Have I arranged my (financial) affairs properly?
It is a question that every expat should ask himself, whether or not with a Thai partner. Death creates great uncertainty and confusion among family, friends and acquaintances, who are often saddled with unanswered questions.
Nothing but good about the dead. Although many expats should have arranged their affairs better. Too often the Thai partner is left with (almost) empty hands. Is it a matter of distrust? You would almost think so. The woman with whom the men in question sometimes lived for years, may clean up the shards of the death. Who pays for the cremation and everything that goes with it, the rent and the costs of future living?
For expats with a Dutch partner, the settlement usually runs smoothly. Both know the pin code of each other's accounts, while this is covered by a Dutch will. I know stories of Dutch people who, on the threshold of death, allow themselves to be driven to an ATM in a wheelchair, but do not want their partner to know the PIN code. After death, stories go around of a considerable amount in the account, which no one can touch. The same applies to pension and AOW, paid monthly into a Dutch bank account. The remaining Thai then sits with the fried pears.
Let's be honest: most Dutch men who settle in Thailand are in the fall of their lives, while many Thais still have a life ahead of them. Perhaps one has to do with the other, if expats assume they are immortal. A will is for later, while I often hear that the inheritance belongs to the children in the Netherlands. A clear case of guilt, but certainly not fair to the Thai partner, who has often taken care of the Dutchman to the best of his ability. And then get a stench for thanks. And to make matters worse, the Dutch family is portrayed as a 'gold digger'.
The reverse also occurs, by the way. The man then shouts: mine is different' and entrusts land, house, car and so on to the one he adores. This in the conviction that she will not be left unattended when he gives Maarten the pipe. Very noble and understandable, because he is often more than thirty years older than her. However, the problem arises, and I have experienced this from close by, when the woman unexpectedly dies before the farang. Then suddenly her family shows up on the doorstep and demands everything. His car then turns out to be borrowed from the bank and accounts have been looted. Her children, whom he has cared for and treated as his own for years, turn out to be like sharks that pounce on his hearth and home.
My advice is to arrange watertight financial matters in life and welfare in consultation with a (reliable) lawyer. When it comes to large amounts for land, house and car, many expats blindly trust their partner, but where they have to spend a few thousand baht for legal advice, most of them do not care.
Try to arrange as much as possible before the Grim Reaper knocks at the door. In the interest of yourself and also that of those left behind. A small example: open a joint account without a bank card and keep the bank book yourself. That is so fair to the person with whom you have shared joys and sorrows for years. If after your death there is nothing left for your Thai partner, I wonder what you are doing here in Thailand…
Of course you have to make sure your partner is taken care of, but I have yet to meet the first farang who has full insight into his Thai partner's finances.
Well, then I'll be the first and I never asked. And fortunately she is wise enough not to tell anyone how much she receives or saves each month. Because of my bad experience in my previous marriage, I am in control and manage our finances.
Her pocket money and our household money goes into an account that we used to share, but is now entirely in her name.
Unfortunately I haven't arranged enough yet, but I will do this. One of the reasons I got married was that (I get my money from Germany) she can expect a widow's pension when I die. But I will at least send her all the pin codes that will be handed to her in case of my death.
Statistically, I still have about thirty years ahead of me…but you never know.
What I'm reading now “…For expats with a Dutch partner, the settlement usually runs smoothly. Both know the pin code of each other's accounts, while this is covered by a Dutch will..” that will be all right; after all, an expat is seconded and only here temporarily.
For emigrants who are sometimes TIG years from NL and maintain their Dutch will, problems loom after his / her death that you better anticipate. The Dutch notary can, I do not say: will, refuse the certificate of inheritance because of uncertainty whether the will drawn up in the Netherlands is the LAST will. You can make another will in Thailand, and another, and another, and they are not centrally registered anywhere in Thailand. There is no central registration here. Even registration on the amphur is not required.
A friend and I have been busy for almost two years now for a Thai widow (of a NL-er) to arrange the execution of his NL will, with lawyers and civil-law notaries, with a NL bank and a bank elsewhere in the EU, because the 'house' notary refuses the certificate of inheritance because, as already mentioned, the testator has left the Netherlands for TIG years and there is no certainty whatsoever that the NL will is the LAST will. And not a single civil-law notary is waiting for a claim from an entitled party who suddenly shows up at the door with a will drawn up later.
For that reason, and I live permanently in Thailand, I have a Thai will and it is registered on the amphur. Should I go elsewhere, to Aland, I would make a new will there.
seems well arranged but as said: apparently you can draw up a new will anywhere in Thailand.
So your notary is still not sure if your will you are referring to is the latest!!
I am legally married to a Thai woman. I am 20 years older and am making arrangements so that she is not left uncared for. I have our marriage certificate of the week translated into Dutch and then register it with the municipality so that she is entitled to part of my pension. There is no inheritance after buying a house in Thailand. Have it recorded that if she dies before that I have the right to use the land and the house for life.
Dear Walter,
Find out whether your Thai wife is entitled to part of the pension!
I. low size, she has. I even received an (unsolicited) e-mail about this from my pension fund. The previous wife also receives her share, if applicable.
In my opinion, this also applies when you bring your Thai partner to the Netherlands, my friend who will hopefully soon be able to collect her MVV was surprised that I already spoke to her about this, but I think that if you choose each other, everything should also be arranged properly .
That is indeed sensible. The basis is in any case to have insight into each other's financial situation (properties). In a serious and stable relationship, it goes without saying that you have access to each other's data, including papers and bank accounts. I must confess that my love and I have never settled it further than that. Yes, we had each other's passwords, PIN, etc. on all fronts, always useful if, for example, the emergency was over. And when we decided to get married 2 years after her immigration, we of course had a prenuptial agreement drawn up. Not out of distrust, even though things can get ugly when a relationship ends in a messy divorce, but just to be covered against third parties in particular.
Now I live in a rented house, and my wife's only possessions were a piece of land and a Thai bank account (which was empty except for a few baht, used only for vacation or a single transaction). That made it simple. No statement or anything. With property such as a house overseas, that aspect would of course have become important to arrange things fairly and properly for the survivor.
What we never talked about was donor registration. When my wife passed away exactly two days ago last year, I didn't know what her vision was. We should have done that, I have now had to play it safe and tell the hospital I couldn't give her organs up for donation because I didn't know her wish. I hope I guessed right, but I'll never know if she would rather have saved another human being with her own life. They are not easy or pleasant things, but death can strike us all unexpectedly.
The older partner should therefore not assume that the younger partner will survive too much. Or assume that the country of residence will no longer change, the income situation, property or the relationship itself will remain as it is. Difficult but important to be aware of. It therefore goes without saying that you should occasionally consider whether everything you have or have not arranged is still up to date or whether adjustments are needed.
And don't forget that there are various rules based on, among other things, the year of birth. The older generations still have laws regarding ANW (widow's pension) from a time when it was assumed that the (older) man was the sole earner or the (younger) woman only brought in a tip. For younger generations, the regulations are more austere. It is assumed that both partners can do their thing. Death before or after the state pension age also plays a role, of course. I received messages from the UWV and my late wife's pension fund to the effect that I would not receive a penny. I hadn't counted on either.
Would be a stupid mistake if you think "after me the deluge will be fine for my partner when I'm out".
Correction: UWV had to be SVB of course.
Wills in several countries of different dates, whether or not 'findable' by the authorities in those countries is, I think, asking for problems. I've been thinking about it for a while and to keep it as simple and clear as possible I'm thinking of the following:
-Getting married outside of community of property, so 'on a prenuptial agreement'. (Can also be used in Thailand)
-Evt.Register Thai marriage in the Netherlands because of possible. pension.
-Draw up a new will in the Netherlands, where you can record the bequest for your Thai wife or girlfriend or whatever (eg all possessions in Thailand plus that and that and that).
Benefits:
-It seems to me then more plausible for the notary in the Netherlands that, now that the legal entity is your wife, no later deviating wills were made in Thailand. (If necessary, send an annual confirmation of the fact that the will in question is still your last will to the civil-law notary).
-You do not have to draw up any Thai documents regarding the inheritance and there are - not even reliable - Thai lawyers involved.
.
Maybe I'm overlooking something or missing the point, it's just an idea.
NB: Please bear in mind that your in-house civil-law notary in the Netherlands is not necessarily a specialist in this field. Just like with your GP, don't hesitate to ask for a referral.
Frans Amsterdam, you write this: “…It seems to me then more plausible for the civil-law notary in the Netherlands that, since the legal registrar is your wife, no later deviating wills were made in Thailand. (If necessary, send an annual confirmation of the fact that the will in question is still your last will to the notary)…”
Have you consulted with your civil-law notary and what is his/her reaction: I want to have it made plausible, or I want it proven. He/She is the person who gets a claim for an incorrect statement of inheritance.
I'm curious what your notary has answered. In the case I described the answer was 'evidence' and that is still being worked on almost two years after death. You will be without income; but in this case it is fine.
'Proving' that something isn't there is always a perilous undertaking.
I thought I read in your response that a civil-law notary CAN refuse in case of uncertainty, and that in the case you mentioned there is NO certainty whatsoever.
From this I have concluded that a degree of plausibility might tip the balance the other way.
That doesn't make it any less annoying if it isn't.
Strange that there is no regulation that instructs an opposing party in such a situation to provide proof, within a reasonable period, of the existence of a later will.
After all, in case of a later claim against the civil-law notary, one will still have to provide that evidence.
Well Gerard Plomp, you can forget that, the Thai has not arranged anything, in my case I have, via SVB,
I have additional insurance, if I drop out early, money will come in monthly.
In addition, I have had life insurance for many years, ditto a nice amount for my Thai wife, (in my heart I have arranged this more for our son who is now 5 years old).
Married in Thailand, brought my wife and son born in Thailand to my home in Germany where we now live together.
Have a new will (on the surviving spouse) drawn up at the notary in the Netherlands, so that my previous children have a claim on any inheritance but cannot claim anything (not before the death of my current wife).
Since my wife is younger than my previous children, it is likely that my wife will outlive them.
I opted for a Dutch will because it is safer, I could also have had a German will drawn up, but there are often problems with that when it comes to settlement, a Thai will could easily be challenged here by my previous children.
I will put my house (owned) in the name of our joint child in due course, stating that we can both live here for life.
I raised my previous children and funded an education, my feeling tells me that I have to take care of my current wife.
I have also arranged for my current wife and child to receive benefits from the AWW, for which I voluntarily pay a premium. At the SVB she is also known as my wife.
A will in the Netherlands and living in Thailand with a Thai spouse is asking for trouble. There is no central register of wills in Thailand and many Dutch notaries refuse to issue a Certificate of Inheritance because the Dutch notary has no certainty that a later will has been made in Thailand that nobody knows about or that there is a "descendant" in Thailand . so heir(s) hopping around.
I experienced that. It takes a lot of effort and with the help of a lawyer in the Netherlands, a civil-law notary in the Netherlands was prepared, after investigation and a reasonable amount of money for the lawyer and civil-law notary, to issue a deed of inheritance.
It often concerns Dutch bank accounts, because many possessions will no longer be held in the Netherlands and the Thai possessions are usually in the name of the wife.
If you made a will in the Netherlands, make one in Thailand and send that Thai will to the Dutch notary who made your original will. He puts that in the Central Register of wills and then you know for sure that the Dutch assets, usually bank accounts, will go to the heirs, usually the Thai wife, without much trouble.
It appears all too often that when arrangements have been made, Dutch legislation on inheritance law is overlooked. It's a wall you run into.
Just one addition. If there are spouses and/or children from previous marriages in the Netherlands or Thailand. they are also heirs. You can then put everything in the name of the current Thai wife, but the Dutch and/or Thai side (sometimes) also wants something. And then Dutch and Thai legislation on inheritance law get mixed up.
Or the Dutch and/or Thai side must legally waive all inheritances before you die.
I have had to take care of myself all my life and also worked very hard all my life that I am now experiencing the physical problems of.
Have also been good to others all my life always helped when I could.
Live in Thailand for several years now and enjoy life to the fullest as it can be
It is also doing well financially
So I have nothing to divide when I die, also no will, so no tram malant with children or possibly family to make everything up.
Hans van Mourik says
Before going to Thailand, I took a lot of information, both in books and people.
Been in a relationship for 15 years now, with whom I live together.
Gives her 4000 euros every year we are together, I told her to save that, if I'm not around anymore.
Finally, my income is also in euros
She also receives enough household money from me every month, even though I will be in the Netherlands for a few months.
She already has her own home, half of which has been paid for by her, and the other half by me.
The maintenance costs of the house are for me
We also have an and or bill, (there is also not allowed to arrive) that is for possible if I die here for the funeral costs.
How often do I not hear it, not only in Thailand, but also elsewhere, Marriage, divorce, alimony, division of property, notary costs, etc.
Have been married 1x and don't want to anymore, also no legal cohabitation contract.
Assume as long as we are together and it goes well, she deserves a good life after that too.
We have been together for 15 years, meanwhile she must have saved 60000 euros, but I don't know that is my calculation.
What she does with it is not important to me, what matters to me is that I feel good.
Or what Gerard Plomp says on September 25, 2016 at 10:33 am
but I have yet to meet the first farang who has full insight into his Thai partner's finances
I don't know either, and don't ask for it, I gave it to her.
Hans van Mourik
It seems a bit complex, but it really isn't.
You can have a Thai will drawn up under Thai law while living permanently in Thailand, see below.
If you previously made a will with a Dutch civil-law notary, you must inform them of the later drawing up of that will. This notary is therefore aware of the later Thai will and the Dutch will has therefore expired. Needless to say, you should note in your Thai will that your previous Dutch will has expired.
Your Thai partner is thus, if you wish and express this in your will, as heir in charge of the settlement of your estate and is authorized to actually take possession of your possessions. If you don't want it, write it down.
There is a treaty, The Hague Inheritance Treaty 1989, which stipulates that you can make a choice of law, for example for Thai law. This is possible, for example, if you have your habitual residence in Thailand at the time of making the choice of law.
In this way, if desired, it is easy to arrange for your Thai wife or partner and, if desired, also for possible other heirs.
Nico B
As far as I know, the Hague Succession Convention has only been ratified by the Netherlands and has therefore not entered into force.
These are the rules as laid down in the Netherlands (published by the central government):
Rules European Inheritance Regulation
In the event of death on or after 17 August 2015, the “European Inheritance Regulation” determines which inheritance law applies to a cross-border inheritance. Do you live abroad as a Dutch national? In that case, the law of the country of your last habitual residence applies. Is there a closer connection with a country other than that of the last habitual residence at the time of death? Then the law of this other country applies.
You can also choose the law of the country of which you are a national at the time of the choice of law or the time of death.
So if you live in Thailand, Thai inheritance law applies unless, if you have Dutch nationality, you opt for Dutch inheritance law. Then record this with a Dutch notary.
The Hague Inheritance Convention only applies until death until August 17, 2015, so if one reads this, it no longer applies to the reader.
The treaty has also been ratified by Argentina. The fact that it has not been ratified by other countries does not affect the possibilities of this treaty that you have as a Dutch citizen if you have your habitual residence in Thailand at the time of making the choice of law.
Thus, if desired, you can opt for Thai law, where the options are many times greater than in the Netherlands.
In the good care of your partner in Thailand, Hans Bos has more options than in the Netherlands to do that, whereby you can also leave other heirs as you wish.
Nico B
For the Thai, it is often disgusting with what she gets. Especially after she reaches state pension age herself. The AOW gap then takes its revenge. After all: the surviving dependant's benefits will fall sharply when the state pension age is reached. In addition, they themselves have accrued a very limited pension. In my case it is anyway. This can be easily calculated using software. So no fat pot after her state pension age. And that AOW gap can no longer be closed. That used to be possible.
Usually the ladies have already taken care of a few things themselves.
It is not for nothing that they insist on purchasing real estate in Thailand.
Have also seen the reverse. Capital from liquidated family businesses, built up over two generations, to Thailand. Big house there, lots of land.
Comment Dutch relatives: Worked for our whole life, but all that money earned in decades by the joint family to Thailand disappeared by heir……………..never comes back to us. Once in Thailand, always in Thailand. In such cases, any rightholders may be shortchanged here. The Thai in-laws eventually run off with it.
For those who have not accrued sufficient state pension and have a low income when they reach the state pension age, there is an option to obtain additional assistance from the municipality. So if there is a shortage of accrued AOW years, you can get a supplement in the Netherlands.
The person receiving AOW must then continue to live in the Netherlands for this supplement. However, this does depend on any other income from work (working after reaching state pension age) or supplementary pension.
Just a question to someone who may know, we have lived together for 20 years, not married, and also have a joint account, now it is said at a bank that if my girlfriend dies, half will go to her son. I have no assets in the Netherlands only a will that was made 21 years ago and where my girlfriend is a 70% heiress, I want to change this now and do as NicoB has reported by having a new will made and recorded here in Thailand send it to my Dutch civil-law notary to have that Dutch expire.
Andre, you live together, you are not married, she has no Thai will. So you don't inherit but her child(ren). Then she should make a will.
When you make a will, line 1 always says “I revoke all previously made last wills”. Then you don't have to send anything to your NL notary, do you? OK, you can send it but he doesn't have to do anything. Can't do anything without you there.
If you want to officially revoke the NL will, you have to go to NL and that revocation will then be entered in the Central Wills Register. Then every NL notary will find out if they start looking for a NL will after your death.
“Now it is said at a bank that if my girlfriend dies, half will go to her son”
The reason is that this is separate from any Thai inheritance because it is a joint account, so half remains for Andre in the event of the death of Andre's girlfriend.
The girlfriend's 50 percent applies for any inheritance.
And in Thailand you can disinherit your own children or deny something in an estate, so you could include in a Thai will of the girlfriend that her share of the bank balance (50%) will go to Andre after the death of the girlfriend. He then has the full bank balance at her departure.
Too many people are not or insufficiently aware of this problem. Or do not want to deal with it during their lifetime? Après nous le déluge? Mai pen rai, in a farrang version 🙂
Some people try to be providential. But experience shows that complexity and time make it difficult to come up with a tailor-made arrangement that will stand when a house comes to you.
For example, a few years ago I thought I had worked out a suitable arrangement through a notary. Unfortunately, in the meantime there are new facts that have already overtaken this regulation. Facts that I have no impact on. Decrease in income due to incapacity for work, resurgence of a legal dispute with my ex-wife, of course about money, actions of children from a previous marriage, death of my mother, dementia of my father, change of law, etc ...
In economic reality, of course, you do what you want. There is nothing wrong with that in itself and that is why it is often suggested here. Everything in her name in Thailand and everything in your name in the EU has been widely used. Unfortunately, such an arrangement is highly dependent on human relationships, not least with your Thai partner. Love is always forever… in the movies, but in real life, human relationships don't always stand the test of time.
It is important to take into account the legal/regulatory framework both in your country of origin and in Thailand. In any case, in property law, family law, inheritance law, business law, tax law, pension regulations, ... and depending on your personal situation in a variety of other legal disciplines.
Even if you want a good legal settlement, it is rarely easy. Calling in specialized help from a notary and/or specialized Thai lawyers does not always bring solace either, because the "premises" of your personal situation are sometimes so complex that they are poorly translated legally or are sometimes partly forgotten. Something that the heirs will encounter later. Something the deceased never wanted. Reigning over your grave is an extremely difficult discipline, given few rulers 🙂
As a result of this piece on TB, I am going to think again carefully about how the previously made arrangement by notarial deed can be updated. A nice ambition, right?