Deregistration from the Netherlands
Fortunately, Charly's life is full of pleasant surprises (unfortunately sometimes also less pleasant ones). For several years now he has lived with his Thai wife Teoy in a resort not far from Udonthani. In his stories, Charly mainly tries to raise awareness of Udon, but he also discusses many other things in Thailand.
Charly and unsubscribe from the Netherlands
In 2019 I decided to deregister permanently in the Netherlands. You shouldn't underestimate that. A simple letter to the municipality in the Netherlands where you are registered is absolutely not sufficient.
Because I suspect that there are more Dutch people staying in Thailand who are considering deregistering, I am listing below the actions that I have taken. Might be useful for those people who might also want to unsubscribe.
In preparation for my deregistration, the following actions have been taken:
- Health insurance taken out with AXA Global Health Plan. Worldwide coverage, excluding USA.
- A Euro bank account opened at the Bangkok Bank (see my separate posting about that). I have opened that Euro bank account so that the administrator of my occupational pension can transfer my pension directly in Euros.
This is nice because it shows how much pension you have received in a year with a simple overview to the Thai tax authorities.
- I hired a Thai lawyer to draw up my will (is ready and completed), for the translation of various documents (he is also a sworn translator) and for the application for a Thai Identification Number at the Thai tax authorities. This in preparation for an income tax return 2019 with the Thai tax authorities.
Direct actions for deregistration from the Netherlands
- Email sent to my municipality with all requested information plus my new home address + copy of my passport. This information is also sent by post to my municipality.
The municipality sends an extremely short message back. “We acknowledge receipt of your deregistration and have processed it”.
For the document confirming my deregistration, I am referred to one of the RNI municipalities (RNI = Registration Not Resident). In this case, the municipality of The Hague.
All information provided to my municipality was again put on paper and sent to the RNI department of the municipality of The Hague. After payment of the fee (approximately Euro 16), received a response that the International extract of civil status and nationality has been sent by post to my address in Thailand.
- Informed the SVB (AOW) about my new situation (via their website “my SVB”).
Also all data, plus copy of letter to my municipality + copy of passport also sent by letter to the SVB. Received confirmation from the SVB.
- Email sent to my Dutch health insurance with the request to terminate this insurance per 01.01.2020. Request for additional information received. Information sent and then received notification that insurance has been discontinued as of 01.01.2020.
- Informed the administrator of my company pension about my change of address and also requested that my pension in euros be transferred to my Euro account at the Thailand bank in the future.
Confirmation received.
- Change of address passed on to my two Dutch banks.
My new address in Thailand and my postal address in the Netherlands.
As a direct result, the tax rules you are dealing with also change. No longer owed tax in the Netherlands, but from now on file a tax return and make payment in Thailand. This also does not just happen by itself. About 2019, I will now, together with my Thai lawyer, soon file the 2019 income tax return at the Udon tax office. We are still waiting for a statement from the Bangkok Bank, in which all changes for 2019 have been processed.
The declaration form has essentially already been filled in completely. Just waiting for supporting evidence from the Bangkok Bank. After the 2019 IB declaration with the Thai tax authorities, I already have the Thai Identification Number at my disposal.
After checking the tax return by the head office in Bangkok, you will receive an RO22. You use the latter, the RO22 plus the Thai Identification Number, to convince the Dutch tax authorities that Thailand is your country of residence for tax purposes. On the basis of this, reclaim the payroll tax and social insurances from my company pension and the social insurances from my AOW withheld in 2019.
In addition, apply for an exemption for 2020 for wage tax and social security contributions for the company pension.
All in all, quite a few actions, but after that you will most likely have no more nagging. Perhaps with the exception of the Dutch tax authorities, which would surprise me the least.
All relevant parties are aware of the new situation and, where appropriate, you can safely refer to the confirmation they have sent themselves.
For this reason, always request written confirmation.
“For the document confirming my deregistration, I am referred to one of the RNI municipalities (RNI = Registration Not Resident). In this case, the municipality of The Hague.”
I've never heard of that and so far everything has been going well for years - but who knows what the future will bring.
“For 2019, I will now, together with my Thai lawyer, soon file the 2019 income tax return at the Udon tax office. We are still waiting for a statement from the Bangkok Bank, in which all changes for 2019 have been processed.”
You can do that yourself, but it may be easier with a lawyer.
At the RO22, immediately ask for the RO21.
I don't recall ever using either form, but they seem to belong together.
One form confirms your address and the other confirms your tax payment.
They can make the bank statement directly at the office.
At least at the Kasikorn bank it is.
@ruud
I had also never heard of the RNI municipalities in the Netherlands. But in response to my deregistration from the municipality where I was registered, I was referred to the RNI municipalities, in case I wanted written confirmation of my deregistration. I then asked the municipality of The Hague for that official confirmation and against payment of around Euro 16, they did indeed send it to me. So you see, never too old to learn.
You write “I have never heard of that and so far everything has been going well for years”. What do you mean?
You normally unsubscribe once and you're done. So I don't understand "everything has been going well for years" in this context.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
I don't have a form RNI municipalities and no one has ever asked for it.
So that's going well.
But it is possible that in the future someone will ask about it, and then I have a problem, because then I don't have it.
I deregistered from my municipality (a large village, so probably without RNI) and that was it.
@ruud
You can always request an extract of your deregistration from one of the designated RNI municipalities, against payment of a fee (approximately EUR 16). This extract contains your names, date of birth, marital situation, names of father and mother, and the date on which you were deregistered.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
rni municipality is important if you want to vote as a Dutch citizen. Then you will receive a message and ballot paper.
Also don't forget to sign up for DIGID the government message box but only for computer DO NOT install the app, much too cumbersome.
And report to the embassy in Bangkok.
And, not unimportant but useful, an unpopular subject: describe what you want to do in the event of a serious illness or accident and deposit it with your hospital. And include that in your will, otherwise you will automatically return to NL.
Hospital you want to deposit? You do that with a lawyer because a hospital is not an administrative office and you can end up in another hospital and then? If you are married, the partner can decide, after all, you are family. And if family in the Netherlands decides that you can be cremated in Thailand, you can.
It remains that 80% of Dutch residents have a funeral policy. However, after living abroad for a number of months or longer, you / family can no longer derive any rights from it. Then it is better to buy it off and voluntarily continue the construction yourself so that the funeral costs are covered.
Dear Charlie,
Impressive all those steps.
But I do have some questions.
Has your income tax return in Thailand for 2019 been accepted yet? I think that is very fast??
are you sure that your deducted payroll tax/contribution from AOW and pension will be refunded according to the tax laws and treaties, with only the RO22 and your Thai tax ID number? Isn't there a catch here?
How high is the tax on income from previous work in Thailand? Are there also such things as tax brackets?
Greetings Janderk
@janderk
Good read dude. It concerns the wage tax and social security contributions withheld from my occupational pension and possibly also the social security contributions withheld from my AOW. The payroll tax on my state pension will remain in Dutch hands. Furthermore, no snakes in the grass, except that the Dutch tax authorities are once again being faintly obstructive. You know, we can't make it any simpler, but we're devilishly good at making it as difficult as possible.
I am taxable in Thailand for 2019 because I lived in Thailand for the most part in that year.
And the tax treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand states that no double taxation may take place. So if I have paid tax in Thailand, the Netherlands is obliged to refund the withheld wage tax, etc. to me.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Charly writes “…And the tax treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand states that no double taxation may take place. So if I have paid tax in Thailand, the Netherlands is obliged to refund the deducted wage tax, etc. to me….”
That text as in Charly's first sentence is not in the treaty. It has also been repeatedly explained in this blog that the treaty between NL and TH lacks the social paragraph that is so important in this context. Both countries may tax the AOW; for possible reduction in NL: see national legislation.
As far as the RNI is concerned, I agree with Antonietta's text. I personally reported to the municipality at the time; Registration in the RNI was also automatic for me.
Thanks Carly, but so far everything is clear to me.
ONLY is there someone who can tell me what the income tax rates (in %) are in Thailand on income from previous employment???.
Groet
Janderk
Janderk, this is a link.
Thailand has no special rate for pensions, you are taxed for the regular rate. Disk 1 is 150 k baht at zero percent, and then it slowly increases in steps.
Take into account deductions on the income (50% max 100.000), a personal exemption for the taxpayer of 60 k, the 190 k deduction if 64+ or disabled, and then there is still a deduction possible for non-working spouse, children, support for in-laws , building up an estate and donations for the maintenance of royal palaces and gardens……
https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2011/12/thailand-income-tax.html
Too much to mention but you can get an impression.
I already did my tax return in Thailand last week.
Forms RO21 and RO22 are on their way.
Charly
I foresee some bears on your way as a non-tax expert.
If you have deregistered as of 1-1-2020, you are always liable for tax in NL in my opinion about 2019.
And as for your comment about social premiums that expire in the event of deregistration from NL, the SVB and pension funds also know this and do not deduct it after the deregistration date.
Looking forward to your further findings
@tooske
The formal deregistration as of 01.01.2020 has no effect on the tax liability for 2019.
There are many reasons why you have not already applied for an exemption in 2019.
I don't think one excludes the other.
If you can also demonstrate that you are liable to pay tax in Thailand for 2019, I think it is then a piece of cake to reclaim those taxes for 2019 from the Netherlands.
That's right, in 2020 the SVB will no longer deduct social insurance from my AOW.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Yes, but you can also turn your reasoning around, because you have already paid taxes in NL, Thailand does not have to levy, who will get the longest end of the stick?
Once given remains given, they think firmly in Heerlen.
would love to hear the result in this one.
Greetings
Charly, despite your detailed description and clear step-by-step plan, thank you for that, I still have some questions on my part. You have your company pension transferred to the Euro account at your Thai bank, is your Aow benefit still credited to a Dutch bank account? By the way, what response did you receive from your two Dutch banks after you notified them of a change of address? I also wonder if you suffer a lot of exchange rate loss when exchanging euros to baht from your Euro account at the Bangkok Bank. You also mention that you want to reclaim the amounts withheld from your AOW with regard to social insurance from the Dutch tax authorities. Now I thought that when you are officially deregistered, the SVB no longer includes a contribution to the Healthcare Insurance Act. Am I wrong about that? Looking forward to your answers, have a nice evening of course.
@Leo Th
My AOW benefit is credited to a Dutch bank account. My 2 Dutch bank accounts have my Thai address and a postal address in the Netherlands. No nasty letters have been received from those 2 Dutch banks about this.
I can't make any sensible statements about possible price losses / price gains yet. That journey has only just begun.
In 2019, social security contributions were, rightly so, deducted from my state pension. I am trying to reclaim it, given my tax liability in Thailand for 2019.
In 2020, the SVB rightly no longer deducts social security contributions from my state pension.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Thank you for your response Charlie. I assumed that you had wrongly assumed that you had already withdrawn the amount deposited by your pension fund into your Thai Euro account. Hence my question about possible exchange rate loss. One thing is not entirely clear to me yet, but that could be just me. You write that you intend, among other things, to reclaim the Health Insurance Act premium deducted by the SVB in 2019 from the Dutch tax authorities after your 2019 return has been processed by the Thai tax authorities. In your response to Lammert de Haan, you state that your state pension will be paid into a Dutch bank account, where it will also remain. Therefore, you are of the opinion that you do not have to pay tax on it in Thailand and, logically, I assume that it is therefore not mentioned on your Thai return. Is it still possible to reclaim the relevant ZVW premium for 2019 if you disregard the AOW on your tax return in Thailand? Charly, understand me correctly, it is quite privacy-sensitive data. I only ask you the question because of a certain degree of interest, but of course it is entirely up to you whether or not to answer it. Of course you don't have to justify yourself to me or other readers of Thailandblog. Enjoy your years in Thailand!
Useful article.
Can you also share the further developments please?
As far as deregistration is concerned, the data is automatically passed on to the RNI. You only need to contact us if you want an extract.
Deregister with the municipality
You must deregister from the municipality where you live. You can do this from 5 days before your departure (and not before). Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays count in the 5-day period.
You must unsubscribe personally. The municipality will provide proof of deregistration at your request. You use this proof, for example, when you register abroad.
After deregistration from the BRP as a resident, the overview with your personal data (list of persons) will move to the non-resident section of the BRP. This is also called the Registration of non-residents (RNI). This is the registration of persons who have not lived in the Netherlands for more or less than 4 months.
https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/privacy-en-persoonsgegevens/vraag-en-antwoord/uitschrijven-basisregistratie-personen
Don't you have to fill in an M-billet for the Dutch tax authorities? I emigrated to Thailand in 2019 and have to file a declaration for that year via that M-billet. That is quite complex. I have it taken care of by a specialized tax office. They do everything digitally for me.
@Taruud
I'll have to wait for that. As soon as the Thai taxes for 2019 are paid, I will contact the Dutch tax authorities. And indeed, I expect that I will have to fill in an M form for 2019.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
If you have deregistered via the municipality, the data will automatically be forwarded to a number of authorities, including the tax authorities. This service will then send an M form to the postal address provided in the year in which the declaration must be submitted. The M-note is 28 pages thick. One of the first questions is about the date of emigration. That date determines which period of the tax year is the “Dutch period” and which is the foreign one. Subsequently, all items of the declaration will be divided over the Dutch period and the foreign period. Different rules apply over those two periods with regard to the tax to be claimed in the Netherlands. The tax authorities therefore calculate what you owe on that basis. Depending on any provisional assessment that has already been paid, you will probably receive an amount back for the period abroad.
Dear Charlie,
On what date were you legally deregistered in the Netherlands. Is this as I read it 01-01-2020.
Then I have to suggest that you do not file a tax return in Thailand for 2019. Then you pay tax twice. You will not receive a tax refund from the Netherlands before the date of deregistration.
There is also a tax treaty between Thailand and the Netherlands whereby the Netherlands continues to pay the income tax of the AOW, but also of the ABP fund if you have a pension from it.
You can apply for a tax exemption from company pension funds. But given the many posts on this Thailand blog, it is a difficult road.
In the future, these company pension funds will also become taxable in the Netherlands.
Regards, Peter A
@Peter A
I do not see a direct connection between being legally deregistered in the Netherlands and the tax obligation. There are many reasons why you have to pay tax in a country other than the Netherlands, without being officially deregistered from the Netherlands. One is completely separate from the other. As a deregistered person from the Netherlands, it is of course simple to demonstrate that you no longer have any tax obligations in the Netherlands. But even if not written out, that is certainly demonstrable.
We are in complete agreement about the AOW.
Exemption from payroll tax and social security contributions on company pensions is not that difficult in itself. Only the Dutch tax authorities try to trick you every time. Make sure you have your affairs in order, and then even the Dutch tax authorities cannot stop you. Not in the future either.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
@Bram
Thank you for your additions for the benefit of the Belgian readers, because indeed, I am of course concerned with DUTCH tax legislation.
And you rightly point out that TIN stands for TAX IDENTIFICATION NUMBER.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Do not recognize anything in the above, perhaps because I (only) moved to Germany. Just let me unsubscribe, that was done in 10 minutes. 3 days later I reported in Cologne and had it registered. That was all.
“For example, the arrangement of the tax treaty concluded between the Netherlands and Thailand differs very essentially from the tax treaty concluded between Belgium and Thailand”
You rightly pointed that out, Bram, and it is certainly important for the Belgian readers.
In the Treaty for the avoidance of double taxation concluded by the Netherlands with Thailand, the levying of private pensions and annuity benefits is reserved to Thailand.
This does not apply to the Treaty concluded between Belgium and Thailand. Belgium retains the right to tax on income obtained from Belgium. This Treaty therefore deviates strongly from the OECD model treaty.
Charly also talks about the fact that his state pension benefit is taxable in the Netherlands, but not about the fact that this benefit is also taxable in Thailand. At the end of last year he posted a message in Thailand Blog, indicating that he wanted to keep his state pension benefits outside the PIT, not realizing that he was committing tax fraud in Thailand.
Your comment regarding the TIN is also correct. Charly also wants to send his Thai TIN to the Tax Office / Foreign Office. However, that makes no sense. This TIN does not indicate that he is a tax resident of Thailand. He can only demonstrate this with a recent tax return with accompanying assessment for the PIT (RND91), the “Statement of tax liability in the country of residence” RO22) or with the Thai statement RO21. As for my Thai customers, I always prefer the statement RO22.
If Charly decides to move to Timbuktu in Mali next month, he will also receive a TIN there. Subsequently, he may not choose between his Dutch TIN (his BSN) or the Thai or Malian TIN.
@Lammert de Haan
I am glad that you, as a tax expert, are also participating in this discussion. I fully share your comments towards Bram.
We have different opinions about my state pension. I have my AOW paid out to a Dutch bank account and it stays there. So I don't transfer those amounts to Thailand and I don't think I owe Thai tax on it.
So there is absolutely no question of tax fraud here. It's a pity that you wish to bring this into the limelight as such. As a respected tax expert, it does damage you. Shame.
In my posting I tell that with my TIN code EN RO 22 form I will convince the Dutch tax authorities that I am taxable in Thailand. So from now on please read carefully what I write Mr Lammert de Haan. I don't write anywhere that the TIN code would be sufficient.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
You also commit fraud if you live in Thailand for more than 183 days a year and do not file a Thai tax return. Tell the Thai tax authorities that you have been living here for 5 years (you wrote in an earlier posting) but only file a tax return from 2019. Charly applies what suits him best.
@Ger Korat
Nothing human is strange to Charly dear Ger. And the fact that I have been living here for several years does not mean that I do not meet the Thai requirements. It is possible that I spent less than 180 days in Thailand during those years.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Ger Korat
With all due respect, Ger-Korat, I see a lot of contributions from you that seem unsympathetic to say the least. Often pedantic and criticizing the poster. Don't do that, keep it positive.
Moderator: Also a request to Ger-Korat to moderate the tone. Otherwise, we are unfortunately forced to no longer post such comments from you.
Unfortunately I do not agree with the view of you and Henk.
Already in the first sentence of the article it is written that Charly has been living in Thailand for a number of years and that includes obligations to Thailand AND the Netherlands. According to Thai law, you must file a tax return if you stay in Thailand for more than 183 days. The same also applies to the Netherlands, which means that you are officially resident in ONE of the two countries. Rightly so that Ger_Korat points this out. The will that is written about certainly does not belong in a hospital but with a lawyer (they do not know a notary in Thailand). Suppose you end up in a hospital in the interior where there is little knowledge of these matters, your partner or friends must arrange that. In my opinion, Ger_Korat's comments are justified.
If we can't post neat and critical posts here, there's no point in discussing.
Moderator: Of course you can be critical, but it's the tone that makes the music. In addition, Charly takes the trouble to write an article. He can also sit back and criticize others, it's not that hard. Sticking your neck out and writing an article is.
If Ger_korat knows it all so well, then he should write and submit a piece himself, then you show guts.
The funny thing is that Thailand doesn't do anything with it!
There are many, of all nationalities, who use the legal possibilities in their own country to take a long winter break in TH. For residents of NL this is 4 months at home and 8 months away. The only body that sometimes wants to interfere is the SVB, which would like to know whether they can check your living situation because of the amount of the benefit. After all, there are countries without a BEU treaty.
Thailand does have the tax check when leaving the country. About six years ago I posted a comment about it here, in this blog, and none of the writing core had ever had to deal with it. Neither do I and I now do 4+8 if the schedule allows.
But if a civil servant were to measure millimeters, he/she could make it very difficult for you.
After all, you are obliged to file a tax return if you are in this country for more than 179 days in a calendar year (together, not necessarily consecutive). Incidentally, if you are 64+ or disabled, you are then entitled to all the tax bells and whistles that a longstayer of 64+ also has, which means that, estimated, the first 5 tons of baht INCOME you have brought in will not lead to a levy. I currently have no information about the sanction for not filing a declaration; maybe someone of you knows.
But this is Thailand; if they take a closer look, there will be so much work and so much angry comment on social media that people will abandon the intention. You know how sensitive tourism is in this country.
But what is your objection, Ger, to applying what is most beneficial? In principle, nobody wants to be a thief of their own wallet, but due to complicated laws / regulations, many can no longer see the wood for the trees and simply accept an existing situation. Charly takes a different approach and has visited a lawyer to advise and assist him with his Thai tax return. Multinationals are no different. Several times I have read on Thailand blog that compatriots who have been staying in Thailand for a long time have tried in vain to file a tax return in Thailand. Were sent away saying it was not necessary. As a result, they may pay proportionally more tax in the Netherlands than necessary. How long Charly lives in Thailand and how many days a year I would not and need not know. I do know that he paid tax to the Dutch tax authorities up to and including 2019, of which you could conclude in retrospect that that was probably not the most favorable thing for him.
@Leo Th.
Completely agree with you. I too have read many times here that pensioners knock in vain at the Thai tax authorities to be regarded as a taxable person.
I didn't want that to happen to me. Hence the involvement of my Thai lawyer, who can also be used for all kinds of other activities, because he is also a sworn translator.
My mistake is that I unsubscribed on 01.01.2020 instead of on 31.12.2019.
But I'm just going to fight with the Dutch tax authorities. See what their showstoppers are, and see if I can get around them.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Don't understand that fraud.
With me, in Chiangmai, they only look at what I have transferred to Thailand in terms of income. For this I must submit a signed and stamped bank statement from the bank account into which I booked the transfers from NL, for the relevant year, to the Revenue Office.
For the sake of clarity, I receive my pensions and AOW on a NL account and then transfer what I want to spend in Thailand. Often enough, my company pension is enough to live on in Thailand.
I enjoy Charly's contributions every time. Well-formulated and instructive. Many benefit from this.
In particular, apply for the exemptions in good time at your tax office. a decision can take months to arrive and you will continue to pay in the Netherlands for all that time. And asking back after the decision is not an option. They first want certainty that you have actually left for a long time. the 10 year term.
@Bob,
Disagree with you Bob. Wage tax and social premiums already withheld can always be reclaimed via the income tax return (or M form).
Yours faithfully,
Charly
Charlie,
You deregistered from the health insurance act on 1-1-2020, they can catch you on that. Or you knowingly committed fraud or made improper use of social services in the Netherlands.
I think the tax authorities assume the first deregistration, whether or not you have done and paid tax in Thailand does not matter to the Dutch tax authorities. The Dutch tax authorities may simply levy taxes and social security contributions over 2019, after all you were not deregistered.
Hope you're successful, but I doubt it.
Roel, I share your doubt. Deregistration only in 2020 means emigration in 2020 and therefore only an M form for income tax 2020. Then you do not fall under the scope of the treaty in 2019 and you are simply liable for domestic tax.
Or topic starter should mean that he will invoke the national regulation to prevent double taxation. He has my blessing, I'm curious. But there are limits to that reduction.
Which also means that Charly can only expect an M form for the 2021 tax year in spring 2020. As for 2019, he is out of the boat.
Charly apparently invokes article 4 paragraph 3 of the treaty (the residence article) with effect from the year 2019 and that without deregistering from NL because he only did so in 2020. He has the right to try that; I predict a tough discussion with Heerlen and possibly years of legal proceedings. I hope he will let us continue to be part of this fiscal adventure.
@Eric
I will try to post the sequel here on thailandblog as well.
I am also curious how the Dutch tax authorities will respond.
In retrospect, it was a bit stupid to unsubscribe from 01.01.2020. Would have been better as of 31.12.2019.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
@Roel
In my opinion, the time of formal deregistration is not decisive in this.
There can be many reasons why someone officially deregisters later.
I give an example. Someone leaves for Thailand in early January 2019 with the intention of returning to the Netherlands later in the year. That intention is thwarted by a new situation that has arisen. For example, someone falls deeply in love during that period and eventually chooses to stay in Thailand for good. Or someone becomes seriously ill during that period or gets a physical malheur. Based on this, that person decides not to fly back to the Netherlands. Two examples that can occur very easily.
The deducted wage tax and social security contributions can then be reclaimed via the M form, provided that the IB 2019 is paid in Thailand. To be demonstrated by sending the combination TIN code and RO22 form to the tax authorities.
Yours faithfully,
Charly
My compliments Charlie.
First of all for your thorough description of the process you went through at this step and then for answering all questions and comments that followed after publication on this blog.
Nice to be so polite and calm all this time. 555