, in my opinion, be given the benefit of the doubt. It will also be easier to determine which Thais have wrongly or even criminally benefited from them in the entire process of becoming and remaining stateless (drug dealing, human trafficking, etc.). So not a form of amnesty or dispensation for everyone.
If the Thai government wants to show the world that they are a great nation, they can prove it by granting these stateless people Thai nationality, starting with the rescued footballers.
If the French president heard that a refugee who was staying illegally in the country saved a child from a five-high balcony and he immediately gave him the French identity and a job with the fire brigade, then that should also be possible in Thailand.
Don't forget Thailand the world is watching.
Saving a child from a high balcony really seems a bit different to me than being careless to go into a cave while that is strongly discouraged in rainy season, activate thousands of people to save you.... not to mention all the costs.
The Thai government is not going to provide all stateless citizens who cause an accident on their moped and can go home after days of hospital with Thai nationality because they did not die????
This rescue has (unintentionally) drawn attention to the problem of stateless people in Thailand. It is now up to the Thai government to come up with a real solution. Heroes are only all the people who contributed to the rescue. Yes, the boys were strong but not heroes.
Italy and Spain also make extensive use of the many illegal workers from sub-Saharan Africa. In fact, without this extremely cheap labor one cannot compete with the rest of the world.
Those hundreds of thousands from Africa then just give a schengen passport?
Incidentally, they are suddenly not so cheap anymore, just like in Thailand, the minimum wage must be paid. Road competitive position.
I totally agree with Chris' last sentence.
And why, you don't hear anything else in the news here in Thailand lately about the 13 young heroes and their coach.
I get annoyed by that every day.
They, the group of children and the coach have put themselves in danger and in trouble.
They were all strong and courageous to spend days without food and in the pitch dark and cold, and above all not to forget that they lived in limbo in order to be found and then rescued at all.
But heroes no.
The Heroes are the rescuers, whether it was the divers or the people who kept the pumps running.
Heroes are rescuers, not victims
Heroes are liberators think of D day in Normandy operation overlord.
Or in the Netherlands operation market garden , the bridge at Arnhem .
Thailand also has many heroes who provide assistance daily in all those terrible traffic accidents that you see over and over again.
Let Prayuth also invite these people for a beach holiday or something like that.
I am afraid that, just like with the daily number of traffic victims, nothing will be done about this.
Yesterday I drove up and down from Pasang to HangDong with my wife to do some shopping, a return trip of around 70 km, on different types of roads.
And the number of police officers or police vehicles we saw during this trip was ZERO comma Zero
Jan Beute.
l
As Rob V has mentioned before, there can be substantial differences between persons who are stateless and asylum seekers. Of course it can also go together. The subject here is limited to the group of stateless persons. Groups of stateless people can be found everywhere, including in Thailand. How one deals with this problem is up to the national governments, but of course there are legal rules and they are interpreted and applied differently everywhere. There are of course also local problems that prevail in many cases. Where there is a will to help, there are opportunities. Involvement and humanity often die when other interests predominate. The financial picture is certainly leading, but of course there is a lot of potential in fellow human beings and it can also be beneficial to include them as Thai citizens. It's just how you look at it.
It is especially important for children that they receive education and help where they need it. But everyone should have a dignified existence. That is a duty of every (adult) person to understand and act accordingly.
It should also be clear that no one was actually born stateless. Humans are not from another planet as far as I know. So for children born in Myanmar to parents with that nationality, that country is in principle obliged to recognize this and provide documents. Parents are often also stateless. Then it becomes a lot more problematic from a legal perspective. Who feels responsible for this? The fact that this is not simple and that there is often controversy from the past about whether or not you have legal residence in the country of origin, does not make it any better or easier. The same of course applies to the Muslim group in Myanmar, but in fact we can list a laundry list here. The injustice done to many people continues. As Tino already indicated, the option to issue a residence document after a period and under conditions is a first step and it is possible that nationality can be applied for later. Doing nothing and looking away is highly reprehensible and as far as I am concerned, this behavior must come to an end. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening anytime soon.