The opaque financing of the Dutch embassy
At the beginning of June you were able to read the story about the daily routine at the Dutch embassy in Bangkok. I had asked a number of questions about this and although it had taken some time, a detailed report was produced. You can read again here: www.thailandblog.nl/background/consular-department-dutch-embassy-in-bangkok
The immediate reason for me to ask those questions was the whole hassle about the income statement. A new income statement had been drawn up by a clever policy officer in The Hague, which was withdrawn after fierce and justified protests from the Dutch in Thailand. Now we have a new income statement, which is called a visa support letter by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and for which the price was immediately increased drastically.
Annual report
I wanted to know how people arrived at that price increase, in fact, I actually wanted to know how all finances are arranged and accounted for at a Dutch diplomatic post. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs' budget didn't teach me much, and yet it didn't seem difficult to answer my questions. I assumed that each post would produce an annual financial report, including a report on the activities of the past year and a prognosis for the coming year. Just like I was used to in business, but I was completely wrong.
Questions
I therefore asked the following questions to the embassy:
- What amount does the embassy in Bangkok have on the Foreign Affairs budget?
- How does that compare to other embassies? You could even think of a ranking from the most expensive to the cheapest diplomatic mail.
- How is the available money "divided" over the embassy as a whole, the personnel costs and over the departments?
- So what does the consular department cost and what does it yield in terms of fees and other income?
- What have recent changes in, for example, the visa application process brought about?
Answer
Unfortunately, no one at the embassy was able to answer the questions and help was sought from the ministry. The questions turned out to be more difficult than I had thought, but now I have what could be called an answer. This is the response from the Ministry's Communications Department:
Answer. 1,2,3
The answers to these questions cannot easily be retrieved from our systems. This is because the budget of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, including the foreign representations, is structured differently in accordance with agreements with parliament. Costs for personnel, accommodation, travel, ICT, etc. are organization-wide and are therefore not registered per representation.
When determining the number of posts for an embassy, and the consular department therein, the workload is always taken into account, whereby the number of tourists in the country and the number of cases in which consular assistance is provided are also taken into account.
Answer. 4
The costs of the consular department and the revenues in Bangkok are not easy to determine for the reasons mentioned above. However, it is possible to indicate how many travel documents and visas were issued in 2016, namely 1.550 and 12.000 respectively. In addition, the embassy provided 3938 legalizations and issued 2717 consular statements. This makes the embassy in Bangkok one of the largest embassies in the world in the field of consular services. The proceeds from these consular services flow to the central resources.
Answer. 5
The assessment of visa applications has been regionalized and the process has been organized more efficiently. As a result, the continuity of the processing of visa applications worldwide can be better guaranteed. In addition, a worldwide 24/7 contact center has been set up and better customer information has become available. In the period 2013-2017, regionalization has resulted (worldwide) in savings of more than EUR 3,5 million on administrative costs.
Satisfied?
Not at all! The story above raises more questions than it answers and I intend to ask more questions. I expect that you too will not be satisfied with all the answers and invite you to make your comments and questions known in a response. I will then contact the Communications department on behalf of the blog readers of Thailandblog.nl and, if necessary, try to penetrate deeper into the organization of the ministry.
Finally
I do not want to withhold one conclusion of mine from you. The price increase, which now applies to the Visa Support Letter, is based on …..nothing! It even seems like harassment from an official in The Hague, who is thus handing out a punishment to those in Thailand who dared to protest against the previously published and withdrawn new income statement.
Shameful. These are the kind of answers that at least suggest, if not confirm, that the government is just a mess. In a normal company, try to get away with such silly answers. If I spoke to our Supervisory Board in this way, I think I would be out on the street fairly quickly.
There seems to me to be a total lack of accountability here.
It's nice that you're trying to clarify how things work, it's clear that it's not easy to extract facts from the available data.
Unfortunately not as guided as in business life, where there is a clear structure in the cost/benefit analysis. The fact that this is not crystal clear makes it very difficult to adjust policy.
It is also clear that the Embassy in Bangkok is very active, we do not know the details, but from the facts that are known, it is clear to me that they do a lot of work there, something that we all benefit from.
A question I would have is, are details known of how many Dutch people have settled permanently in Thailand, how many of them have returned to the Netherlands. I am curious what is true when people on Thailandblog claim that there is some sort of exodus going on; those claims are only based on what one hears or sees or thinks about in the personal situation or circle that people have around them.
Good luck with your search, I'm curious.
Nico B
@Nico, I am convinced that the people who work at the Dutch embassy in Bangkok are honest and hard-working civil servants. As far as I'm concerned, there's no doubt about that.
The other question about Dutch people who live here in Thailand and who may have returned to the Netherlands is impossible to get an answer. There is no registration obligation, every Dutch person can go wherever he wants. The only Thai authority that could shed light on this is Immigration. But it's a handsome guy, who gets permission to dive into their computer files and even then, is that data reliable?
@Gringo, I also have no doubts about the integrity of the policy implementers who work in Bangkok and, as I said, they finish a lot there.
Already suspected that the number of incoming and outgoing Dutch people will not be traceable, but you certainly understand my curiosity about the facts.
I'm not going to spend my time on the exercise at Immigration, that will be digging a hole, closing it, digging it out again...
Greeting.
Nico B
I've been following this blog for a while. I often read things here about the embassy in a very positive tone. And now this! This has nothing to do with embassy employees with integrity or not. With the will to answer your questions, so that this information can be posted on the blog. Apparently there isn't. Or The Hague does not give permission. They are civil servants. They often suffer from cold feet.
Every embassy has a budget. The height is of course determined in The Hague. Depending on the occupation, this falls under the responsibility of the second man/woman. Usually, the chancellor is responsible for keeping the “household book”.
Fixed costs are fixed costs, such as property/rent, embassy/residence, staff. The chancellor or other person in charge may deviate from the uniform regulations by invoking local circumstances. Think of housing costs, costs of education for children, commuting to and from work. The room for maneuver is then included in the allowance system.
The accounts are audited annually in The Hague. Also comes regularly from Ned. inspection to check the books. Of course there is a cost per post. Suppose you want to close a post. Is a political consideration. But you also look at the financial side. Or you want to save more. This is not possible without insight into the costs.
The parliament must also be able to monitor, the parliamentary committee for foreign affairs. Have you contacted them? Certainly the foreign specialists of the major parties know where Abraham gets his inspiration. Incidentally, the costs per item cannot be found in the general foreign affairs budget.
It is remarkable that people at the embassy are more open about the effect of cuts in services, work pressure and so on. Quite a contrast to this. They let you dangle. No sense in later cutting comments, also this blog “costs the taxpayer xx million per year, but they do nothing for you”. I think they should get used to it.
Hi Gringo,
I think you have asked too much, a government that includes the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is not transparent, not open and will never answer you. I personally responded to this at the embassy regarding the absurd price for a new passport, 77 euros more than in the Netherlands and also why an English-speaking Thai who did not understand everything I asked. I was then answered neatly in Dutch by a man who had called them in, they had to cover costs as much as possible. Also a very small receipt that I received as proof of payment, yes for what, I asked for the original invoice, which the embassy did not provide. A government is also obliged to do that, they have also made that clear. When applying for a visa for Rash, they did have an original printed invoice as proof of payment and what was paid for. That's already a lot of progress.
I have been living in Thailand for a long time, but the embassy has become many times worse than before. As far as I'm concerned, the embassy here in Thailand should close its doors. They are not there for the Dutch, but still want to earn as much money as possible from the Dutch, that is their policy and the policy of the government. Of course you can't blame it on the embassy staff, they also do what they are told and they do their best as I hope.
They also have to take the entire visa application process back to themselves, as it is now with an external office in Bangkok, only encourages corruption, examples are enough. The Dutch government should be ashamed of themselves for doing this. And then I'm not talking about the many rejections of visas, but making it mandatory to take out travel insurance in advance before applying. Travel insurance with health insurance is very good, but only let them return this when a visa is granted and when a visa is rejected, also the costs are refunded because rejection is simply standardized and often unfounded.
Dear Roel, I do not agree with you that the embassy has become much worse. The handling of most cases is going reasonably well. Applying for a visa is a problem and could be organized a bit better. However, the problem is also for them that they suffer from Rutte's austerity rage. That an outside office encourages corruption is simply not true. That office is no more than a conduit and certainly nothing at all. The decision is still taken by the embassy. I understand that you were disappointed with the way the visa applications went. I was also when I brought a relative of 9 years, but we have to stick to the facts. The excitement around the income statement is also understandable, but there is always the option to park 800.000 baht in an account and then you have nothing to do with the embassy except for a new passport once every 10 years.
Rob, I totally agree with you. Last year I went back to the Netherlands, and my wife first traveled with me for a short stay of 3 months. The application took less than 3 weeks. The day after she returned to Thailand, I submitted my application to the IND to have her come to the Netherlands permanently. After 7 weeks she was expected at the embassy in Bangkok, where she was politely received and the sticker in her passport. Excellent service. Nothing to complain about.
Incidentally, I pay 65 euros for a new passport in Rdm. If Roel has paid 77 euros for it in Bkk, it is not too bad, despite the receipt.
Ruud, you misread 77 as the maximum price last year in the Netherlands
The maximum price that municipalities can charge was 51.90, in 2016 I just took my receipt from the embassy, a total of 4970 bath, amounted to 129 euros, which was also stated as both euros and thai bath
If you have now paid 65 euros in the Netherlands, that is again an increase of more than 20% compared to 2016.
Sorry Roel, read and responded too quickly! But what does it matter? The passport is now valid for 10 years. In 2027 you may cost EUR 200. But what do you want? Unless you occasionally visit the Netherlands, you could purchase a cheaper copy via Schiphol in due course. But to worry so much about it? Enjoy Thailand and stay healthy!
Doesn't matter what extra costs either, but what they do is collect as much as possible and go to the Netherlands in 1 go to make new passports, which means that 1 gets his passport back within 10 days while the other has to wait 4 weeks and that fits not at the extra cost. Pay 50 euros more and return within 4 days, they said that to me later, but it is not mentioned anywhere, I would have liked to have talked about it because my visa expired in Thailand in the meantime and I had to wait more than 4 weeks. So that extra cost has now been scooped up by immigration.
If they do collect all passports first and send them per 40 pieces, the additional cost does not have to be that high, understand me correctly, there are extra costs now, but this is so absurd that they have arranged it, the work remains the same.
Never had any problems, everything was always done neatly and fairly quickly. Stick to the fact that if all documents, requirements are shown and have been properly completed and all additional conditions / requirements have been met (in my case when a short stay) it is a piece of cake, if not, it is therefore logical for the applicant that it will be rejected.
Also a comrade of mine in the Netherlands who was able to have his girlfriend come over for an MVV, quickly and well arranged.
Overall excellent service there!
Dear Rob,
Go and have your girlfriend apply for a visa at VFS Global, then you will find out and you will be amazed. But then PLEASE let me know your findings via this blog. I know enough but I would also like to hear from you.
You are right that Rutte cuts everything and that embassies have to follow the guidelines, does not change that and you also confirm that it has become less at the embassy, not implying that they are not doing their best, purely because of BZ.
I don't need an income statement, I've been doing it for years with 800k in the bank, I'll take my passport at Schiphol next time. But you can expect that a number of Dutch people will have problems because they cannot actually meet the income requirement and immigration will demand that document. This was also the case with a new passport that you had to purchase a statement from the embassy that the passport was genuine and issued there. Why do I have to prove that my passport is real, I only have it on loan from the Dutch state as long as I live (I hope) Immigration has demanded that from many, some back to Bangkok and some some money in the passport, does it have to be that way because giving them a tiny receipt that is not accepted by immigration.
Also last year 1st week of September there, looked on the site for opening hours on Sunday and then went on Thursday. Embassy closed, as the porter stated, they had only put it on the site on Monday afternoon that it was closed. Were together 7 Dutch people early in the morning who did not know either.
Visa issuance is not the issue of the embassy in Bangkok, it is done externally in Kuala Lumpur as they themselves indicate. They have no influence on that either.
As already indicated, staff do their best to ensure that everything runs as smoothly as possible, but it is the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that creates obstacles and actually treats the Dutch who have emigrated like old dirt.
If someone does not actually meet the income requirement and cannot prove 800000 baht in the bank, then it is logical and not wrong that one of the two conditions is demanded at the embassy.
1. The price difference between a passprort in the Netherlands and getting it abroad is 64,31 Euro (129,07 -64,76). See:https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/paspoort-en-identiteitskaart/vraag-en-antwoord/wat-zijn-de-kosten-van-paspoorten-en-identiteitskaarten
2. I do not believe that the services provided by the embassy have diminished. There is also not so much income from the Dutch, but there have been cuts in government expenditure, including embassies. Since the majority of the expats in Thailand votes VVD or PVV, people have agreed with this austerity policy, or less government, more business. complaining is crying crocodile tears.
3. Visas could, in my opinion, be arranged by a European embassy. After all, it is the same Schengen visa.
4. Visas are also rejected at many other embassies (eg those of the USA) and the costs are not refunded. This in itself is remarkable.
5. Agree that one should be more open about the rejection reasons. Don't believe anything that just happens. Foreigners are scanned more sharply and their antecedents are checked and that is also one of the 'acquisitions' of a cabinet with VVD and PvdA for which most expats voted.
Last year 51.90, maximum rate set by the government that municipalities MAY ask
As far as Schengen visas are concerned, I can go a long way with Chris, I have also written several times that, for example, a joint central processing of the Schengen member states that are active in Thailand would save on costs, time and transfers if the applicant applies to the wrong member state. knocks, etc. But this kind of cooperation does not really get off the ground, despite the EU, with the member states/embassies it is often 'me and my interests first, transfer as little sovereignty as possible to the EU/neighboring countries, everything in our own hands' .
That remote office (VFS) is just a paper pusher that has 0,0 to decide. This is what Dutch officials do in Kuala Lumpur (and from 2019 in The Hague). VFS is still completely optional under the current rules, you can ignore it and only deal with the embassy if you find it more comfortable. That kind of 'direct access' also saves you 1000THB VFS service fee.
In the upcoming rules, where concept after concept has been drawn up since 2014, the right to direct access will no longer apply. This was still stated in an earlier draft and the EU Commission also wanted to drop the travel insurance requirement. Under pressure from various Member States, direct access has been abolished, but the insurance obligation has remained. Some Member States also wanted to increase the fees because they were not cost-covering, but they could not substantiate this and there was no majority in favor.
The risk of having to show travel insurance if a visa has been granted is that people forget to arrange this and therefore A) cannot collect the passport until this has been proven B) sending it by post is not possible because the embassy will want to see that you are insured before you get your passport back, not useful if you live far outside BKK. Option C, telling the foreigner to arrange insurance after delivery, also involves risks. The border guard must then pay extra attention to this and can then send people back who have forgotten this at the border. Checkout! There are pros and cons for the various scenarios. The current state of affairs is: apply for insurance, if rejected the insurer MUST pay you back minus administration costs. An insurer that does not do this is not considered acceptable insurance by the EU for the Schengen visa. Embassies have a list of reliable (local) insurers available.
In case of rejection: always object and immediately request the file. Preferably with a lawyer or if you go after it yourself, a short letter that boils down to “I object to the refusal, I would like to have access to the visa file and request that you send the file to me. A substantiated explanation of my objection as to why this rejection is unjustified will follow as soon as possible.'
You can e-mail feedback about improving visa matters to EU Home Affairs:
JUST-CITIZENSHIP {at} ec.europa.eu
More about visa statistics:
https://www.thailandblog.nl/visum-kort-verblijf/afgifte-schengenvisums-thailand-loep-2016/
More about the new Schengen rules that the member states in Brussels are working on:
https://www.thailandblog.nl/achtergrond/nieuwe-schengen-regels-mogelijk-niet-zo-flexibel-als-eerder-aangekondigd/
I think that the embassy is primarily there to represent the interests of the Dutch business community. Tourists with problems are seen as an annoying side job. I believe it was Sjon Hauser who once wrote that he was treated like dirt when he came up with a personal problem, but when he later made an appearance with a business group he was treated with all due respect. I think that business interests have priority applies to all embassies everywhere.
We can't make it more fun, but we can make it easier. This is or was the slogan of the Dutch government.
Why they have to make everything more and more difficult, more expensive and more inaccessible is still a mystery to me.
Even with these kinds of non-answers, they only make it harder for themselves. Anyone can imagine that if you give vague, unsatisfactory answers, you will get follow-up questions.
It doesn't seem very difficult to me to just release the finances of an embassy, but yes, Dutch robbery, eh. There you will first have to submit an official WOB request to possibly find out the real figures, if you are lucky, and they do not paint all important information black.
Save 3,5 million and still raise the price? The money therefore does not flow back to the customer.
Then the savings would not have been necessary in my opinion.
For people who have a Dutch passport and occasionally travel via Schiphol, they can apply for their passport at the airport at a lower cost than the embassy and pick it up a few working days later. You must be deregistered from the population register. The counter is currently open 7 days a week. An appointment must be made in advance.
Moderator: The article is about finances, please comment on that.
It seems that the price for an income statement does not apply to every Ned. embassy are the same. In some countries it costs nothing.
How did you get that knowledge, Eric?
In my opinion, Thailand is the only country in the world where Dutch people in some cases need a visa support letter.
Moderator: off topic
If 'the process' is set up more efficiently, you can also read that as more efficient. And that could actually reduce costs…
Dear Gringo
You're doing well. I am also very curious about how they will explain their business operations. The answers they give now indeed ask for more. It is also very sloppy that a government cannot come up with more. you should try yourself as a businessman think that you have accountants and tax authorities on the floor with these kinds of answers every day. Basically, they just don't know. I wonder how they will explain this. I have been coming to Thailand for 30 years and I think that a lot has indeed improved. Yes, sometimes I get annoyed by a new rule, but in general I think they do very well in Bangkok and they really try to help you, which was really much worse before.
Regarding the income statement, yes, go back to the old way. Or have there really been questions from the Immigration Service of Thailand? Then please provide proof of this.
good luck with your research i will follow it.