Reader submission: Open letter to the Dutch embassy about Schengen visa Thai partner
Dear editors of Thailandblog,
You will receive a copy that I have just sent to the Dutch Embassy in Bangkok and Minister Koenders.
It was not my intention to send a copy of this to you as a newspaper, but in my writing things have gotten out of hand from my intention about what I was going to write. As a result, I now have the feeling that what has emerged from it may be of interest to your newspaper. You may use this e-mail freely provided you do not change the text. If you want to do that, please submit it to me first, because my signature is underneath it. It's my writing, so I remain responsible for it. I would like to keep it that way.
Best regards and enjoy reading your email,
Chris Visser Sr.
Grandpa Chris
Dear employees of the Dutch Embassy, try not to condemn my use of language but to understand it, because I am a dyslexia patient?
On behalf of my friend Aoy, I am writing to you this e-mail.
We are currently planning to spend every 90 days together in Europe or Thailand.
Last year she went to Europe with me for the first time from 8 October to 10 December.
She had 90 days of visa permission for this, which, in hindsight, she unfortunately did not make full use of.
Yesterday, February 3, 2015, Aoy was informed that she is not eligible to come with me to Europe for another 8 days on March 90. An application has now been made to be able to go to Europe from April 2. Unfortunately, this has now caused a problem. Namely, the tickets at KLM have already been purchased.
My ticket runs from December 10 Amsterdam to March 8 Bangkok return.
Aoy's ticket is a round trip from Bangkok March 8 to June 3 from Amsterdam back to Bangkok.
My question now is, is there a sleeve to adjust here?
Is it possible to come up with a solution for this within reason and fairness, as stated in our constitution? We have acted in good faith in this matter.
If it were the case that in this case there is no possibility to go to Europe on March 8, then I think that with our plan to live between Europe and Thailand every 90 days, we will also be in trouble because a year does not have 360 days but 365. My visa for a stay in Thailand also runs per 90 days.
My opinion about this bottleneck is that a law is intended to function in the service of people and to design logical rules for people. However, my natural feeling cannot discover any disadvantage in this for Europe or Thailand in my case, but the law is not sufficient in this.
The Schengen legislation does not take into account people who are loving to themselves and are not out to abuse the European economy. While a legislation for naturally living people, as we are with each other, should take this fact into account in the first place during the design. Unfortunately, this does not happen here in the rules laid down in the Schengen.
Legislation designers must realize that a law is a dead and therefore stupid thing for well-meaning intelligent people. This is generally not taken into account.
In my opinion, the role pattern of the law with the basis of good intention in it is now being reversed. Well-meaning intelligent people have to act like a dead thing in order to comply with the law.
I'm very curious what you think about that at the Embassy? My feeling tells me, something is not right here in my case. Although I understand what is not quite right here, something of human aggressive powerlessness floats to the surface in me. Because the clear fact is, I am human…
My hope now rests on an answer built on facts and on wisdom within your Embassy?
With kind regards,
Chris Visser Sr.
Johan Christian Visser
Goren in Delft 2 February 1943
Father of four sons and a daughter.
Grandfather of twelve grandchildren.
For me there is only one law, the law of nature!
Therefore, create space between the result of survival instinct and confidence in the future.
Trust and pure loving intelligence are the building blocks of our Beautiful planet Earth!
Grandpa Chris,
That's very brave of you to do what you did. Because you insist on the human feelings of the very businesslike officials, you deserve respect.
I am sure that the "people" among the bureaucrats will certainly show their human feelings.
Deep respect.
Chander
Are you sure? You really think that a muddled letter ensures that the clear legislation is set aside?
Brave of your Grandpa Chris. And you're absolutely right. Because of all the rules, the human side is often forgotten. Because exceptions confirm the rules, an exception should certainly be made every now and then.
Incidentally, it is not entirely clear to me why the visa was rejected. What is the reason? You also say that you have already purchased the tickets. Here on Thailandblog and in Rob V.'s Schengen visa file it is stated that it is better not to purchase your airline tickets first. The embassy does not ask that either.
Well, I hope it works out for you anyway. If that doesn't work, you can also try whether KLM wants to be lenient and wants to rebook your tickets free of charge or give a refund.
Nice story, you can work on feelings, but I advise you to stick to the facts.
The key question, I think, is why was the visa application rejected on March 8?
Second question: why do you think that the application will be honored as of 2 April?
Finally, I would just like to say that the staff at the Embassy has quite some feelings, but are obliged to follow the rules. Whether they think it's fair or not is irrelevant.
Dear Grandpa Chris,
Of course this is very annoying because you have no bad intentions. For tourists, it is assumed for the Schengen area that they come for a short period of time. Few can go on vacation (twice) for 90 days. Not only those who require a visa have a maximum stay of 90 days with the rule every period of 180 days” but also visa-exempt travelers from outside the EU, such as Americans or Australians. In that respect, ironically, the visa requirement is an advantage, because, for example, an American with the planning you specified would also be in overstay and would therefore be staying illegally in the Netherlands/Schengen.
I grabbed the official EU calculator:
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/border-crossing/schengen_calculator_en.html
At “check date” I enter the date on which I intend to travel. I leave the mode on "planning". In the fields below I enter the visa history (previous dates of stay). Then I get the following:
Control date 8/3/15. Previous stay: 8/10/14 through 10/12/14. Mode: Scheduling
– Start of 90 days period: 09/12/14
– Start of 180 days period: 10/09/14
– The stay may be authorized for up to: 26 day(s)
So you can indeed not stay here for the full 90 days. If you travel a little later, the window of 180 days will of course also shift. If I enter the following dates then 90 days stay is possible:
Control date 11/3/15. Previous stay: 8/10/14 through 10/12/14. Mode: Scheduling
Start of 90 days period: 12/12/14
Start of 180 days period: 13/09/14
The stay may be authorized for up to: 90 day(s)
A week later and your partner could have come again for 90 days. Very unpleasant of course, although it does make the importance of good preparation evident (for both visa-required and visa-required persons!!). Check whether the intended travel period is accepted and never buy a ticket before the visa has been received. If the visa requirement for Thais were to expire in the future, they would still have to deal with the rule of 90 days per every 180 days.
I hope that you will still have a pleasant stay in the Netherlands/Schengen. 90 days on, 90 days off is the easiest.
For those interested:
In the new Schengen visa rules that the committee is now working on, there will be a special “round trip” visa, with which you can travel for longer than 90 days. This is intended, for example, for non-EU seniors who want to tour Europe with their camper for six months. See:
- https://www.thailandblog.nl/nieuws-uit-thailand/europa-soepeler-regels-schengenvisum/
- http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/documents/com/com_com%282014%290164_/com_com%282014%290164_nl.pdf
– Why make it difficult when it can be done easily? And why not just prepare well before embarking on an adventure? Because let's face it: partner came back to TH on December 10th. Then there are 21 days left. January and February together have 59 days. Then I'm only at 80 pieces. If partner wants to be back in NL on March 8, another 7 will be added. In other words: the time between one and the other visa application is shorter than 90 days. This has nothing to do with loving feelings, but with facts and regulations. Anyone who wants to bring their partner from TH to NL has to take this into account, even someone without sentiments. None of it has anything to do with it.
Grandpa Chris simply did not count the days of the year and if he kept the periods at 4 x 91 days, instead of 4 periods of 90 days, the chance of success would be greater. Because doesn't a calendar year have 365 days? And how to do in a leap year?
– In addition: why the letter to the Embassy? They are the first designated to adhere to the guidelines. I think Grandpa Chris needs to talk, yes, to the airline in the hopes of moving the flight dates around and limiting the damage.
-Finally: in connection with the visa file of Rob V. it has already been mentioned that buying a ticket at the time of the application is not necessary. Proof of reservation is sufficient. The airline. always agrees if you have to wait for the result of the visa application. All a matter of communicating, informing and preparing. In short: think before you leap!
The bottom line is that you have to present a reservation ticket at the Embassy.
If you don't know how something like this works, you buy a final ticket and you're stuck with it if the Embassy says "no".
The reservation's ticket is a totally unnecessary extra burden on the already overly bureaucratic Visa application. Why a reservation ticket??? you can cancel it at any time, has no added value.
May hope that Thailand will one day become one of the countries for which the Schengen visa requirement will be abolished, but yes that will save income for the Embassy.
Nico
Two notes:
1) The flight ticket reservation is not the problem because even without a flight ticket or visa requirement, there would have been an overstay in the future (illegal stay). This overstay was now noticed by the embassy, but without a flight ticket (reservation) or visa requirement, the traveler would only have found out about this when leaving the Netherlands/Schengen. I don't think it would be a nice surprise to hear upon departure that you have violated the rule of "90 days' stay per every 180 days". As mentioned, a traveler who does not require a visa could get into trouble upon departure due to incorrect or incorrect counting of legal duration of stay. This was noted in advance precisely by submitting a flight ticket/reservation. This saves you another entry in your travel history and possibly a fine (strangely enough, there is no uniform overstay policy here: Germany seems to be very strict with sanctions, other countries, including the Netherlands, less so).
2) The requirement of a flight reservation in itself says very little, but a (more expensive) ticket can also be canceled or adjusted at low or little cost. So that is never a real guarantee, that will only become apparent when the stranger gets on the plane back home…
The list of supporting documents will be harmonized in the proposed new visa rules (see page 27 of the PDF I posted a few comments earlier). It will then be determined for each country which documentary evidence is or is not required. This list is exhaustive, no more requirements may be set. Waiting to see if the flight ticket reservation for Thailand will remain on it, although I assume it will, if only to prevent wrong planning prematurely.
Of course you can still discuss the usefulness or effectiveness of rules regarding maximum length of stay. In a perfect world with honest people, free from human trafficking, undeclared work, etc., everyone should be able to go anywhere in the world for a holiday. As long as you pay for your holiday in your own legal means, there is nothing wrong, whether you stay for 1 day or 1000 days? But then you rub shoulders with residents who are not interested in (semi) permanent guest visitors who may have a disruptive effect on society. Then you quickly end up with maximum length of stay rules. Those rules are black and white because if you accept overstay plus 1 day, why not plus 1 day after that, and after that and after that? At most, communication about when you can come again and for how long can be made more accessible. For example, on a sheet "if you want to come for the maximum duration of 90 days on your next visit, you are welcome again from...". But that will be confusing for people who have a much short follow-up visit in mind, then you will get a laundry list with dozens of scenarios “if you want to come for X days, you can do so from date Y”. Not really practical either. Then just write in bold print that the maximum length of stay is 90 days for each 180-day period and have people counted or have the authorities calculate the dates for you.
I find the NL embassy very accommodating and friendly. It is punctual, but if you play the game correctly, there is no problem. The rules have been clear for years.
Here too only good experiences with the embassy. The rules have been there for a few years, but not completely unchanged or equally clear to everyone.
For example, the reporting obligation has been abolished in various Schengen Member States (as of 1-1-14 for NL) and since 18 October 2013 they have been using a new calculation method for the length of stay, that of 90-days-per-every-180-days. Before that, the rule was that your 90 days were a bit different, although I can't remember how that went. Even now there are changes in the planning. But in general the rules have been the same for a number of years, but you can get stuck on details. So always check carefully and check the current regulations.
Personally, I think that the rules should be more flexible and less, which is actually happening little by little. People still sometimes make mistakes, there is still too much bureaucracy, etc. Further simplification and relaxation of the rules is therefore to be welcomed. Personally, I would prefer to see a visa waiver and a simple rule of thumb: a holiday (up to 90 days?) is allowed, as long as you provide for your own expenses and do not inconvenience society here. I would like to work towards that ideal little by little.
Then well-intentioned people like Grandpa Chris, you, me and partner all over the world can enjoy a nice holiday together. Will it ever come to that? Good question, but with the rotten eggs ruining it for the well-intentioned citizen, I don't see that happening for the time being...
Totally agree. The embassy can and may only follow Dutch law.
And all credit to the embassy. Last problem with stolen passport and got perfect cooperation from embassy. As long as you get your affairs in order.
An embassy is only an intermediate station to obtain a Schengen visa, but all parties involved must adhere to the applicable Schengen regulations. It is then up to the border authorities/IND whether or not a person is granted entry despite a visa sticker being issued. If it turns out that the person concerned has not complied with the 90-day period or otherwise, entry can still be refused and that is precisely why the embassy refuses the visa application so that you do not get into trouble. The suggestion to now coordinate matters with your airline, i.e. change your flight schedule, is fine and the embassy has acted in good faith in this regard. In the near future, first have the Schengen visa placed in the pp and then confirm the flight ticket. Still wishing you a nice period in the Netherlands, but a few days later...
Dear,
I deeply regret what falls to you now.
This because it could have been prevented by
a better preparation for this beautiful project.
It's a nasty experience that won't happen to you twice.
The comments on this blog give a clear picture of how it should be done.
Good luck with the sequel
If I understand correctly, this is Grandpa Chris's plan:
On day 1, grandpa Chris and Aoy want to go from NL to Thailand.
On day 90 back from Thailand to NL.
On day 180 from NL to Thailand.
On day 270 back from Thailand to NL
And on day 360 again from NL to Thailand.
Well, grandpa Chris, then the solution seems to me that you occasionally do not travel together, but that Aoy leaves NL on the right day and you, for example, 3 days later.
Then it will look like this:
On day 1, grandpa Chris and Aoy want to go from NL to Thailand together.
On day 90 back together from Thailand to NL.
On day 180 Aoy goes from NL to Thailand; grandpa Chris leaves on day 183.
On day 273 back together from Thailand to NL.
And on day 363 Aoy goes from NL to Thailand again. grandpa Chris leaves on day 366.
Well, you have to live with that, right? 2x not traveling together.
I can understand this Mr. Cris Visser very very well,
Of course rules must be set to prevent excesses, that's good.
But if you REALLY find a sweet woman at an older age, with whom you have been happily together for years, then you enter a phase in which some flexibility in the rules regarding entry and exit documents would be appropriate.
I am also over 70 and my wife is over 50 and have been married for 10 years. It is crucial at this age that you can visit your mutual family more easily, without all the paperwork.
I therefore think that RIGHT here lies a great task for the Dutch embassy to arrange this more simply for this category.
Jantje
Later in the day yesterday I realized that Chris's point was not that he was just too early and whether that couldn't be more flexible, but that the 90-day rule falls short. After all, unless you always spend 90 days here, 90 days there and the visa is well planned, you cannot travel together. A validity of 92-93 days would help, or for example 100 days for a little more leeway. You can then travel together more easily after about 3 months. Or make it "6 months - to be divided at your own discretion - per 365 days". This makes it easier to travel between two countries for long holidays.
An exception based on age seems absurd to me. Why should an elder get lenient rules? That is discriminatory and more rules/exceptions only make it more difficult for people to understand everything and not to make mistakes.