Interests of Dutch companies and Dutch expats in Thailand
Not so long ago there was an announcement here on Thailandblog that the brand new ambassador of the Netherlands in Thailand, Mr. Kees Rade, would write a monthly blog. That statement gave me some thoughts. For what it's worth but hopefully the embassy will read along.
This posting is NOT about consular services such as issuing passports or certifying statements for marriages, DIGID codes, pension payments, birth certificates, etc. It is also NOT about helping stranded tourists or helping with calamities involving Dutch tourists or expats. It is also NOT about helping expats for matters that need to be arranged in the Netherlands, such as tax matters, state pension discounts, pension schemes, bank transfers, income statements, etc. There are institutions, politicians and law firms for this in the Netherlands (and in Thailand if necessary).
Other duties of the embassy
What I want to talk about are the 'other' tasks of the embassy. And let me jump straight to the conclusion. In my opinion, the focus of the embassy is far too much on the interests of the Dutch business community and hardly on the interests of current and future expats in Thailand. I'll explain that.
Dutch companies are helped in many ways with their activities in Thailand. That help varies from sector reports to help with starting a business, working with a Thai institution and breaking down all kinds of possible barriers. A few quotes from websites in that regard:
“The Dutch government actively promotes the interests of companies and organizations abroad. By positioning companies, knowledge institutions and sectors or by reducing trade barriers. You can also contact us for help with business problems or local procedures.”
“Thailand is Southeast Asia's second largest economy and, with its strategic location, is developing into a gateway to the region. In addition to an attractive production location, the country with its 68 million inhabitants offers an interesting consumer market. The Netherlands is one of Thailand's largest EU investors and EU trading partners with an excellent reputation. Important sectors for Dutch companies in Thailand are agri & food, horticulture, water (including the maritime industry), energy, life sciences & health, the creative industry, transport & logistics, tourism and high tech. More information about these sectors can be found in the overview of our priority sectors. “
The Dutch government, in this case the embassy, does not do this alone, but is supported by organizations such as the Dutch-Thai Chamber of Commerce (of which both Dutch and Thai companies are members) and an organization for SMEs. It is not only about exporting Dutch products, services and knowledge to Thailand, but also vice versa. But although these activities are undoubtedly important for Thai society, the earning aspect is not lost sight of. Nothing wrong with that in itself, because the continuity of these activities requires the necessary investments.
Nothing is actually done for current and future expats in Thailand that is comparable to the care for the Dutch business community. Yes, of course there are a number of Dutch associations, but they mainly have the character of conviviality and maintaining a “piece of Dutch culture abroad” with regular drinks, theater and coffee meetings, the Dutch dictation and Sinterklaas and Easter. Nothing wrong with that, but there is more, much more.
Why and what
The question is why the embassy should make an effort for Dutch people who have chosen to no longer live in their home country, in this case in Thailand. There are, in my opinion, a number of very good reasons for this:
- Just as Dutch companies active in Thailand are good for the Thai economy, the same goes for expats, and of course not just the Dutch. I cannot immediately back this up with figures, but if all expats (working and retired) spend their monthly income in this country, this involves very large amounts that could well exceed the economic effect of the Dutch business community. 5.000 expats who spend 40.000 Baht per month are good for an economic boost of 2,4 billion Baht per year, often also in poorer regions. And then I'm not even talking about the one-time impulse through the purchase of real estate (condo, house), whether or not through the Thai wife or a Thai friend;
- In addition to the amount, we also have to look at how the amounts are spent. I am actually quite sure that the money is partly spent on the basic necessities of life, but also on things that are of great importance for the future of the expat and/or his (step) children. Dozens, if not hundreds, of children now have the opportunity to attend secondary school or university;
- In addition to immediately disposable money, it is also about financial security for the future, which is also of great importance emotionally. The Thai women who are married to expats generally do not have to worry so much about their own future, that of their children but also that of their family;
- In my opinion, many expats have married a Thai woman who had little or no chance of finding a nice Thai man in the Thai marriage market. This means that the expats not only bring in money, but also provide a lot of happiness. Of course that is also mutual and therefore a win-win situation. And of course there are always exceptions, among Thai women but also among expats;
- The number of retired expats will increase in the coming decades. Thailand is one of the most favored countries for older expats worldwide. In addition, the phenomenon of the 'digital nomads' will certainly increase. There is therefore every reason to stand up for the interests of expats towards the government in the 'promised land', in the interest of the expat and certainly also in the interest of the local population.
What could the Dutch embassy (whether or not in consultation with embassies of other countries, for example the European countries, which supply expats) COULD do? Let me spout a few ideas and I'm sure you can add to my list:
- Providing standard Thai translations of all kinds of forms that expats have to fill in here for the Thai government to arrange affairs in the Netherlands;
- Requesting the Thai government to simplify all kinds of visa regulations and to ensure that the rules are applied in the same way throughout the country. For example, why demand that an expat on a retirement visa is no longer allowed to work in this country. Many an expat aged 65 is not in need of help or sick and can still mean a lot to his family, his immediate environment and to this country, also through volunteer work. In addition, a (digital) counter (and not a blog like this) where deviations from the application of the rules can be reported and where action is actually taken and reported back;
- Digitizing as much as possible procedures that expats in Thailand must comply with and minimizing actual face-to-face contact at all kinds of offices. If there is already face-to-face contact, then arrange this via an appointment system and therefore no more endless queues of people waiting;
- Questioning regulations that are outdated and/or are not in the interest of the expat AND of Thailand itself. An example: why demand that expats staying here on a marriage visa must have a certain amount in the bank that they are not allowed to touch for 3 months instead of a rule that the expat actually has a certain percentage of his salary / pension per month in Thailand spend?
- Informing all expats (in Dutch, English and Thai) that regulations of the Thai government (e.g. regarding visa requirements) have changed. That would save a lot of discussion on blogs and also prevent discussions, disappointment and frustration at all kinds of Thai offices.
Would many western expats come this way in a few years?
In almost all of Europe, the retirement age is being raised above 65.
People entitled to benefits often have the obligation to apply/be available to accept work, etc. At the age of 50 I was able to make use of a (good scheme for me) and a substantial piggy bank because we both worked more than 40 hours a week and our were able to buy a house in the good years and now (2012) can sell it with a considerable surplus value.
If I had to work until I was 67, I would most likely not take that step again, but rather take a long holiday in Thailand 2 or 3 times a year.
Just a few trends:
– the number of elderly people is growing in almost all countries of the world, partly because of the baby boom generation (born between 1945 and 1960) and because we all live longer on average due to better health care;
– the Internet makes it much easier to maintain frequent contact with those at home (children and grandchildren);
– the prices of airline tickets are only falling so that travel remains cheap
– the pensioners of the near future are on average richer than the current generation.
Item 4
I don't agree too short sighted. I have no salary, benefit or pension.
So the only choice left for me is money in the Thai bank.
We enjoy farming life on our land, but that is not enough for a visa.
That is also the case with me, I have to prove that I have an income of Thb 40.000 per month. Yes, but you don't need it every month. Must be honest that the house and car are debt-free and the holiday tickets to NL are paid from the NL account.
So we are now forced to save every month for a new car, which as far as I'm concerned will not be available for the first 10 years. If you live “normally” without extreme excesses, you can easily get by on that amount.
In my opinion an excellent piece by Chris de Boer. Two comments.
1. In my opinion, the most important thing is that the visa application procedure will be simplified. In addition, issue a retirement visa for a period of (minimum) 5 years instead of just one year. Abolition of the 3-month notification at Immigration: what is the point? and otherwise arrange that the report can be made digitally in a simple manner.
2. I think maintaining a bank balance has the function of providing a buffer in case of calamities, so that the Thai government does not have to pay for the expat's costs, but that buffer could be much lower than the required 800.000 baht. A quarter of that would suffice.
Chris de Boer, Your article has touched my heart.
Quote: "hopefully the embassy will read along."
Why not also send this article directly to the embassy?
The ambassador reads Thailandblog and the other employees at the embassy too.
I will be working in the Netherlands for 4 1/2 months a year, so I do have the money in the bank for the Thai wife visa, which will remain and I will live on the wages for the rest of the year.
My wife has a good job (salary) and we can make ends meet.
It is indeed annoying that a whole day is lost at immigration just to get a new annual visa, but I wonder what interest (and that is what the government is all about) has in the embassy to step into the breach for us here , they don't earn anything from this and that's all that matters in this world nowadays.
Just look at what will happen to our AOW in the future, always worked and if you decide to continue living somewhere else, you can also take part of it away. ( theft ).
Well, I have a lot of trouble with the written story. Nonsense here and there. I won't go into all the points because I don't want to take the time for this kind of nonsense. However, I can share my sublime experiences with the NL embassy in Bangkok with the readers, knowing for sure that many people can confirm my experiences. Of course, the consular help may be logical (including renewal of passport, declaration of residence, signing of various documents such as proof of life, etc.), but this help is of a very high quality.
And then this recent experience: My Dutch neighbor recently passed away and of course great panic. After informing the immediate family (mother, sister), the embassy was also informed, with the question: what now? Well, the answers to my questions were spot on and the help of the embassy was of unprecedented value to the (Thai) girlfriend, the immediate family and to us as neighbors. When you need the embassy, the embassy is there.
I have also had to deal with the Dutch embassies/consulates in other places of residence, such as Beijing and Kuala Lumpur and except for the regular meetings, as mentioned in the article and especially King's Day (nowadays) and possibly Sinterklaas (with a real old-fashioned Piet please) I absolutely do not need more. Just be there when you need the Embassy. Embassy, to me you are the best. I don't think many other countries can match the NL embassy.
I do not want to go into details for personal reasons, but my experiences with regard to consular support given by the Dutch embassy can also be called very good, in short, helpful, decisive, well-considered and, last but not least, extremely friendly!
I also have excellent experiences with the embassy regarding consular assistance and other services. But that's not what this post is about.
I think Chris, you have definitely hit the nail on the head with this posting.
I myself have been living here permanently for 14 years now and have invested a lot, say house tree animal and that over the years.
And when I look around me in my immediate surroundings, a municipality called Pasang not far from Chiangmai, which is unknown to many, many foreigners, including some Dutch people, live here permanently.
I would like to know the actual number of Dutch people who live here permanently throughout Thailand, and then throughout the year.
I suspect that the number may be more than many municipalities in the Netherlands have in terms of inhabitants.
And the number of Dutch people coming to live here is growing .
Last month at the local post office I got into a conversation with a foreigner , turned out to be a Dutchman as well , even lived here for 3 years .
Doesn't even live 6 km from me.
He also invested here, and when I visited his house I came across almost all of the Dutch furniture that had been transferred.
That is why I think, just like you, that the annual amount invested by all Dutch people who live here permanently could amount to many, many billions of baths.
In addition, a large group of hibernators, if only for 3 months, also put away a considerable amount in the Thai economy every year.
But we are not such an important group for the embassy and foreign affairs, they are apparently more interested in the business world, especially the large companies.
Jan Beute.
I also think that the Embassy does a good job, providing consular assistance where needed. Even in the event of the death of a friend or acquaintance, if you pass all this on properly by e-mail, such as the death certificate that you first obtain as well as a copy of your passport, the papers will be ready to collect when you get there and you will not lose any time. Have done that many times and always very good contact about it.
Apply for a visa in Thailand, have lived here for 14 years, never had a problem with it, almost always out within 1 hour. Of course return the next day to collect your passport. I also have no problem with the obligations that you have to meet such as income, etc., I even think it is fair. It is also understandable that you have to report after every 1 days, look how many criminals come in here and that is precisely why they do it, they want to have as much control as possible over those people in Thailand, that is good for the well-intentioned expats, actually protected yourself too. I even advocate making the same arrangement in the Netherlands, because that is precisely what is destroying our beautiful Netherlands, too beautiful rules, the door is open to everyone, waiting 90 weeks before your application is processed in the Netherlands, then Thailand is quite fast.
I do have some difficulty with the re-entry visa on a one-year visa, of course you can opt for multi if you apply for a new visa, but then the costs are considerably higher and even disadvantageous if you only leave Thailand 1 or 2 times. Something can really be done about that.
Yes digitization is something to say and also that the rules for visas are the same in Thailand. But like now, it is human work and the rules can be interpreted differently by the Thai, not good, but also look at what the expat submits for documents, and that is often not good either, and then you get a discussion and you are viewed differently for the visa application. Also check the immigration site beforehand, all the documents you need are there. if you have everything and if it is still not good, you can refer immigration to it.
Don't count on Mark Rutte and his cabinet to allocate extra money for this idea, Rutte has even said that this cabinet is there for every normal working Dutch person, expats who live here for 1 year no longer work, at least not in the Netherlands. This government has a policy to reach expats in their pockets as much as possible, even to the extent that expats have to return to their own country, look at the English who have already left, it is our turn too and some have already gone, it is becoming Even crazier, the previous cabinet stipulated that social security contributions would be reduced and the tax burden would increase to more than 18%, which will be 9% next year. They have been working on this for years, 6 or 8 years ago the tax burden was only 1,9% and the social security burden was much higher. But because migrants can receive an exemption from social security contributions, the tax burden is now increasing, especially now that it has been decided as of January 1, 1 to abolish the tax credit for people outside the EU. In about 2015 years you will therefore pay approximately 10% tax on your AOW income. So many AOW pensioners will return in the future who do not have much pension.
Need to have money in the bank even if you are married to a Thai, a lot of expats have no health insurance, should the Thai state pay for your health costs, in the Netherlands they are so crazy to do that, even asylum seekers have cheaper health costs insurance than the Dutch and no personal contribution or excess, we don't think that's good either. I even think that the Thai state should oblige every expat to have health insurance, they are also working on that and that can only be called good, perhaps the mandatory sum of money in the bank can be removed. The Netherlands does require travel insurance with covered health costs of 1.5 million baht for people who want a tourist visa, the Netherlands is right, but on the other hand discriminatory for the people who come to our country without a visa.
We ourselves have left our homeland, can return whenever we want. Due to our departure, we are also responsible for complying with the rules that apply in that country of residence. Of course there is bureaucracy everywhere, no different in the Netherlands, yes you have to look through that.
Enjoy life wherever it is.
Regards, Roel
Only expats or retirees are mentioned in Thai. However, it would also be nice to relax visas for the Schengen countries for Thai wives or a possibility of a validity of 5 years for an MEV.
Harry Kwan,
We applied for a tourist visa for my Thai girlfriend on October 25 and on October 31 we had a passport back by post from the Embassy with visas in it for a total of 3 years. Passport expiry date.
I would like to mention that my girlfriend has been to the Netherlands very often and always returned within the term.
You can stay in the Schengen countries for a maximum of 90 days on a tourist visa, so after those 90 days you must have left Europe.
Indeed Roel. Schengen visas can therefore be issued as MEV with a validity of up to 5 years. The Netherlands issues MEV as standard and gradually (and as necessary, etc.) each new visa will be valid longer. A bona fide Thai foreigner who frequently comes for short stays can therefore obtain a MEV of 5 years. Of course, one should never stay longer than 90 days in any 180-day period.
And the flexible visa for spouses is also simply EU law. As a (married) couple, your main residence is in an EU/EEA country other than your own and the Schengen visa is FREE and with hardly any requirements. No assessment for risk of settlement, no financial resources requirement, no accommodation required, no airline ticket reservation or insurance. Marriage papers + ID proofs from both + declaration from EU national that the Thai foreigner is coming along is sufficient.
This is also described in my Schengen file and annual Schengen analyses. What Harry asks about has therefore long been policy in the Netherlands, among others. Belgium, on the other hand, is considerably more reserved. See my 'Schengen visa under the microscope' analysis from last weekend for details.
Yes, I only write about expats and retirees because I ONLY wanted to bring up the discussion that – in my humble opinion – the embassy should do more to serve these categories of compatriots in relation to the Thai government. (90 days, long queues to get your visa and work permit, having statements written in English only and therefore NOT signed by the Thai authorities, burdening expats and retirees with unnecessary extra costs of standard authorized statements in Thai (and therefore forced to participate in forms of scams and/or corruption), standard procedures that are interpreted differently at every office (if you say something about that: the website is not up-to-date), low level of digitization.
All these things do not apply to wives of expats and retirees.
@Chris, I think your post is excellent in every way! Very clear, very creative, very concrete, very civilized and modest. I fully support your suggestions to the embassy: no less attention for the business community, but more attention for expats.
By the way: I have a bit of trouble with that term, because an expat usually actually has an employment relationship. I don't have one, so I'm just a retiree. I would actually like to be called "Immigrant" because I am deregistered from NL and live here in Thailand permanently, or stay, but unfortunately my retirement visa says "Non-Immigrant". The Thai government therefore emphasizes that we (Dutch and other retirees) must realize that we are NOT immigrating here! Not settling permanently, only allowed to stay temporarily if we can prove that we have at least 1650 Euros per month in income. You might be better off increasing that economic impulse to 15.000 expats and pensioners who invest 65.000 Baht per month! That is 11,7 billion Baht per year!
But I am certainly not an expat, just like most retirees here. An expat usually has, unlike the pensionado, the intention to return after a few years or to start a new assignment.
But this in no way detracts from your excellent post! Tribute.
I can only speak from my own experience.
Requested an appointment at the embassy in Bangkok by email. The question was answered taking into account the possibilities for a visit indicated by me. Kindly received and very well informed by the relevant official. Nothing but praise!!!!
Quote;
I cannot immediately back this up with figures, but if all expats (working and retired) spend their monthly income in this country, this involves very large amounts that could well exceed the economic effect of the Dutch business community.
Really??
So all NL companies based in Thailand no longer have 5.000 or 10,000 employees who spend a similar amount in Thailand???
Clearly not thought about it and then we forget for a moment the investments and services, goods, etc. that are bought and consumed in Thailand, which also involve workers with salaries..
The Dutch companies that are active in Thailand mainly have Thai employees and are often active in the production of goods (agricultural sector, textiles, means of transport). They do not earn an average of 40,000 Baht per month.
Expats also invest in addition to their monthly spending: car/motorbike/boat, house/condo, all kinds of luxury goods (gold, telephone, jewelry) and holidays in Thailand.
The profit made by Dutch companies will almost certainly not all remain in Thailand, but will be channeled back to the home country.
So, really thought about it.