Arranging your cremation before you die…
The article about the 'cozy' cremation I wanted has stirred up quite a bit. And made several acquaintances think. The question that kept popping up was: I no longer have contact with children and relatives in the Netherlands. I don't want to bother them with this after my death either. How can I already arrange for my death to be cremated in Thailand?
Of course I will first consult His Majesty's Embassy in Bangkok. That must form the link between the Dutch family and the Thai authorities. The simple question is: After death, someone from the immediate family must give permission for the cremation. There are people who live in conflict with one or more children.
Can this be avoided, for example by prior consent or by including such a clause in a will?
The answer doesn't quite match the question. Attaché Dirk Camerlingh writes: “The Thai authorities usually request a letter of consent from the embassy by which the embassy on behalf of family / next of kin gives permission for the release of the remains to a funeral company. If the person in question is married, this will be the legal wife. If there is no marriage, the embassy will contact family/ next of kin via the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in The Hague and they must indicate what will happen to the body. The person himself can of course make clear agreements with family members and record them in writing, for example in a will so that it is clear what his or her wishes are at the time of death. The employees of the consular section of the embassy do not have notarial authority and are not specialized in this matter. Therefore, for a conclusive answer, I would like to refer you to a Thai civil-law notary who can provide you with further information about drawing up a will / last will and testament in Thailand. Information can easily be found via Google.
So we're not making much progress with that. Ambassador Karel Hartogh replies to my frown: "Camerlingh and Haenen (head of consular affairs) have no room, on the basis of their instructions, to go beyond the answer they gave."
An even stranger thing. As a link, the embassy must know how the procedure proceeds in the event of death, right? That's not a state secret, is it?
Then straight to the head office, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in The Hague. Spokesperson Daphne Kerremans does know the ins and outs.
Spokespersons are indeed done in The Hague, to spare the posts and to provide you with an answer as quickly as possible. Here's the answer:
- Every year, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs receives about 80 reports of the death of Dutch nationals in Thailand that are linked to a request for help.
- The request for help is usually informing family in the Netherlands or the question of what should be done with the body.
- The ministry will inform the family in the Netherlands if they are not yet aware or if it is not certain that the family is aware.
- The next of kin of the deceased are checked via the GBA (the municipal basic administration). That could be the wife or the children.
- In some cases there is a Thai – not legal – partner. For Foreign Affairs, the registered partner is leading.
- The wish of the family is followed. It often happens that family in the Netherlands no longer wants to have anything to do with the deceased. Then a waiver is drawn up (declaration from the wife/children with a copy of their passports) and the Thai relationship can decide what happens to the body.
So far the response from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The central question is whether the Dutchman can arrange things before his death, possibly in a will. Kerrremans: “It is certainly possible to record this in a will, both in Thailand and in the Netherlands. The waiver can also be signed for death, but in fact no one does that. In any case, we have never experienced it.”
That is clear language, which the embassy did not want to burn its fingers on.
Then I consult my own lawyer, who also drafted my will, Mam Patcharin of Koral-Legal Law Office for the Thai side of the matter.
“I have asked at the district office (amphoe). Basically the amphoe only does the registration of death and issues a death certificate so they have nothing to do with the body arrangement.
I asked one of local hospital in Korat. The operator said that the relative will have to contact the hospital and the hospital will issue all relevant documents in order to release the body.
I asked if in the case of the deceased has no relative in Thailand, what could they do? She has no answer for me because she said that she never find such a case at their hospital.”
In short: there are a few options for arranging your cremation before your death. The family in the Netherlands can already sign a waiver, allowing your Thai partner to make the decisions in the event of death. You can also arrange things in a Thai or Dutch will.
Kerremans: “For us, a written waiver signed by the partner/children (at least the heirs) with a copy of the passport is sufficient. Based on such a statement, we inform the local authorities that the family will not accept the body and a local burial will be arranged at the expense of the country of death.
It's the family's responsibility to come to an agreement. If there is a disagreement, we do nothing until they come up with a solution themselves.”
By the way: a friendly Dutchman has inquired in the Netherlands what the transport of a mortal remains from Thailand to the Netherlands costs. The price is, depending on the company, between 5000 and 6000 euros, including taking care of all papers, the zinc box and transport from house to house.
I also want to be cremated here and my wife will inform my family when the time comes.
My wife can take me out of the hospital one day after death and then immediately or later have a cremation done, she can choose from me, even though I said no 3 days of party or longer, just a cremation and no more fuss from 1 day on. The Embassy may or may not be informed because I am married here so my wife does everything.
So married just let your wife arrange it. (Embassy does nothing)
If you are not married, the hospital where you end up will call the Embassy to make further arrangements.
You still want a cremation here, then 1 of your children must give permission or you have no children other than a family member (sister/brother) then with the statement after the Embassy to put a stamp on it then after the hospital to remove the deceased person from the hospital than after temple or anything else.
I say let your wife do it because she knows how to do it and tell her what you want for cremation.
Good luck arranging.
Pekasu
It's in my will: cremation in Thailand according to Thai customs. My wife/partner is the only one entitled to carry it out and if he dies at the same time as me, then my brother is authorized in NL and he will come and knowing him, he will not drag my coffin. By the way: it will be worst for me…..
Pfff. no more contact with your family in the Netherlands?? Probably those are the only people who really love you? Why did you end up in Thailand? I think said after a super relaxed holiday. Everything is possible, it seems, but what do you represent in Thailand as Falang? Without money? speaking the language etc. Nothing at all I'm afraid. Love is not for sale! It's just sticking your head in the sand! If you don't have children, no problem, but if you do have children (who probably miss you terribly and are very sad) you are responsible for them as long as you live. I should know…curious? ask me questions….
Apparently it is just like at the NL embassy at the BE embassy, if they can deflect something to third parties then they will do it. Even if it were a simple matter that the fellow countryman registered with them clearly and officially states the plan / would submit the request.
I do wonder if the will regarding what should happen to the body, an official document that we Belgians can or have introduced to the municipal council of the population, is not complied with if you die abroad …??
That must be stated in the national register, since we do receive a copy of that decision after death!
I responded earlier
I leave my remains to medical science
ten years ago this document was drawn up and signed by my family doctor here in chiangrai
the body is immediately picked up by the central hospital in Chiangmai after a telephone call
the embassy reports
a will is beneficial
people are very grateful for it
(the emigration service ditto!)
no expenses
I would like to get in touch with you. I have the same plans. It's good to double check everything
Kind thanks
Louis Goren
I have told my brother that I want to be cremated in Thailand and that I do not want my ashes returned to the Netherlands.
I just wonder how far that family relationship extends.
I'm the youngest of my generation, so there's always the possibility that I might live the longest.
How many generations does that family control actually continue?
If all the nieces and nephews have something to say about it, at some point it becomes a complete meeting.
I would prefer to be able to authorize someone in Thailand for my death.
You can arrange cremation in your will, but that will must be read in time. There is still a problem there.
Erik bkk, to get to the bank account one will have to show a will and preferably an official one..... Can they immediately read the paragraph about the cremation.
And as for other comments: make a will in the country of residence, then you are done with it and you do not saddle the surviving partner with worries about cremation and money. But that has been advised before in this blog.
Well I have already experienced a few dying cases of farangs here the last acquaintance of mine was not married had 1 daughter in Ned who had to be informed by the embassy first before the corpse was released for cremation was a weekend and a Buddha day in between!! ! so he had been lying in state in a refrigerator at the hospital for a week, 1000 baht every day.
The first was a German go to the cremation of him but he was still in the hospital his wife says go get him???? So mister was picked up with a pickup car box on the back of the pickup and there came mister took a good look at it, it was sewn up like a potato sack because an autopsy had been performed on it in the hospital The best thing was he knew that it would be the same day died and all his acquaintances had gone off to say I'm going to die today (strange but true) and sure enough sir was lying dead in his chair the very same day
Number 2 was a good friend of mine, I informed the fam myself. Was here in the morning at 7 o'clock. His wife called me and she said I have his phone. yes, his brother and daughter passed by with a phone number, I called them, the brother wanted to come in Sept. had booked ticket and all.
Well the further story the daughter had Account in ned. blocked from him and hired a lawyer (via embassy) for his bank balances here in Thailand. It has not yet been completed, but I will hear that. law.
Just to mention for the 2 Dutch people nothing was arranged, no will, nothing.
For the German, the money for Mrs. Widow is 700 euros every month until her death. Because Mr. had worked at the Audi factory all his life, so a good pension.
So for the ladies of the ned. are left empty-handed. One has already entered the temple out of poverty.
What if someone just wants to be buried on Roman Catholic holy ground?
Where can one go in Bangkok or Chonburi, what are the costs?
Can't find it anywhere, can anyone provide information about it?
Well, on the Sukumvit Road Pattaya there is a mosque and next to it a Catholic church. An acquaintance of mine had bought a piece of land there to bury under a tree in the shade.
I'd go there and ask for information if you're in the area. Good luck Richard
Oh yes Pietertje from the bottle museum is also buried in Chonburi. But I don't remember what the costs are.