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Home » Reader question » Reader question: I am self-employed and want to work from Thailand. What kind of visa do I need?
Reader question: I am self-employed and want to work from Thailand. What kind of visa do I need?
Dear readers,
I work as a freelancer exclusively for an American company. Because I work in the IT sector, it doesn't matter to me where my work location is as long as I'm online at set times.
Because of this, I want to go to Thailand for a while around June 2014 to carry out my work there and I am thinking of a period of 6 months to 1 year. I will continue to be registered in the Netherlands.
Who can advise me on what kind of visa I should apply for?
Regards,
Vince
Hi Vince,
To work in Thailand, you need a work promit.
That is very difficult to get there in Thailand.
Even if you work from home, you occupy a job of a Thai.
Perhaps it will work through your American employer, who must apply for this at the Thai embassy in the USA.
Sooner or later the immigration officer will come and deport you from the country.
Don't underestimate
Greetings Nico
Dear Nico,
Your response & conclusion are based on incorrect assumptions, because (a) you do not work for a company established in Thailand (= work permit required), and (b) the questioner does not occupy a Thai job either, because he works for a company in NL or US based company and (c) also does not receive his 'remuneration' in Thailand (he only uses it in Thailand), and (d) he also does not 'permanently' settle in Thailand.
In the latter case he might receive his income in Thailand = through a Thai bank account, and might be well advised to start a firm or a company in Thailand; however, this is a very different, considerably more complex situation that requires much more research and has no relation to the question.
Due to the possibilities of the internet, the questioner prefers to stay in Thailand for a longer period, but he still works in the Netherlands (via the internet) on the basis of his Dutch contract. In my opinion, that is not a problem at all – until regulations are adapted internationally in this regard. The situation of the questioner is essentially no different from (increasingly) tourists who maintain daily contact with their 'work' abroad during their Thai holiday.
See also the answer from Chris (29 December 2013 at 02:34) and Jeffrey (28 December 2013 at 15:41). There are more and more people working on this basis. The situation of Sjaak S (December 29, 2013 at 04:29) is clearly different, because he performs 'physical work' in Thailand and also receives his income in Thailand; however, even that is not a problem under strict conditions according to Immigration in Hua Hin.
Applying for a Non-Immigrant ED Visa is only a solution for Daniel (December 28, 2013 at 12:17) to learn the Thai language (the rules for an ED Visa have recently been tightened*), but not for any other occupation. Daniel is apparently looking for a method to stay in Thailand 'undisturbed' almost permanently; unfortunately that is not really possible (a) if you are not yet 50, or (b) are married to a Thai, or (c) meet extensive rules for establishing a company in Thailand (see 2nd paragraph), or ( d) make a minimum investment in Thailand (consult the relevant regulations; this is a substantial amount**). I do not recommend an ED Visa for the questioner as it is definitely not necessary. I agree with Luckyluke on that point (December 28, 2013 at 11:07); the matter is unnecessarily complicated.
*See Thailandblog December 24, 2013, Stricter requirements for Non-Immigrant Visa ED
**See Thailandblog file 'Visa Thailand' for links
Dear MACB,
I have considered opting for Tourist Visa again, as this is not a problem, I have several options to travel in and out of Thailand, which I do anyway, the only drawback is that the dates are scheduled for you in response to Visa expiration dates So not the best solution.
In addition to this option, I could soon choose to be married to Thai, but this is not a fact at the moment and do not want to be forced to take this step. My girlfriend is busy learning the NL language and I would like to know more about the Thai language and that is why I was already planning to focus on it anyway. Since this option also immediately gives an Education Visa, I saw this as the simplest legal way in my situation.
I have now heard several times that I do or do not need a work permit, but the strange thing is if you want to apply for one, this is not possible in the construction in which you work without a Thai company / client. That is why I have accepted this, but I find the discussion interesting since I do not want to have any fines or problems in Thailand as a result of this point.
Tomorrow I will contact a lawyer in Thailand to request information, will share the results here.
We are expected to end up with LuckyLuke's solution and I will use the ED visa solution.
I have spoken to a lawyer who has confirmed that it is not possible to obtain a Business Visa and/or Working Permit. After telling complete story the main questions were? Do you do business with people in Thailand? Do you work for or together with people in Thailand? Do you earn money in Thailand? If you can answer all these questions with “no”, your main purpose is that you are in Thailand not for business and it comes down to whether you are a tourist or can study (Education Visa). The simplest option is a Tourist Visa where you only run into the expiration of the visa. If you really want to learn, they recommend their direct Education Visa as you don't have to deal with your Visa expiring every month.
He does, however, indicate that you do not advertise that you work in Thailand, because this is not the case. You are a tourist or student here and that also applies to your Visa application. The fact that you do work for your NL company is not important in this story.
After coming across this subject again in recent days, I also started to have doubts about my situation, but I think it is actually just a situation that is quite new and does not fit in with Thai regulations. The lawyer also indicated that this might be different in the future, but this was going to take a long time….
Good idea, Daniel, possibly for Vince too.
A triple entry Tourist Visa = 3 x (60 days standard + 30 days extension in Thailand at Immigration @ 1900 Baht) = say 9 months. To activate the next (2nd & 3rd) entry you have to leave the country every 90 days by van (usually to Cambodia) or by (cheap) same-day-return flight to Malaysia (KL) or Singapore (for these you do not need a visa for both countries).
And at the end of the 9 months you can also use the Visa Exemption scheme; the allowed length of stay depends on how you (re)enter Thailand: by plane = 30 days, by van/train = 15 days; however, in aggregate not more than 90 days out of a total of 180 days counted from the first Visa Exemption entry; see Thailandblog dossier Visa Thailand.
A multiple entry Non-Immigrant Visa O is also possible if you can meet the fairly simple rules = 1 year. Get out of Thailand every 90 days (it doesn't matter how you come back). There are people who have been doing this for years. After all, anyone can take a 'sabbatical', especially if there are no problems with the income requirements. Moreover, you have a Thai girlfriend. A Non-Immigrant Visa ED (education) is also possible, but please note the stricter rules, especially for earlier stays in Thailand.
Your worries are completely gone if you can meet the requirements for the 'Thai Women Visa' = extension of a Non-Immigrant O Visa (or Toursit Visa that then has to be transferred to Non Imm O) with 1 year at a time. You never have to leave Thailand that year; report to Immigration every 90 days.
But whatever you do, never report that you are going to work in Thailand (among other things) via the internet for a company abroad. That can & will mislead some civil servants, or lead them to certain thoughts, with all the consequences that entails. As your lawyer also reports: you are certainly not doing anything against the Thai rules regarding work & work permit.
Hi Vincent
Don't make it harder than it is, try to get a 6 month tourist or year visa without mentioning that you will be working in Thailand. (otherwise you also need a work permit and that is not easy)
I assume that you just want to do your work online for a few hours a day, then there is no Thai who can say that you are working because every tourist is doing something on his PC every day.
So just hang out as a tourist and enjoy this beautiful country.
Gr. luckyluke
Almost forgot
Wishing everyone a happy new year, and may we read many more beautiful stories on this blog in 2014.
My good intention is that I will also put something on the blog.
Gr. luckyluke
There are no real rules (yet) for this way of working. In my opinion, all you need is a 1-year Non-Immigrant Visa 'O' = out of Thailand every 90 days, or a triple-entry Tourist Visa = up to 9 months including 3 visa runs.
After all, you do not work in Thailand for a Thai company (see last paragraph), but via the internet. You work for a company in the US or in NL with which you maintain intensive contact, and you do not get paid for it in Thailand (you have to take care of that), and you remain registered in the Netherlands. The reason why you live in Thailand is purely personal & temporary; you are essentially a long-term tourist.
It is advisable not to mention this 'working via the internet' on any document, and certainly not on the visa application or on the visa extension (Tourist Visa) in Thailand, because that only leads to unnecessary complications because the officials at the can & will put the wrong foot. Stick to 'long-term tourist'; Thailand should be happy to have such tourists.
You must then keep this image permanently in all respects. For example, in principle, do not buy/rent/pay anything in the name of your 'company'; everything in your private name. If that is not possible, then I think you essentially establish your company (temporarily) in Thailand and then you fall under completely different rules. Also an option, but with many hooks & eyes.
Moderator: please respond to the reader's question.
Vince,
Your questions are very interesting I am in a similar situation. Already lived in Thailand with tourist visa for the past 6 months. Actually, I didn't run into any problems, only the expiration of a Visa is sometimes annoying, but I have several friends living in Asia, so I made trips for a few days to China, Hong Kong, Singapore, etc.
I myself once very briefly studied other Visa and Working Permits, but heard of many rules and things that you encounter.
Finally, I registered a month ago to learn Thai and received an Education Visa for 15 months. I do this not only to get a visa, but also really want to try to learn the Thai language. This should be very simple and I brought all the necessary papers from Thailand to NL. Have already spoken to the Embassy in The Hague, but they were immediately very suspicious and started asking all kinds of questions. Finally got advice to come by in January 2014, didn't like it around holidays given the crowds there. Now yesterday I read about the adjusted rules regarding the Education Visa application, so I still have to find out what the consequences are.
Given that I wonder whether I will be able to obtain the above Visa, I am also looking for other options and am starting to wonder what the options are including Working Permit to do it all right. Don't want to get into trouble with Immigration!
You can contact me: 06-30300333
I am also looking for advice from other people in a similar situation.
Gr. Daniel
Moderator: please don't chat.
I would think who better to answer this question than Khun Peter
Do I still have a question for MACB Why should Thailand be happy with such tourists
Thailand is currently in a very difficult phase, and this will not be resolved for a while, even with new elections in February (if they go ahead at all). Many tourists (or actually: tour operators/organizers) avoid Thailand because of 'disturbances' in Bangkok, but these also take place elsewhere, not in touristic places. Every tourist is therefore welcome, especially those who will stay for a long time, because this means employment & income for Thais.
Vince,
Very interesting topic.
I think MACB has the right answer, but I'm not 100% sure.
I have a contract in the Netherlands for a Dutch company, but when I am in Thailand I continue to work.
I don't think this can cause any problems, provided you, as a tourist, get the necessary visas.
A double entry tourist visa gives you 2X 60 days.
After this you fly out of the country for a short holiday and you can stay for another month.
We can also turn things around.
Suppose a Thai comes to the Netherlands on a holiday and he goes to your house to continue his work for his boss in America via the internet.
The man has a Thai contract and receives money in his account in Thailand.
Doesn't seem like a problem to me.
Hello Vince,
Working through a visa other than a work visa is not allowed in Thailand.
As far as I know you cannot get a work visa for self-employed online work, because such a job is not defined in Thai regulations. So you are in a kind of impasse within Thai law.
The only thing that is officially possible is to start a company in Thailand, but this in your case does not seem favorable to me, also given the time span (6-12 months)
Then you need: Money (2 million Baht if unmarried), at least 2 Thai persons as employees for the first year. Also, strictly speaking, you can only own 49%.
My advice is: Don't make it too difficult for yourself; try to get an education visa: this is relatively cheap.
Yes may not work officially, but Thai law also does not provide appropriate modern regulations.
And besides, if you were to work all day in Starbucks, next to an immigration officer, how can he/she prove that you are doing work or that you are engaged in your hobby?
Within the scope of the law you do not take the place of a Thai in your case.
They really do have other things on their minds.
I would, however, remain registered in the Netherlands, given medical expenses, AOW accrual, etc.
The maximum time that you are allowed to stay abroad without deregistration is 8 months per year, but if there are no deviating matters, there is no control if this were to be a month longer.
\I met an Icelander last year who has been living here for 6 years as a tourist. Is an ICT person, has his own company in Iceland, always works online, sends invoices from his address in Iceland, receives the money in an Icelandic account (and simply withdraws baht from the ATM). Has a tourist visa and extends it every 3 months by leaving Thailand for a short or longer period of time. Has never had any problems and never pushed money to an official.
At the beginning of this year I checked at the immigration office in Hua Hin how I had to go about getting a work permit. The explanation was as already described above.
I have a Non immigrant Visa O with multiple entry. That would mean that in order to apply for a work permit, I would also have to apply for a completely new visa.
When I explained what I wanted to do, namely installing computers at customers' homes, repairing them, etc., they told me that as long as I did this for private individuals (and 100% for foreigners), I would not have to apply for a permit. I just wasn't allowed to work in public businesses, such as restaurants, bars or hotels.
Of course this is not official, but that's what I was told.
I also know someone who also works on his computer from home every day. He receives his income in an account in his country of origin.
So, I think, you're going to make it extra difficult for yourself by applying for a work permit, as long as you work at home. There will be no rooster crowing and if you want to do it legally, you have your money deposited in a bank outside Thailand. There are plenty of international banks where you can do this. Is it an American company for which you work, can you perhaps open an account through your company and deposit your income there? With a credit card it is easy to get your money.
Dear Vincent,
If you are caught in Thailand without a work permit, etc., I think there is a good chance that you will be punished with fines and possibly deportation. In this I disagree with a number of previous commentators. You may not be guilty according to the letter of Thai law. However, it can quickly turn out that you have to prove that you are not wrong and that is not a position you want to be in.
I agree with many writers that the chance of getting caught is minimal. Make sure you stay under the radar of the authorities and better make sure that your story also stays out of the expat gossip circuit.
Incidentally, a business visa and a work permit can easily be arranged through a Thai “umbrella company”. This works roughly in the same way as in NL (such as Yellowstone, for example) but of course costs money. You will also start paying tax in TH.
However, if you would like to settle permanently in Thailand, there are ways to significantly reduce your tax bill through such an umbrella.