Reader Submission: Will there be deaths in Thailand?
(Adirach Toumlamoon / Shutterstock.com)
This isn't actually a question, the question is when this will happen. If you follow the social media, and especially the last week, it is almost inevitable, given the excessive violence that the police use against the generally young demonstrators.
They have no prospect of a better life and therefore out of frustration, because apparently no one listens to them seriously, provokes the police by throwing fireworks and stones at them and starting some fires in the street.
It is also striking that they do not destroy private property or loot shops as happens in Europe during a clash with the police. I don't want to justify this behavior, but I do understand it somehow, I also understand that as a government you can and may act proportionally against it, the only question is what is proportional. In my opinion, not the excessive use of tear gas, water cannons and rubber bullets.
When I see on the images how large the police force is compared to the relatively small number of demonstrators, I do not understand that so much violence has to be used. I'm talking about running over demonstrators riding a scooter, firing rubber bullets at close range or the cops trying to knock over a speeding scooter with a police shield in hand, so a person can easily be killed.
Also shooting with rubber bullets from a moving pick-up truck by the police is very reprehensible, you can just injure completely innocent people or cause damage, as happened in a flat on the first floor where a window was broken.
If the police were to use a little more tactics, their huge number of officers could easily "confine" the demonstrators and arrest them without violence. All the more so since I have not yet seen a demonstrator who has used violence against the police during the violent arrests of today.
In addition, there are many peace-loving demonstrators who would like to enter into discussion with the government, last Saturday they wanted to hold a march to Lumphini park, but saw their way blocked by shipping containers, barbed wire, water cannons and a huge police force, why? These demonstrators did not allow themselves to be provoked and chose another target via a different route.
Lucky for the authorities, a tropical storm broke out and rained out a large part of the demonstration.
But you can see that it is getting grimer and that more and more people are sympathizing with the demonstrators, even if they do not always demonstrate, but that must have to do with the fact that some rice has to be put in the bowl, so work, because as a simple citizen you don't have to expect anything from this government.
And then you see again on September 7 that the police arrest a number of young people at Din Daeng who were doing nothing at that time just sitting on their scooter, again tear gas was used for nothing, and aid workers could hardly provide adequate help due to the police force present, when When the general population began to turn against the police en masse, these heroes apparently became frightened and slunk off in their disguised cars.
The images of this can be found on the Facebook page of Ratsadon News.
I hope our ambassador reads this too, and maybe with some diplomacy can add some weight, despite it being a domestic affair of Thailand, but the Netherlands has also signed the human rights treaty.
Then in my opinion you can take a stand against a regime where detainees are suffocated with a plastic bag over their heads, others just disappear a police commissioner with disproportionate wealth, this seems to me to be enough to at least express your concerns, this for the protection of all the lovely, kind, ordinary Thai people who are now becoming more and more angry, distraught and therefore probably more and more violent.
Submitted by Rob
I am also not in favor of excessive police force, but I still feel that many “demonstrators” simply participate out of boredom. Demonstrating or destroying things is a big difference.
Yes, Bert, taking the risk out of boredom…
..a blow to the head..
..a rubber bullet..
..a prison sentence..
..the group around Rienthong Nanna takes pictures of you and that will cost you a nice job later on..
..yes really, also my idea? So no. Fortunately, yours is just an idea and nothing more. Maybe it's time to put that idea aside?
The need is great and not just financially. Glad to see you on the street. I share Rob's opinion that there could be deaths soon. Among the citizens. After all, the uniforms have the weapons and are rarely punished in Thailand. Examples galore, unfortunately.
You will not hear me say that the demonstrations are unjustified. All I'm saying is that many just join in out of boredom. Of course things can and should be improved in Th, but let's not pretend that everything is so well organized in NL. The food banks in NL and the debt restructuring and the psychiatrists are working overtime. The safety net is better than in TH, but shouldn't be necessary.
It seems to me that the protesters have a number of valid points. Think of the poor economic state, the poor approach to COVID-19 and vaccinations, the support for the current Myanmar government, the focus on China (ao Chinese vaccines). It therefore seems right to me that if the current government does nothing with it, more people will become motivated. I have a lot of respect for that. Because they do so at the risk of their own lives.
yes, but a few thousand on brmmmoers and in cars will not really help. In addition, it is only a bit restless in Bangkok; the rest of the country (otherwise so active) apparently cares little.
Finally, it is very likely that Nattawut has been instructed to slow down on the streets now that the PPRP is rumbling internally thanks to Promprow (and Prawit in the lee). No one believes that he is calling off a demonstration because there MAYBE be an arrest warrant against him…
Restless alone in Bangkok, Chris? There were almost daily demonstrations in many cities across the country. Not a great number of people, but still. They care quite a lot I read and hear. But yes, Bangkok is the center of the Thai universe.
The poor “protesters”, dressed in helmets and leather clothing, armed with whatever stones and sticks and slingshots are available, who clearly do not come to demonstrate but to riot.
The number of red shirts is remarkable.
Considering that, these "peace-loving" demonstrators do appear in a strange light.
Do not make the mistake of unleashing Western ideas on Thailand, where democracy means something completely different than it should mean in the Netherlands….
So should.
I have been living in Thailand for a long time now. I've seen riots like this before. And of course I think something of “police action”. and of the “rioters”
But we are guests here in Thailand as (future) immigrants or tourists.
I have a Thai wife and a large Thai in-laws. But I had to promise them not to interfere in Thai politics (for or against the government)
Because I want to live here for a long time, I refrain from commenting in writing
Poor “demonstrators” and the “police heroes who run wild in unrecognizable cars” proves once again that even the Dutch have different views on this.
I would advise you not to get involved in politics on this public blog.
It can turn against you. I know from family experience that the Thai government has a long arm and a long breath and a rock-solid memory.
And to call on the ambassador via this blog to find out something about it and to question the Thai government about it is not appropriate. The ambassador is managed from The Hague. So encourage your representatives in The Hague to influence foreign policy towards Thailand.
It is impossible for him (the ambassador) and so you may be disappointed in the ambassador that he does not.
greeting
whoops
Dear Janderk,
The big problem is that if everyone keeps their mouths shut, nothing will happen, and the elite can only become more elitist or richer at the expense of the common man.
If you want to go along with that, go ahead, but I won't keep my mouth shut for the sake of my family, but luckily my wife also supports the protesters' views.
And I am free to also ask the ambassador to take action, and I have also informed the political parties and if the politicians in The Hague are approached from both sides, there may be more pressure.
So you can keep your mouth shut and bend like a jackknife to any uniform, I certainly can't.
good luck Rob
I am glad that my Thai wife lives in the Netherlands and is not a guest here, but is allowed to be part of society and just give her opinion about everything.
It reads: I would advise you not to engage in politics on this public blog. A few weeks ago, the Prime Minister in this country was rebuffed by the judiciary because he wanted to introduce censorship on freedom of expression. The statement was also made in English and that is probably because there was a lot of criticism from the international world. The criticism also came from foreigners and fortunately there are also rights to freedom of expression in Thailand, and this also includes those who come from abroad and live here. When I see media such as the Bangkok Post, I see a flood of negative criticism from many people on every post that has to do with the government, and I don't get the impression that someone is sitting there with their buttocks clenched in fear, on the contrary. even then I sometimes feel sorry for the Prime Minister because often the best pilots are on shore and it is difficult in a large country to please everyone. The first foreigner to be removed due to criticism will still have to be found and I suspect that if Thailand does not want to receive a worldwide storm of criticism, they should leave it that way. We have seen enough fearmongers in history and, in contrast, the heroes who have made freedom in one form or another possible through their words and actions. And no, as a resident from abroad you are not a guest but you are subject to the rules, laws and regulations and in return there are privileges such as freedom of expression.
Here is the link about the censorship in the Bangkok Post:
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2161247/civil-court-blocks-pms-gag-on-free-speech
Ger, people of the caliber 'rather blo-jan than do-jan' can be found everywhere and also among the foreigners in Thailand. But I think they don't read the Donald Duck just to avoid all forms of criticism.
In this country ordinary criticism is allowed. Just a few months ago, that American teacher who became a member of a critical writing group in Isaan also noticed this. Mister's visa was not extended, but before the international press got wind of it, the visa was suddenly extended again. Well, that was an administrative error. Or just a hint? Well, sir is still there.
Janderk had to promise his in-laws not to interfere in domestic politics. To interfere is to get involved in something, to participate in something. Well, we never do that here, do we?
But having an opinion, yes, you will find plenty here. Not being allowed to have an opinion means that I would allow myself to be brain-dead. Well, I gave that in-laws a nice kick! And her with it.
Dear Hans,
I'm not saying that those aren't riot young people, but again if you have no prospect of a better life and then now with Covid I understand somewhere, I'm not talking right.
But I don't think the police should use so much violence against it.
And I haven't seen the peace-loving demonstrators hurt a fly yet, but why can't they march to the park.
Please read my contribution carefully again.
And today I saw at least 30 demonstrators with yellow shirts who were neatly accompanied by the police, they could cross every intersection without any problems, I didn't see a riot police, water cannon container or barbed wire blocking their way, don't you think it's strange?
regards Rob
Indeed, dear namesake, the police act properly, according to their own words according to international standards. Which of course is doubted by many. You should not shoot rubber bullets from very close or at the upper body, you should use tear gas with great restraint, and so on. Otherwise there will be unnecessary injuries or worse…
The red… yellow carpet then goes out again for the few demonstrations of the pro rulers and status quo supporters. Measuring double standards is not strange in Thailand either. Where that comes from, citizens are bombarded with rules or special interpretations of the rules, and where it does not work out, they disappear under the rug and people look away or give them another creative twist.
Thailand and democracy or human rights is therefore not a happy combination. Much has been written about this on this blog. In 2018 I once wrote a piece here (Thailand Disrupted: The Death of Thai-Style Democracy), where I wrote this at the end:
“The real obstacle to democracy in Thailand is not Thai culture but the elite and its interests. An elite who were happy to import ideas from outside as long as it benefited them. Rejecting democracy has nothing to do with protecting Thai democracy. Supporting a “Thai-style democracy” simply means acknowledging that the big boys decide what is in keeping with tradition and what is not. ”
That people in the East or Asia look differently at democracy is therefore not accepted by me. I see that as a sign of contempt for the citizens. Democracy is a global thing, the exact interpretation of it differs from place to place, of course, but every person can get together with the rest of the group, discuss and vote on the course to be followed. Should one want to give the citizen that chance, opposition from elites who do not want to lose power, influence, wealth and so on is also a logical consequence, but in the end the people will decide. Whether they are continent X or Y.
I also allow outsiders to have their say. Can't someone also see and contribute things from the sidelines? That sometimes gives you a fresh look. So let those foreigners in Thailand, the Netherlands and so on have their say. The more votes the better. That is a sign that you fully regard and respect each other. And if you don't like what you hear, you give a counterargument or, if necessary, ignore the comments.
The remark of a single ambassador will make little difference, but if a lot of representatives do that (ambassadors, other diplomats, international organizations), one can scratch one's head. If not for humanitarian reasons, then for financial consequences if a country throws its reputation at stake.
Dear Janderk,
The big problem is that if everyone keeps their mouths shut, nothing will happen, and the elite can only become more elitist or richer at the expense of the common man.
If you want to go along with that, go ahead, but I won't keep my mouth shut for the sake of my family, but luckily my wife also supports the protesters' views.
And I am free to also ask the ambassador to take action, and I have also informed the political parties and if the politicians in The Hague are approached from both sides, there may be more pressure.
So you can keep your mouth shut and bend like a jackknife to any uniform, I certainly can't.
good luck Rob
Dear Rob, and others.
Of course I like it. I'm not posting that on a public blog.
But as I said in my comment
The arm is long, has a long breath and does not forget anything.
And what appears to be a gain at first glance will later turn out to be a mistake (note the Taliban). We can scream bloody murder. The whole world can use his influence and say that real democracy has finally emerged in Thailand. But the people (the Thai) will always react in the way they have for centuries. and then it turns out in the long run that nothing has changed. Whoever is left behind is not us. It is the Thai, your family and descendants who must continue to live here. We can possibly return to the Netherlands with your loved one and children, but the other family will have to fend for themselves here.
After class in Afghanistan, we need to know our place and not the know-it-all who will tell it for a while.
I learn from the past and look beyond my life.
The Thai will choose its own form of government and not a kind of democracy well-intentioned by us foreigners.
Not that I don't believe in Dutch democracy. I rate it highly. But see what that democracy has brought to the people in the Netherlands (for example, I mention the housing shortage, surcharge affair, rule for this and rule for that, etc etc).
When I arrived here almost 16 years ago with my Thai wife, I built a house without many "rules" and without a permit. And there I learned that there is also a downside to democracy in the Netherlands.
And yes there is corruption, but where is it not. The Dutch ministers who resign after knowing all about the ins and outs of their field, only to start working as a lobbyist in that field. And that is how we can all name things that are not properly regulated in our Dutch democracy or that go wrong.
Don't go as the all-knowing Calvinist in Thailand (or other countries in the world) telling them how to live.
The Thai people have centuries of experience (note the era) and we are just coming to see, and certainly the people who (possibly only know about Thailand) here on this blog know how the Thai should change life. They look like the missionaries of the past who brought "civilization" to Africa.
I was already visiting here in 1970. I already enjoyed the beauty of the country and the people back then.
That hasn't changed in all that time. and yes, even then this “Thai democracy” was theirs. Leave it that way.
But I don't want to shut you up, so speak up.
I don't think it makes any difference.
Janderk
It was announced the day before yesterday by the Thai government that foreigners who interfere in this matter will have consequences for their residence status in Thailand.
Jan Beute..
Dear Robert V,
Isn't it time to let go of colonialism and just show respect to the inhabitants of a country? The residents are not idiots but will have to figure it out for themselves. I still find it strange that someone in the Netherlands is running amok in a country where you don't live. Is Afghanistan a good example?
I remember South Africa and Nelson Mandela, I remember the Netherlands in the 40s and the help from abroad, I remember Japan which was held back by various countries, I remember Myanmar which, thanks to foreign intervention, is holding back, I remember Tibet, which was overrun by its large neighbor China and where Tibetans are now a minority in their own country, I remember Indonesia, which received their freedom thanks to the support of the US and the Netherlands had to leave as a colonizer... I could go on and on. Nice heating in another country, I'm happy with some help from abroad otherwise we would now be speaking German or Russian.
Dear Johnny, I don't see how support from abroad or at home for demonstrations and similar movements fighting for democracy, human rights and so on would be imperialistic. On this earth, let us work together and exchange ideas and the like. Looking the other way instead of reaching out to others is not something I feel comfortable with. I hope that Thais will just as well keep their mouths shut when they see abuses across the border, including where I live. Fortunately, they do that: think, for example, of the “milk tea alliance” in SE Asia. The demonstrators from various countries have already learned a lot from each other.
Now you're out of control, Johnny BG.
You compare a military invasion with expressing (constructive) criticism. I, and I think everyone here on this forum, have no intention of imposing my vision/will on Thailand/the Thai.
Already read an article that a Thai woman died as a result of the rubber bullet.
Any treaty on human rights is a joke, just like democracy.
It is a pity that so many Thais (2019) did not vote for an opposition out of empathic behavior and still opted for the military again.
Moreover, the established order ensured that the opposition went down hard and there is no longer any opposition. That which was built up is back to 0. All members in the opposition party FF, may never again perform a government job.
Then the only thing left is to demonstrate, which can become quite expensive. The established order wants to remain in place and therefore sends the police and army to suppress everything.
A proven method that works, teaches history and the present time. As a protester you will have to grow and persevere, otherwise it will not work and it can even cost you your life.
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