Get rid of the Dutch tax authorities…
Deregistering from the Municipal Basic Administration of Heerlen is me eventually succeeded, albeit not without a struggle. You can report a move within the Netherlands via the internet, but all kinds of boxes are tilted at foreign addresses. So there was nothing for it but to move to Thailand in writing by December 31.
A good friend posted the envelope at the beginning of December and then a deep silence set in. I contacted the public affairs department in Heerlen via email, received a confirmation of my letter, but nothing else. Of course I initially thought of Christmas and donuts, but by January 10th, some misery started to get the upper hand. After another few emails, Heerlen finally admitted that the report had been received. The deregistration was digitally passed on the same day with retroactive effect, with the promise that a copy would reach me by regular mail. That hasn't happened yet.
A bigger problem is the Limburg tax office, which is also based in Heerlen, abroad. This department certainly does not make life easier and therefore no more fun. Despite a lot of forms and documents sent to obtain an exemption from withholding payroll tax, this service ruled in October of last year that proof is necessary that the applicant is regarded as a fiscal resident in Thailand. But for an exemption I also have to be deregistered first. Gotspe is that the letter arrived in Hua Hin three weeks after the date and I had to respond within 4 weeks. I then neatly returned the accidentally enclosed letter to an applicant living in Spain.
Now I also hear from acquaintances in Thailand that Heerlen uses this bizarre directive, while other tax offices (for example Amsterdam, Breda and Enschede) - as it should be, assume the treaty for the prevention of double taxation that Thailand and the Netherlands signed in 1975/6 Closed.
http://www.jongbloed-fiscaaljuristen.nl/files/belastingverdragen_09/thailand.pdf
The said treaty clearly states that the country of residence (in this case Thailand) is entitled to levy tax. With the emphasis on 'entitled', not 'compulsory'. In fact, it is not the Dutch tax authorities' business whether the applicant is regarded as a tax resident in Thailand. Now that in itself would not be such a problem if the Thai tax authorities knew what the applicant wants on the order of the Dutch tax authorities. Only some nervous laughter is yours, I assure you.
A former Dutch tax inspector, living in Northern Thailand, came to my rescue. He called the required form 'nonsensical'. I must demonstrate that my center of livelihood is in Thailand in order to obtain the requested exemption.
That is simple. I copy rental contract in Hua Hin, internet subscription in my name, car and motorcycle papers and so on. In total it concerns about 20 sheets of paper that I send to Heerlen. Beforehand I call the lady from Limburg who turned down my first application. I can't find out if she's familiar with the treaty. According to her, 'the assessor' should speak the redeeming word in the office. In any case, I ask for a decision that can be appealed, so that I can possibly fight further against the fiscal ruin. For the time being I come to the conclusion that (at least in Heerlen) too many civil servants are engaged in counterproductive actions and can therefore be spared.
Incidentally, my tax auxiliaries conclude that it is not at all necessary to be deregistered from the Netherlands in order to obtain an exemption from withholding. Heerlen is also riding a crooked skate on that point.
I have not yet received a message from Heerlen, but I assume that this service has been instructed by the authorities to keep as much tax money as possible in its own country. Don't come on board with the announcement that I'm benefiting from the Netherlands, because after my deregistration I will receive 4 percent less state pension. I can no longer use all kinds of facilities and it is therefore logical that I no longer have to pay for them. My expat insurance costs me 299 euros per month and applies to the whole world. When I go to the Netherlands, I have to take out travel insurance.
(to be continued)
More and more people are emigrating and they certainly have the task of keeping the money in the Netherlands. They are becoming increasingly difficult. That is why you should have consulted an advisor beforehand and not afterwards. Saves you a lot of annoyance. a few cents, but such a person earns it back twice over. It is still better to engage a tax consultant in the Netherlands.
They also look at where your social life takes place. A difference is made between a rented and a owner-occupied house.etc.
Hopefully we will hear again that everything ended well. SUCCESS.
Isn't it too sad for words that you have to call in a tax consultant for more than 700 euros (checked) to get you right on the basis of an existing treaty? And where my social life takes place? What do you think if I spend less than three weeks in the Netherlands per year.
Enabling it in advance is easy if you know what the future will bring. I have had health insurance in the Netherlands for the past six years (diabetes) and therefore had to remain registered.
Dear Hans
just contact marty German in Sprang Capelle. he has applied for the exemption for me several times without any problem in Heerlen. Cost me 275 euros, but that is well worth it
hehe, finally someone who has had the same approach.
Dear Hans, See my response of 5jan.om726 I have nothing more to add to this.
700 Euro seems excessive to me for such a simple matter. Maybe the rate of an RAtje (registered accountant).
But what does eea have to do with diabetes? It's not entirely clear to me.
The wisest thing would have been for you to think things through before starting the emigration.
Maybe you thought: Let's wash that pig.
As you can see, it's not that simple. SUCCESS.
Dear Hans,
I would like to know what it is based on that you now receive 4% less state pension, because you do not add that.
BEST REGARDS,
Maria
If I am deregistered for two years until I turn 65, I will miss 2 x 2 percent AOW.
Dear Mia, if you no longer pay premiums to the relevant authorities, you will become each
year 2% reduction in your AOW to be paid out.
Dear Hans,
I don't understand where all your problems come from. I personally read the 1975 tax treaty between Thailand and the Netherlands at the Ministry of Finance. If you live in Thailand, you can receive an exemption from the withholding of payroll tax on your private pension (this does not apply to state pensions such as ABP). There is also a scheme for annuities, but it is complicated. When I received my pension, 7 years ago, I applied for a certificate of deregistration in Zwolle (my last place of residence, where I had already been deregistered for 5 years) which states: left for Thailand. I then went to the Embassy with proof that I lived in Thailand and they wrote a statement that I indeed live in Thailand. I sent it to the tax authorities in Heerlen, who then informed my pension fund that they did not have to withhold tax on my pension. I had to do that again after 3 years, and only now did I receive a new exemption again, without any difficulty, with the message that I must submit a new request in 5 years. Whether or not you pay taxes in Thailand is none of Heerlen's business. I think it is wise to report to the tax authorities here and declare (part of) your income.
I also don't understand where the problems come from, but it is now clear that I am not the only one who has problems with 'Heerlen'. He is no longer satisfied with proof from the embassy. Moreover, some tax authorities grant permanent exemption until the person in question lives in the Netherlands again, while Heerlen limits the exemption to a term. What do you mean principle of equality?
Will you let Heerlen know that it is none of their business whether and, if so, how much tax I pay in Thailand? They don't listen to me...
If you have deregistered from the Netherlands, only Heerlen is responsible for your taxes. I never had to prove that I paid taxes in Thailand and proof of deregistration from the Netherlands plus a statement from the embassy was always accepted as proof that I actually reside in Thailand. I also suspect that many tax advisers do not know what to do with the rules for expats, which are different for every country. I don't know why it is so easy for me and so difficult for many. No, I don't have a family member who works for the tax authorities.
That doesn't seem right, Tino. I have copies of exemptions granted by the tax authorities in Amsterdam, Breda, etc. Without any problem and without an expiration date. And proof from the embassy is not (anymore) accepted by Heerlen, as I have stated before.
My experiences with Heerlen deregistration of my best friend from the municipality of Dordrecht. First written out at gem Dordrecht, the next 2 years meant receipt of a tax return ticket from Heerlen. Sent back with "no income, emigrated to Thailand". Then wrote a letter that friend had left for Thailand, plus the address there.
Within 2 months, a confirmation from Heerlen was sent to the address, with the remark that because no more income was received in the Netherlands, deregistration had taken place and you had to report yourself if the situation changed again in the future. No confirmation from embassy or anyone else needed.
So this was someone who did not receive any income/pension from the Netherlands. Can still change in due course as soon as aow benefit for the years of residence in the Netherlands follows. However, it would be free in NL and taxed in TH, while the relevant municipality in Thailand has already said (current situation) not to use the tax option.
Hans you must prove that you are taxable in Thailand. You must do this by applying for a pass that shows you are registered as a taxable person. The easiest is to have a Thai lawyer do this for a few thousand Bhat. If you send a copy of it to Heerlen, things are done in no time. They don't give you that information, but you have to figure that out for yourself. Several friends have done it this way and they are now out of trouble.
Sorry, Hans van den Pitak, I don't believe that. I would like to see such a pass issued by the Thai tax authorities.
The tax treaty with Thailand is quite clear: someone has the choice where to pay tax, in Thailand or in the Netherlands. You inform the tax authorities in the Netherlands that you choose to be regarded as a non-taxable person in the Netherlands, period. Of course you must meet the other conditions. You do not have to prove whether or not you pay tax in Thailand, the possible proof list is with the Tax Authorities.
Hans, the writer, is right, if he meets all the other conditions, it is pure obstruction of Heerlen, possibly caused by incompetence of the treating staff. If Hans has a written rejection, my advice is to submit an official notice of objection, which - hopefully - will be handled by more knowledgeable people.
Gringo whether you believe me or not, the fact is that I have seen such a card before and several friends have one and they have not paid taxes in the Netherlands since then. With that card you show that you are taxable in Thailand. Any good lawyer here can get you one of these. If you prove that you are a taxable person, you do not also have to prove that you actually pay tax. Without a Thai taxpayers card you can shake it until the end of time.
@Hans, whether you believe me or not, the fact is that I have been exempt for years, unlimited in time, from a regional office in the Netherlands.
Just read the tax treaty, then you will see that what I say in my previous response is correct.
Then we know for sure now. There is no uniformity in this and the rules are not applied (the same) everywhere. Might come again sometime.
Are we going to go back to the whole discussion from a month ago? I thought it was finally closed with the conclusion: if you want to emigrate to Thailand (or any other country), you should inform yourself in advance. And especially not entering into negotiations with the Dutch tax authorities on your own. Just hire a tax consultant in advance and let them do the work. In my case I have had no problems with anything for about EUR 300. Matter was arranged in no time. And now I can enjoy Thailand carefree – without eoa “tax pass” – and therefore no longer pay tax in the Netherlands. So, of course, you are no longer insured for medical costs in the Netherlands, because you cannot only have the benefits. Well, health insurance here in combination with excellent hospitals is a much better combination than the Dutch system.
A correct conclusion, although I have been living in Thailand for 6 years and only found out last year that I could use the Univé expat insurance for existing customers. Until then I was bound by Dutch health insurance. We have some differences of opinion about health insurance in Thailand and the excellent hospitals. As for the former, I point to pre-existing conditions and exclusions.
Dear hans van den pitak.
Everyone has one idea or another, but that pass you are talking about, which means you are liable to pay taxes here, can't you just get it at the tax office here in Thailand, or can that only be done through a lawyer?
Gringo,
You have no choice where you are taxable. The treaty regulates where you are taxable!
Have any of you ever had a Conservative attack?
I live in Thailand from October 5, 2005 and received this assessment in May 2008.
It was immediately clear to me why the average age of death of
Dutch here in Thailand is a lot lower than in the Netherlands.
After opening the envelope it said to pay 100166 Euro.
Almost a heart attack, of course. After further reading it said (in the fine print)
that remission will be granted after 10 years (on request).
10 years is obviously a long time. Suppose you become a little demented (I am by then
already well over seventy) and you forget the date, what then? Nicely arranged, right, by our tax authorities.
Cor.
I assume you mean the average age of death in Thailand is a lot higher?
Dear Cornelis, of course you don't get that amount just like that. There is a formula for that and it is also not as dramatic as you describe it. The tax authorities protect themselves by imposing this assessment because you still have accrued pension? Annuity policy? Shares? If you sell it or have it bought off within 10 years of the date of the assessment (so not the date of emigration), then they want to be able to pick you. I also had it, but slightly different because I emigrated within the EU. So if you do nothing with that eg annuity policy in those 10 years (buy off), that assessment will be waived (dementia or not to keep speaking in your terms).
in addition: you are right that you have to apply for this remission after 10 years. So you did fill in an M form?
Dear Cor, Yes I also have a protective tax assessment, but maybe it's something different with me. I have a standing right, for example, and that includes the golden handshake. The tax is of course afraid that I would transfer that entire amount to Thailand in one go, but every month an amount is transferred (tax-free, no payroll tax or national insurance contributions) and that goes hassle-free. The duration is 1 years
My experience: last year 2011 I had to apply for a new exemption because I turned 65. Form sent to Heerlen, also received a message back that I had to prove that I was a tax resident in Thailand. Asked about Immigration in Nakhon Ratchasima and a Certificate of Residence. Had this translated at an official translation agency, both documents were faxed to Heerlen and exemption was arranged. Confirmation within and valid for 5 years. What I do find special is that some get an exemption for 3 years or 5 years or 10 years.
Or even until the moment they return to the Netherlands.
I don't understand all these problems. I have been unloaded for 6 years from the municipality of Soest and entered my new address there. After that I received all important correspondence neatly here at my Thai address.
And yes, even if you live here you still have to pay Dutch tax. That is only because in the past these items were tax-deductible items, such as state pension contributions and pension contributions. The advantages of then are now disadvantages, but you should not complain about it
Hans, good read as always. But still when I write that the average age of death of the Dutch here in Thailand is a lot lower than in the Netherlands.
Does that mean that you die younger here than in the Netherlands? I'm talking about the average age of death, so you die earlier here than in the Netherlands.
Linguistically not good. I do not think so.
Further for Marco. I did not fill in an M form, that was not discussed.
I did write a letter then that my last tax return of 2005 was of no use to me
had to add and therefore had no annuities or equity income.
They had asked for that explanation themselves. I just have to submit that written request after 10 years.
Still standing, what happens when I get dementia.
Cor.
I have been living in Thailand for 9 weeks now and have deregistered from the municipality where I lived in Brabant, now a few weeks ago I received a letter from the tax authorities in Helmond at my address in Thailand, in which they ask me for information about my emigration, because of the consequences for my tax and premium obligation and for the insurance obligation under the Health Insurance Act, with the accompanying forms that I must complete and return as soon as possible in the enclosed return envelope, for shipment from abroad I had to return the envelope franking.
The writing also stated:
If you live in the Netherlands, you are compulsorily insured for the following Dutch national insurance schemes:
– General Old Age Pensions Act (AOW)
– General Surviving Dependents Act (Anw)
– General Exceptional Medical Expenses Act (AWBZ)
– General Child Benefit Act (AKW)
You are also compulsorily insured under the Healthcare Insurance Act (Zvw)
These compulsory insurances end at the time of emigration. You then no longer pay a premium. If you still have income from the Netherlands after emigration, for example income from work, you may still be compulsorily insured for the national insurance and/or Health Insurance Act (Zvw)
To all those people who adopt such an overbearing tone of: “I don't understand why you are making so many problems about the tax exemption, I have done this and that and received tax withholding without any problems, or as some say, my own fault, then you should "but hire a tax advisor", I would like to say that they should realize that they have only had pure luck with the tax inspector who handled their file.
Because from all the responses to this blog, and also from the experiences of my acquaintances here, it appears that the tax authorities are incredibly arbitrariness when it comes to using the "tax treaty".
3 years, 5 years, 10 years, even unlimited tax exemption everything is possible in Heerlen.
Different standards are also used with the proof of being a "tax resident" of Thailand.
Some do not have to prove anything, for others a "Certificate of Residence" from the immigration is sufficient, and others must be able to demonstrate that they are known to the Thai tax authorities (= registered)
Last year I had the same problems as Hans Bos.
I have lived in Thailand for 8 years and have been in the Netherlands for 6 years. Unsubscribed .
I have always been granted an exemption for 3 years by enclosing a “Certificate of Residence” from immigration with my application and extension.
Never a problem.
Until November last year, when I applied for an extension again.
I received in Dec. a letter from Heerlen that this was not tax proof.
She demanded (it was a lady) proof from the Thai tax authorities.
I could jump high , I could jump low and declare that until now a declaration from immigration was always accepted ; I had to go before Dec 27th. have submitted the relevant statement.
I spent 3 full days at the Thai tax office to get a “Certificate of Residence”, was referred to 3 different offices, from Banglamung to Jomtien, then to Chonburi, no one understood or wanted to understand what I was talking about.
Ultimately, I was told in Chonburi that I first had to pay income tax, then I could receive a “Certificate of Residence” after 182 days.
When I called Heerlen, totally discouraged, to say that it took quite a bit of work before I could provide proof that I lived in Thailand, you can guess 3 times what I was told.
“Don't bother anymore Mr. Bosch, your application has now been granted, you have an exemption for 5 years, the letter is on its way to you.
If this isn't arbitrary!
My pants fall off.
So lucky ones who have been waived so far with no issues, I would say,
"Count Your Blessings".
Leo Bosch.
Just to illustrate the arbitrariness of the NL. tax authorities.
For the first 3 years I received a tax exemption on my company pension and on an annuity payment that I was still receiving at the time.
When I applied for an extension of the exemption after 3 years, it was granted for my company pension, but it was rejected for the annuity.
When I indicated that it was first also awarded on the annuity, that was swept off the table.
End of story.
Because it was not such a very large amount and the term of the annuity was only 1 year, I just resigned myself to it.
But all in all it is heavenly.
But I think I once read on this blog that some knowledgeable people on this blog wanted to take the lead in joining forces with us retirees and taking on the tax challenge.
If something gets off the ground, I'm recommended to participate.
Leo Bosch.
When I inquired, I was told that the last tax office in the Netherlands should actually arrange the exemption.
So not Heerlen.
For the Thai tax "obligation", the Thai personal number, as often stated on a Thai driver's license, or especially in the yellow Tambien Baan, applies as the Thai tax number.
And according to Heerlen, that tax number is the “hot point”
After all, a yellow Tambien Job is proof that you are registered in Thailand, and therefore subject to taxation, with the good thing that government pensions are exempt from taxation.
I have received an exemption for an indefinite period through The Hague/Kantoor Gouda by sending the forms to both Gouda and Heerlen, on the advice of an acquaintance.
Received the exemption neatly sent to my address in Thailand, forwarded to my pension fund, which, as it turns out, has also passed on this change to the UWV (AOW)
Within 4 months, no more taxes and premiums were withheld and I simply received the already paid pecunia back in the bank.
Recommended: try to get hold of a yellow Tambien Baan.
Hans,
what did you have to provide to obtain yellow Tambian Baan? Are there any general rules for this? Officials around the world have their own interpretation of the rules. As already mentioned, they are difficult about it here in Korat.
Thanks in advance for your response.
Regards,
RobN
Sorry, I am now reading so much information that I can no longer see the wood for the trees. I wonder if anyone knows how it goes? Thinking that you should take a tax expert in hand in the Netherlands, seems the most sensible to me
When I read Mr Bos' piece I wonder what Mr Bos's background is. He is leaving the Netherlands and should then know that he has to arrange his affairs. He wants to leave the Netherlands and has nothing more to do with the Netherlands PRIMA. The first part of the article by de Bos is about moving or changing a home address, which is a matter for the municipality of Heerlen.
It is tendentious to put a headline above the article and then devote two paragraphs to things that have nothing to do with the headline. If Bos wishes to move to Thailand, the Dutch tax authorities must take into account the time that the post office needs to deliver the correspondence. I think four weeks is a very acceptable time and mr. Bos will receive it a week before the term expires, so….. I think respond quickly and don't complain, you want to change something.
When Mr. Bos does not want to pay payroll tax, it is so strange that the tax authorities ask for information and want to be convinced that the person who asks is also entitled to be exempted from paying tax. Everyone wants an exemption.
Prove that you are entitled to it, if you are entitled to it, the inspector will inform you, that's fine.
Why is Mr. Bos going to ask the Amsterdam, Breda and Enschede offices for a position, while he knows that the Heerlen office is the office for foreign tax matters, seems a bit stupid to me.
Mr. Bos would be wise to choose to stay in Thailand or to stay in the Netherlands and not to complain so much about the things he misses, he can do more with his state pension in Thailand.
I don't think Heerlen has too many tax officials, I think Mr Bos has too much time.
Not that it matters but I work for the club that can't make it more fun.
My background does not play a role in this context. I've been living in Thailand since 2005, registered in NL and pay the full 100 percent tax to the club, which doesn't make it more fun, but it doesn't make it any easier either. This was necessary because I cannot get medical insurance anywhere outside the Netherlands. Arranging everything before you leave is therefore not applicable to me. Moreover, you first want to 'test live' for a while before you go somewhere.
Last year I discovered that I can switch to an expat=insurance at Univé. Then the time has come to have me physically and fiscally deregistered. After all, I haven't used anything in NL (except private) health insurance for six years.
Responding within four weeks of the date is impossible if the incoming letter has already taken three weeks to arrive in Thailand, partly as a result of the floods. Responding by email is not possible at the Tax and Customs Administration and the envelope also contains a letter for someone else. I return it neatly, with the announcement that my answer will undoubtedly arrive too late.
It is strange if the tax authorities ask for proof that I am a tax resident in Thailand if the Thai tax authorities absolutely do not know what the Netherlands means. The treaty concluded in 1975/76 is also clear in this regard.
I have not asked other offices than Heerlen for anything; I have only stated that - based on copies in my possession - I must judge that the aforementioned offices respond differently (and less difficult) to the request for exemption.
I don't complain, tell the sad truth about the state of affairs and have to spend too much time on a nonsensical discussion with Heerlen, while it is abundantly clear that the center of gravity of my life is in Thailand for 50 weeks a year.
If you mean anything in your work for the Tax and Customs Administration, you should be concerned about these kinds of problems. Civil servants are employed and paid by the Dutch population. I notice very little of that service in Heerlen.
But, dear Hans, with all due respect, living in Thailand and registered in the Netherlands? Then you are simply liable for tax in the Netherlands, even if you live in Thailand. That "resident" is a legal term: according to the law you are apparently "resident" in the Netherlands, unless you actually have your deregistration deregistered, only then are you legally "resident" in Thailand and you can be exempted from payroll tax withholding. I have the feeling that you want to combine the advantages of living in Thailand with the advantages of being registered in the Netherlands (insurance companies, for example). There is therefore no point in trying to become a “tax resident” in Thailand as long as you are registered in the Netherlands. The fact that the center of gravity of your life is in Thailand has nothing to do with that. It is sometimes difficult to accept that common sense and legal thinking can be so far apart. The 1975 tax treaty also does not require proof that you are liable to tax in Thailand, only that you are resident in Thailand and therefore deregistered from the Netherlands. I've never had any problems with Heerlen. Maybe it's the official you're dealing with, or maybe I'm a routine case now, but maybe also because I meet all the conditions required by law.
Tino, read the stories carefully first. I have deregistered per 31-12 jl and apply for an exemption per 1-1. What is wrong with that?
Another well-meaning tip:
In addition to a tax advisor, also take a tax postal address in the Netherlands (can be obtained from the advisor)
Let them sort it out.
Don't get angry right away it's really well intentioned.
Another current addition. This morning, January 25, I received a letter from the Heerlen tax authorities asking me to respond only four weeks after the date. The letter is dated December 22….. Fortunately, I sent all collected documents to this tax office at the beginning of January.
This morning I also went to the Thai tax office in Hua Hin, asking if I can get a tax number. The two ladies who spoke to me in broken English absolutely did not understand what was meant. Yes, I can pay tax on the money transferred this year via my Thai bank book, but I will not receive that tax number until 2013. And the money that I transfer is net, so I will pay double for one year, because Heerlen want a paper if necessary….
In the Netherlands you are obliged to ask your questions in Dutch and to understand the answer, it also seems logical to me that when you turn to the Thai tax authorities, you are proficient in the Thai language or you are represented by someone who speaks the language As long as you don't speak the language enough in Thailand, you still have to know the ways to find someone who will do that for you. Everywhere in the world you have to comply with the rules. They are there to strive for legal equality. Rules are there to impose obligations on you, on the other hand you can also deduct rights from them.
Not correct. You may also submit your questions and papers in English in NL. And I believe you can take the theoretical exam for your driver's license in 30+ languages. And for the rest I wish it for you.
Dear Francis
I checked my exemption papers again.
By the way, I had sent a set to Heerlen and a set to the tax authorities of the last place of residence.
Indeed, I now noticed that the Heerlen branch (abroad) sent me a letter that they had forwarded the papers to the last place of residence.
And it is precisely the tax authorities that gave me an exemption and informed me that from then on I only had anything to do with Heerlen.
I also received the refund from the tax authorities of the last place of residence.
Could the button be there?
As far as rules, regulations and similar official matters are concerned, both in the Netherlands and in Thailand there is always a civil servant who thinks he has to work extra hard………
And also in Thailand, provided that one does not speak the Thai language in writing, an exception can be requested to file a tax return in English or Chinese.
As far as the yellow Tambien Baan is concerned, the decisive factor for obtaining that thing is the deregistration from the Netherlands and the establishment in Thailand.
Married, not married, the deregistration from NL translated into Thai is decisive.
A determining factor is whether the owner or main occupant mentioned in the blue Tanbien Baan of the home you may be renting is willing to “guarantee” you on the Amphur.
As for condo owners, unfortunately, I don't know.
Still being checked.
And, right, the personal number mentioned in the TB, for foreigners usually starting with a 6, is therefore also your tax number for Thailand.
And the translated TB is recognized by the tax authorities in your NL residence as registration in Thailand, and ergo, also accepted by the joy service.
Nevertheless, other documents are often regarded as sufficient.
Dear Francis,
I can imagine that as a tax official you feel groped in your crotch, but the criticism you have of Hans Bos' posting makes no sense, but smacks of envy.
Where does it say he wants nothing to do with the Netherlands?
Having to respond within 4 weeks is certainly not an acceptable time if you live in Thailand.
Have you never been to Thailand?
He was lucky that the letter was delivered after only 3 weeks.
It does not say anywhere that he went to the tax offices in Amsterdam, Breda or Enschede to inquire about their position.
Better read, dear Francois.
And it is not at all strange that the tax inspector wants to know whether you are entitled
on exemption, according to the tax treaty with Thailand.
But the enormous arbitrariness that is applied in the application of that law is strange, in fact, is an example of amateurism, or ignorance of the highest order.
If you've read my post, you'll know what I mean.
Regards, Leo Bosch
When I left for Thailand 10 years ago, I asked the Foreign Tax Office in Heerlen in advance for detailed information about the tax consequences of my emigration to this country. I received a simple note “you are taxable in Thailand under the tax treaty; you only have to pay tax in the Netherlands on the AOW. Exemption available on request every 3 years.
Despite the fact that the tax treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand is clear, there are apparently still people at the Foreign Revenue Service in Heerlen who believe they have their own rules. With my last application for an exemption, I got one for 2 years. When I asked if that was a mistake I was told “new policy”!!??
I am therefore surprised to read that some are given an exemption for 5 years. Or could that have to do with the fact that I have now passed the age of 70?
a treaty is a treaty and a tax official cannot deal with it at his own discretion. in addition, it is true that the situations of each individual can be different (what does he/she live on: Aow, dividend, savings, pension or a combination thereof).
I keep saying it: if you want to emigrate 100%, you must seek expert advice in advance. You cannot emigrate "a little". However, you can of course leave everything in the Netherlands as it is (own home address, social insurance, etc.) and stay in your Thai holiday home for several months a year.
everyone seems to have an opinion here, but no one knows exactly how it works. So we can chat on this blog for days, but that won't solve much.
I know exactly how it works. It does not work!
I know. And it works! Exempt as long as I live in Thailand. So Peter.
Hi Hans,
I had also received that tip about yellow Tambien Baan, so on to the local Amphur here in Nakhon Ratchasima. Question that was asked was: are you married to this Thai lady? My answer: no. Response: then you cannot apply for a yellow Tambien Course. Perhaps this also differs per Amphur, but This is Thailand so I am no longer surprised after living here for 5 years.
Gr.,
Rob
Rob,
I am not married to a Thai lady, but I did get a Tambien Job very smoothly. Simply obtained from the municipality where my home is located.
Hans,
so you see, also differs per Amphur.
Teun,
now rules here in Korat also changed, definitely better read. I can now also apply for Tambien Baan.
Gr.,
Rob N
@Chris Hammer,
Until now I have always been granted an exemption for 3 years, until the last application for renewal last year.
Then I got an exemption for 5 years.
I am 77 years old, so it has nothing to do with your age, but I think with complete arbitrariness.
I think you have to be a bit lucky with the officer handling your application.
It's always different for me anyway.
Regards,
Leo Bosch.
Yes, yes, @Teun knows exactly how it works.
Believe me Teun, you can cling your hands to the fact that you have unlimited exemption.
But that is due to the incredible arbitrariness that is used by the tax authorities and not because you know it all so well.
Or do you think all those others who keep having problems with it are all stupid guys?
You were just lucky man, be happy with that, but don't try to belittle others with it and read the lesson.
Leo Bosch.
Leo,
Not I know how it works, but the tax expert I had engaged for that!
If you cannot get a Yellow Housing Book, the only solution is to prove to the Dutch tax authorities that you are liable to pay tax in Thailand, if necessary, to request a Tax certificate from Immigration every year. Provided you legally stayed in Thailand for more than 180 days in the previous year, you should be able to. The Yellow Book is of a higher order than a Tax certificate, but the result is the same.
Sorry, what I call a Tax Certificate here is correctly listed below by Rob N as a Certificate of Residence, necessary to prove you are a tax resident in Thailand if you don't own a Yellow Book
Erik,
unfortunately no Yellow Housing Book possible for me. Went to Immigration here in Nakhon Ratchasima in April 2011 for Certificate of Residence. When asked what I needed it for, my answer was: Dutch Taxes. Such a Certificate of Residence can also be used, for example, for the purchase of a new car that is registered in one's own name. Finally got Certificate of Residence, had paper translated into English and sent by fax to Heerlen. This statement was accepted and I was exempted for 5 years. I have deregistered from the Netherlands and have been living permanently in Thailand since January 2007.
Dear readers.
I get a bit (scribbling) when I read all the responses, sometimes I really miss what the intention is.
Is it intended to seriously help or inform content, or does better know syndrome strike.
When someone indicates that they have a problem with something, or just want to exchange information, remain objective and take the questioner seriously.
No one is waiting for an unworkable solution, and remarks think before you start, are usually from the scientist who knows how to say it perfectly afterwards, that he already knew it all beforehand..
Otherwise, a top site.
Compliments to the editors
Ad
Dear Ad,
They mean that before emigrating, one must first arrange everything properly in the Netherlands.
I have lived here for over 4 years now. But go back to the Netherlands in March for two months to arrange things.
If you do this later, very strange situations arise. For example: I recently experienced that an envelope full of Christmas cards, sent in mid-December, did not arrive until January 20. How can you respond to that within 4 weeks?
Needed a certificate for the Belgian tax authorities that my wife has no income.
Mail sent to the “Revenue Department” and answered the next day with telephone number in BKK.
Woman called and document must be delivered by local chapter of “Revenue Department”
Went there in the afternoon here in Hang-Dong and walked out an hour later with the stamped document, even in English.
Well “this is also Thailand”
What a lot of stories and with a high Fabetljeskrant quality. I do not have proof that you are liable to pay taxes in Thailand. I don't have proof that you pay taxes in Thailand. It makes a difference whether you rent or buy here: none of that is true. I know Dutch people in Thailand who use the 'year after' method (just read a large Dutch-language forum) and who cannot even get an explanation from the tax authorities.
You have to prove or make strong plausible two things. Are you really out of the Netherlands, and where do you live? The first is quite simple if you don't leave any real estate, car, non-life insurance. Bank accounts: no problem. By the way: I still own an immovable property in the Netherlands. I haven't been to the Netherlands for ten years.
Where is the center of your social and economic life after emigration? Social life: where do you live, do you play sports, 'culture', where does your 'loved one' live. Economic life: where do you spend the money.
For the first exemption you will have to pack plenty of evidence. I often hear that the first application is difficult. That request must therefore be well documented. Then you will receive the exemption if you are entitled to it. Stories that people try to keep money in the Netherlands…? Nonsense, the officials simply implement the laws and treaties. What I read there is a political point of view, perhaps a wish of a political party, but not a law,
I now have the third exemption, I'm 65 so it runs for 10 years.
Further; the newer treaties contain a provision that if the new country of residence does not levy, the Netherlands may still levy. After all, it is a treaty to avoid double taxation, not a treaty to pay no tax at all…. but that rule is not included in the treaties with Thailand and the Philippines, among others.
Did the people who complain like this really submit their applications in order? have they reported their emigration to the tax authorities and requested and completed the relevant form? Do those people have a postal address in the Netherlands for their tax affairs because the post in Thailand sometimes wants…..
I think the complainants should check their papers again.
I also miss whether the writers have an exemption from national insurance contributions; if you don't have that either, your emigration is a question for the tax authorities!
And if it doesn't work out and you think you are entitled to an exemption, submit a notice of objection AFTER the payment of a pension/AOW/income installment where any form of withholding has taken place. I have lost track of the terms for this (I have been out of the Netherlands for 10 years), but that is the right way to take the first step. It is not possible to lodge an objection against the refusal of the exemption.
I wish you all success.
@Erik: a good story and I also think that you are very right with what you say. However, you should not forget that filling in the correct papers and meeting the other conditions is not easy for everyone. A mistake has been made!
The Tax Treaty with Thailand is different from many other tax treaties and my advice to many is therefore to hire a good advisor, who is particularly familiar with the state of affairs regarding Thailand.
Jaap says in a response (10,58 at the beginning of all responses), that he has had good experiences with one Marty German in Sprang Capelle. That could well be The Tip of the Year, see also his website.
Good luck to everyone with a problem with the tax authorities!
To each his trade and mine was taxes. I had no problem with the consequences of my emigration. I could handle it alone. I can imagine that people have no experience with these and more things and start muddling through and then you get this kind of misery.
I am part of a large Dutch-language forum and have already been able to help a few people with good information about drawing up the request for exemption and especially which attachments are really necessary. As a forum member you just do that for each other.
But the biggest problem is not displaying the problem correctly, also in this thread. And then it is difficult to help.
Dear readers,
No, it is not always due to the applicant's carelessness, I submitted an application for exemption and was rejected.
The rejection letter states that the reason for rejection is included in an attachment, but no attachment was found.
Despite my explicit request to send the documents to my correspondence address in the Netherlands, I still sent them to Thailand and spent more than 2 months on the road.
Contacted the tax Heerlen that I would like to have the letter with attachment. Again requested to send it to my correspondence address.
Result copy has been sent back to my Thai address.
And to top it off and believe it or not, there was actually an attachment.
A BLANK sheet of paper.
Well if you want to reject you do it that way they can't make it easier.
The application has been resubmitted with the help of a forum member, I'm very curious.
Erik'
“Muddling through” is the right word. Without expert help and without a fiscal postal address, you get this kind of situation.
You could do this yourself, but most people couldn't and then you get situations like this.
Still, I would have liked to see you look at the matter from the other side, for example: tax discouragement policy, insufficient knowledge and skills of the relevant civil servant, etc. Then your argument might have been less one-sided.
For the rest: excellent presentation.
Dear @Erik Kuijpers,
Applying for tax exemption was not that complicated for me at all.
Complete an application form, provide proof of deregistration from the GAB, and include proof that you indeed live in Thailand.
That's all.
I therefore do not believe that if you are not a tax expert, you are just muddling through.
The problem is that there is such uncanny arbitrariness in assessing and awarding the application, and assessing proof that you live in Thailand
But if you are such an expert, you will certainly have an explanation why the applications for exemption and extension are honored so differently.
I am very curious about your answer.
If you read my comments from 24 Jan.jl. read you will understand what I mean.
Further this.
You write: “I now have the third exemption, I am now 65, SO it now runs for 10 years”.
Are you suggesting that you get a 10-year extension when you turn 65?
I am also very curious about this answer.
Gr.
Leo Bosch
Just one more addition: Read it all:
NRC.NL chaos at the tax authorities what are your experiences?
I have checked it. I have the fourth exemption, not the third, the fourth started on my 65th birthday, November 2011, and runs until October 2021. So ten years.
Random, that word comes up a few times. I can't judge that, I have different experiences. But I do have the strong impression that the office 'abroad' is overburdened and that people are chasing backlogs and perhaps less experienced people are allowed to work on the files. Then you will get errors and you will also deviate from a code of conduct. Too bad, shouldn't be, but politics determines the occupation of government services and people cut back, as you know.
I can only advise to document the first application amply with attachments, photos, ownership papers of car and motorcycle, driver's license, passport stamps, customer cards from shops, Thai bank book showing that you use ATMs in Thailand, etc etc and then it should work.
I also read about the changed approach to annuity payments. That's right, it's been written about in forums. I did have an annuity waiver and didn't work from "new policy." I know where the crux is in this one and it's just waiting for someone to take the agency's position to court. But are you going to do that when it comes to a few percent taxation in bracket 1 while litigation costs money?
@Erik Kuijpers.
You turned 65 last year, and your extension you applied for last year is good for 10 years.
So these are two facts that, in my opinion, are unrelated.
And is therefore very different from what you first claimed: "I turned 65 last year, SO my exemption has now run for 10 years."
With this you suggest that getting an exemption for 10 years is the result of turning 65, and that puts people on the wrong track.
Until now I have always been exempted for 3 years and now suddenly for 5 years.
I'm happy with it, but I still wonder why I only got it for 3 years at first. And why you, for example, for 10 years?
Perhaps arbitrarily?
You couldn't answer that for me.
If you think it has something to do with age, I am 77 years old!.
Furthermore, I must conclude from your last response that your opinion has turned 180 degrees.
Now it is not the applicant who muddles along without a tax advisor or without your expert advice, but now you admit that the tax authorities are making a mess of things.
And to blame politicians for the fact that the tax authorities are just muddling along because cuts need to be made is a bit of a simplistic approach.
The cutbacks are recent, but the tax abuses have been there for years.
I'm sorry, but I really doubt your expertise now.
In my earlier response you could read that I had no problems at all with my first application.
Complete the application form correctly (you really don't need a tax advisor for that).
Include proof of deregistration from the GAB pus proof that you live in Thailand.
No problem.
Until now you could prove the latter with a Certificate of Residence from the Thai immigration, but now people in Heerlen are suddenly only satisfied with proof that you are registered with the Thai tax authorities.
Or, if you fail to do so (as in my case), proof of immigration is suddenly sufficient.
Kick me over.
But what you're dragging along like sending photos, driver's license, car papers, stamps in passport, Thai bank book, etc., I very much doubt whether this will make any difference.
Gr. Leo Bosch
climb,
The most important thing is (and this is also confirmed by my own adviser) that after the reorganization at the BD, all the better civil servants have resigned and trained as tax advisers. What remains are the complainants. And they just do something.
You have now become the victim of that.
That is also clearly visible in everything. SUCCESS.
Leo, your doubt is not mine. But you are free.
I have always had three years of exemption, the last time a little more, namely up to 65, and now ten years. That's a "so" to me.
I didn't say that the tax authorities make a mess of it, that's your words. Please re-read my comment on that point. I think you're putting words in my mouth that I didn't use. I consider that highly inappropriate.
I have worked in tax consultancy for 30+ years and my experience with the civil servants has been nothing but positive, although we rarely agreed… but that is part of the job.
The request to provide proof that you are registered with the Thai tax authorities is not supported by the treaty. This provision is currently missing in a number of older treaties, such as the treaty with Thailand and the Philippines. But I suspect that the tax authorities use a standard sentence; Until very recently, that question was even worded differently than it is now. I have never handed in such a paper simply because I don't have it. I use the 'year after' method and my income from the Netherlands is therefore untaxed in Thailand.
And as far as the delivery of documents is concerned: I have become wise through the experience of people. As mentioned, the first application can sometimes run smoothly. Then you may remember that the free theory of proof applies in this regard. You may use all relevant data to demonstrate where your place of residence is, the center of your social and economic life. And that's what I recommend. As you say, as a long-stayer I am ready with a few sheets of paper and not with those you mention, I don't even need them. But that doesn't apply to everyone, unfortunately. It should be uniform. And as long as that is not uniform, I advise on the basis of practical cases. Whatever you think you should think about that.
And, I repeat, if you do not get an income tax exemption, or if you do not get it when it comes to withholding tax, you can lodge an objection against the deduction from your income from the Netherlands. You don't need an advisor for that; it is free of form but bound to a time limit.
Does that cost money? There will surely be someone, in Thailand, who will prepare the matter and guide you for free. We retirees have nothing to do…and have that time. The blog rules don't allow me to give more than my name but I am always willing to help people.
And, at that stage, you provide as complete evidence as possible and then the evidence comes into play that I just mentioned and which an esteemed writer slammed. The free theory of proof; you may demonstrate with all relevant documents where the center of your social and economic life is. Just as the tax authorities are allowed to prove, demonstrate and make plausible the contrary with everything at their disposal.
After all, it is up to the court if the parties allow it to come this far. But unfortunately going to court costs money, And what did I read recently about increasing court fees? It will be prohibitive (inhibiting, forbidding…) for many people.
Dear brave @Erik Kuijpers,
You have a very short memory.
In your response of 28 Jan. 04.23 am you write ,and now I quote :
"But I do have the strong impression that the "abroad" office is overloaded and people are chasing backlogs and perhaps letting less experienced people work on the files.
Then you get mistakes and a course of action is also deviated from.”
End quote.
Look dear Eric, that's what they call at my house: "making a mess of it."
Leo Bosch.
You are deliberately twisting my words. You can. Have a nice Sunday, Leo.
What I would like to know, can you keep your house in the Netherlands ???
I think that shouldn't be a problem. You may even spend some time there each year. That does not mean that the tax authorities just agree with it.
If you emigrate abroad, in this case Thailand, and want to make use of the tax treaty between Thailand and the Netherlands, you are not allowed to own a home in the Netherlands (and you must be/remain registered to have a rental home permanently). so that stands in the way of emigration.
If you rent a house/apartment during your “holiday” in the Netherlands for the duration of your stay, that is no problem. after all, you are a holidaymaker.
Teun,
(I think you are the man who arranged it so well in advance, so I will now do it too) I think you are no longer allowed to have any possessions in the Netherlands at all, such as a company. According to my information, bank loans are immediately withdrawn .
And indeed no real estate in your name.
Following on from my previous comments on this topic.
So last year I applied for my exemption, with the already known result rejected.
And when asked at the tax telephone, I had to prove that I paid taxes!!! and with the message whatever you do show it but I could do it.
Because it was a rejection without substantive reason, I simply submitted another request with the help of Peter.
And just about everything I could find to prove that I live in Thailand is included, including rental contracts, proof of ownership, car, scooter, electricity bills, water, telephone.
And don't mind any proof that I actually pay taxes here.
The result is that the request has been granted. The exemption applies until I reach the age of 65.
The application was sent on 16 Jan this year and received a message today 20 Feb.
So I don't think there is any delay here.
It was not very easy, but fortunately with Peter's help it was doable.
So you don't need an (expensive) tax specialist from the Netherlands for that.
And no tax ID either??
so it really works for everyone who is working on it.
Success.
Dear Ad,
With this you have sharply curbed the arbitrariness with which every request for exemption is honored, as I have written before.
One gets an exemption if he can present a Tambien Baan (the yellow housebook).
The other like me, for example, gets it on presentation of a Certificate of Residence from Thai immigration.
And you will receive it upon presentation of a number of documents that absolutely do not prove that you are actually a tax resident of Thailand. or even lives here permanently.
That is the requirement set by the Dutch tax authorities.
Anyway, it's nonsense what the tax wants to see demonstrated.
If you have been deregistered in the Netherlands and your address in Thailand is known to the GAB, and Thai immigration provides a statement that you actually live here, that seems more than sufficient to me.
But I'm glad it worked out for you in the end.
I have one more question for you,
You write that you have been granted an exemption until the age of 65.
I know that with the number of years of exemption, enormous arbitrariness is also applied.
3 years, 5 years, 10 years, even unlimited is given.
Until you are 65 , how many years of exemption is that in your case ?
I'm curious.
Regards, Leo Bosch.
Dear Leo,
What you write in your response is not entirely correct, namely that I was given an exemption without having demonstrated that I even live here permanently.
Because that's exactly what I did prove. And the application accompanied by the residence statement was rejected, the annoying thing was that the rejection lacked a clear motivation.
It was only stated that I was not demonstrably liable for tax.
And on info from the tax phone it was stated that I had to prove this by means of an assessment from the Thai tax authorities.
What is clear is that there is no clear description of what you must submit for exemption.
But the treaty says in this case that you have to show where your center of your social and economic life is.
And how that is assessed by the tax authorities in the Netherlands is, in my opinion, the big problem. Burden of proof is private and you can at most give a direction to this, but tax leaves this completely open, and then arbitrariness lurks around the corner.
Regards Ad
Dear Leo,
How can you determine whether or not Ad has demonstrated that his "tax" residence is Thailand. I assume that Ad has not given you a list of which data has been sent to the Dutch tax authorities.
I do have an idea what he sent and on the basis of this data it was irrefutable evidence that the center of his vital interests is in Thailand.
He therefore lives in Thailand!
Peter.
Dear Peter,
You must read Ad's reaction of 19 Feb. read it more closely, in it he does describe very accurately which documents he has submitted to obtain tax exemption.
Whether he has also demonstrated that the center of his life interests lies in Thailand and therefore also lives in Thailand is highly debatable.
See my response to Ad for further comment
Greetings,
Leo Bosch.
Dear Leo,
Now try to stay focused, in the first place in my opinion this blog is to help each other.
And certainly not a place to put your own right above everything, and read carefully I said in my response. OA and that means Among Others. And that is not a complete overview.
Please stop talking about this and do what this blog is intended to do, help each other.
And now a POINT.
P,s Peter is well aware of my request.
Ad
Dear Ad,
By submitting the documents as you describe, you have met the standards set by the tax authorities to get a tax exemption, but that is really not irrefutable proof, as Peter states, that you actually live here permanently, and certainly not proof that you are also taxable here.
Anyone who has a relationship in Thailand, a wife or a girlfriend, can in principle live in the Netherlands. have it deregistered, buy a car or motorbike here, rent a condo, pay for electricity and water, everything in his name, submit proof of this (bills, contracts) to the tax authorities, apply for tax exemption, and spend most of the year in the Netherlands. stay at a place to stay and, for example, visit his girlfriend twice a year.
But this applies to all so-called proof, such as the yellow house booklet, or the Certificate of Residence, with which you can prove that you are a so-called “tax resident” of Thailand.
This shows that like the tax treaty between NL. and Thailand is interpreted by the tax officials in NL. is a farce.
Because no pensioner here in Thailand is a tax resident or tax resident as the tax authorities demand, unless he is employed here or has a company.
But that was not the purport of my earlier response of February 20, by the way.
The essence of my response was to demonstrate the arbitrariness used by the various tax officials in applying the tax treaty.
One gets an exemption if he presents a certificate of residence , the other gets an exemption if he shows that he has the yellow house book , and yet another has to send a suitcase full of bills, driver's licenses and contracts.
Not to mention that one person receives 3 years, another 5 years and still others 10 years or even unlimited exemption, without any explanation as to why a certain period is used.
By the way, you did not answer my question, how many years have you been granted an exemption.
If you prefer not to say that, OK, no problem, but say so honestly.
Regards ,
Leo Bosch.
Every time I get a 'Request new statement'' from the tax authorities together with
exemption sent. There are only 2 questions.
A. Are you still considered a tax resident?
B. enclose proof.
I then go to the municipality where I have been registered since 2001.
The municipal official then types a small note with my address and age, puts one
stamp on it, then I have it translated into English at a recognized translation agency.
Which also puts a stamp on it. Both papers >> Thai and English << I will send to
Heerlen. Never had a problem.
@jogchum,
That is the umpteenth variant as proof for the tax authorities that you live in Thailand.
You are one lucky Jogchum.
If you've been following the responses to this topic, you should know that a lot of people are having more trouble getting an exemption.
Some send packs of documents to prove they live in Thailand and propagate that way to others as well.
This has shown for the umpteenth time that every civil servant has different requirements, and if you go along with them, you are at the mercy of complete arbitrariness.
Leo Bosch.
people,
what a hassle. I am exempt from the Dutch tax authorities as long as I live in Thailand. so you can keep whining and talking about it. Hire an expert and DNA will clear everything up. only: you have to make a few principled choices. As long as you want all the benefits of the Netherlands and all the benefits of Thailand, it just won't work!
Qty
Author: teun
Comment:
dear leo,
To begin with, I don't accept that it is solely a matter of luck. In this way, treaties concluded between countries cannot be implemented.
Basic choices are:
1. 100% emigrate to (in this case) Thailand
2. no longer want the benefits of the Dutch system (insurance, etc.). So just take out health insurance in Thailand (and if that is not possible due to an existing illness, then you cannot emigrate. You then keep your Dutch insurance, but also remain subject to the Dutch tax system).
and I have already sent the name and address details of my tax advisor to Hans Bos (Asian Press, Hua Hin). So you can possibly contact them. And again: I have an exemption "as long as I live in Thailand".
Unqte
Dear Teun,
I am not going to venture into a battle of words, but I will write down my own experience here once more, just as you also mention your own experience.
Deregistered from the Netherlands on December 18, 2006, tax year 2006 closed on December 31 of the same year.
Departed for Thailand on December 31, 2006, arrived there on January 1, 2007.
Applied for an exemption from wage tax and national insurance contributions, sent together with Certificate of Residence and received an exemption until December 1, 2007 because the name of my benefit was changed from Surplus benefit to Pre-pension on that date.
Again applied for exemption and this time valid until June 2011, ie until 1 day before my 65th birthday.
Submitted a new application in January 2011 and this time received an exemption until June 30, 2016 (so 5 years).
Accompany all my applications to date with Certificate of Residence (Thai plus officially translated English version).
Funny thing is that my house was only sold in September 2007, so I did have property in NL in 2007, but still got an exemption.
However, I have also heard (not officially confirmed) that people who receive ABP pension have indeed been granted an exemption for the length of time that they live in Thailand, of course I do not know whether this also applies to you.
Taking out health insurance in Thailand is not easy, most insurances stop at the age of 69. Have your own health insurance with Asia Expats. There are also people who live permanently in Thailand, have been deregistered from a European country of residence and bear the risk for any medical costs themselves. So emigration is possible if you are willing to take a risk in terms of medical costs. To be clear: I did not want that and I am well insured
I didn't need a tax advisor because I knew something about taxes myself.
For those who need it, a tax advisor is good advice.
Regards,
Rob N.
No, dear Teun, if your expert had met a tax official who had interpreted the tax treaty in his way, your expert (i.e. you) could have had the same problems.
It has been found that every office or official gives its own explanation of how you must prove that you are actually a resident of Thailand.
And if you think you know so well which basic choices you have to make, why don't you share that wisdom with us people who just keep whining and talking?
I'm curious what you have to tell us.
Leo Bosch.
dear leo,
To begin with, I don't accept that it is solely a matter of luck. In this way, treaties concluded between countries cannot be implemented.
Basic choices are:
1. 100% emigrate to (in this case) Thailand
2. no longer want the benefits of the Dutch system (insurance, etc.). So just take out health insurance in Thailand (and if that is not possible due to an existing illness, then you cannot emigrate. You then keep your Dutch insurance, but also remain subject to the Dutch tax system).
and I have already sent the name and address details of my tax advisor to Hans Bos (Asian Press, Hua Hin). So you can possibly contact them. And again: I have an exemption "as long as I live in Thailand".
@Leo Bosch,
I worked at a metal company in the Netherlands. The last few years have been very bad. A lot of
too few orders. First, the young people were fired. One day the director also came
to me and asked…..do you want to get out too jogchum? You've always said that when you're with
You can retire to Thailand right away, I'm giving you the chance now.
My answer was “yes” but what about the money? Well, we'll arrange that....
come to my office.
This story took place when the “VUT” still existed. I was 58 years old.
I then entered early VUT. I received less then, but my employer supplemented that through the Amerfore insurance until I was 65 years old.
I was also allowed to go to a tax consultancy at his expense. I can name that
writing desk not good but it's hot something like;; Loyd and Toutch. That desk has front
arranged everything for me in NL. That desk made me feel like this as soon as I arrived in Thailand
register as soon as possible with the municipality where my place of residence fell.
My Thai wife and I went to the municipality immediately after the day of arrival
gone. The officer typed a short note with my address and age. Then leave
translate into english.
Send both papers to that advice office in NL as soon as possible. My wife
also lived in NL at the time
My advice is therefore let it be done by an advisory tax office, which in my case
was completely free. I don't know what the actual price is at such an office
but you also have to do very little for it.
I am now 69 years old, I have lived in Thailand for almost 12 years and I am exempt from tax until July 1, 2015. I got a 5 year exemption last time.
Dear Teun,
Whether you like it or not, if you were to read Hans Bos's posting and the reactions of various bloggers to it more closely, you might come to the conclusion that they are not all whining and talking about things, but that the tax authorities handle the tax treaty in quite different ways, and that one inspector imposes different requirements on proof that you are a resident of Thailand than another.
Or are Hans Bos and all those bloggers such stupid guys?
What you claim that you have to make principled choices makes no sense at all.
You can only emigrate for 100%.
That's not a choice.
Because if you deregister with the GAB, because of emigration to Thailand, you will automatically be removed from the health insurance.
You have no choice in this.
And if there are people who want to spend a lot of money on an expert, they should know that themselves, but it is not necessary,
Even if you only have MAVO with a fun package, it is very easy to do it yourself.
In principle, the procedure is quite simple.
You apply to the tax authorities for an application form for tax exemption in connection with emigration to Thailand.
You really don't need a VWO education to fill that in.
You then send it in, together with your proof of deregistration from the GAB and a statement from Thai immigration (Certificate of Residence).
That's all.
Leo Bosch.
Dear Leo,
So it is apparently simple. Because the treaty is clear. Then my question is simple: why does everyone "whine" about it? Just follow your advice and we can consider this topic closed. Furthermore: how can you know how much money I have or have not spent on my advisor in this matter? I never gave any indication for that.
And I have never made a comment about the required level of education. Why do you think I provided Hans Bos with my advisor's name and address details? Correct. Because he himself asked me for it by email.
Now that you and I have our exemption, I suggest you get on with enjoying life in Thailand.
Dear Teun
This is the last I want to say about it.
Once again it appears that you are not reading it properly.
I have said that the procedure to apply for an exemption is quite simple.
I did not claim that the treaty is simple.
I don't know how much money you spent on an advisor, I'm not interested and I never claimed to be.
I said, if there are people who want to spend a lot of money on an advisor, they should decide for themselves.
And furthermore you still don't see that all these bloggers who have problems with the tax authorities do not complain about their exemption, but that they complain, and rightly so in my opinion, about the fact that there are a number of tax officials who are extremely difficult to grant of tax exemption.
Bless you lucky man that you have found a good one.
I criticize the tax authorities, because it irritates me very much that we pensionadas are not treated equally in terms of tax exemption.
But I am glad that I have now been granted an exemption for 11 years without too much effort (except for a small problem).
Best wishes.
Leo Bosch.
Dear Leo,
Happiness happens to compel you. AND it cannot be the case that you and I have the desired exemption in a relatively simple way, while “others” have many problems.
This is really the last thing I will say about it: SO IT CAN BE SIMPLE.
Either you tinker yourself or you hire (a good) someone.
Hello!! Best wishes. For those still struggling:
1. do as Leo did
2. or call in a real expert.
I also wish everyone a “happy life” in beautiful Thailand.
Teun
I kept reading after my reactions and I get the impression that things are no different in the Netherlands than in Thailand. No fixed line, just like we lack here at the offices of the aliens police. Each office has its own rules.
I can imagine that you ask for more evidence when applying for an exemption for the first time; people want to get to know their Pappenheimers. But that only has an effect if you are always treated by the same official.. and that is an illusion. I sent more than what you say for the first application, but after that only passport stamps and an explanation and it was a piece of cake. Now I have an exemption for 10 years. I even have an exemption for the AOW benefit and that is not possible, AOW falls under national legislation…
There is pain in the Netherlands with some tax treaties. The treaty with Thailand is one of them. The treaty lacks the new provision that you cannot get an exemption in the paying country if the new country of residence does not levy. Thailand does not, I say emphatically, not yet levy occupational pensions and annuities from the Netherlands. So this treaty to avoid double taxation has become a treaty not to pay at all… and that was never the intention. But amending a treaty lasts until Sint Juttemis……
It would be to the credit of the NL tax authorities if it would clearly indicate which things they want to see as proof of emigration. But even then… you don't get those supporting documents everywhere in Thailand. At the municipality where I live, they will never issue a statement; the tax authorities here refuse to register me, the aliens police do not issue proof of residence except for a driving license or the purchase of a motor vehicle. That leaves other things such as passport stamps or better: the lack thereof. Because then you can prove that you will not leave this country again.
I have also experienced that the service in Heerlen has backlogs. And then people want to settle an incomplete application or a lack of clarity with a 'no'. They're just people too, you know.
I think you have to learn to live with that fact and adapt your application to the requirements. Well, if you live in Thailand you have to adapt to so many things that an extra copy is also possible. Not ?
Erik,
you state that you "even" have an exemption for your AOW and that you cannot, because AOW is subject to national legislation. That seemed illogical to me, because why would it "be possible" with "ordinary company pension" (= after all, the same system ie premium deductible and benefits taxed just like with AOW).
So I just sent an email to SVB (AOW benefits agency) asking whether I will also receive my AOW gross = net in due course.
I don't want to withhold the answer from you:
"
Dear sir,
Your AOW pension will be paid gross and net. We request that you contact us about 6 months before you turn 65 so that we can send you the necessary forms for applying for AOW pension.
No rights can be derived from the answer to this e-mail.
Yours faithfully,
Mrs. T. Pangad
Department of Services
Social Insurance Bank Roermond
"
So I think this is a reassuring message for you. You just rightly receive your state pension without deductions for social security charges, taxes, etc.
Dear Erik,
The Dutch tax authorities will never tell you exactly how everything works and what exactly is required as proof. People like to keep a tight rein and not be pinned down to exact rules. That is a conscious tactic or policy.
Hi Eric Kuijpers,
Your experiences also show once again what is wrong with the NL. tax authorities.
I do not understand that there are still readers of this blog (and I do not want to name names), who also read these negative experiences and still think that the tax authorities are infallible, and defend their policies with fire and sword.
I wish all these responses would be read by the executives of the tax authorities.
Maybe then something would change.
Leo Bosch.
Well, but it could well be that there is a lot of fraud and people therefore look with suspicion at everything that is supplied. So far I have not experienced any problems with my requests and the telephone contact with one of the people there is always excellent. But let me be honest, I come from the tax services industry and know the procedures they follow and act in that spirit.
In my hometown here in Thailand, there is so much rumbling by or for farang that the Immigration Police here even want the embassy-certified letter checked by the consular service of the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs….. They take a unique position with that, but yes , I live in this province and 'married' them whether I like it or not. Grin and bear it, as with so much in this wonderful land.
Dear Leo,
As far as I'm concerned, it's best to name names. I have never expressed an opinion on the (in)fallibility of the Tax and Customs Administration. I have also never made a statement about the policy they pursue, let alone that I have defended it “with fire and sword”.
I have only advised – to avoid a lot of annoyance as many on this blog have experienced – to call in an expert. You wouldn't let the butcher operate on you, would you? And whether that expertise costs money makes sense to me. Or did you used to work for nothing.
I think that tax advisors have a right to exist for a reason. If only because they - in addition to tax knowledge - also have good contacts within the Tax and Customs Administration.
Finally. I understand your wish that executives of the Tax and Customs Administration would read this blog on this subject, but I think that will remain a utopia.
QteAuthor: support
Comment:
Erik,
you state that you "even" have an exemption for your AOW and that you cannot, because AOW is subject to national legislation. That seemed illogical to me, because why would it "be possible" with "ordinary company pension" (= after all, the same system ie premium deductible and benefits taxed just like with AOW).
So I just sent an email to SVB (AOW benefits agency) asking whether I will also receive my AOW gross = net in due course.
I don't want to withhold the answer from you:
"
Dear sir,
Your AOW pension will be paid gross and net. We request that you contact us about 6 months before you turn 65 so that we can send you the necessary forms for applying for AOW pension.
No rights can be derived from the answer to this e-mail.
Yours faithfully,
Mrs. T. Pangad
Department of Services
Social Insurance Bank Roermond
"
So I think this is a reassuring message for you. You just rightly receive your state pension without deductions for social security charges, taxes, etc.
Unqte
Think that there may still be a surprise when AOW is paid out. I do indeed have a deduction for payroll tax applied. to admit is not a large amount, around 17 Euro. I checked this with the source, Belastingdienst Buitenland in Heerlen and they told me that they do apply the payroll tax on AOW, so payable in the Netherlands. Is neatly listed on the overview of SVB.
What the SVB is doing is, in principle, wrong; AOW is subject to national law, after all it is NOT included as a component in the treaty, and the tax authorities have confirmed this to me in a letter
In practice, for people who have a reduction and no state pension, the AOW benefit will be so low in addition to the state pension that the system of the (in this case limited) general tax credit and the system of assessment limits will result in zero withholding. It would be zero even without an exemption.
AOW has been allocated to the Netherlands for tax purposes. That is reassuring if Thailand also wants to levy because the Thai rates are higher than the Dutch rates without the national insurance.
Further; If you have a state pension in addition to the AOW, you will find out where the AOW is taxed: in NL. Then the bracket rate is applied to the sum of the benefits.
Finally: when it comes to tax liability, why not ask the tax authorities? I did and their answer is in line with the treaty
No problem, Hans: a payroll tax of 1,8% is applied to my AOW and pension from ABP, the exemption applies to my company pensions.