Reader question: Can I emigrate to Thailand for tax purposes?
Dear readers,
I want to ask you the following question.
For several years now, my wife and I have been staying in Chiang Mai for at least 2 x 3 months a year (so more than 180 days) and intend to continue to do so and possibly even expand in the future.
Through the grapevine I have often heard that there would be the possibility to emigrate for tax purposes to Thailand, which would imply that I am no longer a tax resident in the Netherlands and that I will become a tax resident in Thailand, where the 0% rate would be applied to pensioners.
Information at official bodies in the Netherlands has so far not yielded the desired result because there is little or no cooperative attitude.
My situation is as follows: married, both 68 years old, apart from AOW, I enjoy 2 pensions from my former employers ABN AMRO and Mercedes Benz. I own my own house in the Netherlands, which I want to leave as is for the time being, partly given the current situation on the Dutch housing market.
I am actually looking for people from Thailand who have made the tax step under the same circumstances and who could inform me of the conditions that must be met and who are familiar with the tax consequences as well as solutions in the field of health insurance.
Can you help me a step further?
Regards,
Ed
@Ed, to start with: tax emigration to Thailand does not exist.
There is a tax treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand to prevent double taxation of income. If you live in Thailand, you can use this under certain conditions to be regarded as a non-taxable person in the Netherlands.
The tax treaty already starts with an obstacle that is almost impossible for you and that is your own home. The treaty assumes that you live in the country where you own a house, i.e. in the Netherlands.
So you really have to emigrate, ie sell your house and hearth, have yourself deregistered from the municipality and then prove that you live permanently in Thailand.
Health insurance is another hurdle. You should inquire with your current insurer whether they have a so-called Foreign Policy. If not, the insurance will expire as soon as you leave the Netherlands and you will have to take out a new insurance policy. That is possible, but is often expensive and has exclusions of existing ailments. Not recommended for you at that age.
All in all, if you are not really planning to emigrate, forget about any tax opportunity and enjoy those beautiful long periods in Thailand in your own way.
Gringo, I've also been in the process of emigrating. Even had me deregistered in NL, because I thought it would be a piece of cake. Unfortunately. Sign me up again. But…. You can keep your house in the Netherlands. You pay all municipal, provincial and water board taxes and on top of that they see your house as a holiday home and you pay a (relatively) high percentage of the value of your house.
My biggest problem was getting enrolled in Thailand. The ones I spoke to who did manage to do it were married to a Thai, but that's why I'm not getting married. I think it's fine this way, but given the current cost with the new government, I'm waiting for any response to consider doing, you know.
Gerrie08,
You go to the local Amphur with your translated and legalized proof of deregistration from the Netherlands (note, this must be officially legalized in the Netherlands).
The Amphur will start your registration upon presentation of your visa or extension of stay.
It is possible that a birth certificate is requested, an extract from the birth register is useful because it also contains the names of your parents.
Mind you, also translated and legalized.
It is useful if you bring a local Thai who will help you and possibly sign for the registration. (preferably an official or similar), and you really don't have to be married.
You will then receive a yellow Tambien Baan, containing a Thai personal number, also your tax number.
If you get a police officer, a judicial officer, an official from the Amphur, or something like a "guarantor", you will be surprised how fast everything goes and which papers you do not need........
DO NOT fall into the trap of teamoney!
According to international agreements, the local administration must register you if you live within their jurisdiction and if you have been deregistered elsewhere.
Moreover, Thailand has concluded various treaties with the Netherlands concerning each other's nationals.
If you have a house in a company here in Thailand, for example, you go to Amphur with that booklet and your passport and of course a copy of visa, passport, house book.
Within 1 hour you are registered and you have the yellow booklet.
Incidentally, everything is also possible if you have a good rental contract and bills that you pay that are stated in your name and identical address as a rental contract.
Your personal number is also your tax number, but you must confirm this and have it registered at the tax office in the region where you live.
The registration card that you then obtain has to be translated and sent to the tax authorities, so you pay absolutely nothing in the Netherlands.
think before you leap regarding tax registration, tax is higher in thailand than in NL and the outlook for 2015 is not favorable for expats either.
Regards,
Roelof
Dear Gringo,
If you have a permanent home at your disposal in both the Netherlands and Thailand, you are deemed to be a resident of the state where the center of your vital interests lie. A house in NL does not therefore have to stand in the way of you being regarded as a (fiscal) resident of Thailand.
Regards,
Peter
Gringo, I do not agree with you, that is not a law either, house in the Netherlands is completely outside of it.
It is literally stated in the civil code; if you have been out of the Netherlands for more than 8 months, the Netherlands is no longer regarded as your country of residence. Anyone who stays here or elsewhere for a longer period of time, but who is still registered in the basic administration of a municipality, runs a very high risk.
The treaty does not stipulate double taxation, if you want to pay tax here in Thailand you must apply for a tax number, incidentally you must have a company to obtain a tax number per person in Thailand. Incidentally, they are working in Thailand to have all expats pay tax on their foreign income at the end of 2015.
Currently, the tax on income is 15%, without social insurance.
Just don't participate in that, tax in the Netherlands is very low, less than 2%, what makes it expensive are the general insurance laws and social laws, the so-called national insurance schemes, which amount to 31.35%. Incidentally, I assume low scales in tax levy , with pensioners, that percentage of national insurance is lower if not too much pension is paid out (no longer pay aow premiums) so total income aow and pension, that is important.
With an income of, for example, 24.000 gross, you then pay approximately 850 in tax/contribution
In the Netherlands, you always have to pay tax on pensions, legislation changed in 2008 or 2007. The only exemption you receive is therefore the national insurance contributions. On the other hand, you no longer have health insurance. In view of the current government plans regarding health insurance, I advise against emigrating, just staying here for a maximum of 8 months is no problem, or 2x 4 months. Good health insurance as we know it is not possible in Thailand, not even through foreign insurers such as French, English and German insurers.
I myself also had a house when I emigrated in 2007, never experienced a problem, not even higher assessments on anything, as GERRIE puts it. The house is still there and I bought 2009 additional house in 1 and just this year in October I bought another 1 house in the Netherlands, which has already been rented out, my house where I always lived has also been rented out, the other I will go myself occasionally in, stands on a recreation park.
When emigrating, always fill in what your country of residence is, that is important. (Free choice)
Another advantage with emigration, especially if you are wealthy and therefore have to pay tax via levy in box 3, if your country of residence is outside the eu with or without a treaty, you no longer have to pay a yield tax, so also not on the value of real estate.
So it is different for every emigration, which must be calculated on personal circumstances, what is beneficial and what is disadvantageous.
Regards,
Roelof from Thailand
Ed, if you want to emigrate to Thailand for tax purposes, you MUST deregister from the gba.
that immediately implies that you will also be thrown out of the health insurance fund. You can voluntarily insure yourself for medical expenses here, but you are 68 and then they will no longer accept you.
From a fiscal perspective, the Netherlands is entitled to withhold your state pension, so only a little wage tax is withheld, but your pensions are completely GROSS.
You must prove to the Dutch tax authorities that you are liable for tax in Thailand. You do this using the yellow book. and in Thailand you pay nothing above 60.
you can just keep your house in holland.
Not entirely true, it depends on where you are insured. Various health insurers have a foreign policy. For example, if you are insured with CZ, you can get CZ's foreign insurance without any problems. I took that out and then had my insurance deregistered. At the time of deregistration, I also had my own home and paid the normally applicable taxes on it. The house was rented. I didn't pay any tax on it and I wasn't allowed to deduct anything. I've never had any problems with the tax authorities about that. I have now sold the house.
Hello Roelof and Harry,
According to Roelof: “Prospects not favorable in 2015 for expats” People go here )Thail.)
levy tax on income from the Netherlands.
According to Harry: “In Thailand you pay nothing if you are over 60”
HOW SHOULD I SEE THIS NOW?????
An expat is generally over 60, so if the government starts making a fuss about those few expats who are not yet 60, it is a huge waste of time in my opinion.
But yes………….TIT
Greetings,
Louise
Day Ed,
You see, many, also conflicting reactions. It is best to inform yourself (and continue until you have an answer).
Everything you should know is already in all the contributions above, but also some things are superfluous or untrue.
Finding out yourself for your specific situation is best, then you can only blame yourself later if something isn't right.
As far as insurance is concerned: Yes, Hoogervorst did indeed screw up the pensioners who lived abroad and those who planned to do so in the future when the Health Care Act was introduced in 2006..
It is important to first determine whether what you "gain" in tax will still have some left if you take out health insurance for both of you with the same coverage as now.
That depends very much on your income and your personal health situation (due to exclusions), so it is an individual sum that no one can help you with without your insight into your personal situation.
Succes
Ton
Ed, I think I'll double check.
But if you stay more than 180 days outside the Netherlands and less than 180 in Thailand, you can avoid tax on both sides 🙂 Since Thailand has a treaty with the Netherlands, this would mean that you would have to pay tax in TH, but if you then make sure that you also If you do not stay there for the maximum number of days, you can use it.
Let them inform you, but I am sure that there is a rule because my accountant regularly points this out to me because of days in the Netherlands.
So then you don't have to emigrate, deregister etc..
But check with an accountant in your situation.
Dear Ed, I have been living in Thailand for six years now, until now I pay taxes in the Netherlands, it is a state pension (AOW, ABP that fall under Dutch taxation, Thailand has nothing to do with that, only private pension that falls under the Thai tax law, but now it comes I've been looking for a tax office here for years, and if you and Thai ask where is the tax office they don't know, so what do I do now just enjoy my old age, I'm 70 years old, only it is that you are not insured in Thailand, you can get insured, but there is a price tag attached to it, I have checked, there is a French company that insures you, the office there are two Dutch workers who with word and deed assist.the address is AA insurance Brokers
WONG CHOMISIN BUILDING=83/14 PHETKASEM ROAD,OFFICE 504 =HUA HIN PRACHUAB KHIRI KHAN 77110 THAILAND PHONE :MOBIL +66(0)810067008.
YOUR QUESTION FOR MR ANDRE WHO WORKS THERE.address [email protected] For Thailand, for the Netherlands, the email address is:[email protected].
I hope that you can get started with that information. I wish you the best.
greetings from richard kanchanaburi.
Moderator: please no off-topic discussion about insurance.
Lots of conflicting info and not all correct. A few additions:
– The Dutch tax authorities look at where 'the center of gravity' of your existence lies. With a house in the Netherlands it is indeed difficult to demonstrate this focus in Thailand, unless, for example, you have rented out your house.
– Thailand does not levy income tax on past income (e.g. Dutch pensions), but pensions acquired in the public sector, e.g., ABP pension is always taxed in the Netherlands. Pensions from the private sector, such as from ABN AMRO and Mercedes Benz, are not. If you have a decent pension income, it may be worthwhile to leave the Netherlands, but it will be a hassle.
You can demonstrate your intended center of gravity if necessary. However, the tax authorities can obtain all information from the immigration service, no problem.
Taxation as you explain is almost exactly right,
View the new legislation for this on the tax site for emigration and private pension benefits.
Legislation in 2007 or 2008 no longer exempts pensions, not even after 10 years after emigration, the so-called protective assessment. Of course, the payment of full insurance premiums is. Every new emigrant has to deal with this, old cases retain their rights if they comply with the conditions continue to be met.
Gr. Roel
I've been doing quite a bit of research on this subject lately, and as far as I can judge, BramSiam's response is the only response that's quite accurate.
I think that quite a few statements made in the responses are incorrect (e.g. from Adri Buijze below “you remain liable to pay tax in the Netherlands”).
When you have completed the correct tax papers, the tax authorities determine where the center of gravity of your economic and social life lies for you (and that is the result of weighing many factors), and you become a taxpayer there. The size of the potential tax benefit of being a Thai taxpayer depends on your personal situation.
If you are not satisfied with the decision of the tax authorities, you can file an objection and appeal. Court rulings on the subject can be found at
the website http://www.rechtspraak.nl.
Is this last trajectory what BramSiam means by hassle?
As Bramsiam describes it I think it is correct. You can read the tax treaty on it.
It can help to call in a tax consultancy firm specialized in the Netherlands to sort things out. For example, Intax in Rotterdam.
I have taken out health insurance with worldwide coverage in Hong Kong, but that becomes more difficult when you are older.
However, if you only go to Thailand for 6 months a year, the question is whether the center of gravity of your life will also be there and that is the core for the tax authorities.
You can email me and maybe I can help you on your way.
Moderator: We have removed your email address. We are not in favor of you publishing your email address here.
Hello, can I stay in Thailand for 8 months, then go to the Netherlands for a few weeks, and then back to Thailand for 8 months, etc?
You are legally allowed to stay outside the Netherlands for a maximum of 8 months. I would no longer do that as you can lose NL as a country of residence, so also health insurance, state pension accrual, etc.
However, you must check with your health insurer how long you are allowed to stay outside the Netherlands, for one it is 6 months for the other 1 year. In addition, a well-coordinated travel insurance for the duration of your stay with a supplement to your medical expenses.
There are NL people who are here for 8 months, 1 week back to NL to fulfill their duty, but this does not prove that your country of residence is NL, so you take a big risk. Everything can be seen in your passport, never forget that, even if you lose your passport, all your flight details are known to the airlines when they investigate.
Regards, Roel
just to be clear, we just want to remain Dutch residents, so also pay all taxes here.
Hi Ton, what you have for is fraudulent. Not that I'm judging this, but you're making yourself very vulnerable. I assume that Ton Kroon is your real name and then it is not wise to make such matters public. In a similar posting (04.01.2012) you even sign with your e-mail address. How stupid can you be. Government agencies are reading along, especially with all those click lines these days.
I don't see why it would be 'fraudulent'. Ton remains within the limits of the legislation (that 8-month term), remains a resident of the Netherlands and continues to pay taxes in the Netherlands. Seems completely legit to me.
Cornelis, Ton writes on 4-1-2012 that he has a younger partner and receives a partner allowance.
If you study the coalition agreement, you will see that all state pension obligations outside the EU will lapse. Furthermore, Ton's wife will not accrue any state pension if they deregister from the Netherlands. I think that is why Ton is devising all kinds of constructions to remain registered in the Netherlands. Again Ton, I'm not judging you (cast him who is without sin…) but watch what you put on public forums.
https://www.thailandblog.nl/expats-en-pensionado/uitgeschreven-uit-de-gba-en-dan/
I have been told that it is mandatory to deregister if you stay abroad for more than eight months within a year, even if a visit to the Netherlands falls in there.
Then what on earth am I doing wrong? Our house is for sale and as long as it is not sold (unfortunately it can take a long time), we want to go to our long-term rental house on Koh Samui for 8 months, etc. And since I can no longer see the forest for the trees, I me down here… But all I see are more trees 🙂
You remain liable to tax in the Netherlands, as Thailand does not levy taxes.
Health insurance is a big problem, you have to insure yourself here. We have been living here for 3 years now. But given health insurance, we are not sure yet.
I have been living in Thailand for 4 years and at the beginning of this year I deregistered from the Netherlands and settled here permanently. So I no longer pay tax in the Netherlands, I have confirmations from the Tax Authorities. Everything is formally arranged and legal. Everything done through a specialized tax specialist / accountant. Just look up http://www.martyduijts.nl
For health insurance, I opted for the Dutch ONVZ, which has special insurance for expats and is comparable to basic insurance. Everything is reimbursed: hospital, doctor, medicines.
Hi Theo , are you paying tax in Thailand now ? is that 15%? about your income?
If you want to live in Thailand for tax purposes, you must also have a permanent address here, i.e. own house, owned or rented. You must then deregister from the Netherlands.
The ONVZ offers health insurance for expats that is equivalent to the basic insurance, only it is 3x as expensive, but that is more than compensated by the fact that you no longer pay tax.
AA insurance,
Our fellow countrymen in Hua hin always give me good advice without having a language problem.
My advice is to pass on your questions about how things are going in Thailand.
Within a few hours you will know the hat and the brim .
Hi Theo,
When you deregistered in NL and became a foreign resident for the tax authorities, you then had to provide a Thai taxable number. Or did you request a yellow booklet from your Amphur and have to submit it to the Dutch tax authorities? Please leave a comment. Thank you.
Jeroen
Moderator: please only comments on the topic.
Perhaps it is useful to have a list of what is not taxable in Thailand (and the Netherlands) if you emigrate to Thailand. The condition is, as stated, that you have deregistered in the Netherlands (but still have Dutch nationality) and are registered in Thailand.
– AOW: not taxable in Thailand or the Netherlands.
– Pension: not taxable in Thailand or the Netherlands, BUT:
– APB pension (government pension) is taxable in the Netherlands.
– Capital: not taxable in Thailand or the Netherlands.
– Income: taxable in Thailand.
– Payments from annuity policy, eg after severance pay: not taxable in Thailand or the Netherlands, at least that is my final conclusion after much searching on websites. It's tricky.
– Owner-occupied home (= certain type of capital) in the Netherlands: I think it is taxable in the Netherlands.
Is this correct and does anyone have any additions?
Eric,
The overview on which you owe tax in the Netherlands and Thailand is correct.
The surplus value of your home remains taxable in box 3 in the Netherlands. The further assets are not if you are taxable in Thailand.
But with regard to your first three lines, I have been advised otherwise by a highly paid expert.
In a nutshell, what he says boils down to this:
A high court (Supreme Court 1998, The Hague Court 200) has ruled that registration in the population register is not decisive. This concerns the actual place of residence. Registration in the population register is separate from this. However, the registration does provide an indication of the actual place of residence. If you are registered in the Netherlands, the tax authorities will have a reason to investigate the facts. Registration no longer plays a role! Residence is determined based on criteria such as where your social life takes place.
For what it's worth, I don't have a ruling from the IRS yet.
I am a tax advisor and it is true that the above is almost all correct. As soon as someone no longer lives in the Netherlands, they are no longer liable to pay tax in the Netherlands. As long as the house does not generate capital in box 3, it will also be exempt from tax. However, the tax authorities will impose a protective assessment on you, which expires after 10 and does not have to be paid. Only if an annuity or pension is surrendered.
Well I have a Thai tax number but I don't have a company or anything. I only use it to recover tax interest on my capital. I am now retired so get everything back every year.
@editorial.
This subject (as well as related health insurance) has been discussed so many times. Each time with a series of responses that often contradict each other or only create more confusion.
Suggested before; Wouldn't it be possible for the exact conditions, possibilities and consequences (remaining registered and insured in the Netherlands, or not and the tax consequences) to be precisely listed by the editors with the help of an expert (Business Association, Tax Authorities, Municipality) be placed ? With the correct explanation, articles of law, etc.
Apparently it is a “hot item” for many TB readers, no one can figure it out exactly, so you would do a lot of people a favor with it.
For many people TB is not only a discussion group, but above all a source of information. If I'm not mistaken, there are people with a journalistic background among you, perhaps they know the right way to get the right information.
Thanks for all the energy you put into TB.
Thank you Ferdinand , I could not have asked better !
As an answer that it would be different for everyone, I don't accept it.
There must be basic rules that are the same for everyone
Once we've listed them, you can continue from there.
I myself am 59 years old, no longer work, do not pay any benefits on my income to the Dutch tax authorities
I can't imagine if I want to take a year off that I will immediately get all sorts of problems (being deregistered from the Netherlands)
Health insurance and travel insurance seems a clear story to me!
Here people who are retired, whether or not married to a Thai woman, talk.
And people who are not married and under 60 years old .
No, the tax on interest you receive is 15%. You can (partially) reclaim it as you earn. So first tax-free allowance and then tax 5%-10%-15% etc. and if you are over 60 you get everything back. It is quite difficult to get a tax number.
I read all about emigrating to THAILAND and they all have a large income or their own house, but none talk about emigrating with a fixed income of 1.900,00 euros per month, whether you can or may live in THAILAND. Who will answer that for me.
With the current state of the euro this is just about possible .
800.000.- Thb per year in income is the condition.
This is not quite correct. You must have an income or be in possession of 800.000 baht, or a combination of both.
Thank you for answering my question. I can handle this, but I forgot to mention our age. I am 66 years old and my husband 61 years old. Are there any other rules for that or is it all the same? Isn't it also that you should have a savings account with more than enough money on it?
Dick: Would you like to capitalize a sentence next time? Small effort. I have edited the text for you, otherwise the moderator would have rejected it.
To avoid misunderstandings.
I now see that you are with 2 people.
The requirement is per person.
This is just an addition.
I wish you good luck.