Statement of the week: 'Bargirls are not pathetic'
A bold statement this time. Whoever reads the reactions on Thailandblog dealing with the 'loaded' subject of 'bargirls', gets the impression that there are two camps.
The first camp says, they sacrifice themselves and work in the bar to support the family. The other camp is convinced of less noble intentions. The ladies find it especially easy to earn money this way. Clearly less tiring than standing in a factory or on a rice field in the blazing sun.
Another nuance could be that there are two types of barmaids (and variants of those two) with their own motives. That would also explain the strong opinion of the two camps.
Exploitation
When you surf the internet or listen to the stories of outsiders, you come across many nonsense stories about the phenomenon of barmaids. The prejudices and clichés should help the ignorant to understand the motives. The average tourist has his own image of this circus: poor girls from the countryside who, out of misery, choose to spoil older gentlemen. And because we like to stand up for the weak, this form of exploitation by outsiders from the west is strongly condemned.
However, if you take a look at the depraved places yourself, you will soon come to a different conclusion. The ladies don't look pathetic at all. No, in fact they often have the greatest fun. Perhaps it is the same mask as that of the famous smile. Of course there can be a lot of suffering under that cheerful smile. In Thailand it's just not what it seems. That's definitely something I don't want to downplay.
Make money
However, in my opinion the country offers enough opportunities to earn your living in a 'normal' way. In Bangkok you can do unskilled work, such as cleaning offices and there is a reasonable salary for Thai standards: 9.000 baht per month and that is certainly no exception.
I also know a beautiful young lady who cleans a complex with condos in Pattaya. She does not have to work hard, works normal days (from 0.800 hours to 17.00:7.000 hours) and receives 1.200 baht for this. She works with three colleagues. Twice a month they sell the waste that they neatly sort and that also yields 9.400 baht per person. So she has a monthly salary of XNUMX baht. Not greasy, but not bad for Thai standards either. And now it comes, they can hardly find any staff for that work. Many ladies in Pattaya, especially the younger ones, still choose the bar. Simply because they find it easier.
Options
In my opinion, the step to bar life is therefore often a well-considered and rational choice. A trade-off between the available options. Driven by poverty? That kite only goes up if there are absolutely no alternatives. And there are Thailand. I regularly speak to farang who are looking for a Thai housekeeper, willing to pay well for it, but can't find them.
Is it always a party in or at the bar in Pattaya or Phuket? No of course not. In the end, the ladies want a normal life, a family, a house and preferably a (rich) farang who takes care of them. But until then, not every bargirl is pathetic by definition.
Do you have a different opinion or this statement? Come up with arguments. I would like to be convinced otherwise.
Know many bargirls who easily earn 30.000 baht a month. Received for 1 night
them 1000 bath. Furthermore, many farangs fall in love with the same girl as a result
has that many of those girls receive money from different men each month
My answer to the statement…..are bargirls pathetic is….most of them are not pathetic.
“They are not pathetic because they earn well”. That's what you say. In your view, that would mean that all the rich are happy and all the poor wretches are down in the dumps. Sorry, Jogchum, that's a delusion.
Tino,
Money does not make you happy. Who usually says this? I think by people themselves
already have a lot of money.
Dear Jogchum. Let's not chat about this anymore. Money does not buy happiness, I have also heard poor people say. And I have plenty of money and am often quite unhappy.
No money certainly does not bring happiness. And it is more comfortable to be unhappy with money than without it. I know quite a few girls/ladies who work in a bar. You have lucky ones (they also earn more) and unhappy ones. I would almost say: they are just people. Some are not prepared to give up a life of drugs, booze and (paid) sex, even for a guaranteed 30.000 baht a month.
Don't forget the family, who also benefits from the proceeds of prostitution. It is often the only way to keep these 'caterpillars never enough' happy. Oh well, I could write a book about it….
It's not just a matter of being pathetic. It's a reality here and every bargirl has her own story. Everything has to be seen in the right perspective. You can go to a good university here, but then you can pinch yourself if you get a job in senior management for 30,000 baht a year. It's easy for us to say.. well go and brush in Bangkok for 8000 Baht a month. Life in Bangkok is also not cheap and if you also have to support your family for that, it will be hard work. We can easily say… well, they are used to living in a small room with 4 of them. How much do you spend here per month? Just do the math how much it costs to fulfill your basic needs.
Oh and by the way don't forget to include your health insurance in this story or do the Thais never get sick?
Another statement is more appropriate: “Do you think most bargirls are happy? “. Let 's put the bargirl in the center of the question and not whether we think they are pathetic . Many comments here have to do with expats who have lost money to bargirls and therefore think they must be very lucky.
The bars that expats know can only exist because of those same expats... and now we wonder if they are pathetic? Who's pathetic?
…Let those bargirls wring out the expats down to the last penny.
But let's be honest... a girl of 18 or even 17, with no education, who grows up in a bar and learns to make money on her back... that's sad isn't it? and pathetic? .. Yes, that too. Whether she earns 30.000 baht or 10.000 baht... IS THAT REALLY RELEVANT?
Dear John
a good response man I totally agree with you and think you give the right answer to the question. I have been thinking for a long time how I would respond.
But that is no longer necessary.
You say what I think
Sincerely, Keith
The core of your argument is this: bargirls are not pathetic because their choice for that job was deliberate and rational. I'm trying to convince you that what you write about that choice is almost never true. Whether that immediately means that bargirls are pathetic is another story.
Every child has a dream. That dream never includes a career as a bargirl. That will only happen under extreme moral and financial pressure. Noi comes home with Songkraan. “Mom, I'm not going back to Pattaya anymore. It's horrible there!” “I understand that, Noi. But you promised to work there for another two years. Now be a good and sweet daughter. How else can we pay for college for your sister Lek?” Many bargirls have debts to the bar owner or elsewhere.
I'll work on your mind for a while. If you think that choice is so rational and well-considered, then it shouldn't be a problem for you if you point out to your daughter, who complains about her low earnings as a cashier at AH, that she can always choose to be a whore. to go to work. And if she brings it up herself, what do you say?
These women are merchandise. Quality: young and beautiful = high price. They have lost their freedom of choice. Imagine, Peter, having to deal with people you dislike and despise on a daily basis? (Before I get into the whole blog: I'm convinced that most men are very nice to the bargirls. It's the exceptions that ruin a bargirl's life). Do you think anyone ever says to a man: then you're going to sell your body in Bangkok?
These women not only sell their bodies but also their souls and happiness. That cheerful smile is an illusion. They are all damaged in some way by their work. People who work professionally with bargirls (psychologists, psychiatrists, volunteers) all tell a story of sadness, insecurity, fear and extreme feelings of inferiority. They want a (preferably rich) farang because they can no longer find a good Thai man. They have lost their freedom of choice.
Their choice to work as a bargirl is almost always forced, born out of dire need. Are they pathetic? That's a question that doesn't matter.
Are you convinced?
Dear Tina,
I appreciate your good answer, because I don't think I can get a pin in between. I hope it convinces peter and the many others with the same mindset. I know it's really not a girl's dream in Thailand to become a prostitute, many think so I often think.
That is kicking in an 'open door'. You don't need to have studied to understand that no girl will answer the teacher's question about what she wants to be when she grows up: "Whore, master".
Knocks from that open door. However, that does not make it any less strong argument that it is not really a choice.
Tino,
You bring in too many learned gentlemen, such as psychologists, psychiatrists. I'm not ashamed
for saying openly on this blog that I am married to an ex-bargirl.
She had the choice between working in Pattaya or going to work for 80 baht a day in the hot
sun on the rice fields, where you don't even have work all year round.
The song you often listen to on Youtube is not making money to sing,
what you call…..girls who have no soul anymore?
Just come to us, and then you will notice that after 5 years of working in Pattaya my wife really is not mentally damaged.
@ Tino, no I'm not convinced.
It seems clear to me that it is never the ambition of a Thai woman to become a whore. In a shame culture where only status counts, a bargirl is at the very bottom of the social ladder. I know that too.
However, what you are not addressing is that there is indeed a choice. The beautiful young Thai ladies earn a lot in the bargirl circuit, but the average (most) are already happy with 10.000 baht per month. An amount that they can also earn if they go cleaning somewhere or work in a factory. It is true that the working conditions are much less, but well, that possibility is there.
The story of sacrifice for the family is also not always true. The amounts that are transferred to Mom and Dad are not too bad. Usually two to three thousand baht per month. The rest of a bargirl's earnings go to a hairdresser, clothing, make-up, motorbike, jewelry and telephone. (Source: Schwietert, Thai Sweeties).
You call dealing with men you despise as an argument? Well, the ladies in a bar are quite picky themselves and don't just go along with everyone. There are also attractive young guys in a bar and not just old fat men. There are plenty of bargirls who say I like sex and if I get money for it it's twice as much fun.
Of course it is never black or white, but mostly gray. Of course there are shining cases that I will never deny.
As said, there are two camps, just read the reactions. I used to always be in the first camp (pathetic, sacrifice, poverty, coercion). Now, I look at it a bit more nuanced. There is indeed a choice. Just try to find a cleaning lady for a salary of 10.000 baht per month. Many young Thai ladies turn their noses up at it.
What also plays a role in this discussion (I think) is that many farang have a relationship with an ex-bargirl. It is then more pleasant for her own peace of mind to insist that she did it out of sacrifice and for the family, than to say: 'Oh, I thought it was a relaxed job'.
The farang husband would rather not hear that, of course 😉
I'm not denying at all that they have a choice. If your children are starving and you have the opportunity to grab a loaf of bread, you are faced with a choice, but those kinds of choices are not rational or well-considered and that was my concern and that does not answer you. For the rest, I can go with you. The story is always more nuanced. It's gray and not black and white. I totally agree.
@ Fine, yum. I don't know what you base your information on. But the average bargirl who also looks average is happy with 10.000 baht a month. Only the most attractive ladies go home with 30.000 baht, but there are not that many.
I can't help but respond to you. Such a blog is addictive sometimes. If bargirls often choose young attractive guys, like you and me, now I understand why they only take home 10.000 baht….
I have a maid once a week, a 25 year old girl, and she gets 300 baht. Pretty handsome. Maybe I can give her some advice.....
I could say that when I walk into a bar I'm offered money if the girls can come with me. In fact, they fight over it.
But, a number of bloggers have already seen me in person a few times and they will then shout: 'you are lying that you are bursting!'. I'm afraid they're right... 😉
I would like to know where is that offer of 10,000 baht per month for housekeeper and/or cleaners.
My wife and I have hordes of ladies who would like to earn that amount per month with the above activities.
Alas, alas, the salary most often offered is 4000-5000 baht per month
Even offering "personal service" as an extra often does not bring the monthly amount to the mentioned 10,000 baht.
The statement that there is plenty of work and that no one in the bar scene has to work is a little "optimistic", I think.
Would say, come to Khon Kaen, spend a few days in the local "barcene/karaoke circuit" and then see the over-feminization.
And mind you, most of the ladies have previously worked in Pattaya, but there too the draft is good, I hear from these ladies, which is why the ladies have returned to the Isan.
But different work
there isn't.
And not in Bangkok either, otherwise many of these ladies would have stayed there on their way back.
Most barmaids, but not all, entered this business out of necessity.
Spurred on by stories about big money.
The return if it all doesn't really work out, is a huge loss of face.
So most of the ladies in this scene continue to work.
Because a chance for another job?
And the idea that prostitution, or whatever you may call it, often has no real influence on the rest of life is very short-sighted.
There is always some wringing.
Constantly or occasionally, but the bad feelings come back.
Also with the tough ladies, they are only much better in that part of their memories to close.
And for those who are not ashamed to admit that their wife, girlfriend or otherwise has worked in the bar scene: congratulations.
I join your side………………
And I have never regretted it in all these years.
@Tino - totally agree! There is no such thing as 'the bar girl' of course, everyone has different motives and motivations to work in prostitution. But it is indeed never a dream for those girls.
And while we're on the subject of psychology, I regularly notice how men can fool themselves. They like to think of themselves as philanthropists. 'but I treat her with respect', 'I took her out of life', 'I make sure she has a better life', etc. etc. But there is always something in return, it is always a transaction. I only know a handful of people who actually help bargirls without expecting anything in return.
You can already feel it coming, I often find the regular clientele of the ladies very pathetic.
tino, you put it very well. Contrary to what most people think, there is often no question of a rational and well-considered choice. By the way, what do you mean rational if you know. that you can contract AIDS. It is the circumstances and the pressure from the social environment (family) that make them end up in prostitution. Of course there are exceptions.
Then a salary of 9.000 Bath may be sufficient for someone alone, but not if you spend more than half of that on board and lodging. You for that 5 to 600 km. away from home and can go home maybe once every six months. What is left of that to support your family, because that's often what it's about.
Fred: totally agree. The choice is often made by a friend or family member who already works in a bar. And brags about the easy way to make a lot of money. That this is often disappointing in practice is another matter, but returning empty-handed means loss of face. The man has often left with the northern sun before the birth of a child, the child is hungry and the mother also needs to be taken care of. As a bargirl once said to me, "I'd rather go to bed with a nice guy than on an empty stomach."
Tino,
One more comment from me. You can articulate it well. However, you bring it from a ””'university education without experience yourself. Jogchum is a boy
who also gives his vision from a low education, but with his own experience.
Dear moderator, that depends on the design of the website. To respond to the original article you have to scroll all the way to the end of the page and therefore first go through all the responses. While scrolling you will see the “reply” button everywhere. It then seems as if you can only respond to other reactions. If you want to solve this problem you should put a “reply” button directly below the original article.
Moderator: A good and useful tip. We will discuss this shortly, thank you.
Watch and listen to one of the most beautiful songs by Carabou (“that old hippie”, Dick) entitled Mae Sai. A girl leaves for Pattaya, waved off by mom and dad, becomes addicted to drugs there, receives a letter that her mother is very ill and when she arrives in her village, her mother is already dead. The images speak for themselves. Can be admired on Youtube. I have often listened to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC_KxGDprbE
Tino,
Just saw and heard the song by singer Carabou and the video on you-tube.
Came across as very commercial to me. After all, if there were no bargirls, she could
not sing her songs. In other words, she also earns her money over the backs
of the girls.
Carabou is a singer and not a singer. And the song is the opposite of commercial,
it is touching and straight from the heart. Most Thais know it, I sang it last night with a Thai young man. And it reflects reality in my opinion, all Thais I spoke to agree with me about it.
@Khun Peter May I remind you of your own book review of Miss Bangkok, memoirs of a Thai prostitute? It told a different story.
My book review on my website begins as follows:
Is a job in the infamous red-light district of Patpong a voluntary choice or is it taken under the pressure of circumstances? In Miss Bangkok, memoirs of a Thai prostitute, Bua Boonmee (pseudonym) writes that she had no other choice with an unemployed friend who drinks and three children's mouths that need to be fed, because other work does not pay enough. That choice, she explains, was made out of 'desperation': 'We sell our bodies purely as a means of survival.'
For those who like: http://www.dickvanderlugt.nl/buitenland/thailand-2010/boekbesprekingen/
Her pseudonym Bua Boonmee, บัวบุณมี, means “A lotus of great merit and value”. Why would she have chosen that pseudonym? Correct.
@ I know Dick's book and have read it in 1 breath. A distressing case indeed. But be honest now if she wrote in the book that she liked it all, that wouldn't sell, would it? People like to read misery.
I wouldn't trade places with her, but she too made the choice to stay with a man who was an alcoholic and abused her. She can also choose to end that relationship.
There are many people who stay with their partner even though they are constantly abused. I won't go into too much detail here, but staying in such a dysfunctional relationship, like becoming a prostitute, is never a simple black and white choice for the victim.
@ I'm not saying anywhere that it's a simple black and white choice...
No, but you say that the girl can choose to end the relationship and it is not that simple, that's what I wanted to say.
Why do some women stay with a guy who abuses them? Why does Bua Boonmee continue to work in prostitution? If you know, you can say it. She would have a free choice? In theory maybe, but in practice it is a bit more complicated.
Moderator: Response does not address the statement.
Editorial staff, my unposted response does indeed relate to the statement or I cannot read it. You claim that you always have choices and I see that in a slightly more nuanced way.
Moderator: You made allusions to the author in your response that should not be included in the discussion. That is not allowed according to our house rules.
@Dick – 12 in a dozen of these types of books. Have read a few, all the same story. I cannot always escape the impression that it is often written with the input of an idealistic Western writer. I came across some things that a Thai just would never say like that. Doesn't make the story any less sad or relevant though.
The books about bargirls I've seen at Asia Books are all written by Westerners who have fallen in love with a bargirl. The book I reviewed was written by a Thai. I am curious on what basis you have the impression that a Western pen has been used. At least I didn't get that impression. The book made an authentic impression on me. It is, of course, the story of one prostitute, as she calls herself.
@Dick – Well then she writes damn good English! 😉 you ask what gives me the impression of a Western pen, it's been a while since I read it, but I can still remember this: for example, she writes that she does everything except kissing. Seems more like a point of view for a Western prostitute. For example, she writes 'I'm a prostitute, but farangs call me bargirl because that sounds more acceptable. It's all the same to me' That seems strong to me. There is a clear hierarchy in Thai prostitution, and a bargirl, for example, would look down on a girl in a soapie or Thai brothel. For a Thai it is certainly not all the same, seems to me more of a Western view. The book is full of things like this I seem to remember, and seemed to me to be written by an American feminist rather than a Thai bargirl under the motto 'we need to tell your story to the world'!
Again - doesn't diminish the sadness.
Dear Dick, that is her memoir. Is that why? In her experience it is. Why am I saying that? Just read Xaviera Hollander's Happy Hooker, which says the exact opposite! You couldn't have a bigger top whore in those days. Very nice book to read as well. She just liked sex, when she also found out that the gentlemen wanted to pay roughly, the bear went wild. Every whore is different and thinks differently. We know all the examples enough, that is kicking in open doors and repeating them. I do respect those here on the blog who say their wife is an exbargirl, because 99% of the time it is. I also thought after hanging around in the bar scene in Thailand for 20 years that I would also get an ex-bargirl as a wife. Once had to go to the Philippines for a visa, met a beautiful girl, sold beauty products and am now happily married and have a 1 year old daughter. Moral: Now don't have a Thai wife and an ex bargirl.
There are no pathetic bar girls, but a lot of pathetic Falangs, who fall for such a girl, and who, on reflection, receives money from various men and goes to bed with them!
Example, my Thai wife and I have a bar / restaurant without girls of fun, and we regularly get ladies at the door, asking if they can come and play the whore here.
Answer is no, but we could possibly use a cashier.
And they are gone, because you will have to work for your money!
Another example, A friend of mine is looking for a babysitter/nanny for his 9 year old son, and he has been advertising for months, calling facebook, etc, still no nanny until today! Because you will have to move yourself!
In short, they are not pathetic, because there are plenty of opportunities to earn money. Thailand is certainly not a poor country, but many people are very lazy, and that is not only about the ladies of pleasure.
Construction work is also often done by Cambodians and Burmese. Why?
Simple, they can't get workers in Thailand, so they get them elsewhere.
Day in and day out, I see hordes of Thais drinking whiskey on a table or bench, who let their daughter work in pattaya in the bar.
Why? Maybe to compensate for the alcohol addiction and the laziness of brother, dad, brother-in-law and sister?
Who knows, it may not say, but I think that if the whole family gets going and starts working, everything will be fine.
In your last few sentences you state why the girls are going to work in a bar, to support the family and the pressure from family to send money is high very high and with a job at the 7-11 they don't make enough to to support a family.
As if the easiest way to drink your courage or do drugs every night is to go with a farang, of which you don't know if he is still so friendly in the room. Often having to listen to nonsensical stories from the customer that you often do not fully understand due to a language barrier.
Bar life is also hard work, very hard work and an assault on the ladies' bodies.
Actually, the bar girls / ladies are abused from 2 sides, family and customers, yes really an easy existence.
Precisely phangan, so the family are the laziers and the pimps in many cases, and those girls who fall for the fact that a whole family is lounging around, to finance, fall for it themselves.
PS it used to be true that large amounts were sent home / family, but today there is a big change in that, and they do it for themselves, to be able to spend big money, and to go out to discos etc.
In short, to live a luxurious life, and the amounts, and the amount of ladies who send home are getting smaller and smaller.
Maybe they are slowly getting wiser.
Your comment that more and more “foreigners” are being employed in the construction industry is correct.
Your continued comment that the employers are doing this because the Thai don't want to work is, how shall I put it, somewhat off the mark.
The employers exchange their Thai personnel for personnel from other countries because they are CHEAPER, easy to govern because of illegal or illegal residence and therefore work harder and longer.
What about a construction company in Khon Kaen, which kicked out almost the entire Thai workforce and hired Vietnamese for half!
What about restaurants in Khon Kaen where the same thing happens.
Or bakeries?
You put forward the same thing that the employers in the Netherlands suggested to bring in the first wave of “guest workers”, namely: “the Dutch do not want to do this work (anymore)”, forgetting to finish the sentence with: “for those low reward”!
In Thailand they make it the Thai don't want to do it anymore, and forget the rest of the sentence.
But it is very cheap!
Together with the wife + girlfriend, to persuade a few Vietnamese workers to tell them what they earn.
Most are too scared to even look at you.
That despite girlfriend speaks Vietnamese.
After working hours, one of the ladies let slip: 100 baht a day, from 8 a.m. to 18 p.m., 2 half-hour breaks, 7 days a week……………………
There are those who are naturally born that way.
There are those who take up the profession out of poverty .
There are those who depend on the drinks because of their appearance,
There are those who have a lot of bad luck in their lives and are looking for happiness.
There are many who take advantage of stupid men.
So they all have their reasons.
Go with them to the place where they have to spend the night and then come to a thought .
Every person is different , tries to find happiness just like the many farangs who have turned their back on their homeland have their own reason .
Whether those girls are pathetic no, but the men who fall in love with them.
As for career choices, I believe that almost all major car manufacturers are present in Thailand and they are behind staff so car assembly is not rocket science and those companies pay very well by Thai standards.
So there are choices for those women but mostly I think this is about laziness.
I really don't think it's black or white. The question is not whether every barmaid is a distressing case, the question is rather whether that is true for the majority of those girls. And I don't think there's an unequivocal answer to that. I do think that a distinction should be made between the young girls (early twenties) who attract a lot of clientele and see it much more often as an adventure, and between somewhat older women (old for this profession, at least) who express it much more often. economic considerations. You can find a normal job for 10 thousand baht, but first of all it's really not easy to make ends meet as a single mother, and second, where the hell do you keep those kids; if you work in the nightlife you let them sleep at home. It is true that many bar girls have been emotionally damaged, often during their childhood, long before they came to Bangkok. On the other hand, it's the same "damaged" girls who scam farangs in the most vile ways (numbness allows you to do the worst things, while if someone has been good to you then you also pass it on in some way to others). And speaking of the male clientele, yes, they are often not without mental damage, there are also some harrowing cases in between.
@ Tjamuk, what you describe is trafficking in women and deception. That's something completely different. And certainly very serious and objectionable.
What I am talking about is a lady's voluntary choice to work in a bar, while she can also work in a factory.
@ You can have your opinion, but I strongly disagree. There are plenty of girls who 'try it for a week' in a bar. Still realize that it is not for them and decide to leave again or to work in a factory.
'Being emotionally damaged' is especially true for women who are forced into prostitution. That relates to trafficking in women and obscure brothels.
I'm talking about bars in the tourist cities in my story. There it is freedom joy. The ladies can get out every day if they don't want to anymore.
Actually agree with you on everything Khun Peter. Most respectfully older people who have also been married for a long time and live in the Isan have absolutely no idea of what is going on in the bars NOW. Usually they have heard it said… Here too everything moves with the times. People are getting smarter, they learn faster, different laws now apply than, say, 10, 20, 30 years ago. But that is the case in all aspects of life. Are they pathetic? I think some do and most don't.
what kind of freedom do the ladies have in the tourist bar scene, freedom well after about a month the phone really rings with the question where is the money.
Happiness yes, a customer likes a girl who is cheerful more than a chagarine, so that is not real happiness and it is not always pleasant among themselves
Moderator: You just reply to each other. That's not allowed.
Tjamuk,
You say, a bargirl has already had a whole life that has left her emotionally damaged
and because of that she can no longer work in a factory. Do you know lord tjamuk my wife
worked as a bargirl for 5 years. Just say it calmly whore. My ex-whore wife was in the Netherlands for 1 year and worked very hard at the Stuiver egg trader in Bakkeveen (FR).
I wonder, do you have experience with this yourself, or do you just think this?
I agree with Khun Peter, it is a choice and a family duty to maintain, don't forget that most ladies already have children who are often raised by the parents. I do have doubts about the amounts for cleaning, I know 1 lady a bit older but always worked in a hotel, in Pattaya 8 hours p/d 6 days p/w, earnings less than 4000 bath p/m. She now has her own cleaning team on my advice and accompanies ladies to do housework at foreigners' homes.
I have been with my girlfriend for over 6 years, not a bargirl, she says that every barmaid can work normally and earn money, there is enough work. Okay, the low-skilled earn less and less work, but there is work. A cousin of my girlfriend, just graduated, could work as a teacher, but could also get a job at a large multinational, starting salary 30.000 bath p/m, nice money for a 23-year-old woman. Don't forget that the economy in Thailand largely runs on women, women are more enterprising than men. From that entrepreneurial spirit, a woman often knows very well what she wants and what she does not want for work, it is not always a must. Of course women chat a lot among themselves and one earns even more in the bar than the other, they drive each other crazy and that's why crazy things often happen, being jealous is very big among women in Thailand, everyone knows that.
In any case, it is good that we as foreigners and as guests in that beautiful country respect each other, but certainly also the Thai and just don't look at what they do.
Thai women in general are very cunning and unpredictable, that's what you should always remember.
@ Roel, cleaning hotels pays poorly and is hard work. They then have to rely on guests' tips. Cleaning offices and condos is more Sabaai and pays better. As mentioned, they earn some money by selling waste. The ladies are inventive and professional. I would also like to note that I have more respect for Thai women than for Thai men.
Agree with you again, but not everyone has the opportunity to get some extras.
Of course more respect for the women, they also work harder, inventive, more professional, more dangerous, but there are also a lot of good Thai men, you don't pick out the bad in advance because of the smile. Don't we have the same with the foreigners?, I think so, who also cannot earn my respect.
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It's a choice and a family duty, you say. If it is a choice, it is not a duty and if it is a duty, it is not a choice. It can't be both. Make your own choice whether it is a “choice” or a “duty”. You do make an important point. Here, and in the past in the Netherlands, girls are beaten around the ears with “duty” until they go to the knees.
I have been visiting Thailand regularly for 20 years and have been living in Phuket for three years.
I've talked to a few thousand bar girls and sometimes more than that.
Some have been close acquaintances of mine for twenty years. There are young girls of 18 years old and there are also those who are still in the bar at 40 years old. Girls used to work in a bar in Phuket because they wanted to marry a foreign man to have a better life. Today, many come to work for a few months and then go home. They sometimes have several foreign boyfriends, regular customers and tourists. Many girls who marry a ferang can be found in a bar or disco after a failed marriage a few years later. There are girls who have interrupted their studies due to lack of money. There are also those who work in an office or hotel but don't feel like it anymore and think that so-called freelance work is better. Beautiful girls often do not want to work in a bar at all and find their clients on the street or in the disco. Working in a bar means you have working hours and obligations. Many girls find this difficult. I know girls who get 100.000 baht a month as a friend of a ferang, but they complain that they have lost their freedom and prefer to be single. After a month or two they just go along again for 1000-1500 per night. There are terribly dangerous ones that destroy many men both financially and mentally.
Girls call me in the low season because they don't have customers or I don't have something to do for them. I then let them iron for a few hours or clean my house for 300-400 bath. When I ask if they are happy with the payment, they always say that they would rather come and stay with me for 1000 baht. Some girls return to normal life after their bar time. When I call them they work in a restaurant or sell flowers at a market somewhere. There are also girls who have a good job in a restaurant or bank and also like to spend a night out for sex or money, perhaps the combination. It is always better to work in a bar with ferang customers than in a thai brothel where you often get 10-20 customers a day without a condom for 300 bath the man and maybe keep half the money There are pathetic bar girls and pathetic ferang customers . I think that most bargirls make a conscious choice whether it is also a right choice can be discussed, but in their eyes it is at that moment.
You hit the nail right on the head. It is the hard truth of the enterprising, shrewd Thai woman.
They all have one thing in common with each other, they are always fun.
I always told myself I DON'T BUY A WOMAN, if they come to me with their heart it's good. That worked out wonderfully over 6 years ago and we have a very good relationship, where I wanted to keep my freedom in advance, before I started anything and certainly wanted to go out alone 2x p / w. We never have a problem about that again, in the beginning we did, but I solved that. Bought 2 wooden ladies with hands together to welcome, told my girlfriend, that's an example for you if I'm home late again, sometimes don't come home at all for a night. She also knows that I'm not doing anything wrong and she sometimes goes to the same bar, where we play music until the early hours of the morning, together with Jan, a Dutchman. Always very nice, even had a shirt from the bar owner.
My girlfriend is still very happy with me and her daughter is also crazy about me, they have a good life, so do I and a future is assured for them if I was no longer allowed to be there.
I hope that every Dutchman has or will have the same luck and love life as I have, then we will be very well off in Thailand
I agree with much of what you say, Tak, but I would like to note the following. You close with the sentence: "I think that most bargirls make a conscious choice whether it is also a right choice can be discussed, but in their eyes at that moment it is."
In fact you're saying that those bar girls, from their perspective, are making a conscious choice. But at the same time you say that you can discuss whether it is the right choice, indicating to yourself that more than once (often in retrospect) it turns out not to be the right choice. If something seems to be the right choice for someone at a given moment, but it turns out not to be the right choice afterwards, then you can of course argue about how consciously that person could have made that choice in the first place. In other words, making a conscious choice does not mean that you can foresee the consequences.
I think every bargirl has her own motivation for working there. However, I myself would rather work in a bar than in a factory…
Well, I was a steward for 30 years… I often used my smile because I was paid for it… OK, no sex, but it is not that much different in the service industry. You often have to sell yourself… Am I also pathetic?
I know a barmaid who neatly sent a large portion of her earned money to her family in Isaan every month. But she wasn't happy about working as a bargirl. At one point she was offered work as a chambermaid in a hotel. She enjoyed it very much, but she earned a lot less and therefore sent less money to her family. Her brother then came to see her, saying that she had to send more money. She had to give up her job at the hotel and go back to work in a bar. She refused at first, but after a few blows from her brother, she still tacked. Very sad but she has accepted it and now works as a barmaid in Pattaya again. When she told me this story she had tears in her eyes. (me too by the way)
A former neighbor, married with one child, was forced by her mother to work in Pattaya for a few weeks every year. And a good Thai daughter does what her parents demand. When she returned home after her weeks in Pattaya, her husband first made her live with her mother for 1 week. Her husband thought she smelled and needed to 'air it out' first. However, they are now separated and the man takes care of his son, now 1 years old. Unlike most Thais, he has always been and still is a hard worker. But the income was too little to follow ex. stepmother.
The man now has another wife and his ex works full time in Pattaya. He is rather loved, does not drink, does not smoke and always works. And takes good care of his son. I haven't seen his ex in 3 years.
She had the choice of being a good daughter and going to a bar to work, or being a bad daughter to her mother.
I actually read in all the comments that the ladies are dealing with farang.
Mind you, dear people, only 5-6% of the ladies working in this sector have to deal with farang.
So not the rest.
And I cannot escape the impression that things are, or could be, a tiny bit different in that side of the sector.
That “freedom-happiness” really doesn't apply there.
A whole discussion about the ups and downs of the bargirl. Some write whore, others prostitutes. Let's keep it neat, they are just animate girls whether or not consciously chosen does not matter what they do. They entertain you and if you want more you just have to pay, nothing is obligatory.
Oh well, and a drink for a nice conversation can't hurt.
Culture is culture and difficult to change, their culture is worth it in many facets. As is the case in every country, culture, norms and values fade and take on different positions, sometimes very far away from reality.
I hope the monarchy in Thailand remains instant.
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Dear Kees and Math
I also write books myself. At the publisher, the text is checked by a proofreader and an editor. That damned good English, as you call it, is therefore no surprise. Many books are also written by ghost writers.
This applies, for example, to Bangkok boy. I met the Bangkok boy and know that the story was ghost-written based on what he told. That book is also written in damn good English.
I found Memoirs to be a convincing book that makes Bua's motives for working in Patpong palpable and paints a disconcerting picture of the little world.
Math: What Xaviera Hollander writes is her story. There are numerous stories. Metje Blaak, who worked as a whore for 25 years, says in an interview: 'I have always done dirty work. You can say that it's not that bad to be a whore, but in general it's not exactly pleasant. You have to be honest about that.' She says about her clients: 'Some of them sat on my bed and left a brown stripe on my sheet.'
@Dick – that English is of course a joke! No, I just saw too many things in that book (and most other books on the subject) that were un-Thai. That must almost be the hand of a non-Thai editor. Whether it was done to convey an idealistic agenda point (thou shalt not associate with pathetic prostitutes) or whether it was done merely to make it more understandable to the Western reader, I can only guess. The core of the story will undoubtedly be true.
Dear position taker,
It's just PITTY that in Thailand for most young Thai ladies and gentlemen, the expectation of a more or less good future has to run through the 'bar'.
That 'bar', in whatever variety (massage parlour-restaurant-shows-agencies), especially the institution that focuses on foreigners, is only a 'shop window' for those who make themselves available for “an easy life and the only way to find a reliable future”, as heavily bawdy and really absurdly shockingly worded and widely published by an MP (member of Paliament). And recently it was widely reported through films and in the Thai media.
This MP, therefore one of Thailand's lawmakers, and in his position also represents the Thai government, thinks it is completely normal that this road to the future is there and should also be followed, instead of making laws that ensure proper education of relevant young people and young adults. Laws that not only increase the current and future level of care, prosperity and welfare, but in the long run can also lift Thailand out of its severe isolation and poverty and the population, even before they will soon realize (through Asean) that it country is really not the center of the world. In fact... Every month people are rapidly increasing the distance between neighboring countries in a negative sense and are completely alienating themselves from the rest of the world.
After the country was removed from the list of 18rd world countries 3 years ago, this not-so-desirable title could be pasted over the map again about 8 years ago.
Apart from the fun that some see in the other aspects of prostitution, other than money alone. And for a very small part of the ladies and gentlemen who indeed generate an income for the family through prostitution, this is the only reason that Thailand is overfilled with "Bars" and that the boys and girls and whatnot are provided with necessary matching furniture. among them, have found a place. Where they sharply select the clientele with only one thought: “How do I hook the right foreigner or a Phu Yai”. Indeed and unfortunately: 'Just for an easy way of life'.
SO SO SO! Capitalized and exclamation mark. But don't feel sorry for the lady or gentleman who gratefully uses one of the "black or gray areas" that Thailand unfortunately needs to make the economy, finances, appearance and development appear white.
Have a nice day everyone from a sun-drenched “Pearl of Siam”,
Wim van der Vloet
If I understand most of the reactions correctly and as I stand in it, the girls should actually say to their family: I'm going my own way. Or do we get reactions like: Is part of the Thai culture….Is it also part of the Thai culture, surely Roswita's example, that you give your own sister a few spins? One thing is certainly true what I read earlier from Khun Peter, I also have no respect for those Thai men at all!
Still ff:
Peter deposits a statement where he more or less writes as the basis of his statement:
“However, I am convinced that the country offers enough opportunities to earn your living in a 'normal' way. In Bangkok you can do unskilled work, such as cleaning offices, and you will receive a reasonable salary by Thai standards: 9.000 Baht per month, which is certainly no exception.”
Having just given my first reaction to Peter's statement that “Barmaids are not pathetic, but they are a pathetic phenomenon”, this one sentence from Peter kept haunting my mind. Because this sentence actually describes “The Thai problem” exactly. Suppose therefore that the 'Thesis of Peter' should be: “A normal Thai income is not normal”. And then you automatically come to those Peters 'bar ladies'.
First of all, we must note that 20% of the total Thai population lives in Bangkok, the majority of which belong to the good middle class or elite. And about 'only' 5 million Thai are at the service of this middle class and the elite. And furthermore that Bangkok is a completely different living, living and working community than the rest of Thailand.
I would like to say something about the rest of Thailand. Thailand itself actually. So about the life and associated income and spending of more than 52 million Thai. In that group, of course, there are also major differences between the true rural and the city dweller.
In the rest of Thailand, the monthly wage for a 'normal' job is about 6,000 Baht per month. If you have some experience or if you have completed secondary education, you will receive about 9,000.- Baht. As strange as it may sound. With university education, one does not get much further than that amount, and if one can find a job that really requires that university education, then only a maximum of 12 to 15,000 Baht per month will roll out. High-level positions score only 30,000.- to 50,000.- Baht per month. And in addition to the above, one should not forget that almost 30% of the Thai population simply does not have a job and a steady income. You could say that you are your own boss as a farmer, fisherman or shrimp breeder or something like that. The income of this population group is very variable, but in all cases very low. In Isaan, people sometimes don't even get the 3,000.- Baht per month.
In Peter's statement it is about bar ladies (Isn't it about bar boys and the 3rd gender?). So the group of young people who are just before, or are already at the beginning of their 'normal' house-tree-animal future. Let alone the higher ideals.
My opinion is that every person, at least in the countries that already call themselves 'developed', should have the right to a dignified existence where in the current state of development, as Thailand likes to present itself, a normally furnished home , a normal means of transport and normal social security should be present, such as care, illness and old age. I think that a TV, a computer and a mobile phone are now also part of that.
Without going into details, the above will mean that one must have at least 50,000.- Baht per month just to allow 1 family with 2 children to lead a very normal life. If there are readers who doubt this amount, then, to avoid endless discussions about what is and what is not normal, you can email me and I can specify a breakdown of these perfectly normal monthly costs.
However, it is totally crazy that, let's take a police officer, from a salary of 10,000.- Baht and about 5,000.- Baht allowance, so only 15,000.- Baht a month, a middle management officer of that amount again must buy his own patrol motorcycle, his uniform and service weapon and must support his family from the rest and think about his social security. Fortunately, a civil servant is insured, has a pension and has more privileges, but the picture is clear and perhaps sheds a different light on the many 'fines' and 'compensations' for which the 'boys in brown' are so notorious.
It is the same in education. Less than 12,000.- Baht salary for a seasoned teacher who has to pay for uniform and further training. That for this reason people also generate extra income, but then in the form of 'homework lessons' or 'extra lessons' during the weekend. I will leave the complications, including the school itself, that these extra earnings entail for now. The picture is again clear.
Then the cashier (bachelor accountancy), or draftsman (bachelor engineering), or the clerk (bachelor law) or nurse (bachelor medicine). Good for only 6,000.- to 8,000.- Baht per month. Or the hordes of salesmen and saleswomen that crowd around you in every shop, competing only for a few Bahts commission in addition to the most minimal minimum income, who have all at least completed secondary education, where one has to see how to get to additional income comes to enable a normal lifestyle. It is striking that a great many 'part-timers' come from these reasonable professional groups. You can find them in the evenings while retaining their jobs in the local discotheques, shopping centers or other meeting places, in order to be able to obtain that much-needed additional income in a way that at least pays off. Or, after giving up the good job indeed as a “barmaid” in a place far away from family and village, where people live in 2 completely different worlds during the day and at night. Sometimes when one has broken up with family, or just to enjoy the many luxuries that Thailand now displays so enormously. But more often as the only way to escape from the rut of a permanently too low income and, from their illegal new activities, to have enough money in a much shorter time to be able to afford a normal home, car, TV, computer and mobile phone. to buy. After which people sometimes get the chance to lead a normal life, either at a later age.
In my previous post, the emphasis was on the Thai who would then focus on the 'rich' farang. But that's only partly true. Most of them find their additional and not inconsiderable income from the Thai circuit, where, if one is already looking for the sugar daddy or another social security, the Thai Phu Yai is the target even more than the foreigner.
Furthermore, this whole matter is much more complicated and many other typical Thai matters play a role, in which indeed the bad reputation of the Thai man, the heavy alcohol abuse, status, prestige and loss of face, but also Karma and social issues play a very important role. to play.
But still pathetic, really very pathetic and a direct result of a total failure of decent education, is the clinging to a totally outdated and deeply rotten education system. And as a result, a lousy situation at home, in offices, on the work floor and in the rice fields and a far too meager reward for all that normal work, so that normal life can only be done in an abnormal way.
Furthermore, with a normal income, normal taxes and normal social security contributions can also be paid and therefore these important things that belong to a normal country also make normal care and medical facilities and a social safety net possible.
But that could then be the basis of a new statement by Khun Peter.
Greetings from a still beautiful, but now a bit rainy ChiangRai,
Wim van der Vloet
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I think this is a great discussion, and from the answers you can largely tell who lives in Thailand, and experiences it all themselves, and who comes on vacation, and sees the whole spectacle through rose colored glasses, hahahaha
A small comment dear Tjamuk, otherwise we will have discussions about that again. It says THOSE Thai men and not Thai men. Exceptions always prove the rule. In my opinion, Peter said it differently than you see it, but he can explain that better himself if he needs it.
@ Oh Tjamuk, that's not too bad. I have spoken to expats or retirees who have lived in Thailand for years, but who knew even less about the country than the average tourist. And as a farang, even if you have lived there for 50 years, you will always remain an outsider. Thai are quite Nationalistic, a farang is and remains a farang even if you sing the Thai national anthem at the top of your lungs and get a temple tattooed on your back 😉
Since we are going in circles and no new points of view are emerging anymore, I will close the discussion. Thank you for your response and explanation.