Why are bananas crooked?
With a simple example you can sometimes show big differences between unequal cultures and views. Some quickly sense where those differences are, others have to learn through trial and error and there is of course also a category of people who have no need to take the differences into account at all.
An example I would like to bring forward here is the question of the why of things. Although I don't have children myself, I think I know that Dutch children ask their parents why things are the way they are. Why is the sky blue, why do I have to go to bed already and so on. Parents find this difficult, but they understand that it is good that their children are curious, because that curiosity helps them learn all kinds of things. And we believe that our children should learn as much as possible. Even when we grow up, we keep asking ourselves why it is so and we look for an answer.
In Thailand it is very different in my experience. The upbringing there focuses primarily on the well-being of the child. A child does not have to do things it does not want to do, especially if it is a boy. A child should not necessarily eat well, but should eat a lot and above all, a child should learn to listen and not to ask too many questions. A child certainly does not need to know everything. As a result, Thai children lag far behind their peers in the West in terms of knowledge. I am mainly talking about children from what I call 'loso' backgrounds for the sake of convenience. I know less about how the richer circles operate in terms of upbringing, but I would be surprised if it was very different there.
The result of all this is reflected in the adult Thai population. Where we Westerners tend to bombard them with questions that start with 'why', thammai (ทำไม) you soon notice that people respond with resentment and that they consider that rude. As a result, people feel compelled to account for things. And when you have to give account, you feel attacked. In contact with Thais, it is primarily about good relations and a situation where everything is sanook (สนุก) and sabai sabai (สบาย ๆ). You do not achieve this by asking critical questions, but by making the other person feel that you accept him as he is. Where a Dutchman is happy when he is asked why something, because that gives him the chance to explain something to someone who is interested in his motives, a Thai will feel attacked and discomfort will arise.
You can see that Thais are much more inclined to accept things as they are. The need for change seems to be less present than among Westerners and if there is any change, it will come from outside and not through one's own actions. For example, you do something because your boss wants you to, but you're not going to ask your boss why he wants to do it, even if it's so illogical. The demand to account for actions is experienced as suspicion and lack of confidence. Westerners measure things by what is said about them. The Thai tries to form an image by thinking about what is not spoken. Undeniably, they also have a better developed sense of this. Attention is paid to the way something is said, the tone makes the music and the speaker's body language is interpreted. The Thai approach is more subtle, but more cumbersome than that of the 'blunt' Dutchman.
I prefer not to pass judgment on which approach is better, but I cannot avoid showing that I am glad to have been brought up with Western curiosity. However, I have learned not to ask direct questions in Thailand, because the result is usually counterproductive.
And even with the Western approach, I still don't know why the bananas are crooked.
This is good to know, now try to put it into practice. Why why why I sometimes get to hear.
“still don't know why the bananas are crooked”
OK, The Thai explanation… otherwise they don't fit in their shell!
The real reason, the banana grows as a compact bunch upside down on the tree, sunlight and gravity make them point upwards.
If you want to know why and how and what, see this link from a well-known name in banana land….
https://www.chiquita.nl/blog/waarom-zijn-de-bananen-krom/#:~:text=Als%20de%20plant%20naar%20het,het%20gebladerte%20uit%20kunnen%20piepen.
You are satisfied with the explanation you have given: 'Thais react like this', 'Westerners like that'.
But the deeper, next question is why Thais and Westerners would react differently…
I think the answer to that question is that the people of Thailand knew for centuries that asking questions was pointless.
Most of the population lived off their patch of land, and if it didn't rain, your harvest failed, and you went hungry, the gods had decided so.
And the gods didn't ask you why.
A good and important contribution Bram to recognize the cultural differences and applicable to daily life in Thailand. I will supplement below with my own experiences with Thai and Western culture.
For years I taught English on Saturdays to Thai people of middle age and older, most of them had children abroad and when they visited there they wanted to be able to speak some English, with son-in-law and parents. I had built up a good relationship of trust with them during my lessons, but even a teacher sometimes has a blind spot and I made a glaring mistake in conjugating the verb "to be" in the past tense. No response at all from my students. After some time, I discovered my mistake myself and confronted my students with the fact that, in case of a mistake on my part, they could of course correct me. Little or no reaction and this fits in seamlessly with Bram's story above.
Now a western variant. In the late XNUMXs I headed a recruitment and selection department at a large company.
I had an employee who started the day with a why question and ended it with that. Hopeless case to work with. No matter how much rational explanation you gave, the why question kept coming back. A why question always puts you on the defensive and makes a normal conversation of argument and against argument impossible. Is even an expression of disrespect in some situations.
Hopefully these two examples will contribute to the insight of the cultural differences between one culture and the other, which are also still manifest.
My wife has been living in the Netherlands for 4 years now, and in the beginning she also went crazy with my questions why, why, but now she has realized that by asking questions you become wiser and you should not take everything for granted.
She now also goes against a manager on my advice if she thinks it is necessary, because I gave her that example by talking to her manager and she saw that problems are solved without adversely affecting the working relationship.
And gradually she too becomes a questioner, so there is still hope for Thailand.
very nice article, and well written
Maarten
The problem is this: why questions are often not real 'why questions' but more or less critical comments. That is often experienced. Of course that doesn't have to be the case.
Why are you so late?
Why isn't the food ready yet?
Why did you park the car there?
Why didn't you buy any fish?
Why are you wearing that yellow blouse again?
Why are you drunk again, mom?
That is also the reason why in the Netherlands such a why question is often answered with 'Therefore!' Or "Why do you want to know?" Also in the Netherlands why questions are not always appreciated. No idea how much difference there is with Thailand. Personally, I don't think much. These kinds of questions are often not experienced as fun (sanoek) in the Netherlands either.
You can also ask or say it like this:
You're late, say! Did something happen? I was worried.
I'm hungry! Let's prepare the food.
You parked the car all the way there! Warer closer no space then?
Buy fish next time. I like that.
Hello, that yellow flower again? I like that red blouse much better.
Stop drinking, mom! Please!
That makes the conversation so much more pleasant.
If you do ask a why question, fine, but first explain what you mean, a short introduction. 'I see..I hear.. that's why I would like to know what..how..etc. Then you will always get a reasonably good answer. Also in Thailand.
I live in France and have to conclude that here in the socially vertical society, asking why to several (teachers, lecturers, employers) is not done. This already starts at school. To obey is virtue. As a result, classes (struggles) etc. arise and dialogue is not learned. Working together is only possible with 'equals'. So to say that Western society can handle the why better is, in my opinion, generalizing. Fortunately, people in Thailand care a lot about the well-being of the other. Enjoy that.
“why” is the first step to the Nobel Prize.
Hello Bram,
Thoroughly enjoyed today's entry.
And I must underline that it is absolutely correct.
And, curious as my nature is, I also want to know/ask everything!!
Chaantje then says: “you no sepiek” hahaa
Dear Alex, the differences are programming in a specific way from childhood.
And you don't just change that later in life.
Nice Thai song with a lot of thammai, Why! "Why don't you love me anymore?"
https://youtu.be/WtKseK9PX7A
I've adapted to that for a long time and resigned myself to it. In Thailand I only ask and say what is necessary, also with my wife with whom I have been together for 12 years. I actually say as little as possible and only ask useful, very appropriate questions. I don't tell much about past experiences or about my past. If I go somewhere, I will only tell something about it if my wife specifically asks for it. If she doesn't ask anything then I won't tell anything. Thai people would rather tell too little than too much. If you don't ask anything, nothing will be told.
Rarely have I known that when I drive somewhere and walk in I am asked profound questions. Actually never. Never before has a Thai asked me anything about my country nor about my motives nor about my career, nothing at all. Apart from my wife, not a single Thai person knows anything about my family and I have never been asked about it. The only thing she seems to care about and I know that through my wife is how my finances are.
On the other hand, that total disinterest in our doings is perhaps precisely the reason for the relaxed atmosphere that prevails here. Everyone leaves you alone. No one comes to disturb you undesirably, no one is intrusive.
I've been to enough other countries where their pushiness almost drove me crazy.
I like it all the best.
That's also my experience. Sometimes I think they have no interest at all in what you do. I travel a lot by bicycle. The only thing a Thai asks if it was fun. That's all
Dear Fred,
You focus, but the message is clear: you are not asked much about yourself and your life, and you have found a practical way to deal with this: ask few questions yourself, go your own way, also within relationships and family.
I recognize this well. I have lived in the countryside for fifteen years and speak Thai enough to communicate in it, I deal with all neighbors and other fellow villagers in a good atmosphere. But not very confidential.
A simple example. Everyone knows that I have worked in education in Africa – which always generates interest elsewhere. I have NEVER been asked: what motivated me, what I did, in which country, in which language. The only question repeatedly asked spontaneously concerned the game: lions, elephants, camels. And furthermore: wasn't it dangerous (read: between the black people)?
The fact that I lived with a young man from the village was of course seen and accepted, also by family, mainly because I seemed to have a 'favorable' influence on him, a wild boy. But all that also remained undiscussed. Once a neighbor asked why we didn't sleep in one room...
All this is difficult for a verbal person like me to grasp, but it has been decisive for my trouble-free life in the village.
Sometimes I think, isn't living in another culture served by giving the other a lot of freedom, from and to both sides?
And then you also have the 'why' as a lamentation:
Why did you leave me?
Why was I so stupid?
Those why questions don't ask for an answer, only empathy.
This comment should actually be above, April 8, 13.20:XNUMX PM. Sorry.
Alex,
If I tell a Dutchman that I worked in Tanzania for 3 years and lived in Thailand for almost twenty years, very rarely will anyone question me further: 'Tell me, how was that then?' My point is that it depends not so much on the national character as on the two personalities who are talking to each other.
Of course, it certainly depends on the personalities as well.
That it “depends not so much on the national character” – how do you know that anyway?
I didn't talk about country nature. only about my observation with ALL fellow villagers I have been in contact with.
More generally, two countries differ in many respects, including degree and nature of contacts with foreign countries and foreigners, travel experience, history, religion (how does one view the other?)
That the personality stands out in this respect, in comparison with what is called "the national character" (a term I do not easily use myself) - it could be, but it seems to me premature to present this as a fact. It strikes me as a friendly-sounding generality for now.
Quite a coincidence, Tino, that in our Thai environments (university and village), according to your 'theory', Chris and I mainly encounter personalities who do not ask questions and Chris in the Netherlands mainly people who are interested.
What does the methodologist in you and me think about this?
Well, dear Alex, it could well be my and your personality with a pinch of country character, customs and language skills.
My point was that all those differences are usually credited solely to the all-encompassing culture while I also look at personalities in conversations and opinions in this one. I don't know how much of each, it will vary.
Again: my experience is that I also encountered few personalities in the Netherlands who were interested in my background. That could very well be me, I don't know.
And coincidence is indeed often turned into a law.
I have learned that now and keep my mouth shut as much as possible. It makes life more bearable, not much better and I struggle with it sometimes. Anyway… I can more or less do whatever I want at home, as long as I don't touch the fingers of other females….
The answer to: why are the bananas crooked, can be found in the song by Andre Van Duin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpfDp04DgUc%5D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpfDp04DgUc
Completely agree with the writer. You can only get further if you speak the Thai language well. The interest is generally hard to find with my Thai acquaintance here. In the meantime I understand quite a bit of the Thai language, but it is always the same thing that is used and that does not stimulate me to get involved. Shame among the Thai may also have its part in this event. No one gets very far in life with limited knowledge and interests. We will have to make do with it, but pleasant is different.
Jacques, after the years that I have lived here, I have also understood that unfortunately one does not have to go to the average Thai to have an in-depth conversation. During the family gatherings, one does nothing more than gossip about the others. I absolutely do not participate in such behavior. I usually keep aloof and when people ask me questions they are indeed usually very superficial.
Now, with many Farangs among themselves, you come across the same thing. Tough bar talk, meaningless conversations are everyday phenomena. This is also the reason that I have almost no contact with any foreigner.
This does not alter the fact that I would feel lonely. I have enough interests and I'm hardly bored. Fortunately I have my computer and internet, take this away from me then I would talk differently I'm afraid.
You often encounter the latter among pensioners living in Thailand. Without the internet they would be cut off from the outside world. Poor actually. But one more reason to become somewhat powerful in the Thai language. Why not? I also didn't have in-depth conversations in the Netherlands when I went shopping, exercising or chatting with the neighbors. Most of the speaking time with others we talk about small talk.
I have 12 years of experience in academic education in the Netherlands (with international students, approximately 40% Dutch) and now 14 years in academic education in Thailand (with 95% Thai students). And I can assure you that the difference in questions (and curiosity) is as the crow flies.
In the Netherlands, students asked questions during the lecture, or afterwards via online channels. In Thailand, with a sharp increase in the number of question options (online, telephone, apps) hardly anyone. It is not so much a national difference as a cultural difference. Students from Asian countries (not China, because they always ask questions) quickly learned in the Netherlands that you can and may ask questions. And that the teacher appreciates that. In an educational culture (which is part of a broader parenting culture that starts at home) that does not value asking questions and experiences it as difficult, children are not encouraged to do so and therefore remain relatively stupid.
I always tell my students that the smart student asks questions and that's one of the reasons that student is so smart. And I'm not even talking about subjects that are taboo in this country.
In addition, there is a tendency not to ask (continue) because knowing the answer is uncomfortable. Imagine if a good friend of yours was in the bar in Thong Lor and probably recognized the two ministers. Do you ask that friend about it the next day? Don't think so because you don't want to know.
Yes, but that applies to more countries and has nothing to do with culture. Knowing is not appreciated everywhere in the world. We know from countries like China, Russia, Egypt, Turkey, Mahgreb, Asean, etc. that knowing is/can be dangerous. Close your eyes and close your beaks. So politically. The fact that children are taught in Thailand that asking questions is not done does not make them stupid, but it preserves their freedom. Preservation of life in these countries!
Recently I was in the hospital for an examination and I asked the doctor what was necessary. My sweetheart sat next to me and looked at me angrily and afterwards I had to pay for it. That doctor was not waiting for questions, you don't do that and this phenomenon does not only occur during a doctor's visit, I can share. Every time I come up with the why question, with this or that one, the lady is angry and rarely if ever an answer comes. Where that anger comes from, I now know after more than 20 years. It took a while.
Andre van duin once explained in a song why the bananas are crooked (*_*)
https://youtu.be/1RyRRjl39rI
I have also noticed that the Thai avoids questions about why, but I have another explanation for it
(giving explanations, another hobby of Westerners that Thais are less concerned with.)
The Thai, like others from Buddhist cultures, lives to a large extent "in the here and now", which they have all learned in their upbringing and indeed that way of life ensures acceptance, being inward-looking, not worrying so much about things that have not yet happened, and happiness (absence of suffering.)
Westerners see this as avoidance behavior, as 'not looking ahead' and 'not planning' and just letting everything happen to you. The Thai don't.
Living in the 'here and now' is not the same as avoiding behavior. It doesn't happen automatically. You have to actively 'maintain' that.
And here it comes: every 'why' question forces the one who lives in the 'here and now' to go back into the 'cause and effect' chain of his thought stream, and lose his comfortable, carefree, happy state of mind. here and now' and they are irritated about that.
Anyone who practices meditation will recognize this. (apart from maybe the irritation)
Actually, it means that they are not firmly in their 'here and now' shoes. A Monk with a lot of meditation experience will not react so irritated. To put it in a very popular way: All Thais are more or less conditioned to become 'little Buddies', but they are quickly disturbed in this (for example by asking why), only a few succeed.
In that sense it is quite similar to Western (Christian) culture where attempts are made to turn everyone into 'little Jesuses', which very few have succeeded in doing.
Secularization and materialism have changed this more (faster) in the Western world than in Asia
Perhaps, in parallel with this topic, we can make a comparison between the behavior of a Dutch person and that of a Belgian.
We are neighbors, speak almost the same language, but are still so different.
Even on our blog, which is frequently visited by members of both cultures, you can in many cases distinguish a Belgian from a Dutch person and vice versa. I have experienced that many times 😉
An interesting study object…
Thai culture ensures that Thais do not develop critical and questioning intelligence.
This has many far-reaching consequences.
That education in Thailand is often mediocre.
That you have to go to the town hall for simple matters and then have to wait three hours for your turn.
That hospitals do not have an appointment system.
That traffic lights are not made intelligent and remain on at night.
And so on, in summary:
That Thailand's economic development is seriously lagging behind what is possible because society as a whole is not critical enough.
What is sometimes a shame is that you cannot have serious, let alone in-depth, conversations with a Thai.
I have been with my wife for many years now and I still experience their narrow-minded way of thinking every day. Serious topics are never discussed.
If she ever comes up with a story, I say in my heart, “but girl, that doesn't interest me at all,” but I don't let it show. When I follow the conversations with her family, it makes me cry. Apart from a lot of gossip and evidence of jealousy, there is little to do. Is that a lack of intelligence? I would not know.
I have a cousin in the family who speaks English quite well, a sensible guy. But when I even ask him a serious question I never get an answer. I'm always curious about what he learns at school, but to this day I still don't know. Next year he will start university studies (technical direction) – which is totally my thing – but I fear that I will learn very little there too.
The result is that I pretty much live in my own bubble. I am a technician, I like crafts, DIY, computers (including programming) and even gardening. But I experience all this on my own because I don't get any nice input from others. It's a shame, I miss that.