Few Dutch people abroad have regrets
At Tilburg University, a project group is engaged in long-term research into the homesickness and regret of Dutch people abroad.
I participated in this study by completing a questionnaire three times in a period of roughly six months. I now received an interim report with a small selection of the findings, of which I have made an abbreviated version.
The participants
The total number of participants in the study is not stated: the Dutch in the study live in more than 90 countries, most of them in France (8,6%) followed by Spain (7,4%), Thailand (7,3% ), the US (6,5%) and Canada (6,1%).
The average age was quite high at 56 years. The vast majority (66,2%) are married or cohabiting and the average duration of the current relationship is 22 years. No fewer than 73,4% have children.
In terms of residential environment, it is fairly evenly distributed, but slightly more respondents live in a rural environment than in an urban environment. No fewer than 83% live wholly or largely among the local population
I'm sorry
Firstly, it was remarkable that relatively few Dutch people regretted moving. About 60% turned out to have no regrets at all and the others had varying degrees of regret. So there are not really many Dutch people abroad who very much regret their decision to seek their happiness beyond the borders of the Netherlands.
For the sake of completeness, it should be noted that the results should be interpreted with caution. The big problem with this kind of research is always that it cannot be ruled out that people for whom the departure from the Netherlands all turned out very positively were more willing to participate in this research than the people for whom it all turned out less rosy. And the latter group, at least in part, may have returned to the Netherlands after a while. This means that it cannot be concluded too firmly that most Dutch expats are doing well. Many are doing very well, that is clear.
This study shows that women have more regrets than men and that regret increases slightly the longer they have been away. It is also remarkable that Dutch people who live in North America and also Australia/New Zealand have significantly more regrets than Dutch people who live in Asia.
Homesickness
There is a strong correlation between homesickness and regret, slightly stronger in women than in men. Women especially miss family and friends, Dutch books and other printed media and the Dutch mentality. There is only one thing that Dutch men miss more than women: Dutch football.
Homesickness for the Netherlands turned out not to be seasonal. At all measurement moments, homesickness for the Netherlands turned out to be equally strong and it was not the case that it was amplified in the summer or Christmas period.
Satisfaction
The research also shows that Dutch people abroad are more satisfied with their lives compared to their compatriots at home. They score slightly higher when it comes to “life satisfaction”. This applies to a greater extent to men than to women. In the Netherlands, men and women score equally high when it comes to “life satisfaction” (25,3), but abroad Dutch men appear to have an even more positive attitude to life than Dutch women. (27,7 vs. 26,6).
The (physical) living environment, climate and tranquility of the new country of residence are regarded by both men and women as very important for their well-being. For women, the way of dealing with others and safety is also very important. Regret negatively affects the level of satisfaction in your life. Because the living environment is very important, regretting the choice of country of residence can have major consequences for “life satisfaction”.
Assess country of residence
We also looked at which aspects Dutch people abroad rate their new country of residence as better or worse than their country of origin. The following dimensions were distinguished:
- Deal with people
- Government
- Living environment: climate and nature
- FACILITIES
- Health (care)
- Safety
- Culture: Wed religion, food
- Freedom
- Opportunities for personal development
- Economy
Comparison of the current country of residence with the Netherlands shows that Dutch people abroad find their new country of residence better than the Netherlands in terms of the (physical) living environment, climate and tranquility. The Netherlands is rated higher than their current country of residence when it comes to government and social services. Otherwise, no significant systematic differences were found.
Graduation studies
In the meantime, three students have also completed their graduation research based on your answers. Below is a very brief summary of the results of their investigations.
1. Nostalgia as therapy
Because homesickness is a condition that can be accompanied by serious and long-term complaints that can impede functioning in daily life, it has been investigated whether people with homesickness can make themselves feel better by recalling nostalgic memories. Can reminiscing about the past in the Netherlands help people? The research showed that homesickness can be a trigger for nostalgia and that homesickness is indeed associated with more nostalgia. However, it was not clear how exactly the direction of the connection between homesickness and nostalgia is. We could not demonstrate that inducing nostalgia had a beneficial effect on homesickness.
2. Regret and Culture Preservation
Does retaining one's own culture and/or adopting the new culture affect how much someone regrets? Firstly, the survey showed that most Dutch people abroad find it important to adopt the culture of their new country of residence to a greater or lesser extent. Most were not so concerned with the extent to which they would preserve Dutch culture. It was expected in advance that people who would both retain their own culture and adopt (integrate) the new culture would experience the least amount of regret. This turns out not to be the case. The people who adopted the new culture and let go of their own culture (assimilation) appeared to have the least regrets.
3. Regret, control and goals
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the study also found that if the Dutch felt they would achieve their set goals, they were less likely to regret the move. Women had mainly gone abroad in search of better living conditions and adventure. These were also important reasons for men, but work was also of great importance. It also investigated whether the degree to which someone felt they had control over the outcome of their future would influence regret. However, no clear correlation was found here.
So much for the research. I am now in contact with the project group, because I would like to know the results of Thailand in the research. How many Dutch people living in Thailand participated in this study and what conclusions can be drawn from this? I will come back to this story later.
If you live in Thailand and would like to participate in future surveys, please send an email to [email protected]
What I always ask myself when I read about such research again, is that what good is it?
And what are you going to do with the results of such an investigation?
Or will they investigate even more, for example what influence does the sun have on people's state of mind, well then I can already give them the answer to that, the sun makes you happy!
Maybe I'm seeing it all wrong, but it all seems so useless to me, what do you graduate from?
No, I'm not talking about studies like this, other than medical examinations I do see the usefulness and importance of that, but I don't need research to understand why and in our case most expats do not regret coming to Thailand to live.
If you still live in the Netherlands as in my case, I still live in Rotterdam then you only have to look around and it is clear why people emigrate to countries such as Thailand and do not regret it.
And if you don't see that, then you haven't been outside after the war, no study is really necessary for this, people are mostly fed up with it in the Netherlands and of course there are other reasons to emigrate, such as the climate, nature , population, culture, etc.
And yes I know the safety in Thailand is also deteriorating although I haven't noticed much of it myself, but when I walk in Bangkok at night I don't feel like I have to constantly look over my shoulder to see if people don't want to rob me, I do have this in Rotterdam.
And so I can name a laundry list of examples why a Dutch person feels happier in a country like Thailand, and does not regret his choice to emigrate, and for the researchers I would say look around you and you have the answer .
ftt
I will not say that all (so-called) scientific research is useful, at least not directly demonstrable, but each research can be of importance in the context of another research.
The first thing that appealed to me in this research, although not immediately surprising for Thailand connoisseurs, is the fact that Thailand ranks among the top countries to which Dutch people emigrate.
I contacted the project group to gain more insight into the answers of the respondents from Thailand. How many people have responded and can conclusions be drawn from their answers?
My point is that more and more Dutch people are emigrating to Thailand, but we don't know how many and we don't know what motivated them.
If Tilburg University could and would like to conduct a demographic study, we might gain more insight into the Dutch community in Thailand.
This may in turn be important to get Thailand recognized in “The Hague” and that some regulations for abroad will also apply to Thailand. Think in the first place of the fact that Dutch people who unsubscribe from health insurance are kicked if they move to a country other than a European country. Thailand should be given the same status, people should be able to stay with Dutch health insurance.
For example, there are more arguments why this research by Tilburg University can be important.
@Gringo, his arguments are good and they can certainly be important, totally agree!…but is an investigation needed for that, is it not known to the Dutch government how many compatriots have settled in Thailand for good?
We are talking about the Netherlands, a land of rules and regulations, where everything about everyone is kept up to date and registered, because when I look at the news, people are talking about the law of privacy, which has been passed again, whether it concerns medical files , or about mobile phones, or about sites on the internet being tapped, people just don't know what color underpants you are wearing, everything is known.
Maybe I'm going too far now, but you don't convince me that studies are needed to find out how many Dutch people live abroad.
And I also don't think that Dutch politics are interested in what the motive is when people immigrate, and if that is the case then I can help them out of their dreams the motive is that thanks to politics in the Netherlands and Europe this makes living and living environment has been screwed up to such an extent that people will look elsewhere for their salvation.
“Perhaps I am exaggerating too much now, but you are not telling me that studies are needed to find out how many Dutch people live abroad.”
The Netherlands does not register anything of people who leave, if you stay abroad for more than 8 months you must deregister yourself (or the municipality will deregister you if they find out, an "administrative correction"). But where to, why, for how long the move is intended, etc. is not registered. This has its drawbacks: it is not possible to give exact figures about how many Dutch people stay in Thailand, for example, why (work, love, old age, temporary study, etc.) and how long people intend to stay (some for a year, a few years , permanent, everything in between).
When you enter the gate, everything is registered again. Many figures are known about immigration (CBS, IND, …).
Of course, some estimates could be made if, for example, you look at whether benefits go abroad (AOW, pension, child benefit, ...), where people receive the mail, etc., but then you have no more than a very global picture. For example, someone can live in Thailand but send the mail via the Netherlands, have income deposited into a Dutch account, etc.
I like to know who, why, and for how long is leaving elsewhere. There is a lot of nonsense being proclaimed about migration figures, partly lazy talk, partly because some figures are simply not there and people are just going to color the picture with the best / worst intentions ... And indirectly, of course, it does have its uses, as Gringo argues. For example, Dutch politicians often forget the importance of expats and emigrants. Think of the fuss about the abolition of dual nationality (the VVD quickly backed down when expats and multinationals sounded the alarm that it is scandalous, the point of view that surrendering multiple nationality should only apply to immigrants to the Netherlands and not to people has changed) who have temporarily or permanently departed from the Netherlands). Whether “politicians” are really interested in citizens elsewhere? Bottom line, pennies (economic interests, trade interests, etc.) often seem decisive…
It is not about how someone personally experiences their life in NL, and sees reasons to leave NL in this. In general, 'people' think the tax burden is too high, see the welfare state being broken down, and are fed up with government interference. From that point of view, no research is indeed necessary, unless it concerns measuring the amount of grumpiness in NL.
People may decide to leave NL because they see more opportunities with a certain level of income. People may also want to leave because they see more personal opportunities for development.
There are enormous amounts of differences and variations of motifs in between.
Anyway: because people want to settle in a country other than NL, there is not enough research to be done. Gringo says that Tilburg University's research is about regret, homesickness, satisfaction and country of residence in 10 dimensions. That Gringo participated in the investigation, and that he shares the preliminary results with us, is to be commended. These kinds of studies provide a lot of data that we can benefit from now or later. To name but a few simple things: if it turned out that 'satisfaction' scored low among people abroad, many people would scratch their heads at the thought
to want to leave.
It is good that further research is being done on all these main and sub-items. The more we know how reality works, other than from personal tinted and colored observations and opinions of those who already live there (pensioners and other farang), the easier it becomes to make a good decision. The better the preparation can be. And the more responsive to the circumstances with which one has to get made. Measuring is knowing. And the more you know, the better you can anticipate. That is also a knowledge!
Why do so many Dutch people feel happier in Thailand than in the Netherlands?
Firstly, the weather is averagely good in Thailand. Here no tax on roads and high tax on cars
No women here who have a headache when you want to love them at night.
No high rents here.
No high energy bills here.
No officials here who spend all day thinking how can I rip people off one more leg financially. No youth gangs here who spit on and rob the elderly in the street.
No expensive costs in the supermarkets here.
Here through your wife freedom of business.
You can drive through here without a helmet, which costs 200 baht in Udonthani
Here a nice protest demonstration that fills the streets ha ha.
No real poverty here, everyone has something to eat, even the bums get free food at some restaurants.
Here not all kinds of laws and rules at the municipalities where you always have to pay a lot of fees in NL. No dog tax here.
Here you can tear around at 80 km per hour like an old geek on a fast scooter.
Here you still have free enterprise opportunities.
A 600 cl beer here is just as expensive as in the super in NL, but a pork tenderloin costs less than half in NL.
Cleaning rights 20 bath per month, they come to collect your garbage 12x per month!
The complainers here are usually the pub runners and Dutch people who want to play the big hunk at the bar chicks.
In NL a rented house and here they have to buy a house for a woman they barely got to know. That makes an impression, they think.
There are hundreds more parts to mention.
And Heimwhee is for wimps, we sailors used to say.
Many reactions show once again that the best helmsmen are ashore (living in NL).
Then the cons
Watch out that you don't get tricked by your lover (can be explained in many ways)
Healthcare costs are a bit high but affordable.
Not getting involved in domestic politics is a must, but you can have an opinion for yourself,
Furthermore, enjoy life, because sometimes it only lasts a while. And feel free to gossip about me. Then I know that you are a Fan of mine.
Jan Luck
You speak very derogatory about women, simulating Dutch women and you have to watch out for Thai women.
Could it not be that the Dutch women simulated having a headache and Thai women literally and figuratively let everything go over them?
There may be several reasons for this. Unwashed, no fresh breath and that beer belly with the remote control within reach, stretched out on the 3-seater sofa, in short, no longer the man they were so in love with at first?
Or perhaps often suffered a bruise in the past, which already started in high school as a teenager and has now left some kind of trauma, a trauma so strong that self-reflection has become lacking over the years and even so strong that gossip is pleasant have become on the assumption that they have gained fans.
Indeed, watch out that you don't get tricked, it's your own words...
Moderator: please don't chat.
Jan, with the money a Dutch person earns in the Netherlands and can spend in Thailand, they will indeed feel happier. That would also apply to a Thai. Then suddenly everything is cheap for them too. No civil servants who think how they can rip people off financially? I didn't know that there is no more corruption in Thailand. Of course it has a lot of advantages to live in Thailand. But there are also many disadvantages. If you feel there are more advantages than disadvantages, you will indeed feel happier. For as long as it takes, of course.
Well, it does not only apply to the Dutch, that they have little or no regrets about leaving the Netherlands. The Belgians I know who leave Belgium – and that number is steadily rising, every month I hear from someone that he/she wants to leave – really like to close the door behind them.
The reasons? Whether they have emigrated or not yet, all the people I know without exception gave me the following reasons. The destination countries include Switzerland, Chile, France, Greece, Thailand, and the US.
– tax burden.
– bureaucracy.
– no legal certainty.
– politics.
- climate.
– lack of respect in society.
Perhaps some of these factors are also present in the destination countries, I cannot confirm this first hand… But it is striking that everyone cites reasons for a lack of confidence in our institutions.
So if the gentlemen politicians still want people here to continue to contribute to our economy, then some things will have to change… Otherwise I cannot immediately see who will pay our pensions within x number of years… Or it would have to be immigrants who now also feel that they are not welcome here …
What would be interesting now is an investigation into whether or not Thai people who have emigrated to the Netherlands regret their choice. Or should they simply look around in Thailand to see the reasons why they do not regret that choice: no social security, low salaries, large gap between rich and poor, the high level of corruption, lawlessness, high level of crime, number of road deaths….and not to forget: more rain…(there is on average more rain in Thailand than in the Netherlands: that's a study that will help you…wink)
Dear Chris .
From acquaintances from the past and present, from Thais who go to the Netherlands but also to other countries
went to live.
Almost everyone wants to go back to Thailand.
Don't ask me why.
But I think that they first think that once they come to live in the Netherlands, for example, everything will be much better.
But then the way of life , their culture certainly strikes again .
Where I live in Thailand , there are many who have lived and worked abroad for years .
Even highly educated Thai with a Farang spouse .
They all live here now.
Dutch , Great Britain , Germany , Switzerland , Sweden , France , USA , Canada and Australia .
Having lived and worked there for years and after retirement or just before.
With the Farang ega back to Thailand .
And I live in a small hamlet not far from Chiangmai .
Jan Beute.
I read a lot of dissatisfaction about the Netherlands, but in fact the situation here is still very good, even though facilities that our population has long fought for are being demolished. It is clear that there are large groups of people who want to leave the Netherlands or who have already left.
I myself (talk about a few decades ago) have family in Canada and Australia who wanted to be in the Netherlands again but didn't have the money for it... There it was harder work than in the Netherlands and nevertheless there was not enough money to do something. to do something special such as visiting family in the Netherlands….
I have quite often met Dutch people abroad (in Thailand and Indonesia) who actually regret that they burned their ships. They are unable to come back for various reasons (mainly financial). It is a fact that there are people who never want to come back… but if they look deep into their hearts, the reality is often different than what they pretend to be. Who wants to be a “loser”…
I like to leave the Netherlands in the winter (only because of the cold and to celebrate holidays at the same time) but I am always happy that spring will come in the Netherlands: then I also want to go back. Because the Netherlands is really still a paradise compared to what I experience in the tropics. Wonderful the freedom to leave and come back again.
It's hard in the tropics (it always has been) and who wants to live (when I think of Thailand for a moment) in a country where a "monkey government" rules the roost...... Not that I'm happy with the Government here (on the contrary) but it is undeniably better (arranged) here than in the tropical countries.
My conclusion is that the Netherlands is paradise, but the warmth is most lacking…
Now I hope for Jan that there will soon be a place in a Dutch retirement home because they are all closing and becoming student houses.
You can only go to a nursing clinic, but then you have to be demented as a door and then selected.
They are breaking down the welfare state that we have built up and if you later live with your child or sister or brother, your AOW will be cut by 300 euros thanks to Mrs. Klijnsma PvdA who is working on it.
So they killed 2 birds with one stone and closed old people's homes and cut back on the AOW when living in, so it's not that good in Holland anymore, I think.
See it as an exception to the rule that it is better to live in NL than in Thailand.
You always have a difference of opinion.
Thailand has traditionally not been a highly governed country. Corruption is rampant. But if it doesn't bother you, it will pass you by. Until something happens and then you can “move”. You will be tolerated in Thailand until further notice…
About older people: you act as if every older person would like to live in a home for the elderly…. That is really an exception to the rule...
But when it becomes a nursing home, everything is different. We don't wish that on anyone. Caring for a person with dementia is not for everyone. But in any case it is not a free choice to be demented.
In Thailand, the grandmother and/or grandfather often live with their children and I can tell you that this is generally not appreciated in the Netherlands. It is handy in the sense that the grandparents can easily look after the little ones.
That grandma and grandpa live with the children in Thailand is quite normal there, but in the Netherlands we consider it a form of poverty.
And we can't talk about money and cutting benefits. It is often justified that cuts are made and sometimes it is distressing, but many people have found a solution for this. I'll leave it at this for now.
Last week I received from the SVB the worst unpleasant surprise of my life……
NB two weeks after my first AOW payment.
I just turned 3 65 months ago.
The first 5 words : You have moved to Thailand ………
And then a whole bunch of fantasized rubbish !!
You wonder where people are looking to deduct as much as possible from the pensioners at all costs !! What they have worked for all their lives.
Because now the man in “rest” has to fight again to defend his rights.
The worst statement: “Sir, you stay longer in Th every year than in NL. !!
You no longer have economic interests in NL.
The 8mth/4mth rule was no longer relevant to me.
WHAT IN GOD'S NAME AM I GOING WITH SO MUCH NONSENSE??
And then it comes:
Because you live in Th, you are no longer insured under the Dutch Health Insurance Act !!
When I immediately inquired at the GBA of my municipality whether I had moved to Th, the desbetr officials almost fell off their chairs.
I would like to hear some experiences and advice through this blog. And… Who is a suitable counselor in this.
He must then be able to get into trouble with the SVB.
I've worked hard all my life and I really intend to live my life my way, where I want to.
And then I want to spend 4 months a year with my 3 children and 3 grandchildren.
That's pretty nice.
Very annoying John,
I know little about the AOW and pension schemes, but since November last year I have been receiving both…..
Rules are rules. Or do you want there to be no rules…
And if it is correct what you receive as information, then that is correct after all… It is about the explanation of regulations and you can go deeper into it.
You no longer need to know all the laws of the Netherlands, but you are expected to be able to know the law. So you are being asked to take action if you think the law is being misapplied to you.
But apparently you want to know from "amateurs" how things are going. From your position (Thailand), I advise you to get in touch with a legal aid centre.
What always strikes me is that those who criticize the Netherlands in this way have only left when they have retired, a few have the courage to leave permanently much earlier.
I think it is very realistic and wish everyone to wish to spend their old age in Thailand, a different climate, etc. but do not understand that those who wait so long to leave and want to stay in the Netherlands in 'doom and gloom' all this time until they have reached retirement age, so be so courageous to pick up your things earlier, in other words, people in the Netherlands don't have it that bad with their social security, one can certainly conclude from that.
Thai women even go permanently to the Netherlands who have left their country to continue living in the Netherlands, although appealing to them, they always have a good time while they have left 'paradise' behind them… Except that in such a rotten country you don't live your loved one, then you immediately burn your Dutch ships behind you to live with her in the Thai nirvana.
I do realize that the Dutch welfare society is being gnawed at and that some things are wrong, but all in all it is a good place to be in that frog country, so half a year off and on, in short, enjoying the best of 2 different worlds, both countries are dear to me, I am a satisfied person.
Well said.
Variety (due to a temporary stay in the tropics) is so beautiful… Then you also learn to appreciate the Netherlands. Now that's luxury.
@Sir Charles, you do overlook a number of things with your response, and that is that not everyone is able to leave earlier, not financially or because of other obligations.
For one person it is a piece of cake to emigrate, for another there are so many snags, for example children and grandchildren that one has to leave behind.
If I speak for myself, the generation to which I belong and who now report on the Netherlands is also the generation that knows how things used to be in the Netherlands, and many have never thought about ever leaving the Netherlands.
But when I reach retirement age of 65 after a life of hard work in a few years, I want to be able to enjoy a carefree old age with my wife.
I was born and raised in Rotterdam (south) where it was always a very good place, until about the last twenty years, now it is the most criminal part of the city in the Netherlands, where I live there is a robbery or robbery every day, every month a shooting incident and so on.
I really didn't have in mind that everything would look like it does now, the Netherlands is no longer my Netherlands.
“What always strikes me is that those who criticize the Netherlands in such a way only left when they have retired, a few have the courage to leave permanently much earlier.”
Statistically, most people migrate around the age of 20. The rule of thumb is that more than half or about 2/3 of the migrants return later. The rule applies to people born outside the Netherlands who come to the Netherlands as well as people born in the Netherlands who leave. We don't know in detail how, what, why, because we as the Netherlands don't keep track of anything at the gate "outside". You can partly look for explanations in young people who temporarily emigrate, so for study or work (ie expas and not real emigrants, while the Netherlands considers an emigrant if you leave for more than 8 months). And unfortunately not at all about migration to Thailand, which, like some other countries (Spain, etc.) is known as a popular destination for the old age among them.
See:
- http://www.flipvandyke.nl/2013/02/loopt-nederland-leeg-record-emigratie/
- http://www.flipvandyke.nl/2012/08/hoe-oud-zijn-migranten-tevens-de-nieuwste-migratiecijfers/
I would like to see such figures in detail to map the how, what, why, extent, duration, retrospective, etc. and try to understand migration in all its aspects: immigration, emigration, re-migration etc.
Finally, there is also the question of who you consider an “emigrant”. If, for example, every country were to adhere to the Dutch definition (staying outside the Netherlands for more than 8 months = emigration. Someone who is going to live & study in Germany for a year is therefore already an emigrant). Seen from the Netherlands, the Dutchman would never be an emigrant, and the Thai partner would also not be an emigrant from Thailand, while the Netherlands sees people who stay in the Netherlands for longer than 3 months as immigrants. The Thai partner is therefore an immigrant according to the Dutch view, but not an emigrant from Thailand. The Dutchman would then again be an immigrant in Thailand, but seen from the Netherlands not an emigrant. Even if you were to draw 1 international line and make it the same for emigration and immigration (for example, think of “leaving abroad for more than six months is emigration , staying longer than half a year is immigration”) so such a couple would never be an immigrant/emigrant couple. Should they both consider themselves “long-term vacationers”?
Statistically and in terms of definitions you will undoubtedly be right, but if we relate to Thailand and that is what this blog is all about, then it is also unmistakable that when one has fallen in love with a Thai beauty, many have become infected with the so-called 'Thailand virus' .
That virus in which almost everything that has anything to do with the Netherlands is maligned, on the other hand, almost everything that is idealized about Thailand.
It may also be clear that the vast majority of Thailand enthusiasts are well past the age of 20, in fact they have already met Abraham, and they themselves are one of them.
I also realize very well that it is not easy to pick things up by leaving early, I certainly do not want to moralize, but let's not grumble and complain, it could be many times worse if our cradle had been somewhere else.
Dear Rob V, as far as this forum is concerned, it's about the feelings of regret or contentment or homesickness about TH. Not because of what constitutes the common denominator regarding emigration from NL. That, as usual with you, immediately makes the matter dusty and uninteresting again. It is about how 'people' experience their new country of residence: Gringo mentions a large number of items for discussion. It would be nice if you could show how you view those items from your 'Hague armchair', and if you can't, just lean against the opinions and views of the pensionadas. Nothing wrong with that!
@Sir Charles: "It may also be clear that the vast majority of Thailand enthusiasts are well past the age of 20, in fact they have already met Abraham, and they are one of them."
So unfortunately we don't have exact figures on that. It's generally accepted, but I can't figure out how exactly it works. I can't get any further than a message from CBS:
“In 2009, one in five native emigrants was 50 years or older. The more than 5 thousand older emigrants mainly left for southern European countries such as France and Spain. The emigrants to Portugal and Thailand were also largely over 50. However, these were small numbers. " source: http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/bevolking/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2010/2010-3080-wm.htm
And: “As in 2011, on balance approximately 1,5 thousand indigenous people left for Belgium or Germany, and another 1,5 thousand to the traditional emigration countries . Although the migration balance with the southern countries of Europe is virtually nil, as in previous years, relatively many pension migrants left for these countries. France and Thailand were also popular with this group.”
Source: http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/bevolking/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2013/2013-007-pb.htm
So the question is how is the distribution of emigrants to Thailand? What background do they have (native, Thai, other)? What age? Which migration goal? How long do they emigrate (what is the migration balance for natives, Thai, other)?
I can only find two tables, but they don't provide the clarity I'm looking for:
- Migration; country of origin
- Immigration and emigration by country of birth, age and gender
@Soi: Haha, dusty and uninteresting? Provided they are presented legibly in, for example, a few graphs or bar charts, the figures seem to me to be enlightening and capable of putting things in a better perspective. If you know how many elderly people emigrate to Thailand and how long they stay there, you can compare that with the feelings of homesickness and contentment. How many people (the elderly) regret their emigration and return to the Netherlands? How many Thai return to Thailand? How many Thai people eventually return to the Netherlands after first having re-migrated to Thailand?
Do the explanations given in surveys match what the migration figures suggest? Is the research an accurate reflection of the migrants? If, for example, almost only the elderly participate in the survey, while this “only” large majority concerns elderly people, then that is an important nuance.
I myself am also planning to emigrate there with my Thai, but that will take another ten years and who knows how things will be then. The main reasons would include the climate, lower costs (if you like to eat at stalls, etc.), freedom. It is not paradise, neither is the Netherlands. Actually, the Netherlands is also a beautiful country, just a bit too wet and cold and sometimes with too many rules. Thailand is sometimes too hot and has too few rules (or poor compliance). But who knows, we may leave sooner or to a third country. I think we would also have a great time in Spain.
Have not studied exact sciences, dear Rob, but based on my own observations gained over the years, nevertheless, I stick to the assumption that the majority of Thailand enthusiasts have passed the 50 years, and by them I mean those who regularly visit Thailand / on vacation, so not the emigrant, one every year 3 to 4 weeks or for my part every 2 years, the other 2 to 3 times a year, there are various degrees and all kinds of reasons for that.
It is also absolutely my intention not to confirm the prejudice that the Thailand lover is a 'dirty old man', I have supposedly 5 crosses behind my name and say it yourself statistics do not say everything, someone of 49 years old has formally haven't shaken hands with Abraham yet, but for the sake of convenience he can be counted as a 50-year-old.
To stick to the title of this topic that few Dutch people abroad have regrets.
As far as that age is concerned, that also applies with certainty to those who have settled there, the emigrant living in a suburb of Pattaya, in a village in Isan, in one of the provincial towns or anywhere else in Thailand, they are almost all pensioners except for that single English teacher or that diving instructor.
Thank you Sir Charles, I can agree with that. Although I remain curious about both the statistics (are they 60-70-80% elderly? Do they live in TH almost all year round or is it more 6 months on and off? Etc.). Also such a study as Gringo brings to the attention here, but with more details about Thailand specifically.
At first I thought: nice idea for a poll, but that will be very difficult. You should be able to provide multiple choices to questions such as “what do you like most/least about Thailand/the Netherlands?” and is not linked to length of stay or age. So a survey web page would be needed for that.
I admit, I may be asking too many questions and comments. In that respect, I'm a bitch and I've heard almost nothing but nonsense about migration-related items in the media, which only makes me ask more questions.
So far my reactions, chok dee! 🙂 I enjoy both countries,
Thailand was not my first choice to live. It was my second. But when I was allowed to stop working at an early age (which meant less income) one thing was certain: I will not stay in the Netherlands one day longer. Wherever it would go. Away from the Netherlands.
And what did the Netherlands bring me when I lived there? Have I had a lot of social benefits? Forget it. NOTHING.
I worked at Lufthansa. I was a flight attendant and flew to many places in the world. My salary was credited to my account in Germany. I paid taxes in Germany. I bought a house in the Netherlands. Do you know what I could (despite the EC) tax in the Netherlands? NOTHING.
Every year I had to fill in my tax forms for the Dutch and German states. In the Netherlands you then have that arrangement to prevent the payment of double taxation. Every year in the past 20 years I had to call and write again, because - despite filling it in CORRECTLY - I received a tax assessment of a few thousand Euros.
When I wanted to put my children in a day care center, I had to pay the highest contribution.
A neighbor of mine who lived in a rented house and who had not worked for years, had enough money to have a big motorcycle and a car and his daughter could take riding lessons. My paycheck was gone at the end of the month. Because in the social state of the Netherlands he could deduct anything, receive allowances, subsidies here and there. While I was away from my family for days, on a salary that was double or more of his income, I could barely fight the expenses.
And when I stopped working, I had the prospect that my German income would be taxed even more in the Netherlands. My pension later too.
My marriage had been broken for years, my children, who suffered a lot from that broken marriage, have left: one to her native Brazil, the other stayed in the Netherlands and did the only right thing: she knew how to use the Dutch social system - where I was too stupid for.
And I met my current girlfriend in Hua Hin on my vacation, a year before I stopped working.
Now I live here with her. I have nothing to do with the Netherlands, except for the concern that I still have to pay for my house. This, my parents and Thailandblog, is the only thing that binds me
with the Netherlands (sorry if I don't mention the few friends).
So what keeps me in a country like the Netherlands, which has not “given” me anything, but really nothing?
The only thing that is free in the Netherlands is the sun, and this is rarely the case. Everywhere they are after you to extort your money. Everywhere you have to do things that used to be done for you and for which you paid. It is too crazy for words that in the Netherlands you have to spend hours on tax papers (in Germany too) to make corrections that should not have been made in the first place. And you will be fined if you don't. That you get huge fines for driving a little wrong. You need a permit for anything and everything. That you are mothered and can hardly decide anything for yourself.
That you are so full of advertising that you feel obliged to buy a new phone every year or every few months, or a new car. That you even need a permit to dig a hole in your own garden or to plant a tree.
The interference and regulations in the Netherlands are ridiculous. But maybe necessary because of the large number of people who have to live together in one small place?
Where I live I have few neighbors. Around us many beautiful fields, animals that can still run around. While I'm writing, a gecko is sitting on my monitor, checking the computer's cursor all the time. You just had to see, his head moves back and forth every time the cursor passes him. Isn't that fantastic already? I don't have a lot of pressure on me here in Thailand. As long as I can put my well-earned money from Germany into my account and live with it. I hardly have any expenses and I feel like the happiest man in the world. People are nice here, people smile. No one tries to be better than me and tell me how things should be done, because I also stay away from other foreigners as much as possible. The food is fantastically delicious here. And when you don't want to cook, you don't have to spend large sums of money to have a meal elsewhere.
I don't have a car, but a motorcycle with a sidecar, which would most likely be banned in the Netherlands. With that we will do our “big” purchases. And when I want to buy something from Big Kiang in Hua Hin, they bring it home faster than I can get home myself. Or when I need sand for the construction of my swimming pond… order it and it will be at my house an hour later. In the Netherlands? Yes, next Tuesday the driver will be heading our way. Or I just want to stay home all day. And a cubic meter of sand? No, that's too little. That will cost 50 Euro extra call-out costs.
And so I can go on and on. Actually I don't want to stop, because I'm sitting, writing, having a great time with that Gecko, who is waiting for the cursor all the time. He's already snapped at it a few times.... but that's not going so well....
Have a nice weekend everyone….
Bye Jack
I read your story. One thing is clear… your situation is not very representative. For example, you earned your income in Germany and paid your tax to Germany. That in itself does not matter to me. But then you should not expect that you can put yourself on a par with a Dutch person who lives and works in the Netherlands and who pays tax there. Then you are also not eligible for schemes such as subsidies (which you are writing about). You should have known all this in advance. But I expect that you received a good salary and from that expectation I also assume that you were able to pay for it all.
Greetings Jan
Dear Jan,
Of course I was not representative of the vast majority of the Dutch population. But you don't know how many Dutch people work abroad.
Shouldn't I be equal? So why do I have to pay Germany taxes, but have nowhere to put the interest on my home's mortgage? I didn't want double benefits, but the same benefits that someone else also has. What then did the EC exist for?
I had to pay import duties in Germany when buying things abroad while living in the Netherlands. Then they had to let me do this in the Netherlands. Then suddenly it was a united Europe and it was possible. But when it came to the fact that I had an advantage, then it was my own fault, I should work in the Netherlands.
And if I continued to live in the Netherlands, I would have to pay tax on my income (not now, but later after my real retirement), while I had already done this in Germany. What is left of that united Europe?
I didn't need a subsidy, but I thought it was ridiculous that I had to pay for others in that social system, while I never had any benefit myself.
I didn't GET a good salary, but I EARNED. Before that I WORKED. Nobody gave me anything as a present. And I lived in the Netherlands!
The funny thing is also with the accrual of your pension. It says you must have lived or worked in the Netherlands for so many years. Well I have lived in the Netherlands for the past 23 years. Still I get nothing. Maybe my pronunciation has become a bit German over the last few years, but my Dutch is very good. If there is the word “or” in a sentence, it means that there is a choice. Yet this sentence “means” you must have lived AND worked there. So I didn't build anything. Not that I expected anything.
Anyway. You already know from history that governments are, in fact, made up of legalized criminals. And a “social” system is maintained, where the richer you are, the more is taken from you. This is also one of the reasons why I am glad to be out of that country. For example, if you earn 1000 Euro, 5% will be deducted from your salary, but if you earn 1000.000, 50% will be deducted. Well, according to my stupid calculations, 5% of 1000 Euro is 50 Euro. And if you also deduct 1000000% from someone who earns 5, you will receive 5000 Euro. Why does that person have to pay 250.000? It may be better for the state, but for the individual it is a punishment to start earning well. And to qualify for that 50% you don't even have to earn that much.
I know, they are simple examples. I am also aware that I see it all simply. But then again, that is life in the Netherlands. It's a damn complicated life, where you get caught if you have better earnings, where you're lived, where you're forced to provide services that the government used to do for you…. etc… I have written that before…
I am happy that I have an overview of my expenses and resources in Thailand. The pressure on the kettle has been lifted from me for now. Whether that system is better is left open. But at least I don't have to work for people who are too lazy. That depends on you here. Whether you take care of your girlfriend's lazy cousin is up to you. No government does that. And when you wish your in-laws a better night in life, it also depends on your own resources. They are also not pushed into a retirement home and can – despite poverty – often lead a more dignified existence than in the Netherlands….
Dear Sjaak, maybe a plaster on the wound: if you have lived in NL for 23 years you will receive 23 x 2% AOW. We all paid for it, you also when you lived in NL, so you still get something.
You say that your salary previously came into the bank in Germany, and that you paid tax in DE. In your considerations, keep in mind that you then accrued pension in DE, if Lufthansa had an arrangement for this, and that you could have deducted the mortgage in DE if you had also bought a house in DE. How can you now stipulate a deduction of tax money in NL that you do not pay to NL? Surely you have not accrued any tax pot in NL from which that deduction should have been made?
Well, who cares now. You're comfortable in TH, having a good time, keep it that way, write a story when your pool is ready, and enjoy what you have now and TH offers you!
The description of the sample of expats (age, having children, having a job) suggests that these are mainly expats who work in their new country. In general, this concerns highly educated managers who have been seconded by their Dutch company and seconded to that new country. Many of them are only there temporarily and have no intention or idea of staying in that country forever. And what is perhaps more important: these managers enjoy very good employment conditions and have nothing to complain about financially. (Dutch social security, salary in Euro, school, house, car, driver and maid paid by the employer).
In general, there are three types of factors why people move to another country:
factors that have to do with the expat himself, such as work, age, education, but also attitude and motivation and preferences (for some Thailand is nice and warm, for others too hot)
b. factors related to the country one is going to: climate, cost of living, political stability, infrastructure, social services, quality of health care, beautiful women, ease of visa, ability to work;
c. factors related to the person's situation: a person does not think about immigrating to Thailand until he finds the love of his life there.
Some factors can be influenced by governments and can therefore also influence the number of expats. Addressing the factors that expats regret can mean they are more productive at work and stay longer.
Moderator: please don't chat.