Cash and Mary?
The Thai dowry Sinsot has been discussed a few times on this blog with quite a few reactions, which more or less showed that Farang, including the Dutch, have difficulty with this Thai tradition.
'Sin sot' is once again a hot topic in the Thai media as a top official tries to explain his unusual wealth with this.
Andrew Briggs writes a nice story about it in the Bangkok Post, which I (sometimes a bit loosely) translated. Also note the title of the article, a nice play on words from Cash and Carry.
“It must have been about 18 years ago that I was in a bar in Bang Na with my Thai friend Vichien. He was rather gloomy and we were working on our second bottle of Hong Tong whisky. I was still young myself and I could handle two bottles of that Hong Tong. But that has been, nowadays only used in Hong Tong as copper polish and rat poison, but that aside!
Poor Vichien. The poor, lovesick young Thai man shook his head. “I don't know what to do with Rojana,” he said. "We've been together for three years."
After a few more sips from his glass filled with whiskey and ice cubes, the high word came out: "And she's two months pregnant."
I poured back my glass and said, "I know this may sound drastic, Vichien, but...why the hell don't you just marry her?"
That's exactly what Vichien was waiting for. "You're right! Come on, let's go.” He called out to the underage creature who had been supplying our drinks all evening with a straight face: “Nong! Checkbin!”
"Where are we going?" I asked.
"We go to Rojana's mother and then you have to ask her permission that I can marry Rojana, that's how we do it here."
And so I am introduced to this very Thai custom of using an "elder," or phuyai, to ask parents for their daughter's hand on behalf of a groom-to-be.
"Don't forget to ask about the bride price," said Vichien when we approached the parental home.
Bride price? This is a direct translation of the Thai word and then it sounds a lot colder and more clinical than the Thai word "sinsot"
Vichien explained that he was obliged to come up with money if he wanted to marry Rojana. "You buy her?" I asked incredulously. "No," he replied. "I offer money for her."
"Isn't that the same thing?" "No," he said.
He looked out the window and shook his head. I knew what that meant: "That stupid Farang just doesn't get it."
"Okay, what exactly is that sinsot?" I asked. "Money and maybe some gold," Vichien said.
“So, and… how much?”
"I don't know... 50.000 baht, maybe 100.000 baht."
"You don't have 50.000 baht at all!", and when he stared at me open-mouthed, I added: "You're not asking me, are you?!"
"I'm just borrowing it!"
"No!"
“I can give it back to you right after the wedding ceremony!”
"Impossible. How?"
“We hand over the money during the ceremony for everyone to see. Immediately afterwards, Rojana's mother will return the money to us.”
"So it's all just for show?"
Ummm… not really. Not quite. Well, in a sense yes.”
You must have been in for several years Thailand have spent to understand this logic of a Thai.
Nearly 20 years have passed since that fateful evening when I knocked on the door and Rojana's mother was confronted by a tipsy foreigner, who asked for Rojana's hand in lousy Thai. By the way, she had fled to her bedroom when she saw us coming.
Rojana's mother immediately agreed and said, “Vichien has to give what she can afford, when I brought up the question of the price tag – oh, sorry, I mean the sinsot.
I remember the whole thing vividly, probably because it went against all the customs and traditions of marriage in my native country. Now I know that wedding traditions are different all over the world. In many countries, the bride's parents pay a dowry, happy that they have been able to match their daughter with a good man.
I had so many questions for Rojana's mother: “Um, do you really give money back after the show?” "Whatever you do, don't ask her," Vichien hissed when we were still at the front door.
Could I get a discount if I can guarantee that Vichien would remain monogamous for at least five years and not have a “mia noi”? Bargaining is quite acceptable in Thailand, but as a bumbling Farang, how am I supposed to know how far I can go?
Over the years I've gotten to know the role of the sinsot better and I don't say weird things about it anymore. Like so many things in this country, it's just a show.
Just watch a Thai star or a hi-so couple get married. The only thing you can be sure of (apart from a divorce within three years!) is that a mountain of money and gold will be piled up for the happy couple.
“Look at us – we are young and rich!” Those sinsots can sometimes run into the tens of millions of Baht.
All this came back to me with the news from the permanent secretary of the Ministry of Transport, news that even pushed the news about the floods off the front pages. This senior official is called Supoj Saplom; his surname can, ironically, be translated as "material possessions surround me".
His house was broken into while he was attending his daughter's wedding, but wait a minute, you don't have to feel sorry for him just yet.
The thieves say they found hundreds of millions of baht in cash in his house, but Mr Supoj denies that. The police suspect that at least 100 million baht was stolen.
One hundred million baht? I get nervous when I leave my house and remember on the way that I left a 1000 Baht note on my bedside table. So here we have a civil servant who has filled countless plastic bags with 1000 Baht notes and has stored them scattered around his home. He can be careful when he puts out the real garbage bag.
Fortunately, Supoj had a plausible excuse for having the equivalent of a small African country's reserves of cash in his house. His daughter was getting married, remember? That money was the sinsot, he said. Why else, he asked, would he keep such a large amount of cash in his Lat Phrao palace?
In Rojana's house, on the day of Vichien's wedding, not much money was flying around.
Vince was right. The presentation of the sinsot was a show with many "oohs" and "aahs". Rojana's mother put the money in a plastic bag and jokingly ran up the stairs with it. When all the guests had left, the money was returned to the bride and groom as a wedding present from the parents.
This often happens, but not always. Occasionally, parents decide to keep the money and then store it somewhere in the house so that it can be stolen by thieves.
“Gingers” would say Vichien.
– Reposted article –
Great fun story.
What is also nice to know is that if Thai women marry for a 2nd time, the sinsot is no longer necessary. But many Thai families prefer not to do that when the farang asks for the daughter's hand in marriage.
My wife told the talk of the town yesterday.
A wealthy entrepreneur of about 60 will soon marry for the 6th time, this time with an actress. The sinsod will be 100 million thai baht and I think the family can keep it because the man really has more than enough pecunia.
The actress is 28 and known from TV. She has a very nice figure by the way.
In higher circles, a sinsod can also be a large house or a set of car keys from an expensive German brand. If the groom can afford it, the family can keep it, if not, it will be returned.
By the way, a wedding party in a 4-5 star hotel for 4-500 people also costs quite a bit. I have already experienced several. Fortunately, the menu is becoming more and more free these days and no longer the 10-course Chinese food. Last time there was plenty of European food. There was a cook cutting fresh roast beef, one ham on the bone, one pad thai, and at least 20 other cooks preparing something. In addition, there were huge buffets in the hall with the tastiest snacks and small snacks. There was a team of 8 pro photographers around and we all had to be photographed many times.
For the richer families it is very important to celebrate a wedding in this way. The problem is that these hotels are located around Sukhumvit and there are huge traffic jams to get there. Some guests were more than an hour late due to traffic jams.
I read somewhere yesterday that a Thai wedding couple has broken the world record for the number of bridesmaids. There were almost 100 of them.
Nice culture here in Thailand, you are amazed every day…
I myself also experienced a “Sinsot story” about 6 months ago (it was not discussed anywhere else)
My girlfriend comes from a small village near Buriram, and a friend/girl next door also comes from the same village, who works as a headliner in a large nightclub on Walking Street, Pattaya (average 1,5 million baht turnover per night)
With a salary for her of 20.000 baht per month, which is a lot for a nightclub employee, (on average 6-7000 baht per month) But as a 17-year-old (sorry, 18 years old according to German standards) she had clearly been at the forefront of sharing beauty through Budda, and she was provided with a nice, firm bosom, which explained a higher salary... Logical for Taïse concepts...
I personally thought it was strange that with such a salary, she still wanted to borrow money from my girlfriend on a regular basis, but then again, the tough financial methods are unfathomable, and my warnings of “never lend money to friends”?! “You won't see that again”!? was kindly waved away. Later, when I visited her village, I started to understand the money lending business a little better, and also Tough village communities...
It was added that she did not go with customers, there was a steady friend.
Saw that friend regularly at daytime parties, and also got to know her 'boyfriend', a nice Burgundian in his 40s. Half-Thai, spoke fluent Thai, had been working and living in Thailand for years, and also received his telephone number every time. , in case I ever get into trouble.
In the run-up to the wedding, my girlfriend became more and more nervous, not worried about how the day would go, but whether the “Sinsot” would go well.?
On the memorable day itself, all the villagers were constantly looking forward to carrying around the bowl with 2,5 million baht in mainly 500 bills. (that 'looked' more)
A Toyota land cruiser was also part of it, but did not fit the scale, and stood with a bow around it, in front of the parental home.
I did not see whether the car keys were in the shell.
The monks, guards, police, the music and taxi drivers, were only interested in drinking and eating.
The groom's mother, also Thai, thought it was too hot to attend, and the father was abroad?!
To my question “how long do you think they will stay together”? the short answer was “one year”
Now, six months later, the newlyweds are no longer "flea-catching". Both homes of her (divorced) parents have been completely renovated and expanded with separate toilets, shower rooms, bedrooms and air conditioning. There have been 2 collisions, which had to be paid in cash. (collisions in her village or surrounding areas)
The beautiful Thai lady is working in the night club again! ! (To make some extra money, and keep busy)
Have any problems been reported with the mother-in-law yet? Don't want it to work out that way with a baby...! which was explained by my girlfriend with “she's not crazy” (or not He, I thought) And I understood (suspiciously) that perhaps another “Sinsot” was possible!
Furthermore, her 2 younger sisters, also pictures to see, are already being prepared for the bigger work in Pattaya. (behind the back of my girlfriend, 1 was already offered, but kindly declined)
In conversations with my girlfriend about marriage and “Sinsot” (2,5 million was a lot) I made it clear to her that in 'my' country this is 'not' common, and in the case of a mixed marriage she also has to adapt to the customs and culture of my country….. And with a wink “you're used and second hand”
Which to my surprise could also be an item in the negotiations with her parents, she said without batting an eyelid.
Well, a vague friend of my Thai girlfriend lives with her family on these dowries!! She marries a foreigner, and after a few months the divorce is a fact again, and the next victim has usually already been brought in…. big business…..and the “sinsod” is never left behind and never given back. But yes, exceptions confirm the rule.
When I married my wife in Isan 12,5 years ago, we also decided to display the sinsot on a nice scale. However, my parents-in-law insisted on returning it after our wedding day. Since I had already heard so many stories about opportunistic in-laws, we decided that same week to offer father-in-law and father-in-law a holiday in Europe. Now 12,5 years later I still have a wonderful in-laws (and wife!) who have never asked for a dime. So it is possible!
I immediately made my position clear regarding paying for a Sinsot and certainly had no intention of paying or bidding (depending on how you look at it) for or on my wife.
My sister-in-law, who organized the ceremony, didn't have a problem with that.
She did ask to donate a Sinsot during the ceremony because it is part of it, but promised to give me the amount back afterwards. Preferably in Euro, she added, because it looks nicer.
So I did that. The money was neatly spread out in a gold-colored bowl and presented by me to my father-in-law. Afterwards my sister-in-law took the bowl and the money back from him and wrapped the money in some kind of silk gauze and disappeared with it.
For a moment I was worried when the money disappeared from my sight, but that was unjustified.
After the ceremony she returned the full amount to me as promised.
So in theory I paid a Sinsot but in practice got everything back.
I am open to other customs, but no matter how much I love my girlfriend, I will never, ever cooperate in establishing a dowry. future marriage because in my experience, strictly speaking, buying a woman feels like she is some kind of commodity.
With respect and keep me in the good because everyone should of course just do what they want and soon hear say, yes, but that is simply the culture and often it is for appearances or for show and afterwards all or part of it is returned, that will all be true, but even then it remains unchanged in my point of view and not otherwise.
Although she comes from a humble background so that the family could use some extra baht, she understands that I come from a different culture and accepted my argument wholeheartedly without offering any resistance or disappointment.
Not that I made it known to her like that, but I even dare to say with certainty that if she did, I would have wanted to end the relationship in the long run.
So we are not married - not so much just because of my point of view - because we just don't think it necessary to do it, but we do feel married all these years, we are happy and we like it that way.
That's how it can be.
Yes, it is possible, actually everything is possible in Thailand if you just keep smiling. Still, I don't quite understand what your problem is if you are sure you will get the sinsod back. It is part of the Thai culture and before marriage you are not allowed to sleep together…..at least if the lady and family do not want to lose face.
Sinsod also has the function that you buy off the child's care obligation towards the parents. So for the parents it is income, but also a bit of status to the other villagers / relatives, so my daughter was worth money because we raised her well..
Don't forget that if you have a Thai son, he will also get married one day and then you will have to pay. If you have a daughter, you receive and the amount depends on the status and looks of the daughter.
It is the way it is, just don't wish to participate in that sinsod charade because it completely goes against my principles. It can be that simple.
Is like buying a slave girl. No matter how you look at it, it is like buying from people, because it is prohibited by the UDHR and ECHR.
Everyone has to adapt. And for show… I live for myself and not for the eyes of others.
@ Sir Charles I agree with you and it will get me down but I don't care. I married my Thai wife who was born in Bangkok in November 2011. Never, never was a dowry discussed, neither by my current wife nor by her family. I had already gone through two divorces and was not financially strong. I made that clear to her as well. The fact that we help her father with a small amount is not a problem for me, but I have never paid a dowry, not even to my former Vietnamese ex. Fortunately never had any problems and our relationship is good and everything is discussed. She works herself and I hope our relationship may last for eternity. I also respect other cultures, but a dowry does not have to be mandatory in my opinion. Isn't it common in our culture, and shouldn't Dutch culture also count in such cases? Surely a compromise can be made? Certain feelings, perhaps unjustified, still come to the fore in me at such a dowry.
SirCharles,
Personally, I have a bit of a bitter feeling when reading your text, but maybe that's just me and I misunderstand your text.
Usually I agree with your comments, but now I don't really know what to think of your comment.
I'm even a little disappointed but hey, everyone is free to think what they want of course and is entitled to their own point of view.
You write how happy you are, (which I sincerely wish you) but I have the feeling that the “we” and “our” happiness is mainly there when your views are met.
As soon as the Thai positions are introduced, happiness is apparently incidental and of no value anymore. Even more, you would even immediately break off the relationship.
To end a relationship because of a stance on the Sinsot seems to me that the "we're a happy family" feeling doesn't run very deep.
What certainly surprised me is the part where you write that they understand that you come from a different culture and that they wholeheartedly and without resistance or disappointment accept your argument about a Sinsot.
Hello, have I been away from the world for a while or have you moved to another Thailand?
We are therefore not married, you write.
Is it because you do not consider it necessary or do the views on the Sinsot have something to do with this?
Indeed it can be….
Oh dear Ronny, the tomyam soup doesn't always have to be eaten so hot, Thailand is also steadily changing in habits and customs.
Just deal with each other and take care of each other as befits a relationship in ups and downs, a marriage is not necessary for that.
Life can be so wonderfully simple. 🙂
Indeed, and of course it is not the case that happiness depends on whether or not you are married.
Feeling each other, mutual respect and support, especially in adversity, will determine how a relationship develops. A marriage or the amount of a sinsod is of secondary or even no importance.
Indeed, we too often forget that life can be wonderfully simple.
@Ronny,
To end a relationship for sinsod's point of view, you dare to say that the feeling is not deep.??
I think more than that the person in question gets the feeling of buying his wife / girlfriend and you know that was abolished years ago.
And what is your opinion that the fathers-in-law are not satisfied with the amount offered for the “merchandise” and therefore just as easily cancel the marriage?
Sometimes also with 2-3 children already included in the sale?
LOUISE
Maybe read all the comments….
Maybe your questions have been answered
@ Ronnie,
The way you responded to the comments from “Sir” Charles, I couldn't have said it better.
Your views have blown my mind.
And I would advise “Sir” Charles to try to revise what I consider to be a very selfish stance on the sinsod, showing a little more respect for his wife's views and the culture from which she comes.
I'm sure she doesn't feel happy about it, but as befits a decent Thai woman, she will never comment on it.
Leo Bosch.
.
First of all, there are no standard rules regarding sinsod and dear Leo Bosch, don't worry about my girlfriend, you don't know her and she is articulate enough because she does express herself about it to her family and in the village. That is also Thailand.
Indeed, as befits a decent woman, she has made this known honestly and without detours to her family and fellow villagers, which is certainly respected. This is also possible in Thailand.
We are happy in our way and oh well for happiness and there are no standard rules.
It can be that simple, even in Thailand.
I almost want to hang up one of those old-fashioned tiles that say 'no one gets a program from the concert of life'. 🙂
Incidentally, may I also point out that it is almost 2013, also in Thailand.
Indeed Charles, if I read it that way, you and your wife have reached an agreement in this area, among other things. But apparently some here see refraining from sinsod as selfish by definition (farang pushes through his will without respect for Thai culture). If you were to refuse while your partner would take it very seriously and you were not prepared to make any compromise, then things would be different (you push through your own will regardless of the partner's feelings), but this is clearly not the case if I read your text like this.
Enjoy life I would say, and be happy together. 😀
@LEO,
A marriage consists of 2 people, both with their own opinion, origin. believe.
These should come together and not 1 person to impose his / her laws on the other like you do.
LOUISE
Well, my girlfriend is gradually starting to talk about Sinsot too.
She no longer has a mother and only a father. So I don't have to be so afraid of a mother-in-law, but she is negotiating part of her sinsot herself. So if you think that only your future parents-in-law will decide on that, think again…. And because she wants to be good to her father and partly because it's a status item for her. I have been to her village a number of times and the whole village is talking about her going with a farang and she wants to look good.
So it is really not the case that it only depends on the beauty and age of the lady, also who the opponent is. If a higher sinsot amount is paid, it means a better other half and they want to show that. A higher sinsot of a farang is therefore not greed in all cases, but also often for show.
I happened to speak to a cousin of hers 2 days ago who is soon to marry an Englishman and the gossip about the Sinsot is also rampant there. But she already knew exactly how old I was, what kind of work I do and that it is a good job by European standards (of course checked with her future from the UK), so even as a farang you notice that there is also the necessary gossip.
Well, what can you say, this is Thailand. There is no standard way of doing it it's different every time 🙂
I've known Thai women who turned it into an industry. Were reasonably comfortable with English and mediated. Even Thai couples came for a consultation to tie a farang.
Attended a wedding a few years ago, organized by the bride's so-called schoolteacher, gives status and confidence, but lived on the percentages of sinsod. Looks like a beautiful wedding, band, 400 people, German man in a nice suit, she in white and everything else.
That was also the last night I ever saw him. A year later, a new house was built next to the bride's for her son. Yes, you can think what you want. My experience is that some Dutch people are not averse to that kind of mediation, led by their Thai lover, about 40 percent of the dowry, or also experienced 20, 000 thb fixed rate. Another side of the story.
I married a girl from Isaan 37 years ago. Only for the law. I'm not a Budhist so I don't participate in that Budha thing. When my wife talked about sinsod my answer was; I marry you and not your family. So no sinsod, I brought her directly to Belgium. We have been living in Thailand for 12 years now and I get along very well with my in-laws, even without sinsod.
I didn't pay anything either. But other farangs have paid and I have not yet spoken to one who got his money back after the wedding, although there will undoubtedly be. A farang who had paid a lot thought that the “debt” to his in-laws had been settled. A miscalculation. The nagging for money just continued. For renovations, a wrecked car, etc.
The whole Sinsod tradition makes sense for a Thai family, if her family has helped her financially to get a good education.
An expensive school education from which the Family, unlike in the Western world, thought that it would also benefit financially later on, must suddenly be shared after a marriage with a marriage partner who has contributed nothing financially.
If someone has little or no education, and also has the opportunity to marry a financially better-off person (Farang), then in my opinion the sinsod tradition becomes completely unnecessary.
In such a case, immediately pour clear wine into the family for which there are limits for them, and the possible bride, so that they do not get utopian financial dreams.
If both the family and the future bride are still of the opinion that a sinsod should be paid, then you know exactly what to expect from this woman and her family later on.
I have been married for almost 20 years now and sinsod has never come up. In fact, we got 3 rai of land in the city of Nakhon Ratchasima from her mother as a wedding present. So know it. And my wife was never married and had no children.
Best regards. Ben korat
It's been a while since I was at my English friend's wedding, a great wedding with lots of drinks and food and a carriage in which the couple was driven around.
I nudged my Dutch friend who was with me and I say look what money and gold is going over the table here, yes I understood it was the sinsod.
After a few years passed!!! the couple was divorced and my English friend thought it was good that gold in the safe I'm going to hand it in to the gold shop.
No sooner said than done, he goes to the gold shop, the man starts laughing and says what should I do with this, that's all fake gold, his ex had exchanged everything for fake gold and had meanwhile run off with a German and lives long and wide in Germany.
So think before you start with that sinsod 55555 it can also end badly!!
No problem with my in-laws either. I was surprised myself before we got married, had never heard anything about it. They did not ask for a large amount, my wife also had a daughter who was 12 years old at the time. After all the guests had disappeared, my wife was refunded the full amount and the gold (in the form of a necklace) still hangs around my neck to this day. Almost 15 years now. Of course the party was completely at my expense, but that makes sense.
The whole sinsod thing is as sexist as it gets, with regard to daughters it is argued that "you pay for the upbringing and expenses that the parents have had". But if it concerns a son, you will not hear about it.
In addition, having a child is a choice of the parents and they must, of course, as everywhere else in the world, raise the children and provide them with all the necessities.
Your Thai friend's family was alive and in relative well-being before she met you, don't feel obligated to give anything to family and certainly not a huge amount of sinsod. Personally, in the event of a wedding, I pay for the party and a gift for my wife, but that's it.
Well, I've read the whole story and all the comments...
And to me it seems like a sinsod is something like a bar fine.
You pay the boss of the lady bar a bar fine, a fine,
because you're taking her from the bar
and the boss therefore no longer benefits from her.
Something like that right?
In that reasoning you do not buy your future by a sinsod,
but do you borrow her from the boss, in this case the in-laws.
Wasn't that a good find?
Agree with Charles, why get married? It's about having a good time together.
Marriage, such nonsense. Separation ratio 1:2 ? It is a deed, which dictates the rules in a divorce.
Actually wonder, what the promises are worth are actually in the contract and broken.
Maybe I should have thought about my divorce earlier, taking the woman to court for breaking vows and then asking for compensation. OK, over.