Reader question: My marriage in Thailand is seen as a marriage of convenience in Belgium
Dear readers,
As a loyal reader of Thailandblog, about 5 years already, I would like to present my problem in order to find a solution to my very pressing question.
At that time, in March 2011, I married in Thailand according to the law in Bangkok, and afterwards also married according to the Buddhist rite. Had everything legalized, translated as it should be, and upon arrival in Belgium the marriage certificate was issued at my town hall to register my marriage. Then I was told that it would take about 6 to 7 months before I would receive an answer.
It was only after more than a year that I finally started to raise my own light and I received the answer that my file had been transferred to the Immigration Office, which in turn had transferred the file to the public prosecutor in Dendermonde with the statement of a possible marriage of convenience. I heard nothing more about it.
We are now 2016 and I am still married to my wife. I have therefore kept my marital obligation all these years in terms of living for her and her two children, who have now grown into 2 beautiful teenagers. I am currently back in Thailand and want to take steps to get rid of that label of "marriage of convenience" when I am back in Belgium. I want my marriage recognized.
I can prove that we have known each other for 8 years and have been married for 5 years. Last week I went to the local amphue with my wife and received a written statement that we were married in 2011 and that we are still together on the day of the statement. The statement is signed and stamped by the head of the amphue.
Can someone help me in this matter? So my question is actually; what should I do to have my marriage in Thailand recognized in Belgium, despite the fact that it was suspected as a marriage of convenience at the time.
My sincere thanks in advance.
Other
Dear Andre, this is a story that raises questions. Why do the Belgian authorities think that it is a sham relationship for you??? You don't write anything about this. As a former chief of the Aliens Police in the Netherlands, I have seen many such investigations pass by and then there was always a suspicion that had arisen at the Immigration and Naturalization Service or there was a tip behind it. Jealousy is a common phenomenon. Authorities have a lot of work to do and these kinds of investigations are then ignored or take a very long time. I think you have a right to information, so what remains for you to inquire about this, in writing to the authorities. Set a reasonable period of time that you expect an answer and if you do not receive it, you will still have to hire a lawyer who will make inquiries. Puts a little more weight in the scale, though.
You write that you apparently live in Thailand and in Belgium and where do your wife and children stay. Are they permanently in Belgium? I assume that there is also a cohabitation obligation in Belgium and if this does not actually take place, then one of the requirements is not met and the suspicion has already arisen. I assume that you know more than you are telling now, but in principle assume the good of people and try it in my proposed way, then there will really be clarity.
We also applied for a marriage visa about a year ago. We also have a proven permanent relationship of more than 9 years. All documents perfectly in order according to the rules …..I have been a widower for more than 12 years with a solid and good pension. Own home .... girlfriend is 10 years younger and has never been married and has traveled to Belgium with me more than 5 times with a tourist visa.
We also never heard anything again….despite many phone calls we were only sent from the ox to the donkey and were never able to obtain any information.
Apparently we're not the only ones.
Just picking up on your answer, more specifically the cohabitation obligation, indeed there is, but also exceptions to it, e.g. Belgians max. 1 year abroad, also outside Europe, without being deregistered from place of residence, so I assume that "duo tourisme" as a couple is not mandatory…,
(see also some world travelers situations in my memory...lol, don't know if eg Ruddy Vranckx Belgian reporter also takes married wife and wife to IS area for long-term reports....?
As aliens police, you know that nowadays all cases are almost automatically treated in this way, to test the strength of the marriage bond…, also understanding the abuses of all kinds, and that includes bona fide couples….. frustrating for both camps, understandable hence your colored reaction….
.
Standard procedure of thinking, don't do…. especially when you're out!
Dear David,
Just a comment on your piece.
I have written that the suspicion, why people believe that the relationship should be characterized as sham from what Andre writes to us, is raised. In fact, he says nothing about it. Maybe he knows more, maybe he doesn't. He knows how his relationship is filled, so they live together and fulfill the legal obligations that are prescribed. Say it. I have given an example and that is the cohabitation obligation and that is a strong asset to be able to control. I have often experienced that the sponsor could not be found at home and that the woman in question was just messing around. We don't know this or do you know this. You have to feed them who keep several mia nois. Incidentally, you rightly state that there are many sham relationships to report (you describe it as the abuses of all kinds) because this is a lucrative business and can quickly yield amounts for the sponsor of up to 20 to 30.000 euros. Certainly the African fellow man pays for this and is willing to do so. Forms of services rendered in kind are also known. So in this incidental case, it is and remains partly a guess as to what the motive is to do it as the sham relationship or. Perhaps this couple has integrity and they deserve a quick answer and hence my advice as described earlier.
Incidentally, I think green is a beautiful color, is very common and is soothing.
I was surprised to read your message. I am in the same situation but I have been waiting for approval from the public prosecutor's office for 3 years because now it should be the public prosecutor's office to decide on foreign marriages and not the municipality. I now live permanently in Thailand and I am still working on it. I returned my copies in a month and am still waiting .
I could be wrong, but are you more than 20 years old or are you older than 60? then they keep you on the lyntje. The good have to pay for the bad again.
Marrying a third-country national will soon become impossible. That's a lot to come when you read all the stories. It is a pity that it would be better to tell people like the fork in the stem and not to keep them on the line unnecessarily. That only causes sadness and stress.
Concerning age difference, they do indeed use that as a reason … .., you should consider how many years difference Minister of State and long deceased Camille Huysmans had when he married his secretary at the age of 90 , Minister Hugo Schilz also big age difference with his bride , Minister Martens ditto ……., if one goes to court and summons the state, it will be resolved in no time if the reasonable term has been exceeded and no irregularities have been proven,… one only hopes for the long-suffering of the married couple.
Marriage is a constitutional right.. , and has no grounds for refusal due to age difference , although this may be too controlling a clue for further scrutiny …, but sometimes you have to enforce your right …., and usually they wait that long until you actually take legal action or specify .
We had the same before in 2010. My wife was already here with temporary residence for 5 years. After 2 years of waiting, I complained to the town hall that the decision period had long been exceeded and I no longer thought this was a reasonable period. The clerk at the counter agreed with me and then registered our marriage.
It is deliberately held back for as long as possible in the hope that you will give up, otherwise they will have to pay out more pension because you will then be the head of the family. And that saves a lot.
Have they also recently introduced a new rule that if your wife is under 40 years old, on the death of the Belgian pensioner, she will change the widow's pension into a 2-year benefit (because she is considered young enough to still find work …)
There are exceptions to this rule , for example if there are children , or if death is due to an accident ..
Previously, widow's pension was paid out for life at a rate equal to the min. single pension at least, …provided that widow did not remarry , cohabitation is not considered married (!!…)
As for that “pack” difference in pension, this is only a weak argument because that “pack” concerns a 200 Euro/month difference between a family pension and a single person's pension. The person who marries for this will quickly come to the conclusion that a partner costs him more than he benefits. After all, that second person also has to eat and be dressed.
Because of the frequent abuses in marriages with foreigners, people have simply become more careful and, above all, stricter, especially when it comes to a marriage with a large age difference.
Moderator: Please just respond to the reader's question.
If the age is a big difference, it is always seen as a marriage of convenience, I have experienced it myself and even our daughter was born in Thailand, they have not even seen that, but with all that I did get the nail on the head and to 4 years she was gone an age of more than 16 years of work but rarely and they know that in the foreign affairs department only too well there will always be a vein under the grass and therefore the long waiting time for all that. it's not fair that they play with people's feelings this could be done differently mvg luc
Dear Luke,
I myself was allowed to handle a case in Amsterdam where, at the request of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, an alleged sham relationship was reported to my service. (The Aliens Police).
It concerned a relationship (marriage in Turkey) between a Dutch (white) woman aged 73 and a Turkish man aged 29.
The first time we knocked on the door of the referent (the lady in question) at her home address, the Turkish man fled through the back of the building????? It is still unclear why he did this.
On a second and third visit I spoke extensively with the lady in question and it became clear to me that there was indeed a serious relationship. A positive advice has been issued and they live happily ever after. Please some nuance in thinking can't hurt.
Yes, but those are almost cases that are really obvious. In Belgium, every marriage with a third-country national is now systematically regarded as a marriage of convenience.
Dear André, I think there are two sizes and two weights in Belgium. If a Belgian marries a foreign Muslim, it will be approved within a month, seen at a friend of mine. If a Belgian gets married with a Thai woman, it is generally assumed that this is a marriage of convenience, even if that woman has already been to Belgium 5 times with me. Her children study here at the Catholic University of Leuven, one as a doctor, one as a midwife. I can conclude my marriage in Thailand, she couldn't get a visa to get married here in Belgium, couldn't register it there as Immigration Office writes; they believe that this is a marriage of convenience as you (the husband) are a pub owner and a farmer at the same time. I don't know where they get it from but I am disabled, always been a sales manager, reason for not approving the marriage as they think I want my wife to work as a prostitute as I own a cafe. I asked where they get that from, secondly I have not seen a single bar owner who is a farmer at the same time, also said that I have never filed a tax return for the bar, where they replied that I also commit fraud. I live on the coast in an apartment, have said that my animals are grazing on the beach, my utility vehicles (tractor, pick-thresher and the like) are in the underground garage and my land is flooded twice a day, still had they don't listen. I am now 58 years old and my wife 55 years old, I have never seen a prostitute let alone 55 years old. I have never owned a café, restaurant, hotel and have never been a farmer. This way you can see what they know about a man of Belgian nationality. In which country do we live?
Why is a marriage with a Muslim woman registered immediately and a marriage with a Buddhist is not registered, dear André (namesake) if they did not register a Muslim woman, there would be a few men with knives and firearms in the town hall in no time, with Buddhists having they don't have that problem. I got this answer from someone at the town hall.
I wish you good luck and hope you know what to do, but we Belgians don't risk something like that (knives and firearms) but like me, I see your marriage in a gloomy way. Greetings, Andre
In reading this I wish to share our experiences, mine and my partner Nareth.
I deliberately opted for legal cohabitation….
I met my partner, of cambodian origin, about 4 years ago.
We are 15 years apart, and I was 53 at the time.
I had the freedom to go there about 3 times / year, she came to Belgium during the big school holidays. (female teacher). Pretty soon I was in her friends – school circle., and vice versa.
My passion to document all my and our travels quite precisely turned out to have been a great stroke of luck. From plane tickets, travel pass stamps, hotel invoices, and documented photos of activities, everything was neatly arranged chronologically.
In January 2015 we decided that she would come to Belgium. We opted for a C visa with a view to official cohabitation. (we knew each other for more than 3 years)
She first took a short introductory Dutch course in Phnom Penh.
Thanks to the good logistical support of the Belgian consulate in Phnom Penh, the good website of the embassy, and a meticulous follow-up of the requirements to draw up a file, we went to the Belgian embassy in Bangkok in June in good spirits.
Our file, more than 100 pages, was kindly received. The visa was already approved in June, and my partner came to Belgium in September.
The next day we went to the notary for a deed of legal cohabitation.
And then to the competent official in Zaventem.
After that everything went as it should. (incl. visit from the local police officer)
My partner now has ID for 5 years of residence here.
She diligently follows her integration process . (4 days a week), and her first sentences of Dutch already sound intelligible.
We are both very happy that the administrative road has become a patient, but not a negative experience for us.
We wish every reader, who also has such plans, the same experience.
Greetings
Dirk&Nareth
How can you know that that file was kindly received. When applying for a visa, it is only the applicant who is allowed in. The partner or friend is not allowed to enter.
Sawasdee khap,
I suspect that André's problem will be of a financial nature to have the marriage recognized in Belgium. Is he wealthy enough to prove that his Thai wife can live at his expense? Etc…
I would like to get in touch with Dirk & Nareth (“Sommei”) as I wish to get into a similar situation with my Cambodian girlfriend who has already visited Belgium (3 m) and to whom I will go again in August . expectant.
We also wish to transfer via C visa later this year with a view to legal cohabitation and marriage later on.
Best regards,
Serge
Hallo,
Let us know your email address.
I will contact you then.
Greetings
Dear readers, thank you in the first place for the sincere responses to my question. I understand that some questions have arisen that approach the suspicions of: "there must be something wrong somewhere." Well, I assure you that everything went according to the rules, and there is no negative background. I should have given more information about myself, so here it is. I myself am 62 years old, early retirement in the context of a restructuring at the time at Volkwagen Brussels in 2008. I met my wife in 2008 in Bangkok. She was 28 years old then and now she is 36. Her brother studied there at the university. Don't ask me which university it was. I met her in the hotel where she was staying. She was there with her brother's current girlfriend. He was a diligent student as he is currently an officer in the Thai army. Be proud of that guest. ha ha ha ha. Well, that aside. I myself will soon be 63 so what. Feel good and chicken. And don't come running with the argument "I guess, with such a young woman" hahahaha just kidding on my part. In 2011 we got married in Bangkok and a week later married according to the Buddhist rite in the village where she lives in Tha Sala in the Nakhon si Thammarath district. Party with all the trimmings. My wife came to Belgium in 2010 for a month. She had then received a visa for 1 month without any problem. She then returned home properly after that month. By the way, she has 2 children, and a mother belongs to the children and not far away in a strange cold country like Belgium. On my return to Belgium I handed over all the marriage papers to the town hall to register my marriage, where I was told that it would take some time before I would receive an answer. In the meantime my wife applied for a visa for 3 months. After a few weeks she received a letter from the Belgian embassy, completely in Dutch. She then sent me that letter to me in Belgium and I then let her know the contents. Visa REFUSED. Reason: There were not enough guarantees that she would return home. Then I went back to her. Several times anyway. After my numerous visits, when I returned to Belgium, I went to ask the municipality how things were with my application for recognition of my marriage. OOOOOO sir, those papers have been with the foreigners service for a long time.......????? Just ask them for information. But sir, your papers are with the prosecutor in Dendermonde, at the public prosecutor's office. It could be a sham marriage. WHAT PLEASE a marriage of convenience, come on!!! We will keep you informed about the investigation. Well, I've been waiting for the result of that investigation for almost 4 years now. I'm currently here with my wife for 1 month and on June 29 I'm leaving back to that apeland in Belgium. In the meantime, my wife is going to apply for a visa for 3 months to come to Belgium. It's just the summer months, so the temperature will be better than expected. Then I'm going to go through all those shifts with her to get acquainted with my "false wife". Really curious to see their faces. Provided she gets that visa, of course. They're going to recognize my marriage, even if I had to drag one over his desk. I'm also going to show that document from the amphue, a kind of excerpt from the population register, on which we are still registered as married to this day. Have it translated first…..etc.. etc… It will be fine, feel it. So to be clear, I live in Belgium, wife in Thailand in our house, together with the 2 children who have already become beautiful teenagers. As a final conclusion, I would like to make it clear that it is my intention that I will come to live in Thailand within 2 years, and that it is therefore not my intention that my wife will come to live in Belgium. Let us be clear on that. Hoping to have been a little clearer with this, I greet you warmly and thank you on behalf of my wife Kita and myself.
Dear Andre
Allow me when I read your story I know where it went wrong. It is the case if you marry abroad in your case Thailand and then you want your wife to come to Belgium, this will not be possible with a so-called tourist visa 3 months that your wife had apparently applied for at that time. This will usually be refused so that it is assumed that your wife will want to settle with you and stay in Belgium. It is true that for each purpose of visa, the right visa must be applied for…..visa for study..marriage…tourism….visiting family and friends are specific.
So in your case the DVZ gets suspicious because you, as married people, apparently apply for a tourism visa.
In your case, as they call it, it is a family reunification and your girlfriend should have applied for this specific D visa for family reunification after marriage…..
I understand that it is a complex matter and often very vague…..also there are not many people who can clarify…you have to figure it all out yourself…I have also experienced it.
Otherwise, ask your question on the Belgian Thailand Forum ...... there are people who are very familiar with that matter
Dear Fred,
Of course she didn't want to come here with a tourist visa, but with a reunification visa or in short a D – visa.
Whether I am wealthy, I can present an account statement to date with an amount of 6 figures starting with a 7 and then 5 ciifers without a comma in between. If that wasn't enough then I don't know what is. I have my own house here on the coast with 6 bedrooms, 6 bathrooms and an outdoor swimming pool.
What I cannot understand is that Belgians who marry a foreign Muslim woman see their marriage registered within a month, that is above my head, even if two foreign Muslim women get married in Belgium, that is apparently also the case.
One question : why still pay taxes and get nothing or little in return (just a little social security) if we ask or need something ourselves. (not only with this government was also the case with the previous government)
Something is wrong. Your wife applies for family reunification and receives a letter three weeks later stating that there is no guarantee that she will return home ??? I thought that the visa for family reunification is meant NOT to have to go home anymore.
Your wife, if I understand correctly, applied for that visa before it was registered? Yes, it doesn't surprise me. Something isn't quite right.
On the other hand, there are also certain conditions for family reunification, such as a fixed and stable income. In the case of bridging pension, the problem is that the part of the employer's contribution is not taken into account. I do know of friends who have been arrested there as well. Whether other abilities are taken into account is possible, but then you have to prove them
Conclusion …..applying for a visa for family reunification and getting an answer after only 3 weeks that this was refused due to the risk of no return is impossible …..
In any case, the processing for a family reunification visa takes much longer than 3 weeks, sometimes up to 6 months, before approval follows.
If the reason for refusal is that there is insufficient guarantee for return, it is not possible that the application concerned a visa for family reunification. Surely you understand that. The family reunification is now not with the intention of having to return to the home country 2 months later.
This reason is always a motive when applying for a tourism visa.
As far as those Muslims are concerned, I would still go to the site that I gave you, family reunification.xooit.be, there you will notice that they too experience the necessary vicissitudes ... and it does not run smoothly for them either .... On cafe is called that rather rap, I know that too.
Now it is true that as with everything, some people have more luck than others ……because I personally know quite a few Belgians who have managed everything with a Thai without the slightest effort.
hello Serge, what do you mean by “wealthy enough” ???? My wife is not going to work and she takes care of the children very well, and she also maintains our house here on her own. It's not about how rich we are, it's about how we treat each other. With respect and love. And what matters most to a Thai woman is the certainty of a peaceful future. Don't mean CAREFREE. A certainty for her and a certainty that the children can go to school so that they can also build a future for them later on. By the way, I have known my wife for 8 years, and all that time……… well, you can fill in the rest yourself. The Belgian state does not care what their citizens do with their money, it is of secondary importance to them. What matters to them is only tax and more tax. Cash register. Belgium at its best. Greetings Andre
The amounts are objectively determined which are applicable to be wealthy enough to support your partner. If you comply, this is not the problem.
Therefore, in the case of a “debit” are. Your latest payslips requested.
Other
Familiehereniging.xooit.be is also a good site to help you further
Can you ask your questions and are there people who know how to proceed… in any case, it seems clear to me…..your wife wanted to come to Belgium with a tourist visa, while you should have applied for a visa D for family reunification at that time.
Hello SOMMEIL,
My email : [email protected]
MVG