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Home » Reader question » Reader question: Don't Isaaners have basic standards of decency?
Reader question: Don't Isaaners have basic standards of decency?
Dear readers,
Isaners are often spoken of with great admiration here, such as their fight against poverty and the sense of community, but there is also another side. What often bothers me is the lack of manners when I am in Isaan.
Have you ever had someone hold a door open for you? Not me. If you're talking to someone, someone else will scream right through to ask you something. Smack while eating, burp. Noise pollution, throwing rubbish everywhere and so on.
I'm not even talking about not keeping appointments, being late or just not showing up for days. Even my girlfriend, who comes from the Isaan herself, is annoyed by her own family (uncles, cousins) who try to scam her. Such as asking too much money for an extension to the house. And so I can go on and on.
To be honest, a lot of them act like jackasses. Aren't they taught decent manners and manners?
Regards,
Mart
Most people in Isan are farmers, or have parents who are farmers.
So why wouldn't they be jackass?
By the way, customs differ all over the world.
It is not my experience that in Thailand the door is held open for others.
Maybe where there are a lot of foreigners, because habits are often contagious.
On the other hand, the Thai will think that foreigners, who enter the house with their dirty shoes on, are ill-mannered jerks.
Another example: In the Netherlands you have to eat your plate empty, because throwing food away is a waste.
In some other countries you should not eat your plate completely empty, because then the host will think that he has not given you enough to eat.
People with good and bad manners can be found everywhere.
It reads that you have chosen a friend with an anti-social family.
I live in Isan, and although I do know a few families in the village, with bad manners (also by Thai standards), that is certainly not the rule, but the exception.
Throwing out the garbage is a legacy of the past.
Waste used to disappear by itself, because it was all natural waste.
The people in Isan are simply not used to waste that does not disappear by itself.
The government does not really help with that either, by ensuring proper waste processing.
It is often difficult to get rid of your waste.
I am a farmer's lout from Groningen who was very embarrassed when he first went out for dinner with his very posh future in-laws. I didn't know what OSM meant!
Desiderius Erasmus (1466-1536) wrote short Latin pieces for students. On etiquette he wrote: 'Don't blow your nose into your neighbour's shirt, but into your own. Don't spit on the table in front of you, but on the floor behind you.
Manners are very individual and differ in place and time. If there was something that really bothered me, like throwing junk out there or being late for an appointment, I said something about it, usually with some sarcastic humor. Nobody blamed me for that, but did it help anything?
Of course, the manners, and what people consider decent or not, differ worldwide, but as you just pointed out, it is also different individually, depending on how you were brought up. In Bangkok, when I am in the privileged position of staying in a 5* hotel, the porters, often dressed in a spotless white uniform with gloves on, rush to hold open the door of my taxi and the entrance door to the lobby. But when I've been out for dinner with my in-laws, I really shouldn't expect my Thai cousin, who leaves the restaurant right in front of me, to hold the door open for me. Seemed rude to me at first but it just doesn't occur to her and I've (fortunately) learned a lot about Thai manners in twenty years. For example, not saying thank you does not imply that one would be ungrateful but rather a matter of not being able to behave and ordering an abundance of dishes in a restaurant does not necessarily mean that one is greedy, rather they want to taste everything, and yes They rarely have that chance, so when the opportunity arises, they make use of it. And smacking is often an appreciation that the food tastes good, my partner also does at home and instead I don't mind it, I can enjoy it. In the vicinity of Udon Thani lives a good acquaintance of mine, with wife, parents and children. Been there once, the old wooden house looks like a draughty ruin, but in terms of clothing everyone looked like a ring. When I am in his company I am regularly (rightly) corrected by him, namely when I forget to say 'crab or khap' when I ask for something or order something in Thai. By the way, many 'farangs' in Thailand forget that, not realizing that Thais can consider this as ill-mannered. Just as ill-mannered as the fact that in tourist places a number of foreigners believe that it is normal to visit a supermarket or restaurant bare-chested, or with only a swimming trunks on. Mart, who posted this entry, also mentions "throwing rubbish everywhere and so on." I don't know what he means by 'keep going', but in terms of crushing rubbish everywhere, the Netherlands is certainly not inferior to Thalland. Criminals in the Netherlands dump their drug waste in forests and nature reserves, in the cities there is often more waste next to it than in the rubbish containers, parking lots are littered with cans, plastic bags and bottles, food waste packaging, cylinders of nitrous oxide balloons and in some streets you do not see any tiles more but you seem to be walking on a carpet that has been spat out. I sometimes visit a casino in the Netherlands, but also in Cambodia and other countries. Many Chinese do the same and if you happen to find a Chinese on the toilet, don't be surprised if he rattles loudly and spits into the urinal or sink. Wouldn't get into my head but perfectly normal for them. Would Desiderius also find Erasmus?
Is not only in Isaan, I stay in the north every year and it bothers me that people do not know 3 things, namely; Say hello, sorry and thank you.
In addition, it is also normal to stand in line in front of you, grab your moped without asking or pick fruit in front of you, etc.
I find it very difficult to get used to this
Since the children are raised by the grandparents and they themselves do not know the norms, it will probably continue for generations.
It strikes me that people of the middle class and above know the standards, so it is there.
Sincerely,
Willc
Strange, my (positive) experiences are completely different.
greetings ben.
Sorry Ben,
How else…?
Kindly describe.
kind regards,
Willc
Hello Willc, it has been about eight years now that I have been going to Thailand every year. Always for a month because I was still working. My girlfriend lives (and works) in Amphoe kukaeo, a village about 40km from Udon Thani. I never experience any antisocial fuss” or something like that, even the opposite. I know that if you stay there longer, it might be something else, but I don't believe in that either. I met my girlfriend through (Thai) and from the very beginning there was a good bond. Almost the entire family came to pick me up at the airport the first time. Everyone valued everyone. There was understanding that it was all new, also for me. Stopped along the way to eat and then went to sleep. The next day we were introduced to various people in the village and ultimately mutual acceptance. People were even invited to come for dinner in the evening. Of course you have to contribute to your livelihood, but that too remained within the possible limits. If things were a little more difficult, that was no problem. The warm weather also helps (February) the people are satisfied and did their best to take me to their hearts. My girlfriend also visited Holland once, I also respected that, for her it was also a "gamble" traveling alone and doing it anyway. Now I plan to go again and then talk about whether I will stay there forever. This is, in broad strokes, my story and take people as they are and there is nothing wrong with that.
Sincerely, Ben.
Believe me, this is not typical Isaan.
In the field of hygiene in food preparation, in the eyes of the NVWA in Thailand, it is probably far below par to say it somewhat positively.
The people who follow Dutch etiquette will not understand the klootjesfolk either.
In the end, it is a personal decision to find something appropriate or inappropriate. In the banking world, it is normal to wear a suit. For me complete nonsense because you can also do your job with lesser clothing. In fact, people in suits are not my favorite interlocutors.
But if it bothers you, you can also just say something like "burping or smacking is seen as not neat" and then show a video from Lucky TV in which Willy is made fun of. The latter is impossible in Thailand and then the baht can fall quickly.
Dear Mart and several visitors of Thailandblog
Why get annoyed at everything?
You are not in the Netherlands or Belgium!
Asia is a completely different part of the world with different standards of decency and customs
You have noticed the things you mention and are different from your standards.
You are a guest in Thailand and just adjust.
Use the knowledge you have now learn to deal with it
Take advantage of it and by the way in ned / belgium there are also a lot of aso,s around so.....
Greetings Eric
Dear Eric, that of a guest in Thailand bothers me terribly, my guests do not have to pay for everything and show their passport every 30 months and certainly do not show how much money you have every year and if they cannot handle enough, they show that I then throw them outside! We foreigners bring in a lot of money for the Thais, pay the domestic help, the gardener, the car washers, painters, the house builders, etc., etc., then you also have to add the people from emigration. Then leave that guy out. the sequel.
Gret Hans W
Completely agree with Eric, we are guests here in Thailand, unless you have a Thai permanent residence visa. Then it is possible to obtain Thai naturalized citizen.
It is exceptional that you can live permanently in Thailand.
Have you ever tried to get an Asian to the Netherlands? If you are very lucky that you are allowed to go there at all, you do not have to report every 90 days, no, you just have to fuck off after 3 months.
Talk about welcome.
And don't tell me I'm frustrated. my partner has a permanent residence permit so I am not bothered by anything. But before she got that license, don't talk to me about it. Quite different from visiting immigration every 90 days.
So what hospitable?
And yes of course we bring in a lot of money but only those who have a good income hence the income and / or asset conditions.
They are logically not waiting for people who can hardly provide for their own income, they would rather see them stay in their home country. What's wrong with that?
A somewhat wealthy Jan Modaal must have approximately 1952 euros net or 800.000 baht in a Thai bank account for a long-term stay in Thailand. It is no longer a small matter for many. Yes, yes, the pensions are sky-high and among the best in the Netherlands. If your pension is below par, you are not welcome in Thailand. So that's what's wrong, because of the price drop, many of us have been left in the lurch.
Completely different uses than we are used to. I don't worry about it and get used to it effortlessly and like to hold the door open for someone else. What I would REALLY worry about is your family asking too much money for the addition to a house. Typical and highly unusual when it comes to relatives. I would be concerned about THAT because it speaks volumes in my opinion…………. Courage……
You are 100% right Martin!
But you are in a foreign country with completely different customs in which you grew up! That's the only excuse I can find!
I also keep getting annoyed by certain 'bad manners': like leaving without saying anything. That's upsetting me!
The other bad habit of 'not being on time' I've put a limit to here in the family! 5555 I agree on a certain hour and then say very clearly: 'Farrang time'!!!!!! Don't worry, they will be on time for the appointment! The other day my stepdaughter was even 10 minutes early!!!!! 55555
Smacking at the table, burping, etc. those table manners well you learn to live with that!
greetings
I also use that farang time with my regular taxi driver.
When I call and she says 30 minutes I always ask for farang minutes, or Thai minutes.
She always uses farang minutes these days – at least with me. It's probably not handy with a Thai, because then she has to wait, because she only expects the taxi after 45 minutes, and the meter doesn't go up that fast if the taxi isn't running.
After 25 years nothing annoys me anymore. As a guest I have adapted and if the Thai throws rubbish on the street I show them how to do it. I pick it up and then place it in a dumpster hoping they don't do it again next time. If I have an appointment, I know from experience that they will be late or not at all, so I just keep doing what I'm doing.
You get used to everything but you have to be patient.
many children are spoiled to the bone from an early age.
This phenomenon is a vicious circle that is difficult to break.
As adults they often don't behave much better, the behavior is considered (normal), I think.
But it's cringeworthy at times.
There are of course limits in what is permissible, but that does not only apply to Thai.
Mart wrote that there is a lack of manners in Isaan.
But like Ben, I have other positive experiences. Every country or region has its own ways.
When I'm in the Netherlands and sitting in a restaurant, I sometimes look with surprise at the table manners of many Dutch people and especially of the younger generation. Etiquette, as we used to learn, is almost a thing of the past.
And as far as noise nuisance and rubbish is concerned, people in the Netherlands can do something about that.
Adapting to the local population often produces surprising results.
Wonderful story with exactly those Asian differences with Western norms and values.
I can't wait to leave for Thailand next month and escape the Netherlands for a month.
Don't get annoyed with Rutten and cs who promise a lot and do nothing, litter next to the containers, mocromafia, paedo party, racism, dissatisfaction among nurses, farmers, construction workers, nitrogen
…….is it still not too bad in the Isan.
Ralph
your rhetoric about the isaan makes some sense. Comparing them to “peasants” is way over the top, however, and an insult to the peasants!
Dear Mart, I have no experience in Isaan but live in Bangkok.
What I notice every day and what also annoys me is that 95% of Thais never put their chair back in place when leaving the table.
I notice this in both the better and cheap eateries.
They slide backwards in their chairs with a tearing sound and then take off without a boo or ba, leaving their chair behind in the middle of the corridor.
Sometimes I can't resist standing up myself and ostentatiously putting some chairs back in place, to the great astonishment of the other Thais present and even to the astonishment of the restaurant staff who don't have to do it themselves now.
And I'm sure most of our readers here can attest to this, that's commonplace everywhere.
Then I sometimes wonder why no one ever points out to the children an elementary rule of behavior such as leaving the table neatly.
In any case, it gives me a warm satisfaction to see that my Thai friends do and respect this after I had pointed this out to them (several times).
You see, it's never too late.
Putting your seat back may be an elementary rule of conduct in the Netherlands, but apparently not in Thailand.
In Thailand you take off your shoes when you enter a house.
In the Netherlands this is usually requested by the host or hostess.
But taking off shoes is a fairly new rule of conduct.
It didn't exist with my grandparents and my parents.
That rule was probably only introduced in the Netherlands with the (expensive) permanent floor covering.
Rules of conduct are not universal, they are often born out of necessity.
Since – at least in the villages in Isan – people often sleep, eat and live on the floor, it is not so obvious that they have a rule of conduct for pushing chairs under the table.
Probably haven't been to NL for a while, because the aforementioned lack of manners, bastard behavior if you will, has been elevated to the norm there years ago!
Many Thai will speak exactly the same about Farang as the Farang about the Thai.
Decency has something to do with norms, rules and customs, and these are of course not always the same between different cultures.
Someone who comes to a foreign culture like Thailand for the first time, despite feeling that he has prepared himself well, will unconsciously do things that are highly indecent in the eyes of the Thai.
The Thai, despite finding this indecent, will continue to smile in a friendly way to make the guest feel welcome and that he has not done anything wrong.
On the other hand, Farang will see things from the Thai, which may be different, but in the end are just as indecent as our behavior towards the Thai.
It is indecent if we consciously do not apply the learned norms, and what has never been learned can at best be called ignorance.
When we see indecency, just like the hosts do, we should learn to smile in a friendly way, then we will at least have learned a Thai decency rule to stay as a guest in this country.
And if someone already believes that he does everything perfectly, then at least he can still be called indecently arrogant.555
A nice article. Glad I can write it off!
It's not just the Thai, what would you think of the Swiss. They are farmers louts, but of course they are also farmers in the mountainous country who take the food themselves between the cows.
Near me in the dark-side of Jomtien is a very good Swiss restaurant called Sämis and what you experience there is incredible. My mother had beaten her wildly because every time I left an elbow on the table unused at the table I got a blow. With my friend Sämis, the food is unanimously pushed in with only the right hand. A monkey has more manners!
And then the Dutchman…
I recently left my good friend Gerrit from GO bistro in Soi 7 of Jomtien saying that “this level of conversation was too low to feel at home here any longer”.
I am in a nice animated conversation with a man unknown to me, everyone has their say until another person starts interfering with us and while the punch line of my story is coming, he puts his iPad under the nose of my interlocutor to show the newly purchased car that his stepdaughter has purchased.
This same man had previously caused great annoyance in me. While about 12 people are enjoying coffee or something else with Gerrit, he takes his addictive iPad out of a bag and starts a conversation with someone in the Netherlands using the loudspeaker. ( the sound on 10 )
Unfortunately, this phenomenon is more common among Russians, Italians and drunken Englishmen.
Maybe if you have taken the trouble to read all this and you come to the conclusion "man what are you so worried about", yes I am concerned about that and stay at home more and more to dig through Thailandblog for example.
Best regards.
Fred R .