In various articles and reactions/experiences from readers on Thailandblog, it has become clear that Immigration imposes different income requirements on pensioners. The question was raised whether it is still possible for this group to go or stay in Thailand?
Immigration's checks on those requirements that pull the strings feed them into thinking and feeling less and less welcome in Thailand. But the question is whether only Immigration can and may determine whether Thailand is suitable for you? There are other processes going on that mean that staying or coming to live in Thailand should be less self-evident for retirees.
Is Thailand still so welcome to you? A reverse question.
Because what are those processes? It should be clear that Thailand has not become more democratic politically in recent years. May 2014: 5 years ago a legally elected government was overthrown and a junta took its place. In the years that followed, this junta wrote a new constitution, issued various organic laws based on that constitution, and thus determined, among other things, the composition of the Senate and retained control over that of the parliament. Since these years, it has been the junta that dominates society and everyday life.
The results of the elections held at the end of March have not proved favorable to the junta. The Bangkok Post and other media have been reporting for some time how institutions in Thailand do not exactly promote democratic processes. Anti-junta parties are not given coalition opportunities and the FFP in particular has run into heavy weather.
But if other parties don't get a chance and the junta has its way again: is Thailand still a country where you can live (go and stay) carefree? Is living permanently in a country with a semi-dictatorial regime a welcome country for you?
Submitted by Ruud
Yes, I still haven't understood why I should stay away from Thailand now. Do I come for the form of government or for the country? For the people? And now for my wife and house?
As long as I'm left alone, I won't care who's in power here. Before the junta it wasn't much better in my eyes either. On the contrary, things are now being addressed.l
It's better than an elected government that just messes around.
Yes, the army knows how to get things done, and as long as you keep a tight line and keep your mouth shut, you have nothing to fear. Don't forget that we are guests here. That your neighbor gets a home visit from the military and has to go to a re-education camp if he is such an annoying person who protests against the government, that's part of it. That while you get off the bus a few meters from the court (because of an accusation of sedition or the like) you get a piece of wood in your neck, is part of it. Thailand is a very nice country, where you can live wonderfully As long as you don't interfere with politics & human rights. 🙂 Peace and order, that's what we do it for.
I sense a hint of sarcasm?
Just a wee bit. 55 (no, well seen. Was on top of it)
I don't know a neighbor that happened to. And the fact that you shouldn't talk too much about politics, or rather express criticism, has not happened recently since the takeover of power by the junta. That was before. Then you should never have gone to Thailand, so to speak. I've been coming to Thailand since I was 23 and it's a country that has more expression than a Singapore, Malaysia or Indonesia.
The military provided more peace than any civilian government. Was it so democratic? It was mainly boyfriend and family politics and the army put an end to that, didn't it?
Dear Jack,
I regularly try to get my wife's opinion on the political situation in Thailand, but I can't. She is silent when it comes to those in power. She does have an opinion, but she is silent. Sometimes she makes it clear by stroking her lips with her hand for a long time. Fear, that's what those in power are all about. As soon as fear falls away, the base of the ruler is also gone. Thailand is a country where you have to be careful what you say.
Under Phue Thai and Thai Rak Thai, the army did not visit opponents or send you to re-education camps…
Nor has the nepotism changed, the generals give jobs and contracts to their family and friends:
- https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/1675496/senate-post-for-pm-brother-not-a-problem-says-prawit
- https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/?s=Nepotism
And sjaak if you have lived here for 10 years, for example
Has anything changed
Whether the police or the army corrupt
Is
Yes ok and now
Can you no longer tell yourself what you think as a journalist, for example
Or disagree with our prhahut or something
Elections are really a power issue here
Has nothing to do with elections
Our ( dear general ) has arranged it really well for him and son
Friends
And yes, his money is also secured
Yes his wife
But again I don't care
From a Dutch point of view I understand your attitude, but the question is whether you can copy it one on one.
You will understand it and am curious about the re-education camps. Is it comparable to what happened in Chile and Argentina?
Under mr. T, assassination squads were active to shoot about 2500 people. This was sent from the local police and the strange thing is, this can't relate to the situation that is now being proposed where I never saw the evidence?
About attitude entertainment camps: there, people who criticize the junta (extremists who hammer on bizarre things like 'human rights' and 'democracy') have been re-educated about 800 people (an average of 50 per month). Soma blindfolded, sometimes with stories of being groped or threatened by men in uniform. A good conversation mafiosi style.
- https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2015/09/20/attitude-and-adjustment/
- https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2017/12/05/no-criticism/
But oh well in the Netherlands it is not a rose scent and moonshine either, we are even just weak. If Rutte had balls, he would have his opponents lifted from their beds at night for a conversation at the local office or barracks. If you just keep your mouth shut in Thailand, it's not all that bad...
This thaipoliticalprisoners website has published so much nonsense and untruths in recent years that I no longer read it because the information is not reliable. Much is taken from Andrew McGregor Marshall who also tells a lot of nonsense (but has to live from it).
Many truths? Come on now. Chris often mentions the source, a wide range. From Khaosod and Bangkok Post to newspapers from Asia, Europe and the US. Yes, also freelance journalists including Andrew (who also provides sources, although that is not possible when it comes to Mr. X and his family, you rarely can do that with your special connections). Further references to research reports from universities and organizations on human rights, democracy, etc. That does not mean that they will always be right, but neither can the 'quality media'. The picture that emerges is clear: Thailand has many problems.
Criticism of specific posts is fine, but substantiate it with sources. The military home visits are a fact, the re-education lessons are a fact, the intimidation and oppression by the army is a fact. That cannot be denied.
Dear Sjaak, you write that things are now also being addressed. What things then, I thought to myself. Would health care for the Thai population have improved or would the gap between rich and poor have narrowed? The state hospitals are overflowing and although the minimum wage has been raised, so have the prices of everyday products. Maybe a better school education for the youth? But I read on Thailand Blog last week that many parents had to go into debt before the start of the new school year and that the curriculum is still not much and certainly not at the point of learning the English language . Has the population in northern Thailand been relieved of the smog problem? According to reports also on this Blog, that problem has only grown, although the surrounding countries of Thailand also contribute to it. Has work been done on the infrastructure with regard to water management so that parts of Bangkok and Pattaya, for example, no longer flood during a heavy rain shower? In April, some streets in Pattaya had more than 1 meter of water. Actually, I did not remember 1, 2, 3 what the current rulers have done for the well-being of their population. The intention to purchase 3 submarines for an amount of 36 billion Baht only came to my mind, but I doubt whether the population was waiting for that. At first glance, it is quieter on the street because of the ban on demonstrations. Hopefully not the calm before the storm. But I don't think much has been done yet, but political opponents have been arrested and Thai citizens run a great risk of being arrested if they express public criticism. As a foreigner living in Thailand, you actually have no influence whatsoever on government policy and I fully understand that when you are in Thailand, you want to stay there. Closing your eyes and claiming that the current rulers would do a better job than a government elected by the Thai people is something else.
You're probably right. I do see that in Bangkok, for example, street traders had to leave their doorsteps, I see that the railway line to the south is being improved on a large scale. I see tougher action being taken against foreigners who believe they are flouting the law here.
Of course there are things that could be better, or maybe worse… but that is not the sign of a military regime, that is with every new regime. Who do you let choose in a democracy anyway? In a country where 80% of the population (don't quote me on the percentage, but it's quite large) has little awareness of politics and is happy to live one day at a time. Are you going to let those people influence what happens in Thailand? Sorry, not everyone is fit to vote (including me). To be honest, I'm not even a big proponent of democracy. That does not mean that I am now in favor of a dictatorship, where people are arbitrarily arrested. I don't think a father is wrong who governs his people with thought and reason. That you can't always interfere with it is something else. An open ear would also be good. But democracy? In Thailand…. no, I don't think that would be a good solution.
The chicken and the egg? Why are so many Thais trying to survive? Why is the inequality between rich and poor annoyances between the number 1 and 3 in the world? Could that not be partly because a few wealthy families, together with certain clubs in the army, keep their finger in the pie? The assets and the power? And shouting at the ordinary Thai that being stupid buffaloes and democracy would not be appropriate? In my opinion, with such a look you look down on the Thai people and you look away from the disgusting practices of the grabbers / rulers at the top.
In my opinion, with such an oversimplified opinion, you should re-establish the Communist Party of the Netherlands, with a branch in Thailand.
You do have a sense of humour. Insinuating that I am a communist… Communism doesn't work, nice idea but in practice it can only be achieved on a national scale by coercion (and not even that).
How so, unnuanced? I ask whether it is the chicken or the egg that the Thai people in the provinces have 'no time for conversations about politics/democracy' and spend so much energy just trying to make ends meet (few rights, resources enforceable, practically no organized safety net and all those other nasty things we know in Europe) while at the top a clique of the rich have the lion's share of the power, influence, money and such pleasures. Many people there are not waiting for interference from the plebs. I think those inequalities are a fact? And then I wonder what role lack of democracy and human rights plays in this.
I think the period before the coupe made no difference. Back then, the grabbers didn't have army ranks, but they did it just as hard.
What did they present to the population during that period? Even then, Bangkok was flooded and the streets in Pattaya were flooded when there was a heavy rain shower.
Even then the police were kind enough to make our tickets bearable for lower amounts 😉
Now one regularly sees on television how big bobos are arrested for corruption.
I am not in favor of a dictatorship, but I am in favor of peace and order, and that is what prevails at the moment. Unfortunately, the Thai is not very democratic, as the time before the coupe has shown.
How to do it I have no solution for that, but when I travel through the country I feel safe and I don't see military checkpoints everywhere. And I have never seen a neighbor being picked up by the military for a chat, while I live in an area where (old) red supporters generally live.
Jack, I'm amazed at your response. You want to limit the right to vote to a select group of citizens because you assume that most of the rest are too stupid for that and therefore you want to limit their civil rights. And who do you think should vote? Well-to-do or after taking an exam? In a number of republics in Africa there was and still is a 'father figure' invented by you. His decades in power, the people impoverished and starved while those in power and their loved ones basked in the wealth of billions in foreign accounts. Don't waste any more words on it. Incidentally, in a number of African states, foreigners were kicked out after their property was confiscated. Hopefully that won't happen in Thailand.
Democracy is a bad form of government, but the best one I've ever read (just about).
You may be amazed at my reaction, that is why I also write that I should not have the right to vote, because I belong to those "stupid people" who don't know a thing about it. And to be honest, I don't feel like it either.
What you quote is of course true, in Africa it was abused. But here too: Thailand is not Africa and it is not South America or Europe… it is an Asian country and the mentality here is already very different.
You cannot have the same political structure in every country. Then people should be different too. What currently applies in the Netherlands may never apply to Thailand. We look at ourselves again and again and decide that it is best for others, if only because we are doing well.
However, is that really the case? In the end, it's all about the results, isn't it?
Every person wants wealth or at least a carefree life. But is that so good? Often people with the fewest goods are the most satisfied people. Know your limit. Families who have to get by with 9000 baht or less are often happier than others who have 90.000 or 900.000 baht a month.
Look at Europe, where, compared to Thailand, most of them are doing well to very well. How great is the political unrest there? How do you complain and whine?
That is already a mentality difference. Now you have a different upbringing in the Netherlands, at home and at school. We were brought up more liberally. At school, as a student you receive a kind of political education. In my day: history classes, civics, and even our religion classes, everything was talked about except Jesus and the Church.
You have access to newspapers and a lot of information.
Well here in Thailand…. should I still write that?
The people are guided by what the neighbor says, there is no well-founded knowledge about political parties and most people are not interested.
Then those people should vote? They are not stupid people, but they are people who have no interest and no knowledge. How do you want to be able to make a well-founded choice there?
I also don't think it's that easy to write: then this or that has to be done to get the right people to choose. And by right I don't mean people who have a certain way of thinking, but people who have knowledge. If that group is large enough, you will also be able to get a good result, I think.
Better than people like me, who don't know anything and don't want to know who's in that government, vote for some idiot, or vote for that one dangerous person who will lead us to damnation.
And do you ask whether we can still live here carefree? Well, we know in advance that we are not going to live in the Netherlands, anywhere. Whether you are going to live in Cambodia or China, South America or Canada… you never know what awaits you.
When I first came to Singapore almost 40 years ago, I thought that city was so beautiful and especially so cheap that I really wanted to live there. I couldn't imagine living there now. Too expensive and too many rules.
In contrast, Thailand has changed little. More developed than 40 years ago, but still standing in many areas….
I don't know what awaits in the future. That's what I built my plans on. Not spread out over 30 years, but between 1 and 5 years and then we will see further…
unconcerned? Then one should not think about politics, circumstances, future or environment… and apart from politics there is enough around us here not to live so carefree.
I have the choice between NL and TH, I am NL and my wife is TH.
We lived, worked and saved together in NL for 20 years.
So my wife has a good right to want to spend her last years in TH and I have no problem with that myself. I just swim with the flow and in the 8 years that I have lived here, I have never had any problems with any authority or anyone.
I like living here, just like in NL.
NL may be more “democratic”, but there are also many political decisions that I as a person do not support.
The Netherlands is democratic in name, but the power and decision-making power lies with a selective group of people who think they know better than the kl..tjesvolk, but in the end it is only about filling their own pockets.
What is the essential difference between the Netherlands and Thailand????
Dear Peter,
The Netherlands is also getting more and more traits of communism,
very disadvantageous but maybe a little right is not so bad.
It's all about power, left or right.
Yours faithfully,
Erwin
Peter, democracy is a form of government in which the people themselves vote on laws or elect the representatives who make the laws. As a result, not everyone is served what they want and an increasing number of citizens also feel excluded in the Netherlands. My advice to those people is to join a political party of your persuasion and don't swear on the sidelines. Moreover, there is a separation between the legislature and the executive and citizens in the Netherlands do not end up before a military court. Freedom of expression is also a great asset in the Netherlands. Perhaps that is precisely why it sometimes seems to work against democracy, but citizens and journalists need not be afraid of ending up behind bars or being imprisoned in an internment camp just for expressing their opinion, as in so many other countries in the world. the world is the case and in recent years also in Thailand. That is an essential difference between the Netherlands and Thailand. Many years ago I fell in love with the country when I first got acquainted with Thailand. For that reason alone it is always a pleasure for me to travel to Thailand and of course also because I live with my Thai partner. I will therefore continue to go to Thailand, but although love is blind, I really see that the Thai people still have a long way to go before there is a real democracy. I am glad that I have Dutch nationality and can therefore enjoy many benefits.
How long have you been away from the Netherlands and do you no longer read any news? How much right of expression do native Dutch people still have?
Apart from corrupt and incapable politicians, the Dutch people still have the very big disadvantage of the all-dominant Brussels that determine what happens to the Netherlands and why is that possible? because some super rich are playing a very dirty game.
Thailand is by no means perfect, but you cannot come up with a single point on which the Netherlands is better than Thailand, except for our pension, although that is gradually becoming less and less in proportion. No, I don't have rose colored glasses and I'm very realistic.
In the Netherlands, everyone has the same right to express their opinion, as stated in the constitution (article 1, etc.). So the native may shout from the rooftops just as loudly as someone who himself or whose parent was born across the border. Think, for example, of the Yellow Vests or various demonstrations in The Hague. You don't have to cop in Thailand, not as a native Thai and not at all as someone with foreign roots or an actual foreigner.
Brussels does not have much in the milk to crumble, most of the legislation is determined in The Hague. And what is bound by European agreements. How did Brussels come about? Precisely through your vote during the elections for the EU parliament. And the other players in The Hague are indirectly appointed by the Dutch people and so on, because you choose a party for the House of Representatives in the Netherlands. The government that is created democratically then chooses the delegation to Brussels. So democratic, although there are all sorts of things that can be done to improve things further.
The disadvantage of Brussels is of course that you also have to deal with what the rest of Europe thinks. But that happens on a smaller scale. For example, your municipality may be against policy X (construction of a road or something), but if the province or the state want it.. then you will have to deal with the 'all-predominant' province and state. Your street can be against plan Y, but like the rest of your municipality.
If we look at Thailand, we also see the interfering Bangkok that imposes its will on the provinces. Not everyone is happy about that. So there are also calls for more power and freedom to be given to lower levels of government. Doesn't seem like a bad idea for both NL and TH to me. Everything at the lowest possible level. If something transcends the level, you move up a level in the board. In this way, the citizen, whether Thai or Dutch, has more grip and bond with the decisions.
The Netherlands is really doing a bit better than Thailand in all areas, from independent judiciary access to justice, the environment, freedom of expression, education, happiness and so on and so forth. The Netherlands has shortcomings, but together with Scandinavia we are in all the top 10 lists in the world. Thailand by no means. So maybe Thailand can look at the top 10 countries in all kinds of areas and do something with it. Would do the Thai people a lot of good, but the pocket-filling rulers at the Thai top a lot less. So it won't happen today or tomorrow.
I live here and will continue to live here.
I can see that there is dissatisfaction among the people.
We will have to wait and see whether this will lead to unrest and uprisings.
But since I live in a village, I will miss most of the unrest, which is more likely to occur in large cities.
It is of course possible that things like electricity, internet and telephony will fail, to make communication more difficult for dissatisfied people.
And if things really get out of hand, foreigners may be deported, but I don't think it will be that fast.
Moderator: Unreadable due to too many writing errors and/or missing or incorrect use of punctuation marks. So not posted.
People who claim that the Netherlands is democratic apparently do not know how things are done in the Netherlands. The increase in VAT by 3% may have been approved by the majority of the second chamber because of the coalition agreement, but it is certainly not democratic. If the majority of the population would be in favor of the VAT increase, you could say that it is a democratic decision. However, if members of parliament have to adhere to the coalition agreement, then these members of parliament are nothing but cattle and that is far from democratic. In a real democracy, a member of parliament votes in good conscience and without consultation with anyone. What Rutte's cabinets are doing is not much different from what the junta is doing in Thailand, namely pushing their way against the will of the population. Because you really can't fool me into thinking that the majority of the Dutch people wanted this VAT increase and certainly not now that that money is going to the business community. Ed that at a time when more and more people are dependent on the food banks. That is how (a)social the Netherlands is.
If, after months of negotiations between the potential coalition partners, a compromise is negotiated, how the Great Common Pot, also called the National Treasury, should be filled given the costs of all wishes, ALL NL people will never be satisfied with that. In Venezuela we have seen where unlimited Sinterklaas, Santa Claus and Easter Bunny play, with the companies next to it = the places where the incomes for all people are earned, leads to bullying out of the country.
Promising a lot and not being able to give anything... we saw yesterday at the PVV where that leads: ZERO seats.
Dear readers,
I have been living in Thailand for almost 20 years now, and have seen those scammers family of Thaksin Shinawatra in power, he and his followers were just filling their own pockets, and have done no good for the country!!!
They have only pushed beautiful Thailand deeper into debt and trouble.
I think that when the Junta is in power, everything is better arranged, but there are also idiots who think that the weak euro is due to the Junta, well that we are currently getting less baht for our euro is certainly not due to the Junta.
The rules and laws are now being observed a bit more strongly, so people who ride crooked skates will have problems in the future.
But Thailand is still a cheap and beautiful country to live in for us Westerners.
If you have an AOW+ pension of about 1600 euros per month, you can live better here than in the Netherlands on this money.
But you can't lie in the bars every day, but you can't do that in the Netherlands with that money either.
If you lived like this in Thailand, how you live in the Netherlands with the small difference that the weather is almost always nice here, then the choice is easily made, isn't it?
MVG
Jos
Sorry Josh,
Did I miss anything?
How do the Thai get the 30 baht scheme in health care?
This certainly comes from the current rulers, or am I mistaken?
That's right Sander
and Jos who arranged the new airport and the BTS
I'm not a fan of the person you mention but he certainly didn't push Thailand to the abyss.
He asked 1000 b from people but only paid back 200 baht, from the rest he made a telephone marketing like AIs and after selling that he bought a football club in England.
Sorry Josh Bis,
And the increase in the minimum wage in 2011 from ฿215 to ฿300 (= +40%)?
https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/minimum-wages
But I agree with you that Thaksin is not a democrat and only entered politics to eventually line his own pockets. That was and is the prevailing political culture in Thailand.
"And the strong bath is entirely the fault of the junta."
'Their submarines, other military equipment and also their big dreams (see Charly's report) in connection with the development of the country must be paid for.'
Dear Dylan, what does "the strong bath" have to do with the said expenses?
@Jos, when Thaksin Shinawatra came to power, Thailand was up to her ears in debt to the IMF. Thaksin made sure that debt was paid back to the IMF in 2,5-two and a half years. He also took care of the 30 Baht healthcare system. OTOP also came from him. All Thais owning a home came from him. From each Tambon a student was allowed to study abroad at the expense of the Government and there were many more things. What killed him was that he disagreed with the inventor of the self-sufficiency theory.
Correct, theos. Thaksin did some very nasty things, such as fomenting the conflict in the Deep South, promoting the 'War on Drugs' and obstructing the media. But he also did some good things.
Thaksin is sometimes accused of becoming richer through corruption, after all, his wealth doubled between 2001 and 2006. But that was because his wealth was mainly in shares, which doubled their value in those 5 years.
Well, well, just a little while and Thaksin is the resurrection of Mother Teresa. That man is more wrong than wrong, ordered murders and therefore has blood on his hands.
Come on, Peter. I name that blood on Thaksin's hands and then it's not good again. Shall I mention the names of other Thais who also have blood on their hands and are honored anyway? OK, a stupid argument.
Do you understand why Thaksin has been indicted on so many counts, and convicted on one count, but never charged for all that blood on his hands in the 'War on Drugs'? That is because 80% of the population and almost the entire elite were very satisfied with that. But it was a crime.
Promoting that “war on drugs” has, if I remember correctly, left about 2.500 dead POSSIBLE drug dealers.
No one knows how many of them were really drug dealers.
I wouldn't call that "annoying", but give it a license for murder.
You're right, rud. The word annoying is way too weak. Criminal is better as I wrote in my reply to Peter.
Quote:
"What the Rutte cabinets are doing is not much different from what the junta is doing in Thailand, namely pushing their way against the will of the population."
Yes that is true! But you can't say that out loud in Thailand/
Why would Thailand suddenly be less safe to live in? That Thailand has a military government has been the case for years. Thailand may not be so democratic? Or maybe not at all. But the Netherlands is not really democratic either. But I officially live here from June 2009 and have until now.Never had the feeling that I would not be welcom.So far everything is going well and as desired.I respect the Thai people and I respect the law.I agree here just like in the Netherlands. Not agree with everything. but I am a guest here so I don't interfere with that and just abide by the applicable laws of this country and its culture. I'm still having a good time here. So far I don't feel the need to return to the Netherlands. If I had to, it would be very annoying. No housing. Waiting lists from Bangkok to Amsterdam. not with the tax authorities because in a little while I will be here officially for 10 years. So a return in that regard would not cause any problems. Got as an ant that I should sleep under the bridge or something for a long time or at the Salvation Army. But then you roam around during the day. So in my poor physical condition, no thank you. I will stay in Thailand and I hope that may be the case for many years to come. And then when the time has come, I escape with the speed of a rocket. That would be the best, but you don't have that entirely in your own hands.
Why is the political system in the Netherlands used to justify the behavior of dictators in other countries, read Thailand?
The facts mentioned by the contributor are certainly recognisable. However, I don't worry about that at all.
The junta government can of course hardly be called democratic, but so what. All that posturing that everything is so democratic in Europe and the US is of course completely untrue. At most, those in power in those countries will manage to pour a more democratic sauce on their implementation.
The junta could be a bit more adept at that.
But as long as the junta is in power, things are quiet in Thailand. So let it stay that way.
For me at least no reason to say goodbye to Thailand.
I have been living in Thailand continuously for 8 years now.
Before in Belgium.
In my home country I have always followed politics with great interest, both nationally and internationally.
I now also have that interest in Thai politics .
It is therefore with sadness that I watched the military coup!
Many democratically acquired freedoms were taken away from citizens.
A General who suddenly calls himself Prime Minister underlines the lack of understanding of what we Westerners call “Democracy”.
And this is precisely the essence & the answer to the question!
If I look at Thai society from my " Western view of Democracy " , then this makes me unhappy and often angry !
So much injustice and oppression.
So much grabbing from “the Elite”!
Do I leave Thailand for that?
Not for the time being ... but that social injustice, I have a hard time with that!
Dear Martin,
Although I don't think your VAT story is the best example, you are absolutely right.
Democracy is also hard to find in NLD. The government (under pressure from the business community) also does exactly what suits it best. As long as the citizen keeps his mouth shut, everything goes well, but woe betide if that same citizen stirs. Then the turnips are cooked.
When the Dutch vote en masse in a referendum, the government ignores it. When elections show dissatisfaction, the political elite gets away with it by forcing traditional parties to cooperate so that power remains with the same club. And finally, the government often makes promises that it ignores as soon as it no longer comes true.
Deceit and deceit on a grand scale.
Thailand has a culture where these things are more visible than in NLD. The regularly recurring unrest between “yellow” and “red” does little good for the country. In that context, such a junta is not wrong and provides the necessary peace.
Elections will follow shortly. This has been the case in Thailand for many years.
I can't say which system is better because politics everywhere stinks of lies and dirty games.
When I look/read/observe what has been happening in the Netherlands in recent years in all kinds of areas, I ask myself: “Would I still want to live in that democratic Netherlands?” And the answer is: No, I wouldn't want to go back to the Netherlands for any price. I lived in Bangkok for several years and now live in a small village in the Isaan. I adhere to the rules that apply to farang. Fulfill my duties, avoid any kind of tumult, keep me "on the level" and enjoy everything around me every day. And how and by whom this country is governed? That doesn't bother me at all in daily practice and that was different in the Netherlands 🙂
If you lived the same way in the Netherlands, you wouldn't be bothered by anything
I've lived here for 10 years now. I don't care much about the type of government. Before the last coup, things were not going well at all. Daily deaths were caused by the protests of some groups. Action had to be taken.
Personally, I think it is the duty of the army to intervene if the “democratic” parties make a mess.
After the coup it was quiet.
I enjoy living here so will stay here
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
An army is an instrument of a government legally elected by the people for the sole purpose of protecting the country's borders from outside disaster. NOT to shoot at your own citizens or to forcefully overthrow a government elected by the people legally or not. During peace, the military must remain in their barracks and only come out if the people are threatened from beyond the borders.
Only those protests in 2013-2014 were just a dirty game by ultra royalists and with a handshake from the army. Things have deliberately gotten further and further out of control so that the army has 'no choice' anymore. But anyone who takes the state propaganda for granted will indeed believe that Prayut and his generals simply had no other choice with fresh reluctance…
See for example. https://www.thailandblog.nl/achtergrond/de-strijd-om-democratie-in-thailand-sinds-premier-thaksin-slot/
Personally, I don't think it's the army's job to intervene in politics. The army is supposed to be in the barracks and defend the country or lay sandbags in the event of a flood, etc. But the generals have often held power since 1932, so teach them not to express their will to the people 'in the interest of the country' to lay…
I see the word “democracy” used a lot here on the blog. What is Democracy????? Western governments where we are allowed to vote to ultimately “ALWAYS” prove a group of people wrong. Like in Belgium excluding a party on which 20% of the Belgians vote and then excluding that same group by setting up a “Cordon Sanitair” so that they are no longer allowed to play ????
Trust me, democracy is a joke. I think the Junta in Thailand isn't that bad after all. They establish laws and duties, which a “democracy” ultimately does. The only thing that is now being looked at with a harder hand is whether those rules are being followed. This is better than in our countries. Europe is overrun by Islamists who simply follow THEIR rules and sweep their feet at everything else. What are our governments doing??? They just let go. They expel criminal aliens, but they can just go and are no longer even followed. The result is that they stay here and continue to roam the country clandestinely, resulting in new crime.
Then rather a junta that actually deports these people.
We are short of prisons in Europe. Here every criminal must have a cell with color television, internet and a human existence. They should treat all those barbarians like in Thailand and let them do social work such as cleaning sewers. Bet many would come to their senses more. Now prisons here are a kind of hotel on paid leave.
Antwerp is now a hub of drug trafficking. Here and there they do find drugs in a container and criminals are arrested. They get ridiculous sentences and in most cases the lawyers find some procedural error of some sort so they can go free. If that does not happen and they actually have to go to prison, then we have the law “Lejeune” with which you can ask to be released after 1/3 of your sentence. That will work in many cases. A few days later, those men are already back at work with the drug trade.
For all I care, there may be a dictator or a junta here that puts a limit on all these things. Honest, good citizens will not be bothered by this.
Yes I know. They are my dreams and dreams are deceptions.
In Thailand they also lack prisons, And they have a lot of them.
It is also a fairy tale that rules and laws are observed better than before.
Prisoners are not barbarians by definition, any more than those people outside are not barbarians by definition.
In Belgium, criminals are sometimes unjustly released, and in Thailand, with the code in your hand, you can impose a draconian punishment on any Thai criminal in court, due to a proliferation of prohibitions and the arbitrary punishment that can be attached to them.
5 years of junta didn't make prisons in Thailand emptier, so what went wrong?
Cleaning sewers is done on a voluntary basis in exchange for a reduced sentence.
I agree with a lot of writers. We may vote here, but the gentlemen in The Hague do what they want and it comes true. People are promised all sorts of things before the elections, but nothing comes of it. What in fact the so-called democracy in the Netherlands. I can understand that you stay in Thailand. We are too old, but otherwise I knew it too. Away from the rapidly changing Netherlands.
Dear Marijke, In your response you forget the great shadow side, which is very important.
You may publicly announce the mistakes that a Dutch government certainly makes, without imprisonment waiting for you.
To bring another political government to power, without a military Junta making it almost impossible, everyone has the right to change this.
The fact that a government is currently in power in the Netherlands that does not represent everyone's taste is due to the fact that other voters apparently thought differently about this.
All the complaints about the so-called horribly changed Netherlands would quickly be lost if one did not only think about holidays, but looked a little further.
A Dutchman who lives only on a state pension and a small pension certainly does not have a lot of money, but compared to a Thai with 700 Baht P / M, still a wealth.
The same also applies to the miserable education in Thailand, which until now no elite government has wanted to change.
Why change is so stupid that it is easy to govern and exploit.
My wife is Thai, and speaks the opposite of you, and certainly not without reason.
To each his own, but some get the feeling that they have not thought everything through so well in their plans to enjoy their evening in Thailand.
Many will never admit this, and since no one should have any doubts about their plans once made, everything is pretended to be much better in their new destination than in the often damned homeland.
Most of them have so minimal language skills that there can hardly be any real profitable social contacts with the Thai population itself.
And if these contacts are a little better, one often notices that the Interests are often miles apart.
They have become guests in a country where, as long as they speak enough Thai to express their political opinion, it is better to remain silent.
And if someone does have trouble with this almost obligatory silence, it may happen that he / she has to spend the rest of his life evening in a prison.
Lovely living in a paradise, where your wife has to report you in the house you usually paid for yourself, every time with a TM30 form, if you were temporarily absent.
And to be completely sure where Lung Farang, who often pays a lot in a family where the Thai government defaults, is also required to report every 90 days.
My Thai wife and I live in Europe where we are both allowed to express our opinion, and where, as a Thai, she has exactly the same rights as the rest of the population, except for the right to vote.
An EU residence permit, which allows her to travel and work visa-free every day in every Schengen state, and to give her every day the grateful feeling of freedom that Farangs can dream of in her homeland.
But as I already started in my response, to each his own….
I read all posts with great attention. Democracy was overused and misused.
I lived in Thailand for over 12 years. First in a village, later in a village, 12km from Chiang Mai. I really enjoyed living in Thailand.
But what I miss in many comments, that the Thai authorities are making it increasingly difficult for the retired person to get his annual visa. Sure, if like me, you were a bachelor and didn't have a Thai boyfriend or girlfriend.
Thailand is not democratic and never has been. Paternalism was rampant and still is today. Whoever is in power. “I scratch your back, then you scratch mine” is still the political slogan of all parties.
I now live in the Netherlands, with great pleasure. No country is a paradise, so the Netherlands is not either. What I do experience here is that there is a social safety net. Not that “safety net” of twenty years ago, but a “safety net”.
I was good friends with a monk and with him I traveled almost all over Thailand and saw abject poverty. No Thai authority has paid and is paying attention to really addressing that abject poverty. Some patchwork here and there, but really tackling, no.
If there is "real" democracy in Thailand, the country will change, but that will take several generations, in my opinion. Fortunately, the young people are starting to give a little more resistance. As an older person of today, I experienced the sixties, with Provo, democratization, etc. That was, in my opinion, a big positive change in society and democracy
.
That will come in Thailand too, but not in a generation.
As the questioner of whether you still need to welcome Thailand, I have read the answers with astonishment. There is a lot going on in Thailand that is completely against any principle of freedom, as we have all been taught since our kindergarten years. But apparently the frustration with the Netherlands is so great that Thailand is preferable as a militaristic regime. What frustration about the Netherlands is there then, that people reason so opportunistically about Thailand? The semi-dictatorial regime ensures law and order. In the Netherlands everyone has the right of association. In Thailand your right to a free opinion is curtailed. In the Netherlands it is sometimes too much of a good thing. In the Netherlands, every new immigrant is entitled to care. In Thailand, NL pensioners are desperately wondering why they cannot qualify for the 30-baht scheme.
Many nevertheless despise the Netherlands in order to justify the events in Thailand. They have to, because there is no going back. And therein lies the frustration. You end up under a bridge, it was noted. If you want to return to the Netherlands, you need good reception: close family, friends, acquaintances, colleagues. But many burned them with their ships at the same time. So stay in Thailand and say it's good. One cannot do otherwise. Just say what you think about it, and refer to which freedoms in the Netherlands have not been fought for since your kindergarten years. Precisely. An attitude repair is yours. So close your eyes and close your beak.
I agree with dear Ruud.
Read the story of Claire Licciardo , this is how people treat tourists . Thailand did not want to sign the UNCAT treaty, this says enough. Mr. Vulpen's story is also not positive for Thailand. There is no proper legal protection. Thailand is just a dictatorship and I don't understand how people from a free democracy with reasonable legal protection go to a country where you are at the mercy of arbitrariness. If you happen to get into a situation in Thailand, for example an accident or a taxi with prohibited items, you can get into big trouble. Farang has to pay - often exorbitantly - or else you will be imprisoned. Thailand is not heaven, but the gateway to hell.
Everyone makes their own choices. No country is perfect and rules are not made for eternity. And if you don't like it, move on.
They bake bread everywhere, my father always said, and you have to put the toppings on everything yourself.
After reading all the responses I felt compelled to respond. I have been coming to Thailand for 43 years and for the last almost 16 years I have been living here permanently. A conscious choice. After 26 years together in the Netherlands, we wanted to spend the last part of our lives in Thailand. In all those years I have never had any problems with any agency. We also noticed little difference between the various governments, military or so-called democratically elected. Unfortunately, when this blog is about Thai politics, the left-wing club comes to tell us how terrible the junta's policy is and that we should reject it. The Thai population also misses democracy so much. I don't notice this at all in my family and fellow villagers. Also, none of my family who lives, works and studies in Bangkok has been arrested or dragged away to a re-education camp. Nice discussions were had with Song Kran when almost everyone was at home, and very occasionally about politics. But no fear or distress. We haven't been to Nerderland for 9 years and if it's up to me I'll never go there again. Finally, I want to say that I came to live in Thailand to have a nice last part of my life and not to get involved in Thai politics or be the human rights activist. We should leave that to the Thai people, because our nagging and nagging really doesn't bring a solution closer.
The eight quietest years I have experienced here in Thailand were the years that General Prem Tinsulanonda was Prime Minister from 1980 to 1988. No parades or demonstrations and even quiet and calm in southern Thailand. For the rest, one revolution (pattiwat) after another during the so-called elected governments. Lost count of how many there were. Thailand is a country where the Democracy you so praised does not work or never works. Thailand needs a firm hand.
Yes Theo, that's how those in power see it too. They love their country (and the tons of money and power), and the buffaloes have to be beaten in rows every now and then. The sweet father and husband who sometimes beats his wife and children until they bleed and shouts 'I hurt you because I love you'. Really, father means well, but he has to protect his family members from himself, sometimes with a heavy hand. They can't handle freedom and participation no, that hard hand is needed...
And Prem [preem]? Well..
https://apnews.com/4e5193aa780e4b32ae34966f647f2fc5
This story about Prem contains a large number of inaccuracies. Insiders know that since 2003-2004 Prem was absolutely no longer a confidant and that the gentlemen never spoke to each other again after that, about any subject. So that he was involved in the 2006 coup is utter nonsense.
Then name those inaccuracies concretely, dear Chris. Where is the evidence that Prem had long since been sidelined? Why that speech in mid-2006 by Prem in which he reminded army officers that their loyalty lay with the king and not with the elected government? Pure coincidence that some time later there was a coup?
Name man and horse, bring sources, let our ears chatter. I will be grateful to you. Otherwise your response will seem like an unfounded accusation.
If I write down what I know (from people directly involved, who don't write it down in the newspaper or on a website), Peter is guaranteed not to publish it because this blog no longer exists.
Just a question in return.
When your Thai girlfriend tells you that the well-known manhole cover in the forecourt of the government building was stolen on behalf of the ultra-nationalists to make the head of state look bad and you ask with some disbelief where she got that wisdom. She replies that her sister works for Suthep and that she has heard that Suthep personally ordered it…. do you believe your girlfriend or must such news first have been in the Khaosod before you accept it as true?
Then my answer to that friend is: nice theory but without any direct or indirect evidence it might as well be gossip, conspiracy theory or total nonsense. Something that can't be taken much more seriously, that talking at the bar until proven otherwise.
Write those claims down in a letter, put them in an envelope and announce them in x years or when you're gone.
I understand that if such a message is in the Khaosod, it absolutely cannot be gossip, conspiracy theory or total nonsense. I think you are one of the very few in this world who blindly trust the media and believe that fake news does not exist: not before and not now.
The truth without acknowledgment is not truth.
I think that's a very special conclusion Chris. So I didn't write that. Have a nice day.
Chris,
It seems strong to me that Prem, as chairman (president) of the king's advisory council (privy council), has no contact with the king (Phumipon). And Prem was a member since 1988 and chairman of that club since 1998 until the death of the king in October 2016, after which he was appointed regent for the short kingless period (= until December 1, 2016).
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/prem-tinsulanonda-thailands-privy-council-president-dies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Tinsulanonda
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/obituaries/prem-tinsulanonda-dead.html
So your claim that they haven't spoken since 2003/4 cries out for attribution.
It is an open secret that the political measures taken by the Thaksin government after his resounding election victory in 2001 appealed to the head of state because much of it was aimed at improving the position of the poor Thais. The opposite was true for Prem. It definitely didn't get along between the two gentlemen.
By the way, it is best to appoint someone to a position for the outside world and ignore his advice.
"Prem was no friend of Democracy," writes The Nation:
“Hailed as the great statesmen of our era, Prem Tinsulanonda exploited unmatched connections to halt democratic progress . General Prem Tinsulanonda will be remembered for many things – but advancing Thai democracy will not be among them.”
https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/opinion/30370184
Is an anonymous opinion also the real truth?
Could it be that it was the ideal link to channel the wishes of the various power parties a bit so that no situations would arise that do exist in Myanmar and Cambodia?
Since 1992 or so they have been experimenting with more say for citizens and even then it was expected that the process would take at least a generation. Now of course I also have to mention the source of the last sentence, but that book of scientists is somewhere in NL between abandoned stuff. It had a yellow white cover and pocket size so maybe someone knows it.
If scientists have investigated this and have written a booklet (the internet was not there for the people) then I believe it immediately, even though you can also want to see another side to this.
Scientists hired by the "elite" because then the game can continue for another generation.
There is a chance that this newspaper will have to pay a visit after the publication. After all, it also happened regularly at Thai Rath, I understand from their advisor.
I am discouraged by many reactions here, where people think of their own food and drink without compassion for the people. Whether people even put on the blinkers, look away and isolate themselves from what is going on in the country. Me, me and myself, then my family, then my friends and somewhere in the 10th place I give some interest in the Thai people. Well, as long as you have your snack and your drink, annoying those 3 months of reports, annoying about those things that collide with human rights, just keep your mouth shut and don't interfere or intensify anything, then it is very good to live in beautiful Thailand. Blindfolds on, beaks closed. Bit selfish and cold maybe?
Fortunately, there are also readers who clearly see the problems that this beautiful Thailand has. Whoever it gnaws at, like the sender of this posting. That gives hope.
Dear Readers,
I just want to criticize because I'm afraid that sooner or later things won't go well in Thailand.
It is essential that Thailand treats prisoners more humanely and will sign the UNCAT treaty.
Furthermore, I gladly refer the readers to the articles by journalist Ate Hoekstra, who works as a freelancer
for TROUW , July 26, 2017 and March 24, 2019 . These articles give a good look at the situation in Thailand. A dictatorship is economically damaging to a country, as it discourages companies from investing in such countries. In the course of time all dictatorships are doomed to disappear, as man loves freedom of mind and wants to express his opinion.
I also suspect that the internet is controlled by the Thai government, not only in Thailand, but also outside Thailand. As an example I give what I experienced myself, some time ago March 2019.
From the Netherlands I typed to my Thai girlfriend via LINE, that the king's sister is beautiful and smart, which is a compliment, but after 2 days my LINE was blocked. I am in the Netherlands and they check my internet, this concerns me still too far. As I have already said, Thailand is a dictatorship, also in view of the changes in the constitution a few years ago. I am looking for better places, where I can live in freedom of mind and freedom of speech. As a sensible person, I speak my mind don't string. In the end, the good, the humane, will win over the evil.
Dear jbm,
Let me be the first to comment then. The fact that you do not receive a substantive response to your opinion does not mean that there are no readers who disagree with you. I see that there have been ratings.
In addition, comments are moderated, which may mean that comments have been shortened or not posted. This is because people deviate from the item or because the contribution is almost incomprehensible due to many language errors. Those who don't bother responding to your contributions may have nothing to do with what you write. Take that into consideration. By the way, your contribution would be more personal if you just mentioned your name and not three incomprehensible letters.
The fact that a certain article by a journalist gives a good picture of a described situation does not necessarily have to be correct. There are plenty of journalists who just write something.
Finally, you state that your LINE account has been blocked and you assume without any substantiation that the Thai government is to blame. It is unlikely that a positive statement about the Thai royal family will lead to an account being blocked. Who would it serve?
If what you say is true, then you have to take into account that you will be sent back if you want to visit Thailand.
So jb….
Dear Rob V. Isn't it a little shortsighted to call people who see things differently from you cold and selfish and that they wear blinders. In an earlier response I have already said that all our nagging and posturing do not bring a solution. The endless discussion about democracy does not help either and I think that is wasted energy. I prefer to focus on short-term work so that I can see results during my life. I am very involved in my family and village life. I sometimes give advice in my field when asked for it. In some cases I also support a family member who has run into problems through no fault of his own. My wife is the eldest of 5 children and the youngest her only brother has been able to study at university through my help. The next generation have all gone to university and they are all doing fairly well to very well. In 1977 I bought almost 6 rai of land and apart from my own house 4 houses have been built on it and the 5th is under construction. Land available for free. I am convinced that my family is much happier with this kind of help. If I had worried about Thai politics and the human rights situation, they wouldn't have noticed. So worry about things that may very well work in the very long term, because you are a lot younger than me. But don't call me cold and selfish, rather realistic.
There is nothing wrong with having a different opinion than mine, but people who flatly proclaim that if you keep your mouth shut and their own food and drink is of the utmost importance .. well that is not very sympathetic in my book to the people who are being taken by the army, who face intimidation, violence and so on. Then I'm talking about those who consciously play the ostrich, look away. No, that's not everyone here who thinks differently, that goes in degrees from 'I can see the dishonesty but wisely keep my mouth shut' to 'well if I only have my beer I'll be satisfied'.
Great if you also contribute to a better society in your own way. As long as you don't have a 'me me, it's about my pleasure here and I don't care about the oppression' attitude, you're not selfish.
I think it's all fine: democracy, dictatorship, whatever. If my wife puts the beer cold in front of me every afternoon at 1 o'clock, I'm satisfied. The Thai really don't care who is in power, especially here in Isaan. People just enjoy the day and each other, just like this Piet here. It's all going well, isn't it? Everyone has their wet and dry.
Maybe those left-wing students in Bangkok are a bit of a concern, but I have nothing to do with that, do I? No, I came here to enjoy my old age. Beer, butt, girl and sitting in the sun: that's what it's all about for me. All those left-wing hobbies like politics can be stolen from me and will take my time.
Quote
'The Thai really don't care who is in power, especially here in Isaan. People just enjoy the day and each other, just like this Piet here. It's all going well, isn't it? Everyone has their own wet and dry food.'
Doesn't the Thai care? What nonsense. Just about every Thai in the Isaan and the North participated in the demonstrations for more democracy in 2009 and 2010. In 1973 and 1992 ditto. Do what you can't help but please don't pass judgment on the Thais?
This week on Thursday, May 30, the Prime Minister of Thailand has a private chat with India's highly successful re-elected Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
It would be to the credit of PM Prayut Chan-o-cha if he wants to follow Narendra Modi's line.
I think that the Thai government has also been impressed by Narendra Modi's performance.
Well, Chander, let it be in the press today that Prayuth is not going to India but is sending a high envoy. But you couldn't know that yet.
I wonder if Modi's system would work in Thailand: in India today 15% of the population, the Muslims, as well as the Dalit, the 'untouchables' of the lowest caste, are heavily discriminated against and people are even killed because of their cattle trade . Moreover, in Modi's India, the position of women is much less than in Thailand, and the same applies to the gay/lesbian community.
No, as far as I'm concerned, leave Modi's approach there!
Not that I like the political system in Thailand, but imagine a scenario where people got real freedom, better education, rising wages and pensions that they could actually live on.
For many Farangs who now benefit from the poor policy, and say they are OOH so happy with this system, the rising costs forced them to return to the once abandoned homeland where many believed nothing was right anymore.
Many were, and that includes me, of a usually much younger partner with the ass not being looked at, if a government in Thailand would have really done something about the often miserable conditions.
No one has commented substantively on my response. I have clearly stated my sources , at least to be found on the internet . But I don't find the simple "if only I have my beer" and such similar expressions as any kind of humane approach to the current situation in Thailand. Imagine that you will be offered a 10-day holiday to North Korea, in all luxury, but 5 km away people are starving to death or are being closed in degrading prisons, will you go. From the reactions I read that there are people who just go, as long as they are doing well themselves. What kind of society do we live in. Have we learned nothing from the horrors of
wars and especially dictatorships, such as in Argentina, Russia and Cambodia, just to name a few. I hope people start to think in a humane way and not only think about his own pleasure.