Earlier this week, the editors of Thailandblog ran an article from Nu.nl, which dealt with an investigation by two university offices, commissioned by the senior citizens' association ANBO, into the conditions of pensioners. The editors asked for comments.
What strikes me in the responses to this article, and generally in responses to similar articles about incomes and euro-baht exchange rates, is that when the words “retirees” and “Thailand” coincide, the association “complain” is added. . Then it quickly becomes: pensioners in Thailand are complaining! One wonders if those who think such an association is the right one are not really just driven by simple quibble?
Among the many reactions, one commenter rightly remarked that you cannot just put the Dutch situation 1 on 1 on Thailand. Then you have to make a thorough comparison. He is right: just off the cuff or from the drinks table gives a skewed picture, but on the other hand, a discussion does not always have to be academic. Nevertheless, it is good to consider items as disposable income with the necessary relativity. Not everyone is able to look at the Thailand pensionado situation with that in mind. It is doubtful whether you can live so lavishly in Thailand with a state pension and small pension. People apparently think the opposite: in absolute terms, pensioners were ascribed the qualifications of complainers and whiners, it is suggested that pensioners are drinking beer and panache, only embracing the cheap life and cheap sex and in Thailand only with pleasures and no further burdens. And if you don't like it: well, then pack your bags!
Well, it doesn't matter: the grumblers on pensioners only do what they blame the other. Something with pot and kettle! Forgive them.
However, there is another more sinister side to the matter. Continuing to perpetuate the fiction and repeat the mantra that life in Thailand consists only of cheapness, which they see confirmed in euro-baht rates, could mean throwing arguments into the laps of ill-wishers. politicians, that things are not going so fast with the cutting back on the heights of AOW amounts.
After all, all those grumblers confirm the image that with an old-age pension in Thailand, for example, a lice's life is still possible. And that is precisely the opposite of what the ANBO wanted to demonstrate. This does concern all pensioners, not just those in Thailand, so also in the Netherlands.
In my response to the Nu.nl article, I listed the extremely limited increase in the state pension since 2008. If, according to the many grumblers of pensioners, this is more than enough, one should realize that one is cutting into one's own flesh. Either that politicians continue to muddle through with cuts in state pension and pension amounts, and all pensioners will be permanently affected. Or that even more foreign deductions from the AOW and pension benefits will be worked out via the (new) tax system, so that a stay in Thailand or elsewhere is only possible for the more well-to-do.
For grumblers who were planning to move to Thailand in the long term, it is also day with the hand. Did they take care of it themselves?
Submitted by Soi
If you agree or disagree with the statement, explain why and respond.
Government policy has been focusing on expats for some time now.
Probably mainly due to the export of benefits from former guest workers to Morocco and Turkey, because a lot of money can be made that way.
The government is really not going to write separate laws for those few thousand Dutch people in Thailand.
At the most, some things will happen in the revisions of tax treaties.
Complaining about the level of the state pension in Thailand I think is a bit exaggerated.
People with only state pension in the Netherlands are really no better off and have hardly any options to cut back on anything, because the fixed costs such as rent, gas, light and water and other levies that you cannot avoid already cover such a large part of the gobble up old age pension.
In Thailand you can adjust the expenditure of the state pension more by living cheaper.
What people in the Netherlands still have are the supplements on that AOW.
But without those benefits, you would already have to sleep in a cardboard box under the bridge in the Netherlands with only AOW, because that AOW alone is not sufficient to live in the Netherlands.
If what you say is true: government policy has been targeting expats for some time now.”, it would be wise of you to cite the source. How do you get that science in question, for example? With regard to “former guest workers heading to Morocco and Turkey”, the Fed-up Act applies to them, as does the Country of Residence Principle. In addition: the day before yesterday someone asked on this blog how many euros one can live on in TH? Pensioners with a Single Disability Insurance Act (WAO) of around 1000 euros will have a hard time, if you consider that you already spend at least 25% of your budget for decent health insurance, whether that is obtained from NL or TH. With this I refer your other phrase: At most, some things may happen in the revisions of tax treaties”, also for the sake of convenience, to the realm of fables. Reporting that: “In Thailand you can adjust your state pension expenditure more by living cheaper” really makes no sense!
Dear Soi.
A link at your request.
To the Elsevier(2012):
http://www.elsevier.nl/Politiek/nieuws/2012/11/Kabinet-wil-einde-maken-aan-uitkeringen-naar-Marokko-ELSEVIER355916W/
And this one from 2014:
http://www.elsevier.nl/Nederland/nieuws/2014/9/Asscher-dreigt-met-opzeggen-verdrag-Marokko-1595933W/
I also had a house built here a few years ago.
Not that big, but including lifelong use of the land (+/- 20 X 20 meters) it cost me about 20.000 Euros.
I get food brought twice a day for 120 Baht.
The third time I eat bread, because I miss it if I don't eat it every day.
Yes, health insurance is expensive.
But the electricity and water costs almost nothing.
I also do not have municipal taxes.
Hoogheemraadschap tax is also unknown.
The tax authorities here still don't want to know me despite two attempts.
Garbage collection costs me 20 Baht per month.
The bank also does not charge me any costs (no debit card taken)
The doctor's post in the village didn't want any money from me recently either, but I had to pick up my yellow book first.
So it seems to me personally that the costs are not too bad compared to the Netherlands.
If I have to spend 1000 Euros per month, I have to do my best considerably better than I do now.
What nonsense, dear Ruiud. I think it is just as difficult for state pension recipients in the Netherlands as it is in Thailand. And don't forget Ruud, the people in Thailand have another problem? If they are not married, they must meet the requirement of a minimum income of 65.000 baths.
Otherwise it's on the run. In the Netherlands, as you yourself indicate, they have extra surcharges.
We don't have that in Thailand. And then they have the food bank where they can go.
I wouldn't know what the AOW tractors could cut back on. Because Thailand is no longer the cheap country it once was. I find it very ridiculous that people still assume that life in Thailand is so cheap. At least if you stay in Thailand according to the current legal rules of the Netherlands. So deregistered. I would say take a good look around first and experience it.
And only then judge. Fairytales have long since ceased to exist.
Ruud.
I think you're a handsome guy that you can just look into someone else's wallet.
I don't think you can, but you make it seem that way.
learn to speak for yourself and not for others.
Every income is different so think before you speak.
What I regret is that “people” in The Hague” do not take into account pensioners abroad and therefore also in Thailand, who maintain a “family”.
As a retiree abroad and cohabiting, you immediately receive 50% of the minimum wage, while in Thailand, for example, the income (if any) of the other half is not taken into account.
Nor that the pensioner is seen as a walking ATM in Thailand and can therefore also pay the school costs for the kids and the telephone bill of the mothers, and oh yes, the scooter payment for the unemployed brother, etc.
Life in Thailand may be cheaper than in the Netherlands, but for many retirees there are many, say many, additional costs.
While in the European community and Cap Verde, there is a Dutch health insurance, in the rest of the world you have to find out for yourself. Commercial companies with high profits subtly respond to this. But at the expense of the pensioner.
If all pensioners in the world now all vote for the senior union and all pensioners in Thailand become members of this union, only then can you make a fist in The Hague, because let's face it, if the health insurance funds make a contract with the government's hospitals here in Thailand, then the costs for these health insurance funds are certainly manageable.
Nico
Dear Nico, I fully agree with you that organizations for the elderly such as ANBO receive more support from pensioners, for example in TH. This makes them stronger to also give more political power. All pensioners are lucky that an elderly party is active in The Hague, (although I am not too keen on the foreman. He does not seem to be too concerned with money flows.) Too bad! Initiatives are underway at European level. The most famous is that of years ago when politicians were forced through legal procedures to allow pensioners outside the Netherlands but within the EU the possibility of keeping the Dutch health insurance fund. That was a great win. A European initiative is also underway to secure pensions outside the Netherlands. Unfortunately, nothing is noticeable on a global level. Will have to do with distances and impossibilities of contact, although in 2015 through the internet (video conference, for example) those distances become minimal, and contact is possible.
Where I do not fully agree with you is that the costs of a telephone for a mother-in-law are included in the general living costs of a pensioner in TH. Someone chooses that. The same if someone takes on the payment of a scooter from an unemployed brother, etc. All personal choices. It may be that someone is being put under pressure, but he is also there himself. In short: there are those who should stop behaving like a pussy!
As a Belgian, I find it difficult to get involved with the AOW/Pension system and the measures taken by the Dutch government. But when I read the responses I do have reservations. Why not also hold the Dutch government responsible for the fact that the beer, wine, bitterballen, peanut butter... for the Dutch residents of Thailand. is so expensive. That the wife, sometimes 30 - 40 years younger, no longer has an income because she can no longer work in a bar. That the buffalo is sick or dead, that the brother-in-law needs a lot of money to pay for a sex transformation, that the sister-in-law is in prison for drug use, that the father-in-law, with a piece in his collar, drove his car to hell. Perhaps they should introduce a special index for Dutch expats in Thailand and take into account all these self-induced circumstances to satisfy these whiners so that their AOW/Pension can be adjusted in a timely manner to the very expensive living conditions in Thailand. Take a moment to think within yourself and ask yourself who is really responsible for the fact that many here have an income that is multiples of the global resident of the country in which you now live and think that it is all unjust and inadequate.
Lung addie
Relative to other population groups, Dutch pensioners are doing quite well because many have a pension next to it and/or own a house. The Dutch government is rapidly correcting this. Furthermore, this government has little interest in citizens evading the Dutch tax regime by living abroad. This is not illogical because the state pension rights were built up in the Netherlands and thanks to the social paradise that was created mainly under the influence of trade unions and left-wing governments.
It is therefore not wise to assume that the government will stand up for the problems of citizens who deliberately withdraw from their influence by settling abroad. Those who do so must therefore ensure that they are sufficiently armed against adverse changes in the provisions from their home country, because neither the Netherlands nor Thailand feels obliged to offer you a carefree existence. It doesn't seem right to me that grumblers bring it on themselves. The government cares little whether or not there is grumbling. The tide is turning and it is up to the retiree to change course.
'Not that the pensioner is seen as a walking ATM in Thailand and can therefore also pay the school costs for the kids and the telephone bill of the mothers, and oh yes, the scooter payment for the unemployed brother, etc.'
It is nonsense to charge those additional costs to 'The Hague'. 🙁
Eh yes that is whining and complaining.
it's always the same song when this topic comes up so many people so many opinions that will never change. everyone talks from his own situation and some have little understanding for others. Often these are the people who are not financially bad and can easily talk in this regard. The point is that the government time and again outdoes itself by taking measures that contradict the promises made in the past. the government is totally unreliable and that is partly because democracy does not work. there are too many political parties, due to the fact that certain groups did not feel represented. we need a party that represents the people in all its sections. I am still waiting for the measure to set up two Dutch passports. one for the Dutch in the Netherlands and one for the Dutch abroad. The last passport is then of less value because we are certainly the runaways here in Thailand and can get by with less. We are entitled to that. tribute to those who elected the government and hoping that they themselves do not get the lid on the pot. long live europe because that is the best thing that happened to us and the worst is yet to come unless the brakes are applied
Soi, you have put the dots on the i! The results of the university bureau's survey showed that from 2008 to 2013, pensioners' incomes fell by 6%. Even after this period, pensions have not been increased and that does not appear to be the case for the future. Some believe that pensioners should definitely not complain about this, they should sit quietly in a corner and keep their mouths shut. But, as you rightly point out, those grumblers on pensioners themselves are only too happy to complain, especially about the fact that the state pension age is being raised. Others believe that today's pensioners have been "benefiting" all their lives, where they get that from is a mystery to me. “School trips” and farewell parties abroad, designer clothes, I-pads, tablets, a new scooter at 16, etc. we didn't have, at most a 2nd hand Puch with self-earned money from side jobs. I am certainly not jealous, times change. Like many of my peers (66 years young), I started working around the age of 17 and luckily I was able to do so for 48 years and save for my retirement. In the first instance, staying at home, the six of us in a tiny house, was obvious because even then there was a housing shortage. Doing an evening study in your spare time to achieve more was also quite normal. Bought a house in 1974 for 65.000 hard guilders, so given the average earnings for that time of about 800 guilders p/m, certainly not for next to nothing. The value of 65.000 guilders at the time is now equivalent to approximately 92.000 euros (see http://www.iisg.nl). Mortgage interest rates of over 10% were no exception and the pension pots were also well filled due to the high interest rates. Some pension funds were looted, including the ABP by the government. Interest rates are now low and, although the pots are fuller than ever due to good investment results, most pensions are no longer indexed due to the calculation methods imposed by the government.
The current pensioners are the victims of this, but of course also the future pensioners. So we should not stand against each other, but rather shoulder to shoulder to get pensions indexed annually in everyone's interest! I also agree with Soi that there is a wrong image about pensioners in Thailand. A few will probably live in luxury, but most will still manage to get by on their state pension and average pension. Pathetic? No, definitely not! Thailand was chosen for various reasons and that does not always have to be a material choice.
As a Belgian I cannot comment on NL situations, except a defense against the always Thailand choice, my mother could her BE. give your pension some extra value by moving to the then cheap Spain, just 24 hours by Europa bus to get there, or back for minimal costs, now you no longer have to go there as an average pensioner due to their euro introduction, so stay alone the distant countries are still within the margin. Where can you go cheaply outside SEA? Ah yes, the Balkan countries or eastern Europe... any enthusiasts...?
This is in defense of the Thailand choice, and not always about the cheap sex, because it has a following (family) that can usually be very expensive!
Well, I personally don't lose sleep over what people write (also in the previous article “Dutch pensioner). People living in the Netherlands have a prejudice about pensioners
people living in Thailand. Most come with a completely unsubstantiated story.
Many retirees have houses with swimming pools. Sold their house in the Netherlands FOR 4X
THE VALUE OF THE PURCHASE, etc. I live here and I can judge that. It's not as nice as the one who sits behind the computer in Belgium or the Netherlands and has also been on holiday in Thailand. Worse still those who have never been there themselves. Can you post a comment on the blog?
I think it is important what the pensioners who live in Thailand have to say.
Lamentation about the generation that now has to work until the age of 67 must confess to themselves.
Our generation (those with their own houses and of course many more rental properties) like my father and me
fought for a better life. In the beginning there were no unions Strike to the bitter
end. Almost out of food. Everything our generation has built is now being demolished.
Have those figures who now have to continue until they are 67 ever taken to the streets?
Leave us in peace in Thailand. My grandfather always said, have I ever asked you for a slice of bread? Finally, I would like to add that many pensioners (like me) still pay tax in the Netherlands.
Cor van Kampen.
In the UK they are fair with AOW benefits!! Every year you receive a raise that depends on 3 factors, of which the highest percentage is awarded. 1/ CPI Consumer price index 2/ Average increase of earnings percentage 3/ 2,5% So you have at least 2,5% and certainly no reduction. ! Why is this not possible in the Netherlands?? Because there are too many parties in the Netherlands that all want to go in a different direction, or party politics do not think in the interests of the people, on the contrary, people always think about where we can skim off something and then the problem quickly arises. Aow'ers thought that they have no defense after all. Actually, we are just a measly people in that regard!
Fortunately , I have already seen the storm coming in the past .
This was partly due to advice from my father and an old neighbor of mine, who already took care of your financial reserve for later when you get older.
This was not said to the deaf at the time.
Have saved a lot, etc., also with long-term life insurance policies.
And indeed now you see it, all the social old age rules of the past are now being changed.
Only to your detriment.
As a simple example, the increase from 65 to 67 years for the state pension.
This does mean that you have to be able to live on your own fat for another 2 years longer.
Indeed, if you still want to be able to survive in Thailand in a normal way of life, then AOW and a small company pension are nowhere near sufficient anymore.
And then you also have to deal with the exchange rate fluctuations.
Here too you have to free up money (save in a Thai bank) to cover yourself, as it is now due to the low Euro exchange rate.
I therefore think that some compatriots do not have it too wide here in Thailand at the moment.
And the worst is yet to come with the austerity policies of the present and last Dutch cabinets.
Jan Beute.
I'm afraid that by the time I can retire it won't be until the age of 70 (it will take another 22 years) and we must have saved really well, especially as a self-employed person. And whether you will still be reasonably well off in Thailand by then is the question, especially when you see how much more expensive Thailand has become in the past 10 years, it could well be disappointing…
I would like to point out here that premiums have been paid for the AOW and that one can at least demand that the premiums paid are reimbursed. This is not done, okay, but the benefit is. I remember that in the 70s the premium for the AOW was collected with hell and damnation and for this reason I also think it is only normal that the benefit is paid out as usual. But yes, this is ignored these days because the gang of robbers in the Netherlands has indoctrinated the population in such a way that the AOW can also be cut in favor of a bunch of boat refugees, including the IS, who enter without a passport and without a visa and then to transfer mountains of money to Greece to try to realize the fixed idea of a United States of Europe. This is completely impossible given the differences in culture, language, economic situation in the countries, etc. I would also like to point out that Dutch health insurance is very expensive because a portion of tax is included in the premium. It is better to simply take out Thai or other foreign insurance and also study the policy conditions carefully. I think it will be cheaper then.
It strikes me that every week something about aow, pensions and cost of living is written on this block. Why ? no idea. It seems as if people do not allow it that the Dutch want to take away their money, which they have saved their lives for and are entitled to. It's not complaining, it's what we deserve. It has nothing to do with taking someone else's. Just look at other countries. they do have basic health insurance and can always return if major surgery is required. Well, if the Netherlands does not want that, people should also stay away from our savings. That's why I also ask thailand blog not to talk about aow or pensions and or tax every week.
Personally, I think that a blog is there to help each other and not to keep pushing each other down. Keep it a thailand blog and not a swear blog from the Netherlands
Again about aow, yesterday about prices and tomorrow about taxes?
People are trying to catch foreigners from all sides. As immigrants, let's stand up for each other and not tell everything every time, because there are many people here who provoke us as visitors to Thailand. A pensioner in the Netherlands complains, is not complaining, is entitled to and is one allowed to say something? Even people who have never been to Thailand talk about everything.
The Dutch let them walk all over them.
Give away our state pension to the southern countries in europe. and then you can't say anything.
so strongly disagree with the statement. This is another form of getting to know more about the retiree in thailand
ff for the Dutch in the Netherlands, currently many farangs are going back because the exchange rate of euro / bath is not good.
I see two types of pensionadas around me
1. The expat who has lived. As a rule, with a good understanding of the country, a piggy bank and a pension, not being his state pension, which is often very unfairly curtailed for him by working abroad.
2. The fortune seeker with very often limited resources, sometimes even only a state pension. This often includes second, third or even more starters with Trijntjes in Holland who also try to hang on to him. Then I sometimes think of the well-known donkey and the stone.
As for the fortune seekers, and you often see them on this board, you wonder what they are getting themselves into. A cheap house and then IN THAILAND (?) trying to get a mortgage from the bank? Bank narges are rude high here. http://www.kasikornbank.com/EN/Personal/Loans/KHomeLoan/Pages/KHomeLoanKasikorn.aspx
6.5 or more % and then also house chanoot at the bank and that while you only get 2% for deposits with the greatest effort.
I also think that the very low Kuh Teow form of life is praised too much here in Thailand. Living that way gives a completely different meaning to the saying “falling low.” With something like 1500 euros to spend, don't do it, just stay in Holland with social safety nets and come to Thailand once a year on the cheap for two weeks.
The smart, who does not care about the draconian tax system and systematic patronizing in Holland, leaves "with the living" and is smart enough not to pay taxes and other shit anywhere. I often fall off my chair when I see how people wriggle in all kinds of corners to keep paying taxes in the Netherlands or Thailand. Don't be so stupid.
Now take health insurance. Major operations in Thailand cost a few hundred thousand baht, a stint for example. Now you have people who, without blinking an eye, pay between 300 and 500 euros per month for a health insurance policy that charges a premium based on Western European hospital prices. I am going to stop my Bupa, needed for work contracts, visiting the USA, because they only go on until the age of 70 and increase the premium considerably every year for the big hits insurance, hospital only. now to 62.000 baht per year, next year 75.000. If you save premiums for 4 years, you can pay a lot of hospital costs from that pot. Am I the only one who sees it this way? 400 euros per month, 200.000 baht per year????
But back to the topic, don't grumble about pensionadas because this is often jealousy in disguise
Dear Marcus,
I don't know what your figures are based on, but I find them inaccurate and certainly exaggerated. 1500Euro/month to "dig" : don't do it. I have been living in Thailand for quite some time and with 1500 Euro/month I can live very carefree here. I do have a nest egg and don't sit in the bars every day from morning to evening. I live in the countryside and outside all the city bustle, close to the sea too.
The health insurance of 75.000THB/year. I am also a 60 plus person, but I have not yet had to pay such an amount, I do not even pay half of what you write or do you mean for yourself AND your wife? Which company did you end up with? However, the amount of cover that my insurance guarantees is not the least, more than sufficient…
Give people correct information
Lung addie