New tax treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand
On 2 September last, the Council of Ministers agreed to a comprehensive revision of the double taxation treaty concluded with Thailand. This Convention supersedes the current Convention dating from 1975.
At the initiative of Thailand, negotiations to reach a new tax treaty have already started in 2020. In particular, the Netherlands agreed to make source state taxation also possible for private pensions.
This source state levy for tax-facilitated pensions in the Netherlands has been a long-cherished wish within tax treaty policy and has recently also been reflected in treaties recently concluded by the Netherlands.
In addition to rules to prevent double taxation and to prevent non-taxation or reduced taxation by means of tax evasion or avoidance, the Treaty also offers the possibility to exchange tax information.
The Convention has now been submitted for advice to the Advisory Division of the Council of State. Since the new Treaty is in line with the 2020 Fiscal Treaty Policy Memorandum, I expect an early approval advice from this Council, which will soon lead to the entry into force of the new Treaty.
After the entry into force of the new Treaty, Thailand will have little or no room for taxation on income from the Netherlands. This means that you can no longer use the Thai tax facilities, such as the many reductions and deductions and the tax-free allowance. Although the Netherlands may levy almost unlimited taxes on your income from the Netherlands, as a non-resident taxpayer you cannot claim Dutch tax facilities, such as tax credits and deductions for personal obligations. You are completely clueless in that regard. The Netherlands gets the benefits and Thailand the burdens.
Living in Thailand, you contribute to the dyke reinforcement in the Netherlands to ensure that people in the Netherlands keep their feet dry and Thailand, whatever its water problems, cannot count on your support in this. That is called a "fair distribution" (but not really).
Lammert, this was coming.
I already saw it in the brand new treaty with Colombia. The Netherlands will soon levy taxes there from the first euro, even if you succeed in investing the pension capital outside the Netherlands.
And I don't think it's unfair. Dutch pensions and benefits are (partly) financed by the taxpayer and after emigration would another country bear the tax?
On the other hand, it is sour that tax facilities that you can get after emigration to other EU or treaty countries do not apply if you live outside that group of countries. For example in Thailand.
Ask your. The average processing time at the Council of State is 40 days. Then it will be the end of October before the Council of Ministers can give the final green light. When Thailand is ready, a date can be set, etc. Do you think the new treaty will take effect on 1-1-23 or 1-1-24?
I'm counting on 1-1-2023, Erik. With this new Treaty, the wishes of both Thailand and the Netherlands have been fulfilled.
Thailand insisted on modernizing the provisions on tax evasion and avoidance, but is not making any gains as Thailand has little or no scope for taxation and the Netherlands was able to achieve its long-cherished wish of source state taxation on private pensions. Both land happily (but one more than the other!).
What will happen with all the exemptions already granted? I suspect we will get a message about that. Otherwise, people can get into trouble with a fairly high additional assessment, right?
You can hope that the people who have an exemption will indeed be notified about this. In any case, the Tax and Customs Administration has already gained a lot of experience in getting people into trouble.
Hi Lambert,
This new tax treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand only concerns income tax?? I assume that I will remain exempt from national insurance contributions and health insurance contributions. There is something to be said for this from a Dutch perspective. On the other hand, they could now also give us pensionados the tax discount hahahah. All in all, it's not much of a problem for me. I have a very small pension so I only give a little and save a lot of hassle. Especially if my mental health deteriorates later in life
Goodbye
Fred
Pjotter, with the entry into force of the new Treaty, the exemptions granted will lapse. This has already been indicated in the exemption decision. It is then important to inform your pension provider of this. Otherwise you will indeed have to deal with additional tax collection.
Would it no longer be obvious for the tax authorities to inform the pension provider?
Not everyone will keep track of tax treaty changes on a daily basis.
Pjotter, he will have to withdraw the Service and possibly as of 1-1. That's a lot of work for an already overworked and understaffed Service, so will they make it before that date?
This is a known problem as legislation-ed changes are introduced towards the end of the year. 'The computer can't handle it…' they say. Well, he can handle it, but it is man who has a limited frame of mind…
But if you still enjoy an exemption after that date, you can put those money aside for later.
Erik, the Service does not have to withdraw anything and does not have to free up any manpower or computer capacity for this.
Each exemption decision contains the following disclaimer:
“If you no longer meet the conditions for an exemption on the basis of amended legislation and/or amendments to the treaty or on the basis of other changes in facts and circumstances, this statement will lose its legal validity.”
When the source state tax is introduced for private pensions, the exemption statement automatically loses its legal validity, without further intervention by the Tax and Customs Administration.
Lammert, yes, I understand. But who's in charge then? The employee does not apply the exemption, the pension payer does that. I support your advice that the pensioner should take action, but I think this is more the task of the pension body. Because they just as well have that text in-house and have tax experts available.
What I'm afraid of is that in mid-2024, when the final IB 2023 assessments roll out of the printer, people will have a heart attack from the IB to be paid because they have not received the change and the pension body has not responded.
I think as much publicity as possible about the change is therefore necessary, as I have already told you, because the government does not excel at that… So let's hope that the people of Thailand will rattle the fanfare…
Dear,
You have already paid taxes on your pension deductions for 45 years, also twice on your holiday pay.
They always praise you twice, the good citizens.
that is incorrect. Your pension premium is first deducted from your salary and that remainder is taxed! So no tax has ever been withheld from your pension premium.
In addition, employers often paid half or more and in some industries the entire pension premium, no tax was paid on this in the past either.
Dear Lambert
THAT would mean, when the time comes, that it would be best for me to register with my daughter again in order to have the benefit of a tax credit and the benefit of a much cheaper health insurance policy.
But the disadvantage of that construction is unfortunately that you have to be in the Netherlands for at least 4 months a year… And if I am well informed (?) The health insurance even requires a period of 6 months…
For the health insurance, a term of 12 months applies during which you may stay abroad for a consecutive period, not 6 months. This is even told in government information, see the link:
Moderator: Link is too long, you need to use a url shortner.
My private pension is NOT funded by the government or the taxpayer at all!
This pension is paid out on my hard-earned own money! What I've worked and saved for all my life!!
Yes, but that deposit has first been deducted from your taxable income and you have therefore not paid any tax on that part…
Well, then it depends on whether you have saved that money gross, for example with single premium policies, OR net, whether you are affected by this new treaty. The only problem may be the savings in box 3 I suspect.
As far as the last paragraph is concerned, there is something to be said, after all, no tax is / was not levied on the pension accrual in the Netherlands on the deposited funds and then with regard to the pension payment it is reasonable that the levy either accrues to the Netherlands and then not elsewhere, because after all, the income and contributions are earned in the Netherlands and not in Thailand. On the other hand, the retiree contributes generously to the Thai treasury through payment of Thai VAT on all purchases and often transfers significant amounts to Thailand, benefiting Thailand and its economy and individuals.
It is a pity that the pensioner no longer falls under Thai income taxation, a personal disadvantage for many, but on the other hand rightly so that the Netherlands now benefits from this.
Viewed objectively than my story because I also prefer to pay less tax, but yes unfortunately.
Indeed, this has been expected for some time. Does withholding tax in this case mean a levy according to the income tax table (as if you were living in the Netherlands but without a tax credit) or is a certain fixed percentage deducted from the entire pension?
Although the Netherlands may levy almost unlimited taxes on your income from the Netherlands, as a non-resident taxpayer you cannot claim Dutch tax facilities, such as tax credits and deductions for personal obligations.
As a pensioner in Thailand, I pay more than 1500 euros per month in alimony to my ex-wife. So I would have to pay tax on this in the Netherlands and then transfer 1500 euros to my ex, on which she would have to pay tax again.
This is indeed being outlawed. The combination of tax liability and alimony in the Netherlands would mean an extra tax assessment of 1350 euros per month for me.
I read various reactions that the levying by the Netherlands is justified. I agree if the tax credits and deduction for personal obligations are also applied.
If you have to pay the tax on pension contributions in the Netherlands according to the new income tax levies, then the Netherlands must do well. Now we do not receive a supplement from the SVB because we live in Thailand (if a woman does not yet have a state pension.
So we live in Thailand pay taxes to the Netherlands and we can forget about the surcharges. I still have a Dutch passport.
This is pure discrimination against the tax authorities and the government!!!!
Sjaak, which SVB allowance do you mean?
The partner allowance has been discontinued for several years now for all relationships in which the oldest partner was born in or after 1950, and the single person benefit lapses upon marriage and/or cohabitation. Both do not depend on your country of residence.
The single or single living allowance. Don't know the exact name. Now everyone who has a Thai girlfriend, for example, must report to the SVB that he lives together. This while the Thai lady has no state pension rights because she has never lived or worked. Not even in the event of the death of the NL partner, as is the case in many countries. In many cases it will also be the case that the Dutch man, for a very large part, sometimes even 100%, contributes financially to her/family or household.
You must also report this if you are going to live together as a single AOW pensioner in the Netherlands – why should this not apply to a stay in Thailand – for which you choose yourself? Speaking of other countries: there are also those where the simple fact that you live in Thailand already leads to a reduction in the amount paid out by the government. The United Kingdom is an example of this.
True, but then the person you live with also has AOW rights.
I'm not convinced. But why would a Thai lady who has never lived and worked in the Netherlands suddenly become entitled to Dutch benefits when she starts living with a Dutch person? While it takes people living in NL 40 years to build up that right? As a Dutch taxpayer I would find that unfair.
You turn it around. It concerns the allowance for 'the Dutchman'. not the Thai lady. The fact that the Thai lady no longer receives anything has already been abolished in 2014 (partner allowance)
I am responding to your 'then the person you live with also has state pension rights'.
I am responding to your “Even if you are going to live together as a single state pensioner in the Netherlands” and then of course I also mean someone who has state pension rights.
Pjotter, you mean the single person benefit (70%) and the married/cohabitant benefit (50%).
But that has been the case for a long time, that difference, and everyone could have known that when they emigrated. I know that many people find that unfair, but then I ask the question, should the Netherlands pay for it because you choose a partner who does not accrue a retirement pension?
If this is the reason for Sjaak's comment, Sjaak now also has an answer.
Well, there's something in Erik, but I've just contributed the 17-plus percent all my working life. I know, that's for those who retired at the time, but still.
Of course I knew that, but then I ask the question, should the Netherlands pay for me to live alone? I mean there is always an argument to be found.
Is the treaty already available for download somewhere? I can't find it via google and on rijksoverheid.nl. I'm curious about the terms on savings.
I think this is all so far:
Treaty between the Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Kingdom
Thailand to avoid double taxation
to taxes on income and the prevention of evasion
and tax evasion, with Protocol (Minister of Foreign Affairs)
The current tax treaty with Thailand dates from 1975 and is on
revision. Negotiations for a new tax treaty
come started in 2020 at the initiative of Thailand because of the desire to
treaty to modernize. The Netherlands agreed from the wish to
source state taxation for pensions and enter into the treaty
to align with OECD anti-abuse standards
tax evasion.
– 2 – MR September 2, 2022
The new tax treaty provides rules for double taxation
without creating opportunities for non-taxation or
reduced taxation through evasion or
tax avoidance. The treaty also offers the possibility to
exchange tax information.
In the negotiations, the OECD model treaty is broadly in line
taken as a starting point. The structure, content and wording of the
treaty generally correspond to those recently adopted by the Netherlands
concluded tax treaties, which the Netherlands has taken into account
with the specific wishes of Thailand.
The treaty will apply to the European part of the Netherlands. In the
treaty explicitly includes the possibility to extend it to
Caribbean Netherlands, Aruba, Curaçao and/or Sint Maarten.
You can read the current treaty at laws.nl and enter Thailand in the search field. This is where the new treaty will come in later.
Does this only apply to income tax, or is the Netherlands also entitled to other levies – AOW premiums, for example?
Ruud, this only applies to income tax. When living in Thailand you fall outside the circle of insured persons for the national insurance schemes. If you are not yet entitled to state pension, you will, for example, no longer accrue rights to the state pension and you will be faced with a state pension shortfall later on.
That's right, but I wondered whether under the new law you would also be liable to pay contributions for the AOW for your income from the Netherlands.
For example, if you took early retirement at the age of 60, and would then have to pay state pension contributions on the pension benefit from a pension insurer.
That doesn't seem like such a complicated addition to the law, and a civil servant must have thought of that.
That no longer applies to me, by the way.
I only suffer from the tax on the AOW benefit and the pension.
Anyway, 9,42% I survive.
I have seen that percentage of 9,42% several times, but cannot find it anywhere on the internet. There I find the percentage for pensioners up to 35000 euros to be 19,17%.
Can someone explain that to me because that saves 10%?
Erik, do you still have that crystal ball on your mantelpiece?
Then please throw it away because a while ago you wrote that it wouldn't go that fast with a new tax treaty ….
Jos, is already in the glass container…..
I am currently using the “old” tax treaty. I have been living in Thailand for 15 years and have a pension from the Netherlands from a private employer. So I don't have a pension from the government or, for example, from the ABP. I am also not talking about the AOW in my question because it is always taxed in NL.
I do NOT pay payroll tax in NL on my pension in NL because it is taxed in Thailand under the current treaty. It has been that way for 15 years and it is very beneficial to me.
Do I now understand correctly that I will have to pay wage tax in NL from now on under the new treaty?
After the entry into force of the new Treaty (presumably 1-1-2023), this will indeed be the case, Frank R.
Dear Lammert, will there be a kind of reduction scheme for Dutch people who have lived in Thailand for a long time, as I know has happened in some other countries?
In view of the Memorandum on Fiscal Treaty Policy 2020 and the recent treaties concluded by the Netherlands, this is not to be expected, Jan Bekkering.
Pensions are partly built up by the taxpayer ? Bold statement. Less tax may have been paid on pension investments, but everyone in the Netherlands has the option of making use of the same exemption when investing in his or her pension. To say afterwards that other tax payers have contributed to your pension is going too far for me. Someone else may have used it to take out a mortgage and has been deducting it from their taxes for years. And so you can probably still quite; come up with many things that have been performed in favor of 1 person. I therefore think it is going too far to say that the Dutch taxpayer has contributed to the accrual of someone else's pension.
Dear Lammert, will there be some kind of transitional arrangement?
See my response to your question above, Jan.
I've never quite understood that.
My salary is paid after deduction of premiums and taxes.
I assume that this will also be the case with the pension benefit. So after deduction of taxes and premiums.
As long as you continue to live in NL, yes. (except for your AOW premium at AOW age). If you are going to emigrate, there are all kinds of tax treaties and it will often be different. Like Thailand too.
We have lived in Thailand for several years before, and even then I felt resistance to making myself known to the Thai tax authorities. Nevertheless, I did it in Korat (2013) where people looked at me strangely, and advised me not to file a return, but to leave the taxation to the Netherlands. No sooner said than done. Nevertheless, they gave me a tax number. What was my resistance? It has always been explained to me that as a worker I contributed to the AOW benefits of the beneficiaries at that time. When I started to receive state pension, I assumed that the people who were working at that time had started paying my state pension, and therefore still do. (apportionment principle) I also receive a pension and I have collected the contributions myself in the collective pension pot. Why should I burden Thailand with this? All the more so because I amply meet the financial conditions on the basis of which I can stay in Thailand for a year. If that is no longer the case after a year, I will be expelled. I pay ThB 1900 with the residence application, and as far as I am concerned Thailand should be allowed to double that amount as a kind of residence tax because of the use of the Thai infrastructure. But after that it has to stop. Anyway: that tax thing will therefore end in 2023. Good. With which I can justify that Thailand has a double entrance of farang in some places.
I understand from your story that you actually think it is good citizenship that when you receive a benefit from NL, which is paid for by the current generation of workers (the apportionment principle), that you think it is normal to also pay your taxes and premiums in/to NL. to fulfil.
Which is also a cover principle that you have worked in NL. You have paid taxes and premiums and that someone else has now taken over your work and has now paid the taxes and premiums you previously paid.
I have no objection to you paying tax in TH when you live in TH. After all, you live there and use the infrastructure and utilities there.
Someone else has taken over your work and home in NL. So also co-financing the infrastructure in NL.
The argument that taxes should be paid in Thailand because infrastructure and utilities are used is a fabricated argument. It has always been doable to take advantage of tax constructions. If the situation were the other way around, you could now have observed a mood of joy. Many discussions and questions to tax experts were precisely about how to act in order to have to pay less tax if Thailand could levy. There was never a question of what to do because Thailand's infrastructure was being used. As far as utilities are concerned: in Thailand you periodically pay your water and electricity bill, including consumption, use and VAT.
Is this only about income tax, or do premiums also have to be paid?
KeesP, The Treaty only pertains to taxes on income or capital. When you live in Thailand, you fall outside the circle of compulsory insured persons for the national insurance schemes. As far as the latter is concerned, the new Treaty does not change anything.
If you are deregistered from the Netherlands and registered in Thailand, it only concerns income tax. Among other things, one is not entitled to health insurance, so one cannot tax anything for that.
What about previously granted exemptions for those who immigrated years ago.
Lenthai, as the exemption decisions already granted themselves indicate, these will lapse as a result of new legislation and regulations.
I don't think it's smart of the Thai negotiators that they return the levy to NL
Thailand receives less tax revenue and the farang has less to spend in Thailand.
As a former civil servant, residing in Thailand, with a benefit from the ABP and also provided with an AOW benefit, income tax has been withheld from me in the Netherlands on both amounts for many years. As far as pensions are concerned, I thought this was a legal inequality in dealing with private pensions, so that double standards were also applied in Thailand and many Dutch people benefited financially from it. With this treaty in the making, this has been rectified and I cannot mourning, even though I'm double in it. Paying taxes in Thailand and not in the Netherlands would also have yielded more net income for me. In fact, I think that these benefits should remain taxed in the Netherlands. They have also been built up there and we remain Dutch and there is something in return. My entire family, children and grandchildren have not appreciated my choice to stay in Thailand. They are also struggling financially in the current situation and my financial contribution is only a small one and every bit helps. The downside of all this is that the necessary Dutch people staying in Thailand for a long time will suffer financially and it is hoped that they will not fall below the threshold and will have to find other lucrative ways to pay for a stay, whether or not forced to return to the Netherlands. There is always something in life and they are never convenient and often unexpected. For me, the early state pension date was a misplaced joke, which resulted in almost eight thousand euros less income for me. I hope that everyone who concerns this can find or keep their place and we will have to make do with it. Tax filing hassles in Thailand can be omitted when the new treaty enters into force and that is one less worry for me.
Dear Jacques,
Know that the Thai tax law states that everyone must file a return, even if it results in a zero result. A lot of civil servants busy and with the aim of getting as many people as possible into the system. Now TH is just the country where people are crazy about inspections and fines immediately in the event of an error, and where do you think they will start with? It won't be today or tomorrow, but rather make sure there is proof of reporting than suddenly they ask you for evidence that you don't have. Such a declaration is easy to do on the internet and it costs nothing, so I don't see any obstacles in the way not to do it. Safety First.
Dear Lambert,
Should I then base the tax percentage on what is currently being deducted from AOW?
Now about 9,79%. Or is the normal percentage of the 1st tax bracket (approx. 37%) used without discount levies?
Quite a substantial difference.
RNo, the income tax due on the first € 35.472 is 9,42% (standards 2022). The percentage of 37,07% you mentioned includes the national insurance contributions. You do not owe this premium if you live in Thailand.
Dear Lambert,
thanks for your comment. I already assumed a lower percentage comparable to what I now pay on AOW. But since the rules of the game are changing and I no longer know all accrual percentages (AOW, Healthcare) I asked this question to clarify things for readers.
ps to Lammert,
you now mention an amount of 35.472 Euro, but since the Tax and Customs Administration will of course add up the gross AOW plus pension and then levy what percentage will be used above the amount you stated?
Rno, if your AOW and your pension benefit amount to more than € 35.472, you fall into the second bracket and the income tax is 37,07% on the excess. This second tranche has a length of € 33.926. Above that, a percentage of income tax of 49,5% applies and then again on the excess.
Dear Lambert,
because you yourself indicate that the treaty will probably enter into force on January 1, 2023, I have looked at information about tax brackets for the coming year.
Find info on the following site: https://www.jan.nl/nieuws/belastingplan-inkomstenbelasting/
If correct, then tax rate above 35.472 Euro would be 19,15% for 2023 and not 37,07%. I'm on state pension so it would make a difference.
Rno, you have not properly read and misunderstood the table belonging to the link you posted. There is talk of a percentage of 19,17% for 2022 UP TO AN INCOME OF € 35.472 (born after 1945). However, this percentage consists of 9,42% income tax and 9,75% national insurance contributions. However, you do not owe the latter when living in Thailand.
But with an income from € 35.473 to € 69.399, the income tax rate for 2022 is 37,07% and from € 69.399 even 49,50%.
Contrary to what your link suggests, the bracket rate does not consist of 2 but of 3 brackets and where you have to make a clear split into income tax and national insurance contributions with regard to the first bracket!
What the rates will look like in 2023, I can't say a sensible word about that yet. We have to wait until next Tuesday for that. But I am sure that they will deviate in a positive sense from the prognosis in your link.
9,42%? On the internet I see 19,17 % about the first 35472. Or am I looking wrong?
You can't go wrong on the internet, Peter. Even on the website of the Tax Authorities you will find a withholding percentage for the first bracket for state pension rights of 19,17%. However, this concerns 9,42% income tax and 9,75% national insurance contributions. However, you do not owe the latter when living in Thailand.
Lammert, today is the second Tuesday in September….. is there a chance that the percentages will be increased next week??
That's looking like coffee grounds, Jos. Strangely enough, nothing has yet leaked from the Cabinet plans. There are, however, some expectations here and there.
Personally, I expect a reduction in the first income tax bracket in particular, in order to mitigate the consequences of the sky-high inflation. But if it goes just as "extremely" fast as from 2021 to 2022, then you won't get much out of it. Then the rates for the first and second bracket were reduced by 0,03% (count from your profit)!
Thanks for your response Lammert, it's clear now
The percentages match for me and it is almost the same for an average pension and the state pension.
I live permanently in Thailand. And so it makes sense that I pay taxes there to finance the facilities (roads, electricity, etc.).
The Netherlands apparently thinks it is more logical that from now on I pay tax there for the financing of facilities there. While I don't use it.
And I am still not allowed to use, for example, health insurance or tax credits.
The Netherlands has become a real robber's nest.
And Thailand has unfortunately been sleeping.
You pay Thai VAT on your purchases, the largest source of income for the Thai government, which is spent on roads, among other things. The person who receives your money when you buy
, buys something from it and also pays VAT, income tax and / or profit tax. And so a lot of tax is paid with your money brought into Thailand. In the Netherlands you have not paid tax on your pension money. Suppose you have 1000 pension income, then pay 150 euros in tax in the Netherlands in the new situation and then you spend the remainder 850 euros in full in Thailand. Thailand as an economy earns 850 Euros without them having to do anything for it and all these funds are earned in the Netherlands and the Netherlands then receives only 150 Euros as an economy in the form of tax. Wouldn't say that the Netherlands is a robber's nest because all the money disappears in Thai pockets because you spend your money there if necessary.
And it is good that the inequality between people with a government pension and those with a company pension is now coming to an end. People with a pension from work for the government already had no choice.
The same rule for everyone from now on, great!
Dear Dirk,
with a small difference, namely that pension contributions for working for the government were in fact paid by the government. Something with a vest pocket?
I was about to apply for an exemption from payroll tax for the PFZW, but does that still make sense since, according to the new tax treaty, the Netherlands will also levy on private pensions?
Assuming that the new Treaty enters into force on January 1, 1, and I have no doubt about that, that indeed no longer makes sense, Niek.
If the prognosis of the coming into force of this new treaty comes true, then you better save yourself the trouble in my view.
Even though there will be a small chance that it will not be introduced on 1-01-2023, I think it would be useful to let the application go through.
Who knows, the government will stumble before then and it will be a year later.
Earlier I wrote this: Currently I use the “old” tax treaty. I have been living in Thailand for 15 years and have a pension from the Netherlands from a private employer. So I don't have a pension from the government or, for example, from the ABP. I am also not talking about the AOW in my question because it is always taxed in NL.
I do NOT pay payroll tax in NL on my pension in NL because it is taxed in Thailand under the current treaty. It has been that way for 15 years and it is very beneficial to me.
Do I now understand correctly that I will have to pay wage tax in NL from now on under the new treaty?
UNFORTUNATELY no one responds to this WHILE there are many more people living in Thailand who currently do not pay tax in both NL and Thailand due to the current tax treaty.
PLEASE NOTE: from now on you will have to pay tax in NL!!
That saves hundreds to thousands of euros per month that you are going backwards.
DO YOU KNOW? AND is that true? TRANSITIONAL REGULATION?
Apparently you have a very high pension with these kinds of amounts. I'd check it out again if I were you. I don't think a transitional arrangement will apply, but I could be wrong. I hope so for those concerned.
Dear Frank,
I live the same period in Thailand and it surprises me that so few respond.
In an earlier response, I asked Lammert De Haan what percentage is being discussed. AOW tax of approximately 9,79% is already withheld. The total percentage of the 1st tax bracket is 37,07%, but that consists of several components (e.g. care) for which we unfortunately do not qualify. New treaty can be a source of income for the Dutch State for which they have to do very little. Also do not understand why Thailand has agreed to this law change.
There isn't much to respond to except complain.
Moreover, taxes are complicated subjects that most people don't know much about, and you can bet that the tax experts will know.
That's right Frank R. So you will pay income or wage tax just like with a pension from the Netherlands, IN the Netherlands. The premiums for the national insurance schemes (ANW, WLZ. AOW if you have not yet reached the AOW age) as well as the ZVW are no longer withheld.
And that saves many hundreds of euros.
But Jacques is right. I also always thought it was unfair that you (usually) do not have this advantage with a government pension.
But yes, the Netherlands has long been known for “changing the rules while playing the game” and in my opinion there are more unfair things in the legislation.
Well off topic, but I also have trouble with it myself, that as a sole earner in Thailand, I STILL have to report to the SVB that I live together. This while my Thai girlfriend has never lived or worked in NL and I take care of her 100% financially. So saves a lot of AOW money. In many countries, the woman you married will even receive a widow's pension. Anyway, they don't know our apportionment system and have paid their state pension themselves.
Oh well, we'll see where it takes us. Fortunately, I still have enough left over for my Thai annual extensions.
Dear Pjotter,
but premiums for people in government service were added to and deducted from salary by the same government service. For me that was the vest pocket pocket rule. But I could be wrong because I didn't work for the government.
Pjotter, there was recently an item about a widow's pension for the partner of a Dutchman who lives in Thailand who has retired.
The conclusion was that you should arrange this in good time and BEFORE the pension commences. One person will then receive less retirement pension, the other will receive a survivor's pension after the death of the partner.
But that does not apply to the AOW. After all, the AOW is not a pension but a national old-age provision (although it is called 'my pension' and the SVB also refers to it as a pension).
The NL system does have ANW, the General Surviving Dependents Act, but this mainly only applies to residents.
Correct Eric. I also considered then. But cost me a lot of money every month in my own pension. Thought something of € 600 net less per month to arrange a survivor's pension for her of about € 700 (+/- 25,000฿) per month. Which seemed reasonable to me for a Thai lady.
Of course, they are choices, but now with the new tax treaty, for example, I would have run into some problems, probably before the annual extension. Then I would have had to use the combi scheme by hws bv by putting savings in the Thai bank in combination with the visa support letter. Anyway. It is what it is. Thank you for your comment on this
There are more people, like me, who live with a girlfriend who does not receive any income.
And yet, according to current legislation, your state pension is cut because the legislator assumes that the girlfriend (partner) also has an income, which is not the case in many situations in Thailand.
You will not be reduced on your state pension, but people are fair and assume that if you live alone, your housing costs will be higher, because you cannot share these with a partner. That is why if you live alone (unmarried then) you will receive a higher AOW benefit, so there is no question of a reduction for cohabitants, but the other way around a supplement for the single person.
It is your own choice that people like to live with someone who has no income. In all my relationships, my partners had/have their own income. And the Dutch government assumes equality and both partners can earn income and accrue pension. Then instead of Thailand, have a wife in Hong Kong, Singapore or Switzerland, to name just a few countries, where your partner on average earns more than a Dutchman and has a high pension when he reaches retirement age; in that case I won't hear you complain. Or take a girlfriend / wife, she can be younger and Thai, with a salary comparable to the West and then I won't hear you complain either.
I know many retired foreigners who chose a Thai partner with job and salary and various other facilities such as health insurance, in which they also participate. Should have thought a little more at the time, or accept the consequences of your decisions.
I don't know if you are married to your girlfriend? If that is not the case, then if your girlfriend still has a small home somewhere, the Two-home rule may come in handy. If that is not the case, then you will receive a state pension as a married/cohabiting couple.
But is that unreasonable?
In the Netherlands you will also be reduced if you start living together, right?
The girlfriend you live with is not entitled to a benefit from the Netherlands, but that does not mean that the rule for cohabitation does not apply to you, after all, you live together…
You could expect that band of robbers from The Hague who always want to do their utmost in any area.
I see a lot of people who have been staying in Thailand for a long time with a small pension because of this 'joke' in financial difficulties come here in Thailand. In the case of emigration, deregistration also makes little sense.
If you only have a 'small pension', the financial consequences will not be great either…
@ Cornelis with a small pension, this turnaround may just mean that you can no longer meet the Thai requirements of 40K or 65K…
I do not believe that. people with only state pension (must be a single person's benefit) already pay almost nothing. So can expect virtually nothing to change. It is not the case that if someone receives EUR 1250 in benefit, he/she suddenly receives tens of EUR less.
“The Hague robber gang”?
You forget that the revision of the 1975 tax agreement has been requested by Thailand. Not by the Netherlands!
Frank R.: If there are so many people who (wrongly) do not pay tax in both countries, they must have built up a solid buffer. They can still go ahead!
Why wrong? The treaty allowed that. Even if you want to file a tax return in Thailand, you are often sent there. You will certainly receive an ABP pension yourself, which you MUST pay to those grabbers in The Hague? Because that has been hurting for years from some reactions.
It may sound unbelievable, but there are also people who simply declare their income and pay the tax due on it.
2020 was the first full year I lived in Thailand.
Neatly filed a declaration, it took some effort to get the official to do so.
That year I took a little over 700.0000 baht to Thailand.
Should pay 11.000 baht tax on that.
2021 I brought 480.000 to Thailand, attack was nil ……..
Ha ha. Beats. I have also paid income tax here every year. A lot of work and it wasn't difficult. 12 copies of my bank statements with my monthly pension payments. The office then filled out that PND91 form. For me a total of 500k free and the rest I just paid and could take another year.
Dear Leen, you rightly wrote: “that was allowed by the treaty” and that has now been rectified.
Wrongly yes, because we have to pay taxes in Thailand. I pay around 100000 so 2500 euros. Think about that in the Netherlands. That's the treaty!
And by the way, I also have an exemption for my government pension. So that is now docking.
After 1 year, for example? Well, that's quite a buffer. The government pension and salary is even paid by many private individuals!
This is only about 1 thing. We have an existing tax treaty. Whether some of you agree with that treaty or not is immaterial.
The current treaty means that if you have a private pension from the Netherlands, which can also have started at the age of 58 (but there are even younger ones), you did NOT have to pay wage tax in the Netherlands.
Levy was previously with Thailand. Thailand states that if you had no income from Thailand (not even from renting out your flat in Pattaya, for example) you do not have to pay tax in Thailand.
So not in NL and not in Thailand.
Of course many of you think that's unfair but it's just the law.
Now that is changing and the wage tax levy will be in the hands of the Netherlands, even if you officially live in Thailand.
And therein lies the difficulty.
People who have a pension from the Netherlands now suddenly have to pay wage tax on it in NL. So with a private pension (not the AOW because it is always taxed in NL) of 500 euros, for example, you no longer have 500 euros left, but 350 euros.
And that is a (too) big difference for many.
In the Netherlands, many people have problems paying energy bills and groceries. Many people can barely get by on their average income.
This also applies to the Dutch living in Thailand. You will feel what you get less.
Unfortunately, a transitional arrangement does not apply, but there should be!
So when judging this subject, look purely at the current tax treaty and at the new one and don't criticize the use of the current one because that is laid down by law.
The problem is therefore simple: you have less left over from your pension.
People with a private pension of 12 months x 500 euros really do not suddenly have to pay 1800 euros in tax. Suppose you have an AOW of 15000 euros plus a pension of 6000 euros. You will pay less than 10% tax. Do the math yourself. Those people already paid that amount to the Dutch tax authorities because Thailand does not want to handle those kinds of amounts, so there was no benefit from exemptions or other exemptions. Storms are created in glass water.
Dear Frank, the withholding percentages have already been announced by Lammert and for long-term residents in Thailand this is 9.42%. On an amount of 500 euros, this is a reduction of 47 euros and I end up with a net amount of 453 euros. I can't place that 350 euros net anywhere. Please don't make it worse than it is.
FrankR, how did you get the 30% levy?
If someone in Thailand has a gross pension of 500 euros/month in addition to the AOW, the rate will be 2022% in 9,42. Only with an income of, rounded off, 35.000 euros per year, the rate over the top will be higher. Exact figures are elsewhere in the discussions here.
For most people in TH, the new treaty will be better than expected, especially if the state pension goes up by 10% gross and bracket 1 becomes cheaper to improve purchasing power, as has been leaked. We will know more on Tuesday.
if everyone who is tax resident in Thailand (more than 182 days a year) had just paid his (little) tax, the income for Thailand would have been much higher and they probably wouldn't have taken the initiative to revise the treaty!! bottom of the pan, lid on your head!!
Dear Jan, there are those who had properly reported to the tax authorities, but who did not have to pay due to the applicable rules (including the old Th-Nl treaty) and were sent away. This is certainly the case with the small pensions that many Dutch people have received. I think Thailand has been more concerned about getting clarity and, as far as the Netherlands is concerned, to let Dutch tax law apply. They both got what was asked for.
Wrong conclusion I think. There is no link between the Thai tax authorities and Immigration, Immigration does not even know where you live and every year you can reload the same data into their systems because apparently they do not keep a file per person during their stay in Thailand, because why are you allowed to enter the same data again. According to Thailand you are obliged to file a report just like in the Netherlands and if they already knew who lives where and for how long they would have taken action themselves. People do not know, both from the Dutch and other nationalities, and therefore nothing to say but probably an official in Thailand who does not understand that they are missing out on income that was normally paid by Dutch taxpayers in Thailand. Or the Netherlands is nice and instead of just canceling the treaty with therefore difficult tax returns in 2 countries, the Netherlands then decides to take over the levy in its own favor, rightly so.
Dear Ger, it seems indeed that there are no systems linked in Thailand. Both by the (local) immigration service, the population register (in the form of the local Tessebaan and local Amphur), the (local) Thai tax authorities and the (local) Thai SVB. The lack or lack of an organization such as the Dutch IND for foreigners in Thailand is also something that I find incomprehensible and reprehensible. After all, your private (civil) rights are guaranteed there and the police have the task of supervising (which in my opinion should be limited, different from the way things are now) and preventing (fighting) the committing of offenses and crimes committed by foreigners. Now they are engaged in a lot of administrative posturing and keep the police officers off the streets, while there is so much going on that cannot bear the light of day. For foreigners, the immigration police is leading and they know their residential address. After all, you have to announce this there and confirm it every 90 days. That people can stay somewhere else than they specify would be possible, because there is no check on the spot, other than those who register (residence application) as married to a Thai man or woman. To obtain a Thai driver's license I had to get an extract from the (local) immigration police and my pink Thai ID card, which shows my residence address, was not accepted. You can also question the composition of the aliens file managed by the immigration police, given the annual repetition of submitted documents. There is much of the same and that makes you despondent when submitting. All those photos of mine have already become a nice collection. In any case, there are a lot of A4 sheets in the personal file, of which I hope that the data has been recorded and scanned. With this way of working, it is inevitable that something will only be done by the immigration police if priority is given to one of the tasks. My pink Thai ID card (which says on the back in Thai that it would only be valid in your own province) has a number that should match a tax number, but it doesn't. This number was also unusable for the vaccinations for covid-19, where another number was created for registration. Yes people are doing well in Thailand. My lawyer in Thailand told me that the foreign national should not worry until the immigration police start asking questions about financial matters in Thailand, such as having or not filing a tax return or not meeting income requirements. With the submitted income statements, people are aware of that part of the foreigners' income and as long as that is in order, there should be little to fear. I leave the latter to her credit, because we do have to comply with the legal rules.
What nonsense, it saves Thailand a lot of administrative effort, namely speaking to the Dutch in English, most of us in TH speak at least Thai and further consultation with the head office in BKK is then excluded, plus the majority of people do not get through all kinds of deductions until a tax payment, so all the work for nothing. In addition, the Thai state gets the bulk of its income through VAT.
In addition, many countries have preceded us in introducing withholding tax in joint tax treaties.
Dear Lambert,
In the main article you write:
“That means that you can no longer use the Thai tax facilities, such as the many reductions and deductions and the tax-free allowance.”
Does that also mean that you no longer have to file a tax return in Thailand?
If you still have to file a tax return in Thailand, have the facilities as you mentioned above expired?
What will such a declaration look like?
In an earlier article of 17-03-2021 you wrote about the special provision Article 23, paragraph 6, of the (old) Treaty.
Will this article be deleted from the new treaty?
Does the Dutchman living in Thailand, with regard to his income from the Netherlands and insofar as it has been brought into Thailand, expire in the year of enjoying it?
No matter how you turn or turn, this will again cause a lot of hassle at Tax Offices in Thailand because of the ignorance of the old treaty and therefore now the new treaty.
Hi Wim,
That was a while ago and I am still grateful to you for your instructions to arrive at a good Excel file for calculating the PIT and the reduction determination.
After the entry into force of the new treaty, Thailand will have virtually no more taxing rights with regard to income brought in from the Netherlands. This means that you no longer have to file a return for the PIT and therefore cannot make use of the many reductions, exemptions and tax-free allowances. After all, there is nothing to lift.
Now that the Netherlands is the only taxing country, also with regard to the AOW benefit, the reduction provision ex Art. 23(6) of the Treaty, also out of the question.
It will take some getting used to for the Thai tax official. He used to find you at his desk with a piece of cake once a year. He will miss that cake. With this, the Dutch are following in the footsteps of the Belgians (just a little more practice with a football and we are equal to each other).
G'day Lammert,
I understand your answer, thank you.
But I have the following question:
Ok, all the deductions you mentioned are about income (I think).
But suppose you received THB 20.000 gross interest from a Thai bank on which a 15% withholding tax has been levied. (THB 15% over THB 20.000 is the maximum deductible withholding tax amount)
And/or you have taken out life insurance in TH with a Thai insurer for you or your partner AND/OR health insurance in TH with a Thai insurer. Those were deductions, weren't they? (there are also maximum deductible amounts)
Does that mean that these deductions will also lapse?
If that is not the case, then it would be better to file a declaration with the TH Tax Authorities, right?
If these deductions also expire, you have stayed in the monkey business because then you will also lose these deductions and double faked.
Hi Wim,
With the expiry of the reductions, exemptions and deductions, I mean that you can no longer capitalize on them if there is no or too little income to be taxed in Thailand.
In that case, the Netherlands will in principle be the only taxing country. Within international tax law, the view prevails that the source country should then grant tax facilities (possibly pro rata). However, this is not the case when living in Thailand, in contrast to living in the EU, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
What you quote here is different. In this case there is an income to be taxed by Thailand, namely the interest on your bank balance. You can reclaim the withholding tax of 15% withheld on this on a declaration and then as Withholding Tax (item 13 declaration form PND91).
This is all too often overlooked, so it's good that you point this out.
I also pay attention to this in an article to be published in Thailandblog about common mistakes when filing a return for the Dutch income tax and the Thai Personal Income Tax.
Well, I think if you no longer have to file a tax return in Thailand, Thai deductions will of course no longer do anything. Deductions are there to keep your income or your taxable income as low as possible. If you no longer have taxable income in Thailand, deductions are of course pointless. Mss if it turns negative? Then you should even get money.
Thailand could of course also have used the data from immigration to see who stayed longer than 182 days and send those people a declaration form….
And THAT they should have done years ago Jos. Immigration knows almost everything about you. If they see the computers of Imm. and taxes, I suspect that would have brought some money to Batjes.
Thanks to everyone who provided me with new information on this subject, especially thanks to Lammert de Haan for the concise formulations.
I now assume that from 1-1-2023 I will pay income tax on my pensions in addition to the tax I already pay on my state pension.
For me personally, it is an amount per year that I have no problem with, based on the mentioned percentage of 9,42
I have been living in Thailand for over 7 years now, of which 5 years as a deregistered person in the Netherlands with an exemption from income tax since that date (I also have an exemption for premiums for non-profit organizations, but that is not relevant here).
Given the financial problems in my native country, I am happy to pay something for that again.
However, I hope that something will also happen with the notorious evaders, otherwise it will be very sour that I do pay with my income of € 19.000 per year and Rutte's friends with the hundredfold income do not because of all the benefits they are offered from our great tax office.
I do assume that I will not have to cough up that exemption from the past 5 years.
Is that right, can someone with knowledge about this say something about it?
Lammers perhaps?
A side note: when I still lived in the Netherlands, given my income as a single tenant, I was entitled to rent and care allowance amounting to +/- €350 per month.
By living in Thailand, the Dutch government saves that amount, shouldn't they take that into account? Or is the caterpillar never enough?
Finally, a piece of advice to all grumblers. Go vote and further realize that it could have been much worse. For example, that you are no longer entitled to an adjustment of your AOW as of 1 January next year and after that…
Unfortunately, the government does not lose sleep over poor people's comments except for a short time before the elections.
Hi Eli,
You don't have to worry about the years up to 2022. Legislation never has retroactive effect (unless it concerns favorable policies, which is not the case in the new treaty)).
Your saying that: "For example, that you are no longer entitled to an adjustment of your AOW as of January 1 next year and after that...", is absolutely not true. Read this from May last: https://www.anbo.nl/nieuws/goed-nieuws-aow-gaat-toch-omhoog
You must add the sentence before “that it could have been much worse” and then “EXAMPLE……….” ALSO include in your speech Tambon. Eli also does not mean NOW with the current AOW. I understand what Eli means. For example, for UK people living abroad, the state pension is NOT indexed after departure. THOUGHT also Australia. I think you have to have lived there for 2 consecutive years before you get your state pension. Then some countries to which you have emigrated, for example, have the so-called "country of residence principle". These people only receive part of their state pension. So that's what Eli means by "it could have been worse"
There are undoubtedly people who live here in Thailand who barely meet the income requirements thanks to the old tax treaty, who are now through no fault of their own in the situation where they are forced to go back.
Very pleasant prospect, small income, no home and heating costs that can no longer be paid.
That will be a room if you're lucky, furniture from the thrift store and groceries from the food bank, don't forget to vote for the VVD and the CDA next year, you know the parties of the multinationals, shareholders and wealthy people.
@ Lammert de Haan:
Perhaps I have an extremely interesting announcement for you. Perhaps I am the exception to the rule that all exemption decisions contain the disclaimer you quoted:
I have 4 pension administrators. For all 4 I received an exemption decision (simultaneously in 2012) WITHOUT that disclaimer! Not a word is said about the expiration by operation of law.
On the other hand, it literally says: “The approval takes effect on 01 February 2012 and remains valid as long as you live in Thailand”. I can send it to your e-mail address for your information.
What now? Will I keep my exemption after 1-1-2023 or will it still expire? Or should the court be involved? Is the position of the Tax and Customs Administration tenable? Do I have a right that I can claim?
I'm curious about your answer. Thank you very much in advance.
Paco
This is a nice case, Paco.
You have a very old exemption decision (without disclaimer).
You could try it by invoking the principle of trust. But I give you little chance as the inspector can rely on a new fact, namely the new treaty. And the inspector certainly will.
Lammert, I wonder if you still have a distinction between domestic and foreign duty in terms of filling in the call declaration in NL. I pay taxes in NL and reclaim the overpayment via the foreign tax route. In short, the new tax treaty changes something in my annual tax routine,
gerard
That distinction remains, Gerard.
You must continue to complete form C (for non-resident taxpayers). If you don't do that and you fill in the P-form for resident private taxpayers, you will also immediately have to pay the national insurance contributions. Every year I see between 10 to 15 of these types of incorrect declarations.
The advantage is that you then also have a “right” to tax credits.
After the entry into force of the new treaty, you will therefore continue to submit the form C, but when asked whether your pension benefit is taxed in the Netherlands, enter “Yes” (instead of “No” now).
Incidentally, the question is whether it still makes sense to file a return (unless you have received an invitation to do so from the Tax and Customs Administration).
It does not seem unreasonable to me if, after the new treaty arrangement with Thailand has come into effect, a special tax credit will be possible for expats. This discount could be based on the fact that the expat makes little or no use of public facilities in the Netherlands. I am thinking of a number of facilities that are (largely) paid for from tax revenues, such as public areas, traffic facilities, flood defences, maintenance of public parks and the like.
This tax credit could then apply to anyone who has the status of Non-Resident and who does pay income tax in the Netherlands. Perhaps certain political parties and/or advocacy groups can get something done on this point.
This can be easily arranged via the tax return form by replacing this question: “Is this income fully taxed in the Netherlands?”. Replace this question with: “Is this income fully taxed in the Netherlands and are you not resident in the Netherlands?” if the answer is 'yes', a 'non-resident tax credit' will automatically be granted. Then we will all be happy to be Dutch again.
I wouldn't wake sleeping dogs. As of 1 January next (or perhaps sooner if M. Rutte is pleased to give more explanation due to Prinsjesdag next Tuesday) due to all the increased costs of living, for example, the minimum wage will increase. The AOW benefit is (still) linked to this increase. Had it been the same M. Rutte, there would have been no question of that link. Also, people entitled to state pension in Thailand, for example, still receive the same gross amount. There are countries that refrain from such a construction. In addition, the first tax bracket will be reduced. It is therefore possible that less than 9,42% tax will be paid. And finally: pension payments are or have been increased. What does M. Rutte or associates want to have the tax officials think about the whole thing. I'll just close with another saying - namely about lid and bottom jug.
Lammert puts us on the wrong track by stating that the advice lies with the Council of State. An email had made it clear to him that this was not the case. Given the procedure to be followed, such as parliaments in both countries, etc., it seems unlikely that the amended treaty can enter into force on 1 January 2023.
The answer from the Council of State was:
Thanks for your email. In it you have questions regarding the new tax treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand.
The new tax treaty has not yet been submitted to the Advisory Division for advice. It is therefore true that you cannot yet find the request for advice on our website. Once the application has been received, it may take one to several months for the Advisory Department to adopt the recommendation.
We cannot provide you with a copy of the treaty that will be advised. That is a document from the Minister of Foreign Affairs and it is not for the Council of State to share it.
I hope to have informed you enough for now.
Yours faithfully,
Margo van Westbroek LLB
public information officer
My apologies. Of course I meant Jan Bos.
I'm getting old HANS Bos.
Hans Bos,
The source I took my article from has edited the text on its website as follows:
“The Minister of Foreign Affairs will refer the treaty to the Advisory Division of the Council of State for tacit approval for advice.”
Since the new Treaty is in accordance with the Memorandum on Fiscal Treaty Policy 2020 and with recent treaties concluded by the Netherlands (on which the Council of State has advised in all cases), I expect an early approval from this Council, after which the new Treaty will enter into force soon. will follow.
In addition, the average lead time to provide advice, according to its 2021 annual report, is 40 days. In view of the foregoing, I certainly do not expect this deadline to be exceeded.
And what is the next step then?
Since it concerns "tacit approval" (which is customary for this type of treaty), the Treaty enters into force simultaneously after presentation to Parliament.
Contrary to what you state, the date of entry into force of 1 January next is very feasible. I dare not make the readers of Thailandblog happy with what later turns out to be a dead sparrow!
You could have figured out yourself that the Council of State does not share documents with you, on which this Council must advise the government.
If you read all the way at the top, you will also see Erik's question to Lammert "How long will it take before the advice is there"...."an average of 40 days?" So do you think the public relations officer is misleading us?
Well, it will be a year later. As long as you know it's coming. Now you have an extra year to save for the people in the polder: dyke reinforcement, immigrants, nitrogen, gas price, earthquakes and aging…..:)
I can imagine that the Thai government will take some measures to rake in extra tax money.
After this agreement enters into force, the Thai government will receive less income tax and the Dutch here will have less to spend, so that the VAT revenue for the government will also decrease.
Perhaps, for example, the costs of an annual extension of a visa will be increased considerably.???
That is easy money without too much bureaucratic effort.
Maybe we can then get a tax credit on income tax (and therefore not on national insurance contributions)
I will then raise this with various political parties in the Netherlands if this is the result of this agreement.
Peter, with an increase in the costs for an extension, Thailand takes all people who live on an annual stamp. Don't give them the idea... That increase will come anyway.
The abolition of tax credits outside the EU and treaty countries (but there are more conditions than just the country of residence…) was the contribution of the PVV to the Rutte-I tolerance cabinet (Rutte-Verhage). That was not implemented because that cabinet did not reach the finish line. Then the VVD took that to Rutte-II and it went into 1-1-2015. I'm afraid you won't find a majority for a new regulation, but it's free to try…. Will you please keep us informed?
Well, I think if you no longer have to file a tax return in Thailand, Thai deductions will of course no longer do anything. Deductions are there to keep your income or your taxable income as low as possible. If you no longer have taxable income in Thailand, deductions are of course pointless. Mss if it turns negative? Then you should even get money.