VGZ drops a strong stitch
It is crazy for words that the many hundreds of insured persons with a Universal Complete Policy from Univé have not yet heard anything from VGZ about the course of events in 2018.
Please note: in this case it is not only about Thailand, but about insured people all over the world. "It's very crowded. The account manager cannot yet say anything about the premium for next year”, is the pre-programmed answer from VGZ via the chat box on Facebook.
That's nonsense. The policyholders at Univé have known for six months that this company (non-profit…) is throwing in the towel. Termination of the insurance is only possible if the company stops, as in this case. VGZ, part of the same conglomerate, therefore had ample time to prepare. Moreover, VGZ has been offering the same policy at the same price (572 euros in 2017) for two years now, according to the announcement on the website. Which, by the way, just like the page on Facebook, only serves for the greater glory of its own product.
We can only guess at the real reason for this deafening silence. There is no question of the so propagated customer friendliness, although Pauline, Janine and other ladies do their best via the chat box. Three weeks before the first premium for 2018 is written off, the policyholders are out in the cold. VGZ should not have done that with the Dutch health insurance. A hefty fine and a public pillory had been his share. And pre-existing conditions occur more often in the elderly.
And then this: insurance with a Thai, French or German company is only possible if you do not mark anything. Pre-existing conditions are excluded and companies do everything they can to hide behind this argument when making a claim.
Readers who, dripping with jealousy, shout that the insured should have stayed in the Netherlands, undoubtedly do not realize that their premium is not limited to the 100 or 120 euros that people pay in their own country. An additional 5,5 percent tax on your gross salary is added, so that your total annual premium is close to 5000 euros. Because the insured do not pay tax via the Universal Complete Policy, this amount is reflected in the price of the policy. Silliness and ignorance is everywhere in this field.
The government and the health insurance company pay different things when it comes to healthcare.
You will therefore not receive the care paid for by the government in the Netherlands in Thailand, unless part of the care paid for by the government in the Netherlands has been included in the policy. (which would make the policy more expensive than a policy in the Netherlands)
But for that you would have to go through the policy and the reimbursements by the government in the Netherlands and compare them.
Incidentally, you pay tax in the Netherlands on your state pension and some other matters, and you therefore also pay that 5,5% for care.
a) why should a Dutch health insurer make an effort to offer health insurance to Dutch citizens all over the world, ie under different cost systems? Why, as a resident of Thailand, for example, not just take out insurance in TH? Oh, those insurance terms are much worse.? Yes, that is the risk you have taken.
b) 3/4 of the Dutch healthcare costs are paid from the tax pot, see your Zvv item on your income tax assessment (5,5%) and much more directly from the tax pot. As a NL resident living in Thailand, you have expressly chosen to stay outside the NLe taxation and to enjoy the lower cost of living and healthcare costs in Thailand. Why do I, as a NL taxable person, have to pay for YOUR healthcare costs? see https://www.rtlz.nl/tv/laatste-videos/hoe-moeten-we-de-zorg-betalen. Yes, the average cost of care in NL is € 5300 per head per year. We see only 1/4 of that amount going out of our own wallet, but it has to be coughed up.
c) I don't know whether the Zvv is deducted from your AOW, living in Thailand. You already benefit anyway, because the AOW is based on the Dutch cost of living, which is considerably lower in Thailand. It is high time to adjust those benefits elsewhere to the cost of living that applies there.
Dear Harrybr,
What nonsense you are spouting again.
If I've worked in NL for 47 years and paid bills you say I'm a freeloader if I want to enjoy my old age in TL.
In all the time I have worked in NL, I have also promoted the economy in NL, I bought cars, paid for a house, living expenses, etc.
That is something different from the Poles and others who send their earned money to Poland but benefit from the other things in NL.
I think Mr Rutte just finds it annoying that he can't squeeze me any further after my retirement.
In NL you save up a Mercedes during your working life and at the end you get a second-hand Skoda of 20 years old.
The government also thinks this is quite normal, and then people are complaining about a few thousand expats with health insurance and people taking away their state pension.
Disgusting.
And I then a profiteer go and rinse your mouth please
When they were younger, these elderly people abroad also contributed to the healthcare costs of the elderly without probably having had much healthcare costs themselves. So it is not surprising if they are now also supported.
But that is no longer the case today.
Harrybr didn't quite get it. Or rather not at all. Many of the insured abroad work, or have worked, in government service. Isn't that a duty of care? A health insurer does not have to make an effort at all to offer insurance. They just make a profit with it. There is nothing wrong with that, but they must follow the rules of decency, such as communicating on time.
Incidentally, most insured persons do not know what risk they have taken on by going abroad. Usually the rules of the game are changed during the game.
That three-quarters of the healthcare costs are paid from the tax pot is completely correct. And who pays for that pot? Just the taxpayers. That is why the costs for insured abroad are considerably higher, to compensate for the amount that does not come from your tax pot. As a Dutch taxpayer, you therefore do not pay a penny for our healthcare costs. We do that ourselves. I am not complaining about the height, but about the arrogant, careless and silly treatment. The fact that you only see a quarter of the total costs coming from your own wallet indicates that you understand very little about the state of affairs. You cough it up yourself with all the other Dutch people.
After exemption, no Zw is withheld from AOW for emigrated Dutch citizens. For what, if you are no longer entitled to anything? Do you want to determine a different amount for the AOW for each country where Dutch people live? Do people also get more if they live in a more expensive country, such as the US or Switzerland?
The remark that the cost of living in Thailand is considerably lower is a travesty. Yes, in the jungle and in the countryside. In large cities we are often just as expensive as in the Netherlands. However, the sun is free here, which is why many elderly people enjoy themselves here.
“Many of the insured abroad work, or have worked, in government service.” Cheers! You too?
As if every Dutchman abroad is in government service. Come on! There are more from the business community than from the government. But in any case, it is not nice of VGZ to let everyone hang around. That does not show any form of honesty in dealing with businesses and their foreign customers. So they just let them burst.
On the other hand, you may also wonder why didn't you just keep your address in the Netherlands? Many do so until they reach state pension age and then leave. So just take the state pension accrual and then leave, because then we pay less tax? Is that fair? And then all of a sudden the problems and the squealing about these things start. Are they trying to let the knife cut only on the side of the expat?
When I read what people pay for health insurance premiums for such an expat insurance policy, isn't it better to just keep a PO box address to stay insured in the Netherlands? What's cheaper?
In addition, I can imagine that insurance in Thailand can be cheaper. The problem is that it doesn't cover if you already have existing problems. But still? Isn't paying that out of pocket cheaper than the sky-high insurance premium from the Netherlands?
Please note these are all questions and not accusations. I don't have the answers and I'm curious.
This kind of reaction oozes bitterness and jealousy. Schrijver is clearly unable to allow his fellow human beings to spend their last decades in another country after a life full of work. I have a suspicion which party the writer adheres to.
The state pension will indeed be based on the Dutch cost of living, determined by politicians who never have to live on it themselves. With only state pension it is barely life and it is not a fat pot abroad either.
The health insurance? I have a dark brown suspicion that there are countless people in Thailand, and other countries, living without insurance.
Bitterness and jealousy? Why? Not everyone is wired like that. Seems like an incorrect assumption to me. He also asks a question.
I also think that many people live without insurance. But if you are already sick before you become an expat, then it is a risk. And does that outweigh the premium? 6.000 per year premium or savings in case something happens to you? You can easily take out an insurance policy in Thailand that covers what is not yet wrong with you. And if you are already wealthy, why not just take that risk? You can't take it into the box anyway.
I would like to respond to this.
This has nothing to do with your Tax Pot.
Every Dutch person pays or contributed to the taxes.
Also your taxes when you were still in the cradle or went to school.
You won't hear anyone complain about that.
This group of people have paid taxes all their lives and choose a warm country. So what?
In the Netherlands we have an equality principle. This means that every resident and status holder has the same rights.
The basic premium is therefore calculated over all ages with a profit target for the insurers. (previous years 4 and 5 billion)
This therefore includes older Dutch people, who are often more expensive for the insurer.
The insurer can reimburse Dutch nationals residing in other countries on the basis of the rate from the Netherlands. After all, in some countries it would be much more expensive (eg USA).
Then you're talking about equality.
After all, these people are still Dutch!
Dear Harrybr,
As you said, this is very short sighted.
Much of what you write is incorrect, but you know that yourself.
Yours faithfully
Please inform yourself first before you write down things here on this blog that make no sense.
Everyone is free to take out insurance from any country. Do you also wonder why so many people in Thailand are insured through a French or German company?
The VGZ insurance discussed here is separate from the Dutch social security system and has nothing to do with the Zvv. It is a stand-alone insurance product. This insurance does not take a hold of the social or tax pot. People in the Netherlands do not “suffer” under this private insurance.
The undersigned and several Expats continue to pay the NLe tax, that is the first incorrect statement.
If you want to live in Thailand according to Dutch standards, the cost of living in Thailand is not significantly lower due to all kinds of import duties. Cars are, for example, considerably more expensive than in the Netherlands.
Adjusting to the prevailing cost of living there is a statement based on a lack of knowledge, mainly fueled by jealousy.
Well Harry, this response at least shows that you can't be accused of having empathy. But that aside, the core of Hans Bos's article is the uncertainty in which VGZ often leaves its loyal customers for many years by not communicating about the premium to be paid for 2018. And that is extremely frustrating! Incidentally, perhaps for the reassurance of you, AOW beneficiaries, who have paid their AOW premium for 40 years and decide to live in Thailand with a Thai partner, are in fact already being cut several hundred euros per month because they will then not receive an AOW benefit. receive more for a single person, even if the Thai partner has 0,00 income.
As an insured person outside the EU, you no longer have any protection and you are at the mercy of the wild west of the insurance country. Complaining about it is completely pointless.
Living in Thailand you have an extensive choice of how much and what you want to insure and choice in the amount of the insured amounts. The Netherlands is an exceptional country because everyone is compulsorily insured. If you leave this social welfare state, you know that taxes and premiums are lower elsewhere, but your personal responsibility and financial risks are greater.
In Thailand you cannot insure yourself if you already have existing complaints. Suppose you have thyroid problems or even better diabetes, etc. Everything they can associate with this is excluded from the insurance. So you can insure yourself, but not against things that are already known when you take out the insurance. That is not in the Netherlands. They have to accept you with all the complaints you already have.
Ger, that "extensive" choice does not always apply. Many insurance policies in Thailand have an age limit and additional requirements for boarding. Many insurance policies also apply a maximum age of often 70 to sometimes 75 years, after which the policy is simply cancelled. There are insurance companies that offer a policy up to a higher age, but the costs are accordingly. In addition, if you have current insurance and have ever been (seriously) ill or are still ill, you will not be confronted with exclusions with a 'new' insurance policy insofar as you are already accepted. The old insurance, no matter how expensive, offers more security. The choice is not always as free as you say.
What choice do I mean what you want to insure and how much. There are also companies that, once you are insured, will continue to insure you up to and including your 99th birthday.
As a young person I also had to deal with exclusions. But for me the premium is only a quarter of what I would actually pay in the Netherlands. Because many already mention the mandatory deductions in the Netherlands from salary or benefits and the nominal premium and deductible per year. And in the Netherlands there is no escaping the payment, but in Thailand you have the freedom not to insure and/or to build up your own fund with the saved premiums that you can use if you have medical expenses.
The fact that VGZ does not deserve the beauty prize I have not really delved into, but to dismiss critics who have chosen to stay in the Netherlands as dripping with jealousy in advance is, to say the least, highly arrogant and presumptuous.
Yes, I myself use the '8 to 4' method, I have several reasons for this and indeed a nice extra is that you can continue to be registered in the regular health insurance for a premium of € 100 to € 120
Everything has its pros and cons, nothing more than that, it's that simple.
Indeed, that's how we do it.
At least as long as my parents are still alive, after that we'll see.
“In the past” we always visited my mother-in-law twice a year and now we go back to NL twice a year to visit the family.
Is a personal choice for everyone that is made with pros and cons.
No one can determine that for another.
It is sour if the "rules of the game" are changed when you have made your choice, but then you can still change / adjust your choice. That is not always fun, but as a NL resident you can return to NL at any time.
The fact that you do not immediately qualify for all social benefits is another matter, but once you are registered in the GBA you are immediately compulsorily insured under the health insurance policy.
I think that we actually pay quite a lot for our healthcare costs etc. in NL because we pay insurance premiums, have an excess and a percentage of our income is deducted and indirectly a considerable amount is also added from the taxes. So a premium of 572 euros abroad is, in my opinion, not little, but seems realistic if no health questions are asked. I hope you can keep us informed of the developments in this health insurance policy and I am also curious whether it applies to new customers.
Hans van Mourik says.
Every insurance company will make an effort, with 1 goal, which is to earn.
That is allowed, because in the end they also take risks.
So also health insurance.
It is not a social institution.
The only thing we (I) want is clarity, so that we know where we stand.
But on time, so that we can respond to this in time.
To take out insurance or not.
I want it, but it has to be affordable, for me.
Would like less at the latest up to 650 euros pm
For that amount, they can't take out ZKV with me, don't want to take that risk.
Hans
Sorry, did I read that correctly € 650.= per MONTH ????
Elsewhere I read €572 per year so that's why !!!
That € 572 – that is really a monthly amount, Tom.
Read carefully Tom it says: "Would like less at the latest up to 650 euros pm"
To HarrieBR: what nonsense you spout. I can only unfold from your incomprehensible reaction that you have NOT empathized with the matter, so you just ramble on, perhaps out of a kind of envy. Incidentally, the cost of living is hardly lower here in Thailand, unless you only eat fruit and Thai meals (also quite tasty, by the way). The majority of the Dutch in Thailand have contributed for years, including to your child benefit, the AOW and health / healthcare costs of your parents and what not. Be ashamed and promise to get well soon to Sinterklaas tomorrow…….Think first Harrie…….
Been deregistered for 8 years, live in Asia, insured with CZ, Not yet 55 years My monthly premium went up by 50 Euro. Pay now without a dentist and a deductible of 500 Euro, 380 pm…. 🙁
You can also opt for insurance in Thailand or a comparable country in the region with worldwide coverage. I myself pay, for example, up to 55 years old, converted into Euros 110 per month. I have cover up to 900.000 euros per year. And for the difference of your 380 and the said 110 you can build up a nice piggy bank. And yes, the deductible is 0 and no dentist.
Well that sounds great, which insurance is that and can you go to all hospitals?
Yes, in every hospital. MSH International is the insurer and I arranged it through AA Insurance in Hua Hin. I myself have the Asia Care Plus Plan 1. Take a look at insureinthailand.nl
Small adjustment . my total coverage is up to 32 million baht per year, so at a rate of 38 baht for one euro, this is about 840.000 euros.
I am a regular Thailand visitor myself and regularly read this blog. Currently I am in the Netherlands, the end of the year period is too expensive for me in Thailand.
I usually keep in the background but with this topic I think I have to respond.
If you follow this blog regularly, you will have long-stayers in Thailand who, in scents and colors, write about their stay in Thailand. Usually it is about Pattaya.
Their daily beers, the (sometimes much too young) girls of fun, visits to the best Dutch and Thai restaurants, and just enjoy life. Don't worry about money, because next month I can receive another deposit, from the Netherlands, into my account.
With pleasure they describe their restaurant visits, accompanied by many photos, and you can almost follow their daily sexual adventures.
I give it to these people, of course, to each his own pleasure.
However, as a hard working person, I do feel a little jealous at times, and wish I could too. To me it feels like I have to pay taxes so that these persons can enjoy this luxurious life.
But, if a few years later, the same person in Pattaya, starts to suffer from excessive alcohol consumption and exuberant life, then suddenly we have to consider them as poor devils and unlucky people who have to be supported with tax money from the Netherlands.
The people who have lived beyond their means for years, who have laughed at and ridiculed their hardworking fellow human beings, suddenly come to the conclusion that they have drunk their insurance money or taken it away. And now all of a sudden we have to pay for their lifestyle through taxes.
All problems can be avoided if they contribute monthly to a good international or Thai insurance. If you opt for a European international hospitalization insurance, there is no age limit, and you can usually have previous conditions insured through extra insurance. Take Globality from DKV, for example. But yes, then maybe you shouldn't drink beers for a few days, don't pay for a lady of pleasure, and maybe even prepare a meal yourself. But that is too much to ask, better let the compatriot pay through tax money.
Therefore much respect for HarryBr who once clearly states what is going on.
No one is asking for a contribution from the tax authorities.
There are 2 questions.
1 Is VGZ's premium not much too high for Thailand?
2 Why is VGZ making a mess of it.
1 The premium may be high, but probably not (much) too high.
a Because most people who have moved to Thailand are older and are therefore a greater risk for the insurer.
b Because there is no brake on healthcare costs as in the Netherlands.
You don't go to a doctor, who assesses whether he will send you to a hospital or prescribe a pill himself, but you just enter the most expensive hospital on the corner.
After all, you are insured…
c There is a relatively large amount of administration and special procedures involved in insuring a relatively small number of customers.
Separate computer programs will have been developed, which must be updated and regularly adapted to changing circumstances by software specialists.
That is certainly not a cheap hobby.
2 VGZ makes a mess of it.
Well, what company isn't these days?
Businesses are run by computers these days, and what the computer doesn't know, it doesn't eat.
In practice, it is almost impossible to get a computer to change its mind once it has made a decision.
I've experienced that once in the past.
Someone at a company had entered something incorrectly into the computer.
It took months and I moved up the organization before I caught someone with the authority to cheat the computer.
No correction was not possible, deception was needed to make the computer do what it was supposed to do.
Martijn, if only you had kept it in the background this time. Dutch people who have left for Thailand for good are not sponsored with tax money. These Dutch people will have their own capital and/or work in Thailand. When they reach a certain age, they are entitled, just like any other Dutch national and non-Dutch national, who were liable to state pension due to their residence in the Netherlands, to an AOW pension paid out by the SVB (i.e. not the Tax and Customs Administration). The amount thereof depends, among other things, on the number of years for which you have contributed. Even in Thailand you cannot afford a luxurious life on your state pension. Fortunately, most people over the age of 65 also have a pension, which they also had to work hard for, and perhaps also savings or proceeds from a house sold in the Netherlands. How they spend that money in Thailand is of course their business, just like how they would have spent the money in the Netherlands. So even if they would lead a dissolute lifestyle in your eyes. (At least assume you mean licentious, because I don't know the word licentious). But it won't cost you a euro in tax money! I have been following Thailand Blog for years and yes, very occasionally restaurants are discussed. What's against that, you don't have to pay for that anyway. And sometimes there are also sometimes experiences of mostly holidaymakers to Thailand to read about their romances with Thai ladies. Doesn't cost you a euro either and you obviously don't have to read those articles if it bothers you. And the Dutch taxpayer contributes 0,00 euros to the premium for the VGZ health insurance of Dutch nationals permanently residing in Thailand. So do not accuse the Dutch who left for Thailand of providing for their maintenance at the expense of the taxpayer. And that there may be some who would consume too much alcohol daily does not only occur there. This week it was in the news in the Netherlands that the authorities involved were concerned about the excessive alcohol consumption of the elderly in the Netherlands. That will cost taxpayers a pretty penny.
"So don't accuse the Dutch who left for Thailand of providing for their maintenance at the expense of the taxpayer."
What about those who left long before their retirement and only kept a postal address to accrue state pension? Don't pay up the state pension yourself! And as soon as the state pension comes, they deregister in order not to pay taxes in the Netherlands?
John, wouldn't know if that would be as simple as you suggest here and how many people that would involve. You do? Now I don't have butter on my head and it will probably happen, but then you obviously risk being caught with annoying consequences. Just as there will be people in the Netherlands who abuse social benefits or go on holiday to Thailand for example for longer than allowed by the social service. Or here in the Netherlands trying to avoid tax by deliberately filling in the tax return form incorrectly or, until recently, bringing their money to Luxembourg and Switzerland, among others. Have responded to Martijn, who claims completely wrongly that tax money goes to Dutch people residing in Thailand for their (VGZ) health insurance and his insinuation that the Dutch in Thailand have an exuberant and dissolute lifestyle at the expense of taxpayers in the Netherlands.
Most people who move to Thailand have saved for years.
To be able to save, you have to work hard and earn a reasonable amount of money and you are allowed to pay a lot of taxes.
If you have finally emigrated, the tax authorities say that you DO have to pay tax on your state pension, but because you no longer live in the Netherlands, you will no longer receive a tax credit and you will therefore have to pay more tax on your state pension. someone who receives his state pension in the Netherlands, even if you no longer benefit from all the things that the government pays with your tax money after you emigrate.
Martijn has understood absolutely nothing of it. The VGZ insurance has nothing to do with the Dutch tax pot. The VGZ insurance could just as well be offered from Afghanistan for those who were eligible for it. It would perhaps have made it a little easier for those who cannot read or understand to see that the connection between the social or tax system in the Netherlands and the VGZ insurance offered does not exist at all.
The nonsense being said here is unimaginable.
The bullet is through the VGZ church. I just got (December 5) via Facebook the announcement that the premium for 2018 remains at 572 euros. Obviously apologies for the wait, the confusion and the consternation. VGZ no longer actively offers this policy. As a result, many within the company do not know what to do with it. That promises something for the future.
5-12-2017
Dear Hans Bosch,
Thank you very much for this important information.
I would like to know from you whether this premium is age-related, because I am 72 years old myself.
I hope you get a chance to respond to this.
Yours faithfully,
jhvd
Indeed Hans, I fear that contact with society will become even more difficult, often had to explain to university that I had a “foreign policy”. Not to mention declaring without a digiD.
Well, this problem will solve itself.
In a few years' time the AOW age will be 70+ and then there will not be many left who will move to TH. Only the younger adventurer, but he has enough time to work on good health insurance.
And if I follow the newspaper a bit, now it is the supplementary insurance that yields too little for the insurance companies and then I quickly follow the basic insurance. Consequence, everyone has to see for themselves what they do, whether or not insurance, etc. You get a bit of Thai situations. Those who have money can go to the hospital, those who have nothing are helped to a painless end because morphine is not that expensive.