Dutch parliament elections 2012 in Thailand
If you are reading this, the results of the elections in the Netherlands are almost certainly known, with the VVD and PvdA as big winners. If you see the detailed results of the provinces today or tomorrow, for example, then that trend will most likely be seen across the board.
As a Dutchman Thailand I was of course curious how that would be with the Dutch here, who had registered for the elections. I visited the Dutch Embassy in Bangkok to see how the elections in Thailand were going. A real polling station was set up in the embassy building, where a committee of 3 Dutch people (no embassy staff) steered the voting of the Dutch in the right direction.
There were 332 valid votes cast in Thailand this year (287 in 2010), which are detailed below. I have added the distribution of seats in the House of Representatives from 2010 and (probably) 2012 and also added the distribution of votes in Thailand from 2010.
| 2nd room | 2nd room | Thailand | Thailand | |
|
2010 |
2012 |
2010 |
2012 |
|
| seats | seats | votes |
votes |
|
| VVD |
31 |
41 |
73 |
98 |
| PvdA |
30 |
39 |
46 |
42 |
| SP |
15 |
15 |
14 |
32 |
| PVV |
24 |
15 |
55 |
50 |
| CDA |
21 |
13 |
8 |
12 |
| D66 |
10 |
12 |
37 |
54 |
| Chr Union |
5 |
5 |
13 |
15 |
| Gr.Left |
10 |
3 |
36 |
13 |
| PvdD |
2 |
2 |
1 |
4 |
| SGP |
2 |
3 |
4 |
2 |
| 50plus |
2 |
|||
| TPF |
5 |
|||
| EN Local |
2 |
|||
| Libdem |
1 |
|||
| Anti Europe |
1 |
|||
| SOPN |
1 |
|||
|
150 |
150 |
287 |
332 |
|
You may now draw all kinds of conclusions from it, but one thing is clear. The result of the vote in Thailand cannot possibly be compared to that in the Netherlands. I will soon go into more detail about those figures that may surprise some and confirm what they already thought of those expats for others.
@Gringo - interesting, thanks for the info. By the way, you could have expressed it for each column in % of the total, which makes it easier for the readers to compare.
But the story below will certainly appeal to you, based on tax revenue data from CBS (http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/inkomen-bestedingen/publicaties/artikelen/archief/2010/2010-3123-wm.htm)
The 10 friends and their favorite pub “Pattaya”
Ten friends go together every day to their favorite pub “Pattaya” to drink a few beers. The bill is 1000 baht every day. Normally everyone would have to pay 100 baht, but the friends have different incomes and decide to pay the bill according to the distribution key of Dutch taxes. That gives the following distribution:
The first two (the poorest) pay nothing.
The 3rd pays 10 baht
The 4rd pays 20 baht
The 5rd pays 30 baht
The 6rd pays 40 baht
The 7rd pays 50 baht
The 8th pays 100 baht
The 9rd pays 160 baht
The 10rd pays 560 baht
Although the richest pays more than the other nine put together, everyone is satisfied with the solution and they meet day in and day out in the favorite pub. Until one day the manager decides to give the group a discount. “Because you have been good customers for years and come here every day, I will give you a 200 baht discount per day from today. So I will only calculate 800 baht per day for the drunk beers.
On the advice of the pub owner, the friends decide to pass on the 20% discount on the amounts that each pays. That evening the men settle as follows:
The first two still pay nothing
The 3rd pays 8 baht instead of 10 baht
The 4rd pays 16 baht instead of 20 baht
The 5rd pays 24 baht instead of 30 baht
The 6rd pays 40 baht instead of 50 baht
The 7rd pays 56 baht instead of 70 baht
The 8th pays 80 baht instead of 100 baht
The 9rd pays 128 baht instead of 160 baht
The 10rd pays 448 baht instead of 560 baht
It seems like a solution that everyone should be happy with: the two poorest friends still drink for free and everyone has a cheaper night out. Who could complain?
Once outside in Walking Street, the ladies make little impression as they usually do, instead everyone starts calculating. “I only got 2 baht off the discount!” shouts the 3rd friend. The 4th says: "I also only get 4 baht of the 200 baht discount, while the 10th gets 112 baht!". “That's true,” says the 5th, “why should he get 112 baht, while I only get 6 baht? The richest gets the largest share of the discount!”. “Wait a minute,” the first two yell. “We two got nothing at all. This system exploits the poor!” The nine men surround the 10th, turn on the Thai mafia, intimidate him and call him anti-social. The next evening the 10th man is not present - he thinks he can spend his money better than on these negative whiners and has therefore decided to try his luck in Hua Hin. The nine others take a seat in “Pattaya” and drink their beer as usual. Everything goes well until payment is due. They then discover something interesting: they don't have enough money to pay, not even to pay half the bill!
That's how it is in real life too. Left-wing parties complain bitterly that the richest benefit most from tax-reducing schemes such as the mortgage interest deduction. Tax them more, accuse them of being rich, and they will not show themselves again. We must prevent the 10% richest people in Pattaya from drinking their beer in other cities.
(This story is based on an originally Belgian text, which has been posted a lot on Facebook. The original author is unknown)
Dear Kees, Is your calculation incorrect or is that ( Belgian ) bartender so stupid?
Damn you're right. Perhaps something went wrong with the translation to baht, my apologies for that. However, the thrust of the story remains unchanged.
@Kees, it's a nice metaphor, but at the same time it gives an oversimplistic picture of the tax system in NL because the details of the national tax system are not incorporated, such as the many deductions.
The Netherlands is indeed a fairly egalitarian country and I think that is a good thing. But that does not alter the fact that in the Netherlands you can still become a millionaire very quickly with a good idea and hard work. You just have to hire a good accountant when the money comes in. That's it again 😉
@Cor - correct. Deductions for high incomes and subsidies for low incomes are not included in the story.
I am missing something in the list of votes cast. I cast my vote for the 50+ party and sent the ballot paper to the embassy in plenty of time. But according to the list above, not a single vote would have been cast for the 50+ party.
Mail not arrived?
I don't know how, there are several possibilities.
Can only advise sending an email to the Embassy to have it sorted out.
The problem is, I think, solved, because today I received the following E-mail from the Dutch Embassy:
Unfortunately I have to inform you with regret that I made a typing error yesterday when copying the results in this email. I apparently overlooked / typed over list 11, so that an incorrect number was passed on for NL local, LP, DKP, 50+ and Libdem
1 VVD 98
2PVDA 42
3 PVV 50
4 CDA 12
5 SP 32
6 D66 54
7 GroenLinks 13
8 Christian Union 15
9 SGP 2
10 Party for the Animals 4
11 Pirate Party 2
12 Party for People and Spirit 0
13 NL local 0
14 LP 2
15DPK 1
16 50+ 5
17 Libdem 0
18 Anti Europe 1
19 SOPN 1
20 PvdT 0
My apologies for this mistake.
Then I wonder whether these figures were passed on to The Hague in this way?
In accordance with the name of the party, it does not seem entirely inconceivable to me that several votes were cast for that party, since many who reside in Thailand are (well) over the age of 50. 😉
Kees,
Nice story, only 9 and 10 will never agree to such a distribution key.
They want to pay 100 B just like the others and take the 20 B discount like the rest.
As a result, numbers 1 to 7 pay as much as 8 to 10.
No. 8 to 10 will stay in Pattaya, but 1 to 7 will probably leave because they are too expensive and will have to find cheaper alternatives or live more economically.
The result is that there are 3 left who now get their beer at 80 B instead of 100 B.
And the bar owner? He now receives 240 B instead of 800 B, but he does have 3 rich customers in his business...
Ronny, the story is a metaphor for the tax situation in NL (and Belgium). The tax scales are determined by the government, so apart from voting, you as a citizen have nothing to say about it. In real life, it is therefore not the case that everyone pays the same amount, as this example wants to show.
Maarten,
I know that too and with my story I simply want to indicate that proportionately the lowest scales pay the most. It is not what you pay that is important, but what you keep. And whoever determines the tax scales will probably belong to the numbers 9 and 10. Usually it is that group that can benefit from the tax-reducing measures, which means that their final tax scale is on that of No. 1 to 7 brings. Only they will get a lot more out of it.
Ronny, people who produce more value also make more money. Isn't it completely logical that the lowest scales have the least purchasing power and that people with a higher income have a lot more? People who disagree should try it in Cuba. I think they'll be back soon.
If I understand correctly, Kees' story tries to show that it makes perfect sense that you can only benefit from a tax refund if you pay tax first and that you get more back if you have paid more. I don't think there's any in-between.
Maarten
Exactly what you say, but in the example it is not about earning but about consumption or expenditure, which may explain the misunderstanding.
That is what I mean when I write that such a publishing arrangement (fortunately) does not exist.
In reality, when spending, everyone will pay the same.
Suppose they all buy 10 of the same cars together. Do you think 9 and 10 will agree to make up the difference from 1 to 7 because they earn more?
What they earn more they want to spend on themselves and rightly so.
But now turn the example around and instead of consuming, those people will earn that amount according to that distribution key (possibly add some zeros after it).
Suppose they all get a 20% tax reduction.
In that sense, it is logical that a larger earner will receive proportionally more in return and someone who has earned nothing cannot receive a reduction.
But suppose they say - since life has become more expensive, everyone gets a 20% increase. Is it correct that this is done in % or would it be more correct to award everyone the same amount.
After all, a VB bread costs the same for everyone.
Since it actually happens in %, that is what I mean when I say that the lowest scales have the least left over.
But I myself will stop because otherwise it will be chatting and it will actually be about your elections
@Ronny – such an unequal spending scheme does exist and is better known under the name 'Dutch tax'. You completely missed the metaphor, even after Maarten's explanation.
I think Ronny has understood, but just has a different view on the matter. Or vice versa: that someone disagrees with you does not automatically mean that he has not understood. By the way, I think your metaphor not only refers to the Dutch tax system, but to just about every tax system in every civilized country…
Of course you have something to say about it, because you can simply move to another country if you don't like it or apply for another nationality. If you earn a higher income, you partly owe this to the infrastructure of a country, in the sense of available facilities, such as education. Some people benefit proportionately more from this than others. I think I have received ten years more (subsidized) education than an average construction worker. That is why it seems logical to me that some people pay proportionally/progressively more tax. As far as deductions are concerned: it is entirely correct that higher incomes get more back. But some deductions hit like a pair of pliers on a pig. The mortgage interest deduction is backwards - no country in Europe has that, apart from Finland I believe. And our total mortgage debt has grown from 100 billion euros in 2000 to 600 billion euros in 2012. In any case, it is the most anti-liberal economic stimulus imaginable, assuming that liberals promote the free market. I can understand the fact that you subsidize house sales for a shorter period of time through mortgage interest deductions under the heading of "incentive". The fact that you don't abolish it over time is simply a Bolshevik thing. If the stock market collapses, will we also make buying shares on the stock exchange deductible?
Great article, but I hope that in the further explanation attention will also be paid to voters other than just the expats. Many other groups of Dutch people live in Thailand.
To my surprise I see 50 votes for the PVV and then complain that you have to do so much for an MVV or visa to the Netherlands.
Incomprehensible to me.
@ Ice, Incomprehensible to me that you do not respect democracy! Fortunately, everyone in our country is free to vote for a party that they think is best for them.
Math.
The PVV is not a party but a movement.
Every political party in the Netherlands has members. No one can become a member of the movement….pvv
The PVV only has 1 member and that is blond geert. Geert is the only ruler and tolerates none
participation.
Dear Jogchum, apparently it is difficult to understand. I do not respond to the PVV and did not vote for the PVV. I say that it is good that people can vote for whoever they want. This is even about visas, the world turned upside down. As if Geert Wilders is talking about whether my Thai girlfriend is welcome or not... People apparently forget that Thailand is a bit stricter, but people forget that for a moment. To work? Not allowed. Committed a crime, stamped in your passport and one-way ticket home. When Geert Wilders says that Moroccan criminals should leave the country after a crime, people are sour, what does Thailand do when a farang commits a crime? That's right, get out of the country and never back in!
You have a good point there Ice! Although the Thais fortunately have the 'advantage' that they do not adhere to that particular religion that Wilders is so opposed to, many of his supporters, the so-called 'Henks and Ingrids', have a tendency in their populist ignorance to talk all about those of foreign origin. one comb to shave. 'After all, it is those foreigners who steal our jobs or who do not want to work just to come here to benefit from our social system and prosperity, but do not want to adapt to our norms and values.'
Does not mean to deny that there are also some things wrong in the Netherlands and the EU, however, it does mean that the conditions for visas have become stricter in recent years, where the good have to suffer from the bad under the guise of political correctness.
Also unfortunately for those who want to bring his Thai sweetheart to the Netherlands temporarily or permanently.
Dear Math, I'm very democratic, unfortunately Wilders is not, but apparently I don't see that. If you call this party democratic under the heading of respect, then I think that respect is hard to find for you. Didn't listen carefully to the big white boss?
I don't think you understand my position. I'm not talking about Wilders, Rutte, Roemer or anyone else. I'm just saying that fortunately everyone is free to vote for whoever they want. One should respect that and not whether someone is blonde.
We close the discussion. We never agree on politics and that is not the intention.