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Home » Reader question » Does cohabitation affect your pension benefit?
Does cohabitation affect your pension benefit?
Dear readers,
Have a question about the pension. Does living together affect you retirement payment?
Received a mail from ABP this morning that my pension is being recalculated. The ABP has received a message from the SVB that I live together and have a reduction of 300 euros per month.
Regards,
Hennie
What does your pension contract say? Maybe read there first and then approach the ABP and ask why the ABP cuts you off with 300 e. Or has the SVB reduced you by 300 e per month? Your last sentence can be read in two ways.
Dear Eric
Sorry that I was a bit unclear, but the AOW has been reduced by 300 Eur.
And on Monday I will call the ABP.
But is the pension linked to the AOW?
Hennie, my pension is not, but your pension may be. So consult your pension agreement or contact the ABP. Your AOW has changed and as far as I understand it from 'single' to 'cohabiting'. Then you actually get a lot less gross.
AOW is a benefit based on a pay-as-you-go system. Any additional pension you accrue yourself is based on the capital funding system. You pay a contribution for your later personal pension. AOW you pay for someone else. As soon as you receive AOW, it is the others who pay for you. Your personal circumstances are actually taken into account. Single or cohabiting. It therefore does not matter who the other person is or whether they have an income, are entitled to or will receive state pension. Living together means receiving about 300 euros less AOW. Unfortunately for you.
Just do a google search for “lower pension due to cohabitation” and you will come across quite a few articles related to your question.
See for example https://www.consumentenbond.nl/geldgids/geldgids-uitgelicht/abp-pensioen-gekort-na-samenwonen.
Yes, that's that perverse Dutch politics again. You are indeed going backwards. It is assumed that your partner, just like in the Netherlands, contributes to your household. Even though the whole world knows that this is 90% not the case. So not only do you need more because of your partner, money is also deducted. I have read this many times on this blog.
In the Netherlands it makes some sense, because an unemployed partner still receives money, but here? They put you because you live here in the worst tax bracket, when you still have to pay taxes, have no deductions and a reduction in your benefits. Your situation will only be put in favor of the Dutch government. You are the loser.
You write ": not only do you need more for your partner". That's right, 70s thinking that changed forever in the 80s, 40 years ago. Because why should your neighbor pay for your partner? And why should your partner not have to work and why should the community pay for this non-working partner? Many also live alone in Thailand or the Netherlands and have no one who can contribute to the costs, so they have to pay for everything alone, while someone with a partner can share the costs.
This pertained to Thailand, not to the Netherlands. Most of the women here with Farangs earn maybe 9000 Baht or a little more if they work six days a week. So she has to work full-time because the Dutch state believes she has to contribute? Then the relationships must also be like in the Netherlands. A minimum salary in the Netherlands still yields a multiple of what is earned in Thailand. Then the contribution must also be reduced proportionally, so by 50 euros or something similar. Not with 300. That's more than many people here earn.
Well, Sjaak, if I interpret your comment correctly, then you are a warm supporter of the country factor!
Keep it up, take it to Dutch politics, and get what you want: when you move to Thailand, the state pension will be adjusted to the level here and you and all your compatriots can tighten their belts, put a handful of insects in the pan with some cheap palm oil , eat a fish from the rice field or a chicken that was killed by a car, leaves from the tree, drink water from heaven, with a toilet you have to squat on, drive a 20 year old Honda rattle moped that has been repaired a dozen times and what more ' nice' is to a poor existence. OK, I'm charging now...... But you know damn well what I mean.
Be happy that you can receive your state pension at the Dutch price level here. And again, your choice of partner and country does not have to come at the expense of the Dutch treasury.
Why should Sjaak S be happy that he receives his state pension at the Dutch price level? He also paid his legally required premiums when building up his state pension, just as much as others who did not go abroad. Until a few years ago you received a certain amount when you reached state pension age and married couples received a supplement. However, politicians determined that the state pension had to be individualized, which implies that a single person currently actually receives 300 euros more per month than if you are married and one of the partners has not yet reached state pension age. Only when both have reached state pension age will you receive the same amount as you used to receive when you were married/cohabiting. In the Netherlands, it is possible to qualify for a supplement, the AIO, in the event of an insufficient AOW benefit. Among other things, many immigrants in the Netherlands (out of necessity) make use of this, partly because they have paid contributions to the state pension for less than 50 years. You are not eligible for this allowance if you live in Thailand as a Dutch citizen. The reality is that the age difference between cohabiting partners in the Netherlands is significantly less than Dutch people in Thailand with a Thai partner. Conclusion: after some time, both partners in the Netherlands will receive an AOW pension, while the Dutchman in Thailand with a Thai partner will receive a lifelong reduction of currently 300 euros per month than if he were to live alone in Thailand. Not only because of the age difference, but also because the Thai partner will simply (and rightly so) never receive an old-age pension. So don't come up with the story that Sjaak S's choice to live in Thailand would be at the expense of the Dutch treasury. I would even think that the opposite is true. Most of the costs of pensioners are incurred due to illness and care. Sjaak S ea have most probably paid premiums for these costs throughout their working life in the Netherlands, but precisely now that the risk of such costs is increasing as they get older, they can no longer claim this. They have to rely on expensive private insurance with exclusions, of course without a surcharge for the health insurance to which many in the Netherlands are entitled, and any informal care provided by their Thai partner. Furthermore, you make a caricature of how Thai people live in Thailand. Your self-proclaimed chartered description may hold true for some, but fortunately the majority of Thai people live under better conditions. And apart from perhaps the rent of a house/condo, and of course Sjaak S cannot claim rent allowance as many Dutch tenants do, which is generally lower than in the Netherlands, as well as water and electricity, the cost of living for a foreigner is in Thailand considerably higher than many people think. This is actually also evident from the immigration requirement of a monthly income of 65.000 baht for an unmarried foreigner for the extension of his residence permit. All in all, I completely agree with Sjaak S's response. The Dutch government assumes a proportional contribution to living expenses between partners, while this is certainly not the case in Thailand. Exactly as Sjaak S points out. One more question for you Erik.
whom he cares for and is in turn cared for? The knife cuts both ways, I can hardly imagine that you object to that.
A huge story, but the fact remains that a pensioner who goes to live in TH and deregisters from NL does this himself. Let's hope: well prepared, extremely well informed, and in their right mind. It is up to him to know that a 66-year-old Dutchman leaves for TH as a single person and starts living with a TH partner. He knows that in that case he is no longer seen as single, it is not a fact. The fact that that partner has no or minimal income is not a concern for the Dutch government. The allocation of a surcharge means that this must be paid from the general budget, i.e. from taxpayers' money. Why, I ask you dear Leo, should the NL taxpayer pay for a personal choice and decision of a pensioner who knowingly and willingly went to live in TH? That he makes a choice of partner is his business and responsibility. It is her business that that partner has no or minimal income. In NL, a single pensioner also loses his allowance if he starts living together. On the other hand, he can rely on other regulations. The relevant pensioner in TH cannot do that and he knows that, or he should have known that. And how he lives and lives in TH is further his business.
I know it's a pay-as-you-go system, but me and my wife have paid for this all our lives. My wife passed away when she was 55 fus she doesn't get a penny from her deposit.
The remark that the Dutch taxpayer has to pay for a personal choice is just as misplaced as the question why childless people still have to pay child benefit, because having children is also a personal choice. And so I can think of some more.
I agree with every state pensioner who lives in Thailand with a Thai partner if he tries to get out of that discount.
Purely according to the law, you paid AOW for the elderly at the time, so you did not save for your own AOW. Fortunately, you keep your state pension because today's workers pay you that. By living together you will lose an extra allowance. So it is not a 'discount on your state pension' if you decide to live in Thailand. You can also choose to move to the Netherlands as a couple, in which case you will often be entitled to benefits again (healthcare allowance, rental allowance, additional social assistance).
If one is of the opinion that everyone should keep their allowances from a social point of view, I would lobby politicians to abolish single person allowances and increase the personal state pension. This in turn reduces the need for checks on fraud with allowances and the like.
The Dutch tax system is based on pay-as-you-go and solidarity systems. So we all pay for all the facilities. This includes granting an allowance to a single pensioner who wants to live in TH in his old age. If he then decides to live together, it is up to them to make do. Example: an acquaintance in Korat lost his TH wife due to misconduct. After living alone for 3 years, at the age of 76, he picked up a 32-year-old store employee and child in the “Mall”. (They were business agreements, but romantics will argue that there was a love relationship.) He no longer dared to be alone due to health problems, she wanted a home and shelter for her child and herself.
Knowledge, of course, now received less state pension. Justifiably. Should we in the Netherlands provide benefits for these types of choices? I didn't think so.
Dear RuudB, as long as he does not start living together in Thailand until his death, the single AOW pensioner will receive an AOW amount of currently € 1215 gross p/m. The payroll tax to be withheld is € 227. For whatever reason, he decides to move in together. Of course I agree with you that it would be undesirable and extremely unreasonable if he were to receive a supplement to his AOW as a result of this decision, of which the Dutch taxpayer would be the victim. But the opposite applies, because he will be fined for his decision in the form of a reduction of his state pension to € 835 gross (withheld payroll tax € 156). So the Dutch taxpayer actually benefits from his decision. Yes, I know this is in accordance with the law, but it is in fact focused on circumstances in the Netherlands. I think your point of view is harsh because you are actually saying that the 66-year-old should stay alone because he will then be entitled to his full single AOW. Just a comparison, a fictitious person from Turkey, let's call him Hasan, came to the Netherlands in 1984 at the age of 31 to work. His wife, 5 years his junior, joined him in 1989. In 2019, Hasan is entitled to AOW, his wife obviously not yet, but because he has only paid contributions for 35 years, he will receive a benefit of 70%. Hasan has built up only a small pension and his wife is not working. Fall below the social minimum and rightly appeal to the AIO. (Supplementary income provision for the elderly). Now our Dutch 'adventurer', let's call him Karel, who has been a widower for several years and has been receiving state pension since last year. Karel receives 100% single state pension because he has lived in the Netherlands all his life and paid contributions. Karel went to Thailand immediately after his state pension age on the basis of his state pension income, a pension and savings. He met a new Thai love, unfortunately with hardly any income. They decide to live together and he is punished for that decision with a reduction of € 300 p/m on his AOW. Do you think that's fair? Again, if he had not started living together, he would have been entitled to a full single AOW benefit for ever. For the record, I do not begrudge Hasan and his wife the supplementary allowance in any way.
I want to note 1 thing. The price level in Thailand is in some parts a lot higher than in the Netherlands. Let's start with health insurance.
Furthermore, a liter of milk here costs 43,5 baht against a rate of 35 baht, so more than 1,20 Euro.
Oh even the chicken here is comparable to the Netherlands and Germany at 2 euros per kilo.
In addition, it is a fact that the cover was set 15 years ago and I assume that there is also a country discount of 40%. That was established a long time ago at a rate of roughly 45 baht per Euro. Now that is a 35 bath with the chance that it will go to a 30 bath in the short term.
I have worked continuously in the Netherlands (and the rest of the EU) from the age of 20 to the age of 62.5. So they are 42,5 years old. With an extended AOW age to 75 years, many young people will not even make it.
Can I receive my inelg of paid AOW premium and my pension premium paid over 37,5 years immediately? Then you won't hear me and many complain anymore.
As Rob V already pointed out: You did not put in a penny for your AOW yourself, but only paid for the AOW tractors THEN under the expectation that you would receive your AOW in due course, paid by the taxpayers THEN. So if the AOW law is amended tomorrow and applies to the cost of living in the country of residence or even worse: only applies if the country of residence is the EU (because Blonde Dollie and the Boreal Owl seeker want to deprive the returning Turks and Moroccans of their AOW), has you no longer have anything besides your privately accrued pension.
Sjaak S, it's been a long time since 'mother the woman' did the housework and 'the master of the house' brought in the money. Not only are those roles often reversed now, the partner's theoretical earning capacity has been converted into actual, active duty for decades. Partners now also have, or may have, a pension, which is why the partner supplement in the AOW has been abolished for relationships in which the eldest was born in or after 1950.
The partner allowance still exists (on conditions) for older couples, but that will automatically disappear when this age group dies.
If someone chooses to look for a partner who has no income, he must pay for it himself. I think this is a logical step by the legislator.
I've also spent my entire working life paying child support for other people's children and I can think of a few more.
According to an article in the newspaper Trouw of January 22, 2018, a relatively large number of women work part-time. Worldwide, the Netherlands is in 31st place with an average working week for women, up to the age of 35, of 29 hours. Women often earn less than men in comparable positions. So your conclusion that the roles are now often reversed is incorrect. The changes with regard to cutting back on the AOW benefit, including the abolition of the partner supplement, are only based on austerity measures taken by the then cabinet, as a result of which today, especially with the increased starting date of the AOW, many have run into financial problems. In principle, no one chooses to live with a partner who has no income. Unfortunately, this is often the reality in Thailand. It escapes me that it is then a logical step that you will in fact receive a lifelong punishment discount of € 300,= p/m, in my opinion, while your partner will never be eligible for an AOW benefit from the Netherlands. Everyone is responsible for their own decisions and it is logical that you do not receive an allowance because you are going to live together in Thailand, but to be cut for this is in my opinion extremely unjust and an amendment to the law would be desirable.
How can it be said that “no one in principle chooses to live with a partner who has no income”? During the time that the relationship takes shape and they decide to live together, has it become clear that the partner has no income? Are you blind or deaf? If it turns out that the two of you can't make ends meet or have difficulty making ends meet, why don't you discuss it together? She can look for a job, or start her own one-man business, or work in the TH informal sector. Or come to the Netherlands and find work for her there, or if necessary, use social services and apply for housing and healthcare allowance. In any case: do something about your living conditions, be inventive, and make sure you can keep your own pants on.
Unfortunately, today's entry on Thailand Blog from questioner Hennie shows that he is indeed blind in one eye. And he did not have a choice for a more financially attractive partner, in fact he was forced to opt for informal care, where it is of course not impossible that they will get along well together and perhaps share a number of happy years together.
Am I glad that I have no income from the Netherlands. I still have my income from Germany and I also receive my pension from that country.
Nothing is cut. I don't get more because I would live alone and no less because I would live with a partner.
I've tried several times now to write something sensible here. Nothing comes to my mind. The logic continues to elude me. Well, it doesn't concern me any further. Something is seriously wrong with the Dutch system.
On the one hand, regardless of your living situation, it is not considered what your benefit will look like (i.e. when the mother country owes you money) and on the other hand, you must disclose your income and your partner's income when you owe you money and you can't afford it. Then suddenly your partner's income does count. And if this one has no work, you will also be told that he should go to work.
Something isn't right here somewhere.
What a nonsense reaction there are a lot of cases here where the spouse / partner has no income, but even then you get AOW as a married / cohabiting partner and that has been the case for years and is laid down by law.
In NL, state pension rights are accrued by the number of years that one has lived in NL. Whether people then worked and therefore invested money by the then state pension recipients … has zero influence
In the Netherlands, too, you receive less state pension if you are married or live together, regardless of whether that partner has an income of his/her own.
That changed a few years ago, when you received aow for 2 now the aow is personal and a good thing because in the Netherlands it is easier to check whether someone lives together than abroad.
You will indeed be cut if your partner also has a benefit or other income and that makes sense.
The AOW was set up in 1954, following the example of Bismarck around 1880, with the ideas of the time, which were hardly ever brought into the limelight, including the rising of the state pension age with the increase in the expected average age and health situation. Even spending that support in the Dutch economy has been forgotten.
The fact that some people decide to move to a country with a lower cost of living and even choose a partner who has no income (or any other fixed costs) is their own free choice. But why should your “neighbor = o.a. I”, contribute to the resulting money drain from the Dutch economy? I can just imagine that some parties (PVV and FVD, to squeeze many migrants) decide that AOW justice only exists if you live in the EU. Then you are completely out of luck as a resident of Thailand, as you are left with a private pension.
Harry Romijn, Denmark always did and still does. If you live outside the EU, you will lose your state pension. Or you must have lived in Denmark for 50 years. Do I want my Danish pension back, do I have to go back to the Netherlands or another EU country.
Well,
Fortunately, the latter is not permitted, even a reduction for state pensioners who reside outside the Netherlands may not be reduced (court ruling). Phew. Phew.
And if tomorrow in the 2nd and 1st Chamber a legislative amendment is adopted with reversed content, effective immediately, the day after tomorrow this court decision will be worth NOTHING anymore.
Ali, Faroek, Aisha and Fatima heavy the P in it, Blonde Dollie and the Boreal Owlcatcher fun, and you in TH.. collateral damage.
I want to note 1 thing. The price level in Thailand is in some parts a lot higher than in the Netherlands. Let's start with health insurance.
Furthermore, a liter of milk here costs 43,5 baht against a rate of 35 baht, so more than 1,20 Euro.
Oh even the chicken here is comparable to the Netherlands and Germany at 2 euros per kilo.
In addition, it is a fact that the cover was set 15 years ago and I assume that there is also a country discount of 40%. That was established a long time ago at a rate of roughly 45 baht per Euro. Now that is a 35 bath with the chance that it will go to a 30 bath in the short term.
I have worked continuously in the Netherlands (and the rest of the EU) from the age of 20 to the age of 62.5. So they are 42,5 years old. With an extended AOW age to 75 years, many young people will not even make it.
Can I receive my inelg of paid AOW premium and my pension premium paid over 37,5 years immediately? Then you won't hear me and many complain anymore.
Beats. Let's base the AOW supplement on the basis of the difference between a liter of NL semi-skimmed m,each and a kilo of TH chicken bones.
“start with health insurance”? I do not understand. In the Netherlands, from baby to dying, we pay approximately € 12 x 110/month + € 385 deductible + 6,9% of our income via the ZVV (see your AOW benefit slips, etc.) and the rest up to approximately € 95 BILLION) from the Large Communal Pot, also called the RIJKS Treasury. €95.000/17,1 = 5555 per head per year. Knowing that the elderly rely much more on care, they would not be surprised if, for example, a Thai (commercial) insurer - despite the much lower medical costs in TH and ... virtually no care for the elderly - also saves you € 6000 / year questions.
Price milk, chicken etc: with huge thanks to the extremely efficient farmers and food distribution in Europe.
THB 35/Euro ? I have heard NO ONE, when you got more than 50 THB for 1 €uro.
Country discount ? ? No, it's not included, just a net amount, wherever you live.
Coming out of retirement: can often,. AOW .. did you only pay for the recipients then.
But… you knew that when you made a well-considered choice for your old age in Thailand.
That discount is based on our Dutch system where there is a social safety net, completely illogical for Thailand. If they want to apply the same rules, they should also grant us Dutch health insurance or the same discounts on state pension tax.
Why should the NLe legislator take account of pensioners who will live in any country other than NL? Isn't it YOUR choice to live in another country, where the cost of living is also considerably lower than in NL? I already do not understand that the AOW is only based on the NLe cost of living, and that the country of residence principle does not apply.
Of course you can eat with the country kitchen and don't wish for Hema sausage, Calvé peanut butter, etc. every day.
As long as the rules and laws are not even the same in Europe, this seems even less important to me.
If you are going to live abroad, outside Europe, then you weigh the pros and cons and do not get the most out of it and let the inhabitants of the Netherlands work and pay for your pleasures
Yes, if you start living together or get married, your state pension will decrease by approximately € 300.=. Look on the SVB site how much.
40% discount via the country discount.
I've just been trying to figure that all out too.
You will be reduced on your AOW because you live together or are married, it does not matter
your pension has nothing to do with it that remains the same, my pension anyway
Apart from the fact that I get a sick feeling from some reactions, they also do not yet realize that there are different cases behind it. The rules for cohabitation in the Netherlands are more tolerable than those in Thailand. But nevertheless, if you've worked for 42 years like me and have to live with the limitations of your state pension and pension, I wonder what it's all good for. Loneliness among the elderly is becoming a problem in the Western world and regulations are perpetuating it.
The reaction of Sjaak S gives a good representation of the current issue in Thailand. The elderly take the initiative to give their lives a positive turn in a foreign country and that takes courage.
They also often provide a positive impulse to society here with modest means.
Children get better education, food and a better life. The average Thai woman often cannot earn more than Sjaak described in his contribution to this subject. And if she really earns much more, the Farang really does not come into the picture. Conclusion: outrageous to cut someone 600 euros because the desire of almost every human being is to share life with another and that is not a crime, but a necessity of life ...
“The rules for cohabitation in the Netherlands” have been in place since 1952, so roughly your year of birth. So you knew what you were getting into and what the consequences are. Straight = Straight, even though Straight is sometimes very straightforward. If you were going to live in NL with a younger person, so exactly the same necessity of life, you would also have been cut back on your state pension.
The AOW did not even exist in 1952.
Who has to live with limitations on state pension and pension? You get a sick feeling, you write, well that's what I get when I think about the fact that the 11 million elderly people in Thailand only receive 600 baht or a little more as old age provision, or that there are 30 million Thais with less than 10.000 baht income per month. And that you, as a farang, with a minimum mandatory income of 65.000 baht, go to live in Thailand of your own choice (!) and then complain that you fall under the system of the expensive Netherlands from which you receive your state pension and pension.
If I have worked for years and have built up my state pension and pension and to be able to give substance to my life from that amount, after forty years of work, will I also have to take into account a backward bureaucracy that will impose restrictions on me. And not just restrictions, but large chunks of my income I think I can recover. While I have already had to hand in a lot from working to not working.
After years of working and making my contribution, can I decide for myself where and with whom I spend my money and with whom I wake up. Apparently not.
Here too: “a backward bureaucracy that is going to impose restrictions on me”. No, a LAW, which was already submitted in 1952, and became law in 1954. So you knew what the limitations were.
You do not have to have worked for your AOW, the simple fact that you have lived in the Netherlands is sufficient to build up the right to AOW. The AOW benefit is individual, for single persons different from for cohabitants, so you will not be reduced if you start living together, but you will receive a different benefit. If the partner has accrued rights, they will receive their own individual benefit when they reach state pension age
Yep,
The same for me.
Live in NL just retired, and someone is registered at my home address.
So get "married" state pension, because I can't provide a contract that she is rented from me.
Received a higher ABP pension for the first month, because I reported my status as unmarried, but that was lowered, and everything was reclaimed retroactively, with a 10% repayment scheme.
When I asked why this was done, I received the answer that the SVB gives me a cohabiting old age pension.
Does she still have to write a letter that my “status” has not changed.
Henry,
Have you already asked the SVB to provide proof that you have a partner in Thailand.
I have experienced the same thing, SVB assumes that if a man lives in Thailand he also has a partner there (oh sir, you understand that anyway) No, so as long as they cannot provide evidence, you must demand that they reverse the case and retroactively reverse your reduced state pension. In the Netherlands it is still the case that you are innocent as long as the opposite has not been proven, despite the reactions of decency rascals to this blog from time to time.
SVB has very strange rules that are not covered by the law.
Even if they come to Thailand to check they do not let them in, even if they bluff that they have the right, because they do not have that because they do not have a work or exploration permit or they have to show a permit translated into Dutch with stamps from the Thai government, otherwise it is illegally obtained evidence.
Regards, Dick
If you start living together as a pensioner, the single person allowance will lapse. You will not actually be cut, because you will know this if you inform yourself sufficiently. The SVB site is full of them. The pension benefit remains the same.
For many years it has been assumed in NL that the partner has earning capacity. The fact that this power in TH does not yield much is irrelevant. Sjaak S makes a fallacy here. It is a person's own business whether he will live in NL or TH or wherever. Suppose a pensioner goes to live in Spain. He is going to live with a Spanish teacher who earns Eur 1250 per month. I don't think we hear him grumbling.
Suppose the partner is already retired: in addition to AOW, she receives a PfZW or ABP pension, for example. Together net Eur 1250. Even now we don't hear him complain.
The fact that you live in TH and that people in TH earn lower wages has nothing to do with the NL-AOW system. Another example: suppose you are retired, enjoy state pension and pension, and you come across a government official who pays ThB 40K p. mo earn? Aren't you going to shout from all the rooftops?
In other words: we here in NL don't have to "subsidize" those who have gone to live in TH with too little income / assets, do we? From our tax money? While all those pensioners in TH do their utmost to avoid the NL and/or TH tax burden? Come on now!
If you, as a sole earner, are going to live in TH with someone who has no income or assets of their own, realize that this is your own choice, decision and responsibility.
And again: inform yourself completely before leaving for TH. There are x-numerous sites full of information and explanations available. Thailandblog alone is full of it every month. Type the letters AOW in the empty white box at the top left, press: search, and a wealth of information will appear. Good luck.
RuudB, you write “While all those pensioners in TH are doing their utmost to escape the NL and/or TH tax burden themselves? Come on now!..”
Well, you dare to make a statement! Between 20 and 25.000 Dutch people live in Thailand and you suggest that you know the tax morale of all of them. I think that's very nice of you.
Generalizing is very easy. Substantiation is an art, RuudB, and you've failed at that so far. But come on, let's see substantiated figures.
Retirees in TH have a lot of headaches, and broadly speaking these go in 4 directions:
1- largely of the questions are about which tax solutions can be devised to make the most baht of a euro in Thailand;
2- most problems relating to living and residence in Thailand involve changing Immigration conditions and the related question of how advantageously it is possible to place the obtained baht on a bankbook, if necessary through marriage;
3- if Immigration's attitude is experienced as rigid or rigorous, it is suggested that moving to, for example, Laos/Cambodia is an absolute option, because a euro more or less guarantees security of residence there;
4- although TH makes it possible with a (minimum) income of ThB40K per month. To make residence possible, it is up to the Netherlands to increase that minimum.
The greatest common denominator is apparently that if NL is close to cohabitation, a “poverty-monger allowance” must be granted in TH.
The AOW rules apply to everyone, wherever you live.
As a single person you receive a Single AOW amount. If you are married, cohabiting or share a front door, you will receive several hundred euros less. When your partner also reaches retirement age, he/she will receive the same AOW amount as the partner already received. So half each. Together this is more than the single AOW. There is only 1!!!! To receive AOW you must have lived in the Netherlands! 40 years I believe. In this story, the gentleman is cut according to the applicable rules. Mrs. receives nothing because she has not lived in the Netherlands for 40 years. Not even if she also reaches state pension age.
It may not sound nice, but with the "shortened" old age pension of mister, at least 3 times as much can be done in Thailand than here in the Netherlands. The lady works for a salary that applies in Thailand. So in proportion to the purchasing power there! So I think that together they have a better standard of living than many elderly people living in NL.
Dear Hennie, it is no use calling the ABP. You have been reduced on your state pension, so you have to deal with the SVB.
You can appeal against this and insist that your partner is in your house to provide informal care to you in connection with your physical condition. Make it a sad story, possibly with a certificate from a Thai doctor.
A few years ago, the government determined that people with state pension who, for example, take in a child or otherwise, will no longer be reduced, as they can provide informal care. They assume that on balance this yields more than it costs.
Before there are any comments that argue against this, I speak from experience!
Good luck, Piotr.
And then we, NLe taxpayers, must be impressed by the tears of NLe pensionados in TH when they get caught with their deceit?
If neither Hennie nor partner is in need of care, which means that informal care must be provided, this recommendation is of no use. In addition: if SSO or SVB ever comes to check themselves, you can expect hefty fines.
So just screw things up?
I don't know, but I can work for that here in the Netherlands??
Do you think this is normal and justified?
Hello
I understood that we in the Netherlands have become emancipated, ie man is equal to woman. Anyone who retires at the age of 65 - 66 - or perhaps older - is entitled to 787 euros per person per month, for both men and women as soon as they reach their retirement age (except for the old cases), i.e. in our case. that we have to make do in the Netherlands with those 768 euros and the pension that my husband has built up until I am probably 67, and then I will also receive 787 euros.
Fortunately, we managed to get some money for old age in time, otherwise we had to go to the food bank.
The solution is quite simple.
Moving to Germany. then different rules apply. the discount will then not be withheld.
So much so that if people move from Germany to Thailand, the state pension and pension benefits via Germany will continue to apply in full. I am now figuring out through my accountant how it applies through Belgium and Luxembourg.
Dear rori, An AOWer living in Germany must also be careful whether he runs a household alone or with another person.
In the case of the second person, it makes little difference to the SVB, whether this is a legal marriage partner or someone who shares your household on a permanent basis.
Someone in the latter case is obliged to report this to the SVB, and, just like everywhere else, his AOW will be reduced, and if he fails to report, he will be sentenced.
Checks on the family and living situation can and are also carried out in Germany without prior announcements
If you are talking about the exemption from any "payroll tax costs", this only applies if you can clearly prove to the foreign tax authorities in Heerlen that you live permanently in your new country of residence and have no further property or obligations in the Netherlands. and you are only liable for tax in your new country of residence.
In answer to Henry's question...
this part of the ABP website.
You are already receiving a pension and are now getting married, living together or entering into a registered partnership. Then the benefit you now receive from ABP may be lower. This is due to a change in the AOW. The SVB will adjust your state pension from single to married/cohabiting. If you get married, register your partner, or start living together, you do not need to inform us. We receive this information from the municipality and the SVB. ABP will then adjust your payment. This only applies if pension was accrued with ABP before 1 January 1995.
There is an official SVB scheme for anyone who is not married and does not want to have their AOW pension reduced: the two-home scheme. The condition is therefore not to be married and to have your own house (or rent or usufruct) and to pay everything for that house yourself. In Thailand you can rent your own house or condo for 3000 baht, you have a rental contract in your own name, as well as electricity, etc. and you are registered with the amphur (municipality) at that address via, for example, the house book. For the latter you have to live there alone. And if your partner has his or her own home or rents, then you meet the two-home arrangement and you can prove this to SVB with supporting documents. Costs you about 100 Euro per month as I describe and saves you the discount of 300 Euro on your AOW. And you can live together all the time because you both have your own home.
If you have some money left, you can also buy your own house on leased land. Every year, the house and land are worth more than interest on the bank. If that is your official residential address, you live there alone, your girl at her own address. Not a rooster crowing about it.
I bought a piece of land for my girl, leased it back and put a house on it. There I keep my personal belongings from the past and I still have my own place. I'm hardly ever there but that was not the intention. Is fully furnished so if I go out of my way she can rent it out.
And if there are sneaky ones who betray you at the SVB, all these reactions make it clear that there is quite a bit of jealousy and resentment, then you do indeed fall under the two-home scheme, completely legal.
An additional advantage is that if you go out, you leave a nice gift for your girl.
I have the same problem. As a widower I lived alone, but that became more and more difficult as you got older. In addition, I have had a heart condition for more than a year, which does not make things any easier. I found a solution: a live-in housekeeper/caretaker. He has to live somewhere, but because I have a spacious house with a corresponding bathroom, that problem seemed solved. Finally, I can also get serious complaints at night. She has her own room with bathroom and I have mine, but in case of emergency I can call or call her.
But no: according to the SVB (Asocial insurance bank) I now have a (marital) relationship and am therefore being cut. The ABP hears that and briefly too. We have all paid for the state pension for a large part of our lives, but paying it is another matter. Why can't I have my own money? No, the Dutch government has to get involved in everything and I always have to tell them that I'm still alive (they probably don't like that) and how I manage in my old age.
My late father has calculated complicated premiums for a life insurance policy all his life and he is now in his fifties: you will never get that back. He then calculated that he had to live to be 126 years old to get that back.
I also have a small allowance from the English Old Age Pension OAP. They pay monthly and never ask if you are still alive and do not need to know what you do with your money. That is also a lot easier and cheaper in terms of administration costs!
Let me think a moment .
300 euros are around 10.000 baht now.
Are you married or living together?
You rent a very cheap house nearby
for around 2500 baht (easy to get in Isaan)
and register there.
Then you officially live alone and your eye is not cut short .
You can continue to sleep with your wife , but you do not live there !
Saves 7500 baht per month and if you have a fight with your partner,
Do you have your own place right?
PS – does not work with a marriage visa !
Only if your retirement is based on 800,000 baht!
The Dutch government is cowardly. And not a little too.
Why? Then I'll explain.
Millions of euros in child benefits flow to Morocco and Turkey.
I want to see which Dutch government can show the guts to stop child benefit to these countries.
If they try, you'll get the puppets to dance. Because then the Netherlands will play with fire.
So it will only be talking and no further.
The Netherlands also does not dare to exclude economic refugees. If they do, they will get the wind (say hurricane) from the front. So that's where the guts are missing again.
It goes so far that these economic refugees get free room and board here, while their own home seekers are yawning.
Now our foreign state pensioners.
I want to see which AOW pensioners will take the stage to claim their rights. That will never happen. And the cowardly Dutch politicians know that very well.
So the vulnerable elderly are being victimized by these leaders. Cowardly cowardly than this does not exist.
My (dream) solution would be to give every Dutch pensioner living abroad the same treatment as the economic refugees who are welcomed with open arms by this cowardly government.
If not, the Dutch health insurance will also apply to state pensioners abroad.
But this cowardly government doesn't dare, so….
They prefer to pump money for the reception of economic refugees and turn on the money tap for child benefit to our Arabic-speaking countries.
Bravo Netherlands!!!
Most child benefit goes to Poland and our neighboring countries.
“The largest amount goes to Poland. Last year, 16,1 million euros in child benefit was paid there. Belgium (7,8 million euros), Germany (7,8 million euros), Morocco (2,9 million euros) and the United States (959 thousand euros) are also in the top five.”
Source:
https://www.nu.nl/geldzaken/4246257/vorig-jaar-412-miljoen-euro-kinderbijslag-in-buitenland-uitgekeerd.html
Or do you want to pay child benefit based on which country? Or just abolish it completely for every foreign country? Et also goes child support to Thailand. But because there are fewer Dutch-Thai families, this is a lot lower in euros.
Economic refugees are not granted asylum in the Netherlands, because there is no valid reason for asylum. That is why 99% of the Moroccans who apply for asylum are sent back. Proven political refugee, war and all that is. Take a look at ind.nl or read the news. That free board and lodging is also nonsense, but people keep proclaiming that nonsense too. I keep repeating myself:
- https://www.thailandblog.nl/expats-en-pensionado/pvv-grootste-partij-nederlanders-thailand/#comment-473585
– earlier this year but can't find it 1-2-3.
I would say, write to parties, vote, join a party, etc. and suggest an increase in the state pension, healthcare allowance, aggregation of child benefit (abroad?) and so on. If the majority of the Netherlands is not against this (take into account tax increases to finance everything) then you can have your way. However, please be open to the facts and figures instead of pointing your gut at 'the Arabs'.
chander,
'Millions of Euros in child benefits flow to Morocco and Turkey.'
That has already been reduced by 60% in recent years. The other 40% was not allowed by the court. The Netherlands is a constitutional state.
'The Netherlands also does not dare to keep out economic refugees'.
They are all returned. That can take some time and sometimes it is difficult to separate real from economic refugees (about fifty-fifty).
Period 2014-2016 number of asylum applications 82.000; granted 47.000; in proceedings 10.000; not granted 25.000 –
Since 2000, between 30 and 70 percent is returned.
Actually, all those expats in Thailand are also a serious threat to the beautiful Thai culture. They drive up house prices, prevent Thais from accessing health care and cost Thai society millions of baht.
A number of cases mentioned here are indeed not against the law (illegal) but against the purport of the law. It's a bit like the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance.
I don't understand why people who have little or no moral sense don't choose a much easier path in Thailand. Instead of renting a place for yourself with a toothbrush in the bathroom, you simply adopt 3, 4 or 5 children from poor parents in the village. They get your family name and are now legally your children. They continue to live with their own parents, but are now visiting every day. Can be done very easily in Thailand. You give the parents a few pocket money per month (to quote Freek de Jonge: 'if I have nothing, I take everything') and collect the child benefit from the Netherlands yourself, about 260-325 euros per quarter.
And to top it all off, adopt a girl around 16-17 years old and get her married within a couple. YOU determine the sin-sod and iron it on of course. All permitted by law. And so you easily have (at least) the 800000 Baht on your account that you need for your marriage visa.
For a marriage visa, 400.000 baht is required and you can forget about Dutch child benefit.
Marry a civil servant with a reasonable salary and the pain of the discount is immediately a lot less. In addition, health insurance is no longer a major problem, since it is also arranged for supporters.
Having a government job with mostly low pay is rather seen as an investment in the future when bad luck or old age strikes.
And the government gets a loyal, monarchist group in return, so it's kind of a win-win.
As already mentioned, the ABP pension also depends on the AOW status. The ABP is (as far as I know) the only pension fund where this applies. This is also stated on the universal pension overview that you receive as a pensioner from ABP:
“Your benefit can still change due to:
– change in your marital status or AOW entitlement”
So if the AOW status changes from single to cohabiting, the ABP pension (if accrued before 1-Jan-1995) will be reduced.
The comments above state that living together in a home automatically means that you are considered cohabiting by the SVB for the AOW and are therefore no longer entitled to the unmarried AOW pension. But as can be read in the link below, living together must meet certain conditions:
https://www.svb.nl/int/nl/aow/wonen_met_iemand_anders/samen_wonen/
The SINGLE fact that someone lives together is therefore no valid proof that there is no longer any entitlement to the unmarried AOW pension. If, for example, the person with whom someone lives does not contribute (to any extent) to the household (by outsourcing most household tasks, for example) and also does not contribute to the costs of the household, then one is still entitled to the unmarried AOW pension! This applies both in the Netherlands and in Thailand!
From a number of responses to Thailandblog, it seems to me that the SVB sometimes acts arbitrarily and unlawfully from a position of power. A very poignant and sad example of this can be read on Thailandblog via link:
https://www.thailandblog.nl/lezers-inzending/lezersinzending-nederland-sociaal-nee-de-4e-macht-heerst/
With regard to paying tax: if you live in Thailand as a pensioner, you generally pay LESS tax than in the Netherlands. But a number of things remain taxable in the Netherlands (such as AOW, ABP state pension, annuity payments) so also pensioners in Thailand still pay tax in the Netherlands! In contrast to paying less tax, people living in Thailand are no longer entitled to or can no longer use a large number of facilities that are (partly) paid for by the government in the Netherlands (such as health care facilities). I therefore don't think paying less tax is unfair as stated in a number of comments above and the comment "get the currants out of the porridge" makes no sense!
Gerard, you hit the nail on the head! I wanted to name it myself, but my responses were already very extensive. Your response is crystal clear and to the point.
I know some Dutch people who live here with their Thai girlfriend. Yet that Thai friend officially lives with her parents. Now I understand why people do it that way.
That's not the only reason.
Thais remain registered in their place of birth unless there are urgent reasons to change that. Unlike in the Netherlands, Thais hardly receive any mail from the government, etc.
For example, my girl has been married to a Thai for 4 years in the past and has gone to live with her parents-in-law. But her official residential address has never changed.
Her sister has been living and working in Bangkok for 15 years, but officially still at her birthplaces.
Her brother has also been living elsewhere for 12 years, but officially still at the birth address.
No one has paid for his own state pension, because he/she has paid at most, for those who already enjoyed it during their own work.
Various applications have been introduced to protect the current generation, which now has to pay for the current AOWer, against the ever-increasing costs that are attacking an increasing number of AOW recipients.
One of these applications is the discount on state pension in the event of cohabitation.
However unfair this discount may seem, where I also had to swallow a bit myself, this discount is not only in the Netherlands and Thailand, but worldwide.
In the Netherlands and other socially/economically better off countries, this discount is often absorbed by a partner who has a better income or a pension himself.
It is of course different in a country, where wages are a lot lower, and social provisions are in no way comparable to most countries in Europe.
Should the current generation, which already has to pay due to the rising number of state pensioners, still have to play for a world social insurance system, which absorbs all starvation wages and missing pensions?