Is there such a thing as a universal value that applies to every person on earth? According to the American clinical psychologist Abraham Maslow, yes.
I am therefore a supporter of his theory, which is visualized by the well-known 'Pyramid of Maslow'. In short, according to Maslow, there is a hierarchy when it comes to the universal needs of man.
Behavior explained
Maslow's pyramid is an excellent tool for me to explain certain behavior, also in relationships. Maslow argued that every living being pursues the same needs. When a need is met, the individual moves to the next level. But whether or not you agree with his theories, we can see that needs change as they are fulfilled.
In the conversations I have with friends and acquaintances about relationships with women (Thai and Western) you clearly recognize a common thread. I'll explain what I mean.
Thai women and mate choice
Many unskilled or low-skilled Thai women are looking for financial security and think they can achieve this by entering into a relationship with a Western (relatively wealthy) man. A choice that is less common in the Western world thanks to an extensive social security system. As a result, Thai women are also less picky when it comes to choosing a partner. Age and appearance are less important as long as he can meet the basic needs of safety, (financial) security and stability. However, when this desire is fulfilled (thanks to a Western partner), the Thai lady will take the next step in the pyramid of needs. This also changes her behavior more and more and eventually also the relationship.
When the pursuit of friendship, love and positive social relationships are fulfilled, she will look for the next value: the need for appreciation, recognition and self-respect. Things that increase competence and prestige in a group context (attach importance to status in a social context). Something you also see with Western women, who are somewhat higher in the pyramid due to education, employment and social security. This difference also translates into other requirements for a partner, for example. After all, if she has her own income and the lower values in the pyramid have been achieved, a partner will mainly have to meet her need for recognition, appreciation and self-respect (think of things such as intelligence, education, position, ambition and social status).
Maslow's universal needs and pursuit include a certain behavior. It explains to me the comment of an acquaintance who said: "My Thai wife is starting to behave more and more like a Western woman". After all, thanks to marriage with him and financial opportunities, she has risen several steps in the pyramid and is looking for the fulfillment of new values.
Same as western women
In the many conversations I have and have had with my Thai girlfriend, I could only conclude one thing. She thinks and acts exactly like the Western women I've shared my life with.
But what about the other facts that often pass in review when it comes to Thai women? Things like caring and passion, but also negative things like jealousy, extravagance and the role of the family. I think that most of the differences, if any, can be traced back to specific cultural characteristics. This certainly applies to the established gender roles that conservative Western men in particular appeal to in Thai women; she takes care of the household and the husband takes care of the finances.
Guilt culture versus shame culture
According to well-known anthropologists, such as Ruth Benedict, we have a culture of guilt in the modern West and a culture of shame in Asia. Taking good care of your husband and your family is an explicable part of this culture of shame. When a man leaves his Thai partner, the gossip machine kicks in. The woman will be blamed for not taking good care of the man, which means shame and loss of face. She will always try to prevent this by not letting her husband fall short. Complement this with the Buddhist values and you undeniably have one of the many qualities that we value so much in Thai women.
To return to my statement, I think that Thai women, apart from the cultural differences that explain certain behavior, do not differ substantially from Dutch women. Many western women are also caring, show passion, affection and want to take good care of their partner. They are not emancipated by definition and also do the housework. I therefore disagree with men who criticize Western women and then praise Thai women. A quote I read somewhere: “they (Thai ladies) accept your bad breath, your smelly feet and your snoring”, I therefore dismiss as utter nonsense. This is called love and has nothing to do with your country of birth or origin. Western women also accept all your quirks, your snoring and your smelly feet. In a relationship it is all about give and take, that is the case all over the world. Hence my statement: 'A Thai woman is not essentially different from a Western woman'.
What is your opinion on this subject?
Completely agree, people (m/f) just have certain needs. If this is met, then other needs will be added. Then a cultural sauce is added. But don't forget the individual character, in fact that will be the deciding factor between interactions (love relationships, business relationships, ...) with people.
That is why I would say: A Thai(se) is no different from a Westerner/se (I almost wrote Westerner/se, but that could be misread!!), everyone is unique. And fortunately, otherwise it would be a boring affair.
You should perhaps replace “culture sauce” with “education sauce” because there are also huge differences between them, not every couple raises their children the same…
Totally agree! wherever you come in the world, it all depends on the character and on the environment in which you move.
It's actually funny to see that it's the same everywhere, whether you're in Asia, Europe, South America or Africa. There seems to be a need everywhere to feel a little more than the other…
Regards,
Robert
I know Maslov's pyramid and recognize many things on this globe in comparison with this theory. And yes, there is no difference between Thai and European ladies. Fully support the statement.
A Thai woman is essentially no different from a Western woman. Totally agree.
But personally I think that most Thai women are more beautiful than
western women.
Totally agree.
Initially you let yourself be guided by the environment and culture of the country in which this woman lives. Everything is new around you, and you take it in as a total picture. (Mis) leading in this are language, clothing, food and living conditions. You determine that where you have ended up is completely different from what you are used to, including the woman.
This overall picture crumbles after a while, and you start looking at everything in more detail. You notice that this woman also takes care of a family, prepares food, washes and urinates, gets her period, has her whims, etc… just like any other woman. In the end you have to conclude that there are more similarities than contradictions.
That's how I feel too, RonnyLadPhrao, first strange and new and then familiar and familiar. I always distinguish two types of foreigners here. One group reacts like you and me, they see more and more similarities and fewer differences after a while, and there is a group that play down the similarities and emphasize the differences. Just look at all the comments.
Compare a church with a temple. Despite all these external differences, prayers and songs are sung, candles and incense are lit, sermons and kneeling, tears and laughter take place. It just depends on what look you look at.
Tino,
Indeed, the reactions will be along those lines.
Some are already talking about HiSo . Well, I am blown away by such comments.
It reminds me again of my statement about the Isan. Where are we going .
Peter wants to clarify. Why ?
What I mainly read here so far is a lack of knowledge about Thailand
and also a lack of knowledge about a woman
Well my opinion as a woman
they are most definitely not the same as western women
their way of thinking is much different from ours.
here it is written that they take care of their family
I do not agree that many have their children raised by grandparents
most of them dislike housework, including cleaning
they are very jealous of each other.
don't know true friendship like we do
are much more accommodating than we are not likely to reply
that is my experience with thai women
there are of course exceptions
Rick,
Completely true, is my experience as well. Jealousy among women is well known, but among Thai women it is absurdly bad. They don't trust their best friends yet. Also because of the general fact of Mia Noi, it doesn't matter to a Thai man whether a man is in a relationship or married. That's why there are so many Mia noi,s. Infidelity is commonplace. Western women are much more truthful and stay away from married men.
Dear Rikie:
This time I agree 100% with Peter's statement
I think you are talking about the Thai woman who develops in Thailand.
And since much is already limited in its possibilities.
My wife to whom I have been married for 37 years now
and has also been living in NL for 37 years.
She has developed herself here as a modern Dutch woman She has been working in nursing for 20 years has obtained many certificates has had her driving license for 25 years
Her diploma in social hygiene. In short, just a Dutch woman with a tan
Certainly in the early years there were issues that you describe.
But nothing can be found anymore
Sincerely, Kees
Kees1, you write that you agree 100% with the statement. In fact, you are saying that you think that a Thai woman is no different from a Dutch woman. You then substantiate this by writing that your wife has developed from a Thai woman to a Dutch woman. I do not get it…
A Thai woman is really very different from a Western woman. She thinks differently, feels things differently and behaves differently. A Thai is mainly determined by her family and gets meaning and meaning (and status) if she manages to maintain this family. She will do anything for this, including cheating or lying to her boyfriend or husband to please the family.
A Western woman is much more truthful, while lying is in Thai culture. A Thai wants to please much more and she cares about the effect of the words, whether they are true or not, she very easily lies for other motives as well. A Thai avoids the confrontation and if that confrontation does come, she flees.
Apart from thinking and feeling and consciousness, there are also physical differences, her skin feels softer and cleaner, her smell is so different and she wants to be seduced and seduced, but the latter is also the case for a Western woman.
Lying is more like denying certain things or situations to avoid disagreement. To deny means it didn't happen.
It is more a cultural pattern than something specific to a (Th.) woman.
I have also often encountered this phenomenon within Islam.
Sincerely,
Lodewijk
Peter, I completely agree with you about the statement: 'A Thai woman is not essentially different from a Western one'. But what about men? Is that different? Thai men are not essentially different from Western ones, are they? Can we just say Thai and leave the gender in the middle?
That 'eastern culture of shame' and 'western culture of guilt' is a worn-out idea. Further research has long shown that both cultures have both shame and guilt, in almost equal measure, that drive behavior. Here, too, there is much less difference than one might think. I will send you some recent literature.
I think it's really nice that you wrote this down like that.
Tino, why not share it with the rest by writing a piece about it? In my perception, Thais differ in their behavior and motivations from the Dutch. I'm curious about your substantiation of the contrary (absolutely not meant cynically!)
Totally disagree! This is a theory that has never been empirically tested and dates back to the sixties. There is also much to criticize about his methodology. See:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piramide_van_Maslow#Kritieken_op_de_behoeftepiramide_van_Maslow
http://mens-en-gezondheid.infoyo.nl/overige/12906-maslows-behoefte-pyramide.html
In short, for me, the Thai (Asian) woman is definitely different from the Western woman.
“A crucial difference between a good Asian woman and Western women is that in Asia this woman will admit to her need for a man. She likes sex, but also the emotional and financial security of a boyfriend or husband. Asian women work, but they never bought into the Superwoman myth, or the nonsense that a career can meet their emotional or personal-fulfillment needs. They know that a man and a proper family life are necessary”.
See:http://whatmenthinkofwomen.blogspot.com/2011/06/difference-between-asian-and-western.html
You indicate (or reject) a theory that is dated, but you yourself refer to a website that is peppered with feminist hatred and can therefore never be objective, and therefore not credible.
Regards,
Robert
Peter Tube,
You use a lot of links pointing to researchers. However, I wonder how they come
to the conclusion that a Thai (Asian) woman is different from a Western woman.
My opinion is that you can only determine that if you have actually been with, both a
Thai woman, if you have been with a Western woman, At least > 10 years
For example, the last link you use says…She like sex. Does that mean that Western
women like sex less? Was all of this actually worked out personally?
Be sure not!
@Jogchum
You should ask those researchers that, not me. It is my habit to substantiate my point of view (correct or not) with relevant sources.
Maslow's theory, let's say “theory”, is rattling on all sides and it is precisely that theory that is the basis of Kuhn Peter's argument.
Also take the time to read Jan Teesling's commentary plus the article in Forbes.
Furthermore, this is not about "trying out" women, so I will leave this comment for what it is.
Peter, Tube,
May I ask you how long you have had a relationship, with a Thai as well as with a Western (Dutch) woman?
You refer me to also read Jan Teeseling's commentary. Yes, he is also with the
Maslow's theory disagrees. But Khun Peter does. I myself have my own experience with
had a Dutch woman ( 9 years ) and have been with a Thai for 12 years now.
As a result, I do not need researchers to conclude that there is no difference whatsoever between a Thai and a Dutch woman. Both want beautiful things,
just like we as men want it to be.
@Peter Buis and Jogchum: An experience with 1 Thai and 1 Dutch woman seems to me rather little to draw valid generalizing conclusions about the difference between Thai and Dutch women. The length of the relationship doesn't matter.
@Jogchum: According to your own criterion of at least 10 years, you are still a year short with a Dutch woman to be able to draw a conclusion.
@Jogchum
No Jogchum, you can't. The house rules of this blog prohibit chatting and commenting on each other. Furthermore, we are talking about Maslow and the “Thesis of the Week” and not about my private life. The moderator should know that too...
I referred to Jan Teeseling because I completely agree with the content of the article in Forbes Magazine. Dr. Pamela Rutledge knows what she's talking about.
I suggest you google "Maslow obsolete" and then draw your own conclusions.
Over and out.
I disagree with the statement!
The only time a Thai woman is no different from a Western or African woman is at the time of birth. The only physical difference may then be the skin color.
After that, the lifeline of every woman proceeds in a completely different way due to culture, upbringing, education, family, work environment, living environment, etc.
I am quite willing to agree that a woman carries specific characteristics, but they are all interpreted and implemented in different ways by Thai and Western women.
A Thai woman is therefore different from a Western woman, but not necessarily better or worse!
Dear Gringo
In my opinion, the question is whether a Thai woman essentially differs from a Dutch woman
Then I say no. Get 10 children from any country and raise them in NL
Then you will soon have 10 adult people who do not differ in any way
of the children born in NL. So I think we are all basically the same.
Sincerely, Kees
I have been coming to Asia for 35 years now and flying to all parts of the world for 30 years. Because of my profession as a steward, I have always had a lot to do with Western women. Admittedly professional women who also like to be nice and see no problem in serving, but also different from my Asian colleagues.
I have Thai, Japanese, Chinese, Korean and Indian colleagues, female and male. The percentage of women is much higher. And every time I notice on my flights that I always interacted better with the Asian colleagues than with the Western ones.
The Western women are much stricter, have many prejudices and often have strong opinions about how something should be done or how something should be.
They show little understanding for other cultures (while they have to deal with them on a daily basis). Because they work, they cannot understand that a man like me has a Thai girlfriend, who does not have to work for him, but who does his housework and takes care of his house while he is away.
My girlfriend, on the other hand, finds it hard to understand that I don't have many girlfriends with all those nice women around me.
There are differences between my Asian colleagues. An Indian woman is much more direct, complains more about injustices and yet she likes to be a woman who also wants to be seen as such. The Japanese keep their opinions to themselves and are polite, give lots of compliments and like to have a relaxed atmosphere. There are also those who do as they please, but those are exceptions.
I have had less to do with my Chinese colleagues, but they are also easy to get along with.
But the best are my Thai colleagues. They love to flirt, to play on words, to joke, you hardly ever see them angry. You can build a friendship with them (you can also do that with the Indian, not so much with the Japanese)…
You can also have serious conversations with Thai colleagues, talk about feelings and also about practical things. They are open to the opinion of others and do not judge as sharply as the Western ladies.
I don't know what it's all about... upbringing genes, whatever, but for me there are definitely differences between Thai and Western women.
Nice to read that people both agree and disagree with the statement. I didn't expect otherwise either.
A few did not understand the message, but that may also be due to the fact that I was not clear.
Hence another explanation. Of course, Thai women are different from Dutch women. Every woman is different. Try to find two Thai or Dutch women who are 100% equal to each other. You won't succeed. Maybe in the future if we can clone humans. And I should know because I have been married to a woman who has a twin sister (fraternal). Together in the belly, same upbringing, same school, but two completely different women. Opposites rather than equals.
What I am trying to make clear with this statement is that certain qualities such as caring, love, respect, etc. are not unique to Thai women. These are qualities that you will also find in Dutch women. Thai women do not differ from Dutch women in this respect. Praising Thai women and dismissing Dutch women as over-emancipated kenaus is, in my opinion, incorrect.
Cultural aspects such as the culture of shame do play a role. Just like the role of the parents, education, intelligence, etc. However, when it comes to meeting basic needs, all people are equal. We all want food and drink, security, health, money, love, sex, etc. In this we do not differ from each other and Thai women do not differ from Western women. Not even in pursuit of these values. That a Thai may take a different path to fulfill these values than Western women, that will certainly be the case. But that's another discussion.
As an example, give Thai women the same financial security as in the Netherlands, then most Thai ladies will no longer see farang. Then the behavior of a Thai lady will correspond much more to the behavior of a Western woman. Go and have a look in Siam Paragon and try to make (eye) contact with a HiSo Thai lady. You won't succeed I'm afraid.
As Maslow also states, fulfill a need and other needs will immediately take its place. This is how we change and everyone around us. Amen.
Dear Khan Peter,
An ordinary Thai man also does not get eye contact with a Hiso lady. There really is a world of difference between the average Thai woman and the Hiso Thai. The difference between a lady from the banok and a Hiso lady is greater than the difference between a Thai woman and a Western woman.
That is correct and that has to do with which needs have been met.
Dear Peter,
Concerning your statement, and rebuttal (response) I almost agree.., but that is a general fact, agree with you.
But the statement of, I should know because I was married to a woman who has a twin sister, fraternal! etc.etc. yet very different,
for clarification .Having twins is determined in the mother's genetic line,
2 girls can be 1 or 2 fraternal, 2 boys can be 1 or 2 fraternal, a twin, a girl AND a boy are ALWAYS fraternal.
That means, completely different personalities with an advantage for both, together a very emotional connection. This was not explained to me by Abraham Maslow, but by a gynecologist from the UMC Nijmegen.
And as for the opposites…it is always the opposites that are attracted to each other in a relational relationship.
Now as a non chalat person the question, what is a HiSo Thai Lady?
if it is, which I suspect it is… there is always an exception to the rule.
PS hope from you in this very instructive discussion clarity in my ignorance
With regards
Moderator: Texts that are irrelevant have been removed.
Peter, I understand what you write here and I agree with it to a great extent. I think a lot of men who moan about western women should take a good look in the mirror, both literally and figuratively. However, the wording of your statement is at odds with your claim that cultural aspects play a role. That is why it may not be 100% clear what we are discussing now.
Personally, I see major limitations of Maslow's theory. It is true that needs change when the most basic needs are met, but I think that the higher needs are highly dependent on environmental factors. So much so that you cannot really speak of universally valid needs.
The highest level of the pyramid is 'Self-actualization', or 'morality, creativity, spontaneity, problem solving, lack of prejudice, acceptance of facts' [source Wikipedia]. I don't think the wealthy Thais excel at this. Very black and white and with a big wink I see the following pyramid for Thailand:
1. Physiology
2. Safety
3. Money
4.More Money
5. Even More Money
Some examples are given of how Thai women behave differently when they live in the Netherlands or another Western country. I see that as proof that Thai women are indeed different and that this is due to environmental factors (culture). Those factors seem to be stronger than universal, innate needs.
I would like to reformulate the statement to: 'Differences between Thai and Western women become a lot smaller when their financial situation is equal'. I can agree with that. I admit it readily, not really catchy 😉
@ Maarten, I see it this way (but of course I'm not a psychologist or anthropologist) the position in the pyramid partly determines the behavior of the individual (never 100%). I think that cultural differences mainly determine the way to the next step. A Western woman will make different choices to move up the pyramid than a Thai woman. This is mainly prompted by social aspects such as education and opportunities.
Dear Maarten, the highest level, namely self-actualization, is only reached by a few people, according to Marlow, even in the west. Reaching the last two levels is therefore mainly dependent on the level of development of the individual. It should be clear that in countries with an underdeveloped education system it is difficult for the individual to develop to these last levels. That does not mean that when that opportunity is offered, this need does not arise/exist.
You really don't have to go that far back in Dutch history to come to a comparable situation of the Dutch with the Thai woman. Until the 50s, Dutch women were confined to their homes and kitchen sinks. They had to hold up their hand at the end of the week and then wait and see what the master of the house had thrown out of his pay bag for her. What do you mean safe and financial security!?
The West developed rapidly after the Second World War, which also improved the situation for women. This created a social safety net. Due to the increasing economic and industrial development, women were also able to participate in the labor process, which made them even more independent. This also increased the urge to develop and there was a sharp increase in the number of female students at the universities. All Marlow principles.
Unfortunately, in Thailand and many other countries, women are not doing so well, which does not alter the fact that the needs do not exist. Unfortunately, that is now reserved for a few, the biter / fighter. Hopefully they serve as an example for others.
Also unfortunately, many Western men do not realize that Thai and Western women do not differ that much in needs. This is probably out of self-interest, because where should those gentlemen go if the Thai woman is given the opportunity to develop as the Western woman once got? Mars maybe?
Sorry:Khun Peter, but I don't completely agree with you. Apart from the obviously soft skin of the Thai (will it be the padan rice?), the monomancipation has not (yet) struck there, fortunately there are no women (yet) with a moustache! The respect, and certainly not humility as it is sometimes described here, makes the Thai loved by farangs. And the real one "of course you don't charge in Pattaya", but in isaan. I've had several relationships and you have to make it clear that in the Netherlands the coins don't hang in the trees / the well-known pyramid > first a moped - then a car, and then a plane! So I don't fall for that anymore. Despite the cultural difference, it is still for me: Thai85%-Dutch15%!
Moderator: You tar millions of Thai women with the same brush, that's hurtful. Please add more nuance.
Ronny LadPhrao; be yourselve and please don't try to know everything better and otherwise give a well-founded response to the writer in question. We are all none the wiser about this!
Dear Willem
I know that I often go too short, but most of the time I am "myself" or do I have to use a style when "they are going to charge in the Isaan." By the way, if you charge them as you describe as "beautiful" in Pattaya, there is a good chance that you have charged one of the Isaan or are they no longer "real" and do you have to go back to the source? That's what I mean by a lack of knowledge - only in (there it is again) the Isaan you apparently find "the real" (whatever that may be?) ... the rest of Thailand apparently has no "real" women or Does this fall under the category of wanting to know everything better? Hopefully this will help you and/or it will make you wiser..
Moderator: Your comment must be on topic or we won't post it.
For me the differences remain, even if the Thai grew up in the Netherlands or not. I see that again in the Hundreds of colleagues I had over the past thirty years. The Asian – Thai – were very often calmer and sweeter in nature than their western sisters.
Forbes: “What Maslow missed” and “Maslow rewired”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2012/03/29/what-maslow-missed/
Now the picture is complete!
Absolutely disagree.
I know many Thai women who get stuck in the first phase of Maslow's Pyramid and try to increase it. They are only concerned with money and then buy friendship, get recognition and appreciation by being cheap. No, it works a bit differently here. Self-development is then sought in a lot of shopping and knowing where to find the Gucci and Versace stores.
The most beautiful example of the Thai (both women and men) showed the Phuket Gazette 8 years ago in an extensive study. A “quality” person is someone with money, a lot of money (doesn't matter how he/she got it). all other values and norms did not matter at all. I read that article open-mouthed.
Appearance features natural color and yet on average somewhat smaller and narrower than Westerners.
Education is lower on average than Westerners. Strong cultural trait.
The duty of care of a Thai woman mainly because there is no social safety net.
Strong personal trait, very enterprising, much more like westerners.
Real drawbacks of a Thai, jealousy, and inscrutable. Although the first does not bother me, I reserve myself for the second. Stay in charge of your own stomach.
Just as I have already read, a Thai woman first wants financial protection, later more status, gradually building up, but Western women also ask how much you earn first, so also for security.
Furthermore, it makes a very big difference between low-skilled and educated Thai women, and is not nearly as big for Western women.
Often the problem starts with the duty of care, for parents, children, we Western men are not used to that (but times are turning) the biggest problem is caused by the men themselves, old man, very young woman, man wants that woman and paid coarse p/m. That goes around and see everyone wants at least 10 to 15.000 thb p / m, there are even 30 to 40 p / m.
So guys a question, are you also going to pay 500 to 900 euros p/m to a Western woman so that she comes to live with you and is fully cared for, people often do and do not want that.
I myself took a position when I got through the system in Thailand, that I said I don't buy a woman, a woman comes with her heart and otherwise I don't. I always said that with contacts.
Have a good, sweet wife with a daughter, came with her heart, her daughter is with us, should be with the mother based on Western concepts. We have a nice and cozy family without payments. Many western men want that young flower but not the children, yes they also have to eat and have to be paid for, but that is really not 10 to 15.000 thb p / m. Incidentally, I think if you choose a woman you also choose her luggage, so the children.
There is of course another big problem and that is the many teenage mothers and that number has increased sharply in recent years. So already in advance women who have been or will be rejected by the Thai man. The Thai government must do much more about this to eliminate as many possible future problems as a result.
Life with a Thai is no different for me than with a Westerner, you have to respect, appreciate and trust each other (the butterflies always go away, so don't build on that.) Communication on the same level is of course also very important, especially with 2 different cultures, so you can learn to understand each other, which makes life more enjoyable.
Greeting from Thailand
Roel
I fully agree with Maslow's theory and therefore also with the statement that Thai women are no different from Western / other women. I have reported the latter so many times on this blog.
It should be clear that the basic necessities of life and sense of security are the same for everyone. These are the first two levels of Maslow's theorem. The other three, namely social needs, recognition and appreciation and self-actualization are determined and/or influenced by environmental factors, such as culture and belief, and development. The development in non-western countries; or as we like to call it, the westernization of these societies; is no more than meeting (latent) needs as described by Maslow.
Back to the Thai woman. According to the Western man, he is always looking for financial security. Well, neither was the Dutch worker's daughter in the 30s. He also preferred to hook up with a dignitary rather than someone from his own environment. The fact that many Western women are (or can be) self-supporting means that their needs and therefore behavior have changed considerably in recent decades.
I myself have a Thai wife who has worked in the Netherlands (and America) for 35 years and her behavior and needs have clearly changed as a result. She no longer allows herself to be bullied by the first westerner, but responds appropriately. For many colonials living in Thailand, as I call them, that is a bit of a shock when they address her in the well-known condescending way. All the more so since her language skills (Thai/English/Dutch) are often of a considerably higher level.
In short, the Thai and Dutch women differ in terms of needs, and we are not talking about that here. It is true that the needs we have determine or can determine our behavior to a large extent. You see the latter in many countries where women in particular have little financial and/or social security. Just put a Thai woman in the Netherlands for a few years (without binding her to all kinds of rules and dictates) and you will see that her behavior visibly changes or westernizes.
@ Little to add, you hit the nail on the head.
Something to add, or actually to question 😉
Do you think that the behavior of Thai women in NL changes because certain universal needs are fulfilled in NL and that a Thai woman then moves to higher needs, or do you think that the pyramid of needs itself will look different in NL and Thai women will therefore behave differently?
Everyone seems to agree that Thai women start behaving differently when they live in the West. Since the thesis of the article is based on Maslow, the core of the discussion should, in my opinion, be whether women are moving up the universal hierarchy of needs (and are therefore no different from Western women) or whether the pyramid of needs itself is changing due to influences from the Western world. society (that would mean that Thai women are indeed different).
@ The pyramid itself does not change. When a Thai woman goes to live in the west, there is usually a social safety net. This will change her behavior also in relationships. After all, she no longer needs a partner to provide for certain basic needs. In addition, there are sufficient opportunities to meet the following needs. A Thai woman will then most likely also make other demands on the relationship and the partner (such as (emotional) intelligence, education, position, ambition and social status).
Totally agree, but apparently some misinterpret the statement by comparing the contemporary Western person/lady to the Asian/Thai one. A comparison with the west of about 100 years ago is therefore better (lack of social security at the time, pillarization, social control, etc.). Or perhaps these readers should ask themselves how a Westerner (m/f) would develop if they were placed in Asia at a young age without social or financial security from their country of origin (west).
Dear Bacchus
Totally agree with you again. I also describe above how my wife
In the past 37 years things have changed. I can't articulate that as well as you, but it comes down to the same thing. She does not let anyone dictate the law to her and is articulate enough to reply to everyone. And suppose she is not inferior to any Dutch woman. Which has sometimes caused us some problems in Thailand
Because they think she only has a big mouth.
This is not an opinion, but that's just how it turned out. I can't deny that
What surprises me is that I only get thumbs down.
Then there is nothing left for me but to conclude that there are a lot of bloggers who think I'm lying. And that's a pity, that's not the case
With the very best regards, Kees
Dear Kees1, I wouldn't care much about those thumbs up, because I think the buttons are pressed in a rather oversimplified way. Reading and understanding are two different things.
I am happy to read that your wife has also been able to develop into a worldly wise lady. The fact that you have been together for so many years indicates that your relationship has suffered little from those changes. That shows respect for each other. I also assume that your wife, like my wife, has changed little in character. She will be more assertive and will have her own opinion more than before, in other words: she will have more personality. But besides that, she will still be just as sweet, caring, helpful, etc. as before. That's in the character.
If you read through the reactions, it is striking that many gentlemen mix up two things or do not know the difference, namely the need for (personal) development and character traits.
The need for (personal) development is universal, that is also what Maslow describes and you can therefore also see it in the development of your and my wife (and many other Thai women who are given the opportunity). That makes us the individuals that we are and mind you: this also makes the world develop further. If that need were not there, we would all still be walking around with a club, walking around with a chamois leather, living in a cave and sitting around a campfire. Of course, not everyone will develop into an Einstein. This has everything to do with environmental factors, the most important of which is education, but also the IQ and EQ of the person. Faith can also play an important role here. Take a look at Afghanistan and similar countries; the women are eager to develop themselves, but are suppressed and are therefore not given the opportunity.
Character traits, such as sweet; caring; helpful; arrogant; curious; naive; etcetera are much more personal. These are often fixed in your genes and are (partly) partly determined by upbringing, culture, social environment and partly also development and EQ.
Everyone has the need to develop; in this the Thai woman does not differ from the Western woman in any way.
Character traits are much more personal. You have sweet, caring, helpful, arrogant, naive, etcetera women in Thailand, but you also have them in the west. So actually the Thai woman does not differ from the Western woman in this either. However, it seems that the aforementioned properties are more common in Asian countries, for example. This in turn has to do with upbringing, culture, social environment.
There is also an intertwining between development and character. Some character traits will change as personal development increases. They will become less naive, more empowered, more confident, etc. They will therefore become more self-willed, will no longer swallow everything for sweet cake and will therefore desire more. The latter can be both material and immaterial. So there are more questions like "why" and "why" and many gentlemen here don't like that, so the ladies are kept under control or, when the influence has faded too much, pushed aside. “Then we'll charge a new one” is what this is called in Pattaya jargon.
The gentlemen who think that Thai ladies are different from the Western ones have a low EQ and therefore find it difficult to empathize with a different socio-cultural environment. You will not find these gentlemen in the Isaan, for example, but they will always look for like-minded people in the well-known Thai (bath) places. I advise these gentlemen to do an EQ test via the internet, maybe then the blinkers will fall off.
To be a member of an impeccable flock of sheep, one must first and foremost be a sheep.
Albert Einstein
German – American physicist 1879-1955
If I wanted to be a member of a flock of sheep I wouldn't live where I live now, but with the sheep in the sheepfold. Guess where that is.
An excellent summary of what all this boils down to, I completely agree with you. But it seems that there are quite a few gentlemen who think differently about this (that is allowed, although I wonder why they consider your summary to be negative or untrue). I hope that these are not especially men who, as you describe, are not happy with a woman who develops and stands up for her own interests, interests and needs. but I still get the ghost image of a handful of men who can't decorate a ladies' bike and like to import a glorified housekeeper... brrr.
Moderator: to you and everyone else, comments that are not about this statement will not be posted anymore.
Moderator: do not respond to each other, but to the statement.
shak says,
“The Western women are much stricter, have many prejudices and often have strong opinions about how something should be done or how something should be.”
Isn't that precisely what is reflected in the responses to this topic from the
(most Western) male readers of this article?! So the implication of this is that there really is a difference between Thai and Western culture regardless of whether you are a woman or a man. I don't believe a Thai man would react the same way to such an article. Or am i seeing this completely wrong?
Dear Ronny LP; thanks for your response yesterday. The "charging story" of mine was also somewhat provocative (I like provoking a reaction) but this is often the jargon that is spoken a lot in Pattaya. By the way, I completely agree that most "ladies" come from isaan (from my own experiences). Only your ringing finger fell wrong for me, hopefully you understand that too! Greetings.
Dear Willem
No problem. As I said, I sometimes go too short and think only afterwards (too late) that I could have phrased it better in a different way. So I don't mind if someone reminds me of that now and then. So all understanding for this.
However, I think we'd better stop before the moderator reminds us we're chatting. Hopefully he will overlook this sidestep. Regards.
It has also become completely clear to me why I, and with me many normal gentlemen, avoid Pattaya. If “ladies charge” is a common jargon in Pattaya, it shows once again what kind of “gentlemen” are walking around there and for what purpose. Except for the good ones, of course.
And these gentlemen claim that the Thai women are different. They should hold up a mirror to themselves.
Can find me in the statement.
First of all, take the step to move far away to another country where everything seems strange at first, which shows courage and willpower to leave your family and your familiar surroundings behind in order to have a better life to create not only for yourself but also for the home front.
However, over time when they are used to and are no longer so necessarily dependent on their husband who goes everywhere as a private driver, guide, translator and fill it in, they logically also become less affectionate.
They have got to know the language reasonably to well, they now have a job, perhaps a driver's license and possibly also the education of the children who require the necessary attention, and then there will also be cooking and various household chores. .
In short, in the long run, daily social life differs essentially little or not at all from that of her Western counterparts, in other words, women who not only want to take care of mother, cook, housekeeper and erotic stimuli, but self-confident independent women who want to make a general contribution to society. by keeping a family going and with a job also contributing to extra income, which also benefits her supporters in Thailand and, moreover, the tickets for the annual holiday to Thailand are already expensive enough.
However, cultural differences will always exist, as it should be.
In my opinion, it is also not necessary or desirable to assimilate completely, because it is precisely the charm of having a relationship with a foreign girlfriend/wife who continues to maintain habits, norms and values from her home country and, moreover, still has a full-fledged member of society.
Which is completely different from the necessary integration or that other loaded word 'integration' that everyone with a foreign woman will or has had to deal with where the Thai women, in contrast to unnamed women of other foreign origin, have to deal with. generally very successful.
As can now be read very topically in the BangkokPost, it can be read that because of Obama's re-election today, a Thai-American woman will hold a seat in the US Senate as a representative of the Democratic Party. All in due time, but I am convinced that one of the next generations a woman of Thai origin will take a seat in our 2nd Chamber.
That there are also Thai women -however sweet and caring- who otherwise like it that way, who hang around on the couch between the household, whether or not watching soap operas and playing games together with her compatriots, is undeniable.
Please forgive me because in itself there is nothing wrong with that if the husband and wife are happy with that and mutual respect is not neglected.
But even then the statement is maintained that they are essentially no different than Western women can be, because we all know the caricature of the coffee-drinking housewife who is still under the roof because she has a man who takes care of the finances.
That many men quietly want to have the last mentioned as a wife is so much the point not in a mutual loving relationship but if I may boldly deviate from the statement - although it is referred to in the article - is that there are indeed men too are those who always criticize Western women because they are not caring and or over-emancipated.
Those men will have to consult themselves because in fact they also say that they cannot even handle Western women or that they have been even better under the stick, but they will never want to admit that and that…
It is often those men who cannot yet decorate a ladies bicycle and therefore think they are fun by making disgusting disrespectful comments that they would rather have a Thai woman because they are obliging, have good sex and they also pour you a beer.
Sir Charles, a clear story that I fully agree with, and you hit the nail on the head with the last two paragraphs.
Many of these gentlemen still think that they make the Thai ladies intensely happy with only a piece of financial security that often does not amount to much more than eating and drinking every day and a (good) roof over their heads, which of course must be compensated with compulsory sex. and a helpful attitude. The fact that these ladies ultimately also strive for a bit of independence is not accepted by the gentlemen.
In the Netherlands (but also Thailand) I have seen many relationships fail due to the many restrictions imposed on the ladies. They are often not allowed to work, partly because of this they have no control over the finances and therefore always have to hold out their hand; are bound to the house, trips are only allowed together with the husband, etcetera. There will undoubtedly be ladies who accept this for some time, but every sane person understands that this will go wrong in the long run. And then of course it's complaining about that ungrateful Thai woman.
I won't generalize, but I recognize these types of men from a distance. It's those guys from your ladies bike. Out of self-protection (read: fear of abandonment) they do not dare to loosen the reins, afraid that this will give the lady the opportunity to run off, just like a Western woman would do in similar circumstances. And they often already have that knowledge.
I know many Thai ladies in the Netherlands who have all thrown off this financial mess and have built an independent existence that meets all Western standards.
When I read this piece, I immediately thought of our Moluccan compatriots. I have many friends here, partly because my parents have lived in Indonesia for a long time. In Indonesia these people were also very obliging. Their needs seemed limited, but that was mainly because they were severely curtailed. In the Netherlands, this group was eventually able to develop normally and has the same ideals and needs as the average Dutch person. Why wouldn't this apply to a Thai, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laosian, Ghanaian, Peruvian, etcetera woman? People who think this way are stuck in the colonial era and still believe that only the Westerner can develop. How different the world is and Maslow has seen that well.
Dear Charles
Your first paragraph is one that I don't think has been given any attention on the blog. Which is actually best. Because it really isn't as you say.
I think there is often a story behind it. Especially for those women who took that step 30 – 40 years ago. If you talk about this with your wife years later, it is an emotional story. But I'm going off topic I guess.
You say in the fifth paragraph. Cultural differences will always exist.
I agree with you, but that is no longer perceptible to the outsider
I think. And of course you can hardly say yes, fine that you are developing so well
But we keep that and that in mind, I like that.
Of course it doesn't work that way. But I think you agree with me
Other than that I totally agree with you
I also thank Bacchus for his great response again
With kind regards, Kees
Moderator: Your comment is off topic.
Sorry, I had thought it through a bit, but I got the feeling that only men here are only with a Thai woman because she is so sweet. And that these women have no input. Therefore, I found the aspect I described equally important to why many would like to have a Thai woman as a life partner.
But to say it again: I think there are definitely differences between a Western-raised woman and a Thai or Asian-raised woman. A Thai who was born and raised in the Netherlands by Western parents will, for the most part, also behave like a Western woman…
I personally find an Asian simply more attractive and they differ from Western women to me, whether this is off-topic or not…
Moderator: This comment is not allowed, tends to chat.
Moderator: Your comment has nothing to do with the statement. Please respond to the statement.
Moderator: please only respond to the statement.
A human being has all the same basic needs.
These are food and moisture, clothing, and shelter.
From this you could draw the conclusion that all people are equal.
It is not untrue in my opinion, but also a very one-sided approach.
The same goes for Maslov's pyramid.
The basic human needs are the same. The ways in which it is provided vary.
This happens within the preconditions of a culture.
And that is also why we are so different.
The statement is incorrect; if only because of two fixed values that play a daily role in relationships, both business and private. Loss of face and jealousy. These traits are extreme – rarely found in this extreme form in the Western world – and are fueled by a huge inferiority complex. Thais have a permanent dillema. They want to take advantage of the Western man (and his fortune) but at the same time they are envious of the fact that he is so fortunate. This is also the case, to a lesser extent, throughout Asia. Small example: I have never seen a mannequin with an Asian face in all of Asia. We are THE example. People think we are handy to use but incredibly arrogant. I could write a book about incidents that happened to me and some of my friends, all involving extreme jealousy and loss of face. These excesses – often for reasons that are irrelevant, incomprehensible in some cases – have led to destruction, fighting, theft, divorce, unlivable situations. I have had five more or less lasting relationships in the Netherlands, but none of these women can compare in the slightest with the Thai ladies I have met. Perhaps it is also a statistical fact that after five years only 5% of the Thai/Dutch relations that once started are still standing……! This percentage is significantly higher in the west. How could that be?
Dear Theo,
You are right and it is so obvious. I cannot understand that this is being denied by some gentlemen. In their defense they say that their wives are different and/or that they have a better outlook or they speak very demeaningly about western men in Pattaya and their experiences.
I myself am in Udon a lot and what you describe, I can write volumes about. The Thai woman is not only different, especially the Thai family is different from a Dutch family. When the Thai young woman cannot contribute enough and improve the financial status of the family, she is blackmailed, humiliated and even threatened. She is bombarded with guilt-inducing indoctrinations. She can only free herself from this shame and guilt by doing what the family wants. An average Dutch family will not do this to their daughter. This is a negative example, there are also positive differences. I too have had lasting relationships in the Netherlands and regardless of any judgment, it cannot be compared.
Dear Theo, you are very generalizing and also very haughty.
Thai – I assume you mean the Thai women – are eager to take advantage of the Western man (and his fortune) and are envious of him being so fortunate. I would dismiss this as utter nonsense. If this were the case, then every wise and sensible western man would not seek a relationship here, let alone enter into it. Or are they, as usual in cases like this, blinded by love again? In addition, I only know 4 foreigners in the area with only a meager benefit / pension with which they do not even meet the visa requirements for married people in terms of income. What do you mean fortune and fortunate?!
The fact that only “western” fashion dolls are shown could have something to do with the fact that fashion is generally directed by western designers. Also at fashion shows you generally see “western” manequins. By the way, have you ever seen fashion dolls in the West with a black appearance, or for example Arab, Chinese or Hispanic? These are significant population groups in the west, but apparently we like to see ourselves as THE example, as you call it. That makes our arrogance right away!
Then the percentages you shake up your sleeve. You say these are “statistics”, but I can't find them. It would be nice if you could substantiate this for us. Makes your story a lot more believable.
By the way, you meet your statistical values well. Of course I don't know how old you are, but if you have already had 5 "long-term" relationships in the Netherlands, they will not have lasted much longer than the 5 years you mentioned. If I read your story correctly and especially understand it, your Dutch partners were also all equipped with an inferiority complex and were jealous, envious, afraid of losing face and out for your fortune; only less than the Thai ladies you have met. Maybe it's time for a little self-reflection!
All in all, your arguments why a Thai woman should be different from a Western one are in my opinion completely wrong. You mention inferiority complexes, arrogance, jealousy, envy, greed (out for your fortune) as deviant behavior (due to needs, because that's what we're talking about here), but they are just as common in the West. I would not know to what extent this behavior would differ from each other, as there are no statistical data on this. In short, what you describe is just a personal feeling and personal feelings are certainly not by definition generally established facts and correctness.
Hello Bacchus… I completely agree with what you write… Theo's arguments are not very convincing and I don't believe there are as many relationships breaking up as he claims. Unless you take the ratio girl 19 and man 64…
Of course it's not easy, because culture plays a big role in a relationship… and that's where the differences are that are talked about all the time.
Inferiority complexes? I don't notice that. Appreciation and admiration… and a lot of respect.
Reversed? A lot of arrogance from our western world. We are so much better, many in the Netherlands or other non-Asian countries believe.
That Thai women are different from Western in mentality, the way they treat their partner is beyond dispute. And luckily they are so different… that makes the whole thing much more interesting..
Dear Theo
You have already had some relationships, so you undoubtedly know better why a relationship fails than I do. It's never happened to me.
You state that so many Thai-Dutch relationships are stranded and you ask how could that be? Now I have the impression from the way you ask that you know that
Now I'd like to know that too. And kindly ask you to explain that to me
Maybe then I can explain something to you. In doing so, we learn from each other.
win win situation right?
Sincerely, Keith
@ Theo, you generalize quite a bit (has the moderator been sleeping?). Maybe you should look into it yourself? Because I always read Thai women, they do this or that. And what do you do then? Are you the perfect man?
If things go wrong in a relationship, it is by definition a Thai's fault. Doesn't that seem a bit short-sighted to me?
Well gentlemen, apparently I'm hitting a nerve after all. My argument is that 'loss of face' and 'jealousy' of Thai ladies in the extreme form in which it occurs cannot be found in that extremeness in Western women. That's what the statement was about, wasn't it? A huge difference. And yes, it leads to extreme behavior in a number of cases I know of, as previously described. All the men I know (approx. 50) in Hua Hin will confirm this.
Moderator: Your comment is too personal. Don't just reply to each other.
Khan Peter,
Perhaps this piece - https://www.thailandblog.nl/maatschappij/thaise-vrouwen-en-jaloezie/ -
a confirmation? It was posted by you (I think) on this blog.
@ Theo, yes that part is mine. By the way, it literally says that some Thai women jealous and not Thai women, still an important difference. If you live in Thailand, you can also understand why some Thai women are jealous. The competition and the offer is great. In addition, it is also a loss of face for the lady in question if the man pisses next to the pot.
Kuhn Peter, may I correct you one more time? Your piece says, quote….
Control
If you go out with some friends in Thailand, you can set the clock by it. Every so often someone from the group is called by his Thai partner, to check what the person is up to.
unquote….and this is a wonderful example from practice, not just mine….
case closed as far as I'm concerned.
@Theo, you can also quote the whole article, but I don't understand what you want to say? Read my previous comment again.
Theo, Your comments make a lot clear. You mean that it is not the Thai women (in general) who are jealous, but the Thai wives of the men who believe they have the exclusive right to spend every day/evening alone with friends. This of course without any harm in mind, because they go to the local shul-societe which is only open to men, so why are those women so jealous?! And of course these gentlemen also allow it when the woman/partner only goes out with her friends when it suits her. You will not hear a bad word from the gentlemen about this.
I now also understand the 5% from your self-examination among your 50 friends and now even find it a bit on the high side!
But again, jealousy also occurs among Western women, also in extremes; as well as the other things you mention in your comments. The substantiation of your statement is therefore flawed on all sides and is, as I said before, based on a personal feeling or personal experiences, but these say nothing about the generality.
Incidentally, I think it's a bad thing that the Thai ladies in general are put in a bad light in this unfounded way.
I think everything has been said on this subject. And since there are no new points of view, I close the discussion and thank everyone for the responses.