Corruption in Thailand
Although Thailand has a legal framework and set of institutions to deal effectively with corruption, Thais continue to suffer endemic from corruption.
In my perception, corruption is based on two (im)moral arguments:
“As long as I have enough to eat, why bother when someone else dies of hunger”
“You live in poverty so that I can live in wealth”
The concept of corruption must be interpreted very broadly, so it should not only be related to money.
Bribery and conflicts of interest are prevalent in Thailand's private and public sectors from top to bottom. It is ubiquitous and pretty much accepted as normal in Thai culture. The facilitating interactions between business and government are widespread (see the rice-mortgage system as an example) and the associated money flows (from government to business) are the source of corruption. If you analyze all the major realized projects (Suvarnabhumi, MRT, BTS etc.) then all of them were plagued by massive corruption and the malodorous smell of power entanglement still hangs around them. Even with future projects such as the HSL and hydroelectric power station(s), whose economic viability is highly questionable, it seems that the Thai establishment needs these types of projects to perpetuate the depravity of self-enrichment.
The current regime (Prayuth) has announced that anti-corruption laws are being vigorously enforced in its effort to stamp out corruption. To successfully combat corruption, Thailand must first tackle its (ineffective) government apparatus. There are plenty of corrupt officials in there. How do you want to fight corrupt officials by replacing them with officials who are just as corrupt. Empty words from Prayuth, who uses this kind of rhetoric to mask the corruption in her top.
Added to this is the cowardly mentality of many Thais. Inspired by centuries of indoctrination, patronizing and lack of criticism, they have come to think that corruption is morally justified. They make us believe that the whole world is corrupt and that they (the Thai) are no exception. In their perception, they accept corruption as aspects of modern life. That's part of it. It is evident that the corrupt Thai really believes that she is honest and sincere. If they don't participate in that, they are the fools.
Corruption is Thailand's true enemy. It is now up to the Thai youth to root out corruption. It is up to the education system to prepare the Thai youth for this by changing curricula in such a way that the youth are trained to be critical. If she succeeds, Thailand stands for a great economic future. It can then play a leading role in the region.
Or that will happen? My doubt is great. Although the Thai have become accustomed to international brands, fast food, Western music and movies, you might think that the formation of a more Western-oriented society will gain ground. Unfortunately. I wish it was true. The Thai actually lives back 150 years and that will not change much for the time being. The hierarchical (read submissive) culture, traditional family ties, place of the individual in society and her upbringing will prevent this.
Ronald van Veen is 70 years old with years of experience in doing business in Asia, including Thailand. Gained experience with corruption in this capacity.
I don't know…but…eehhhh…
I think corruption is ingrained in the culture. If you consult the google oracle, you will find that a change in a culture, if you do everything right, takes between 4 and 8 years (opinions differ, but we keep it at 4). I think Prayuth is doing great, the country is at rest. Allen will get rid of corruption will take longer than he is in power…I think. But yes..I've often been surprised about this...who hasn't? 🙂
The difference between rich and poor is too great. You'll never get the corruption out that way And the elite will never give up their position. They can't do without a bribe. And if this prime minister first starts with himself because all governments are still asking 50.000 to 50000 to get a job with the government. And one doesn't wonder how he and the generals get their money. So he shouts loudly from the tower, with the wrong text
Well written Ronald, but be careful. If Prayut lives at least another 100 years, he will probably achieve a small success.
In my opinion, the first two arguments on which corruption is based have more to do with indifference than with corruption. Corruption, in my opinion, is acting contrary to the law or regulations in order to acquire a better position for yourself or your loved ones in any form whatsoever. You can be rich and indifferent to the poverty of another, yet act within the law and regulations
Moderator: it is about Thailand not about the Netherlands.
I wonder why anyone would want a "western-oriented society" to be established in Asia? as it has been going on for a few decades in “the west” one should certainly not take an example from that, and as if there is no corruption in the west anymore, don't make me laugh! more hidden but certainly not "much" less than in Thailand.
people who are too disturbed by that should stay in their blissful west.
Best regards.
Although I can agree with a number of the writer's statements, he also gives the impression that traditional family ties in Thailand prevent a more Western-oriented society in Thailand. Why pursue a Western society if necessary, as if that were so ideal. And it is precisely those traditional family ties that I see as a blessing compared to the egocentric way in which more and more people seem to live in the West.
In my opinion, the biggest cause of accepting corruption (personally benefiting financially from a “power” situation given by a legal position) is the Thai hierarchy.
The "classic" Thai mindset is that if someone has money or a high position or otherwise "lucky" in society, it is because he/she has been a very good (morally) person in his/her previous life. to live. Giving money to such a higher-ranking person also makes the giver a step “higher” in the status (face) position of the Thai (compare: the boyfriend who prides himself on being able to pay such a high dowry to the parents of his future wife).
In corruption, the giver not only gets the material benefit of the permission, permit, deal, job, or whatever, but also accumulates better karma for his next life. (Just like donating to the temple or doing some other “good” cause.)
So, in my opinion, it goes much, much deeper than "that's just how we've been doing it for a long time", or: "everyone (in the world) does that" and it is therefore very different from the corruption in the Western world where it is only about the money.
Indeed, the only way to change this is through education, but that also means that all the elements that have crept into Buddhism over time and are really not intended by Buddha to be that way, and that will be the most difficult thing because these often unnamed beliefs are very deep in the psyche of the Thai and so far I do not see any “role models” who make this aspect aware in Thai society. Rather the opposite.
And indeed the “adoption of the Western cultural behavior of Mc Donalds, KFC, Coca Cola, expensive brands and whatnot, is a veneer that hides the underlying almost genetic code of behavior of the Thai.
To what extent it is possible to transform the hierarchical way of thinking of the Thai into a more equal (more democratic) way of thinking without weakening the traditional family ties (also valued by me as a great asset), is the question for me. they could well be caused by the same underlying psyche mentioned by me above.
We think it's crazy that a Thai pays 100 Baht to get priority in the amphoe.
They laugh at the fact that Westerners receive 1000 euros a month from the government for the rest of their lives without doing anything for it. This system is then maintained by political parties who profit from it at the expense of the taxpayer.
Let's stick to cultural differences and be a little more careful in criticizing another culture on the basis that we are superior to the other.
Within a few decades we will be able to test each other's prosperity again (if that is the norm), and see where the other stands.
Having read the reactions, I have come to the conclusion that many Dutch 'farang' wholeheartedly support, applaud and view corruption in Thailand as insurmountable.
It will therefore take many a century before the native - and that is why it is important in this case - is ready for change in this area.
Anyway, Prayuth, worshiped by the farang, will benefit; this at the expense of the less savvy Thai (and farang).
No Hendrik,
Corruption is not condoned.
But you can safely say that the Thai are seriously stigmatized here by some 'superior' Westerners, while there is still so much work to be done in their own country.
And it is naive to think that there is no corruption in the Netherlands or Belgium. Here they are only more hypocritical, and they do it more covertly, while a Thai openly admits it because hardly anyone is bothered by it. For these reasons you can put this whole story into perspective.
It must be me, but I must conclude that you are still excusing Thai corruption here.
I would no longer call your equating the level of corruption in the Netherlands and Belgium with that of Thailand, but the complete distortion of the truth.
http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm
Ronald van Veen is of the same generation and age as the undersigned. But contrary to his perception, mine has continued to develop and I hope this will continue for a long time to come.
In my life, (emphasis), my last life I have learned and allowed myself to change my mind. I have appropriated that freedom for myself.
The corruption that this topic is about has a function in life. In one culture more (visible) than in the other culture. It is utopian to assume that corruption can be eradicated.
Of course I looked at the corruption with the same negativity as the writer of the piece, but gradually I learned that my Dutch upbringing and background is not at all as blissful as what I had always been told. At least not where I could distil "the right" from.
In Thailand I learned that it is also a form of social behavior norm, which is viewed negatively in the Netherlands. But in Thai culture it does have a not insignificant function.
Take as a small example the old woman who helps you park when you go to the market. In many small villages it is often not an official function. After your visit to the market, you give her 10 or 20 baht, for the effort taken and help with getting in and out of parking. Can this now be considered corruption? After all, it is not an official position for Dutch understanding. (and you don't have to pay)
Another example: In the 15 years that I frequently stay in Thailand, I have noticed that I am treated with a certain preference in various places where I visit more often. Is this due to the 10 or 20 bath (hardly worth mentioning) that I pay as a tip or are we talking about corruption again?
Even restaurants where I visit more often drop their price at some point. (probably because they forgot, what they charged me last time) 🙂
Very consciously I am not talking about the big companies and my experiences in the Netherlands. But when I put corruption into perspective, I naturally take that into account.
After all, as Dutch people, we are crazy about sticking a sticker on something, which makes it a bit quieter in our heads.
@Simon,
Your example with those lame women in small villages is just as flawed as the further development of your perception. You don't even know the difference between a "bribe" and a "tip".
“Bribes” (another word for corruption in your perception) are given to bend justice in such a way that you benefit or can be used for other “unfair” purposes.
“Tip” is an expression of services rendered.
I think it's time you changed your perception.
Ronald van Veen
I would like readers to actually read and know what it is about. Your story is about corruption, not tipping. A heavenly difference. Tips are earned. Receiving anything for unlawful acts is corrupt.
Corruption is a developed behavior and actually has nothing to do with culture. After all, it occurs in all cultures?! Corruption is always to the detriment of the public interest to the benefit of personal interest.
Ronald,
Statements such as 'the cowardly mentality of the Thai' and 'that they still live 150 years back in time' are very heavy words. This tends to stigmatize. It is dangerous to attach a certain characteristic to a certain culture. This is what history teaches us. And I hope that the Thai will not criticize our culture in the same way from their cultural point of view. Because then we could end up very badly. It would be better if we let go of our pedantic finger and approach the problem in a more diplomatic and open way, with a reflection on our own shortcomings.
Moderator: You are chatting.
Indeed Simon,
It is not just about sticking stickers, but also about thinking in boxes, and this is not a reproach. Every person, no matter what culture he comes from, thinks in boxes. We are raised with it from a very young age.
We put everything in boxes because it makes it easier for us to name things without having to expend too much energy on our brains. All cubicles are connected with a door. If you want to discover the connection with another cubicle you have to open a door. The more doors we open, the more connections we can make and the more our view is broadened. But opening all these doors takes energy. And it is the will to open these doors that individuals (and not cultures) differ.
Corruption mainly occurs in countries that are in transition economies: the transition from a feudal, hierarchically structured economy and society to a more open system. Europe had that phase in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when there was a lot of corruption in Europe, but less now. In that transitional phase, corruption can even have advantages, but it often continues for years, even if it has become harmful, as is now the case in Thailand.
Incidentally, I believe that it has nothing to do with the Thais as such. In my opinion, foreigners and foreign companies in Thailand are on average just as corrupt as the Thais.
As the economy develops, corruption will decrease, but only if there is democracy, freedom of expression and information, and an independent judicial system, which promote transparency and accountability. A better distribution of wealth will also help. None of that will happen under the current regime.
Hi Ronald
The following is happening to me.
I am building my house and working with people from burma .
All papers of the people are in order, passport and work permit, etc
The police often come to check and so often that people get scared and work elsewhere.
And I discussed this with a Thai friend and when the police came again, he also came.
You won't believe they have wild money not to come by again because otherwise they would take everyone next time to check.
While they already knew that everything was fine .
But they said no one would want to work for me but because of the controls.
Explain that to me, everything is fine and you still have to pay the police.
My friend said I did get a discount because everything was okay.
So now I've been paying for a while until half a year ago it stopped they didn't come anymore. .
I thought hehe I'm fine with that until two months ago, they came unexpectedly and demanded the money retroactively.
I wasn't there and my sister was shocked and paid, but now we've all seen them for a while.
It's strange when I'm there I don't see them, when I'm gone they come.
And they're like rats but with power.
But keep smiling.
Gr Rob
Over the years I have traveled quite a lot of kilometers by car throughout Thailand, the one time I drove myself and then my (Thai) partner drove again. Stopped dozens of times by the police, sometimes up to 3 times a day (Khorat area). We would have driven too fast, stayed in the right lane for too long, crossed an (imaginary) white line, did not get into the right lane, made too much noise, did not use the correct color number plates, made a U-turn where prohibited would be and many more often committed imaginary offenses. Only once would the ticket be sent home, but otherwise it came down to whether I / we just wanted to dock, a few times 100 Bath, usually 200 Bath, but also 400 to 500 Bath. I paid that and with that you could suggest that I too maintain the corrupt system. The alternative is that your driver's license is confiscated, which you can then collect at a police station for a lot more money. Of course I'm not more Catholic than the Pope and I don't feel like spending a few hours on it. I don't get angry anymore, it makes no sense. And of course my comment and all other comments on this topic on this blog are pointless as well. Not a Thai who reads it or cares about it and not a Bath less in "kickbacks" will be collected.
I was stopped recently in Ha Hin for not wearing a helmet. Would get a print of 200,
he asked about my license, the latter had never happened to me before, showed him my thai certificate.
Got a big smile and was allowed to continue driving, so that's how it can be
Corruption is both a giving and receiving problem.
Because how often does it not happen that money is offered under the table when it is not necessary or even requested.
Moderator: It's about Thailand not about the Netherlands.
For me, corruption is when from a higher social position, means of power are abused for their own interests. These can be personal as well as business interests. A phenomenon that takes place in Thailand, as also in NL.
Reprehensible and pernicious. TH has her hands full with that, in both ways!
I don't share the definition of article writer. Nor that he implicitly suggests that the Thai assumes “…. two (im)moral arguments: as long as I have enough to eat, why bother when someone else dies of hunger” “You live in poverty so that I can live in wealth”
Well, that applies to all of the West to the East, as well as to all of the North to the South. Let's face it, especially the West used to and still exploits the other corners of the world for its own benefit. And let's also note that we farang belong to both the West and the North. Always had enough to eat, and lived in wealth. And still!
The article writer has previously described his personally reprehensible adventures in TH, which left him with the necessary disillusions and deceptions. These experiences are reflected in the style he uses: suggestive, reproachful, accusing, as well as in the choice of words. Not one positive attitude in the entire argument. Well, that: the Thai has a cowardly mentality, a lack of criticism, lives 150 years ago, hinders own development, you cannot expect anything from the Thai youth, the education is not good, and the Thai has a false world view. Etc.etc.etc. These are the ingredients with which the article writer posits and describes his attitude towards Thailand, but essentially behind which he masks his frustrations. And masquerade is exactly what he throws at the Thai. Well, who throws the first stone?
Hi Soi
I read your comment, it was pretty negative too.
Ronald describes it from his perception, I thought it was very well described.
And as you said only negative.
And I have 2 questions about that.
1 what the hell can you say positively about corruption.
(yes it's all a lot easier when you have money)
2 can you explain my story what I have written above, I am very curious about that.
Gr Rob
Question 1: Corruption is pernicious and reprehensible. That's how I started my response to the article writer's story. But in my response I am acting against the tone. I agree with you that it comes from his perception. That was my concern. Read my response again. Corruption is very questionable where it manifests itself within social institutions: banks, companies, government institutions. It blocks subsidy flows, development, democratization. Corruption is not acceptable in either NL or TH. But to get so many negative qualifications towards TH for that? Then there are other motives at play.
Question 2: Corruption is also subjective: a befriended Dutchman was flashed on the BKK tollway last January. He sent his Fortuner forward at a speed of 130 km/h. He was only allowed 80 km/h. At the next toll gate police check. He began negotiating a lot and bought off his ticket with a firm enclosed handshake. He still brags about it.
A Swede is building near me. He knows how to organize the most beautiful things, because his wife is friends with someone from the higher municipal civil servants.
A Malaysian, a little further away, married to a Thai, businessman, property worth several million, beautiful garden, often away from home, knows how to have his property guarded by the local Hermandad.
Should you have done that too? Would you have been better off adhering to “local regulations”? Your choice! Indignantly you say: “Everything is fine and yet you still have to pay the police.”
But you did pay! I do not read that you denounced the conduct of police officers. You can talk about that too, and not just about the evil role of the police officers. That role exists, it is there, we have known that for many years.
Corruption is the abuse by a superior of his social position for self-interest. How many are unable to reverse this principle? And to use it for self-interest? Self-interest, that's what it's all about. By all parties!
The introductory article states:
'the current regime (Prayuth) has announced that anti-corruption laws will be rigorously enforced'
Has anyone here already seen the results of this strict enforcement and can you – after almost a year of 'Prayuth' – already notice in daily life that corruption is decreasing…?
Another question: When a Thai police officer arrests you and unjustly issues a fine, can you ask his identity and complain somewhere or is there no body for that ..?
Why do most of you like to go to Thailand so much. Let me guess.
Because it is so cheap because people earn too little?
Because you can enjoy the nightlife until the early hours (because the barkeeper buys off the closing time)?
Because you like to be in beautiful and young company. (Which is actually prohibited by law and unaffordable in the west)?
Because you can have a house built by Burmese (grey/black zone) who in turn earn ten times less than the Thai?
Or because you think you can do 'good business' in a cunning way with which you can richly fill your pockets without the poor Thai being allowed to earn too much from it.
If you are so high on Western standards, how come you still go to Thailand and continue to enjoy at least some of the above examples without hesitation.
It would be a lot quieter on this blog then.
What a negative view of Thailand visitors, My main reason is the climate and the food and that it is also cheap helps with that. We can't change Thailand, the Thais have to do that themselves if they want to. We are guests and must accept Thai customs, including corruption. Try to avoid it, but that is not always possible, I have personally experienced it. If you can't handle that, you have to stay in the Netherlands.
Moderator: Please do not chat.