A story about healthcare and costs
We regularly read stories on this blog about the subject of health insurance. Especially for people who have deregistered in the Netherlands, this subject regularly gives rise to a lot of discussion. Many who have exchanged the Netherlands for Thailand grumble quite a bit about the rules of conduct of Dutch health insurers in particular.
In the very recently published interesting follow-up article 'The long journey through the (almost) earthly paradise', Hans Bos also expresses his heart about health insurers. “I now pay 495 euros a month to Univé, while healthcare here costs less than half of that in the Netherlands,” he writes.
I will try to explain why Hans Bos's remark is not valid in my opinion. In the first place, a comparison between Thailand and the Netherlands with regard to 'care' is impossible. The total costs of healthcare in the Netherlands are the highest in Europe and, in relative terms, we are in second place worldwide after the United States of America. Furthermore, the premium that someone pays depends on personal circumstances, which can be very different in Hans's case.
Costs
Every year, health care in the Netherlands costs a lot, a lot of money. No less than the astronomical amount of almost one hundred billion euros, or in figures: 100.000.000.000. Just to be clear, a billion is a thousand million. Read a nice comparison on the internet about what you can do with so much money. You can use it to finance 2300 royal houses every year. Who wants to complain about the costs of our royal family or about the endless debate within the government about the JSF program regarding the purchase of 37 starfighters? You can purchase no less than 1500 of those aircraft for that amount. Every year we now spend 15 ½ percent of our GDP, the gross domestic product, or the value of all goods and services produced within our country, on healthcare. In addition, we continue to discuss the poor care of the elderly in nursing homes. Too little attention for this group due to a shortage of nursing and care staff. In short, more money must be made available for the elderly.
spending money
We must make a distinction here between more ordinary care for the sick (cure) and long-term care (care). Our country is not particularly expensive as far as regular health care is concerned and we are around the average of what we call the rich countries. In terms of long-term care (care) for the elderly and disabled, the Netherlands is the most expensive country in the world. As far as long-term care is concerned, there is nowhere better to live than in our own little country.
What do we pay ourselves?
What we call paying 'out of pocket' is about one and a half percent of said GDP. You wouldn't want to believe it, in no other country citizens pay so little themselves. But; politicians are smart and in the end we pay everything ourselves through the premiums, not to mention the considerable taxes that can be counted among the highest in the world.
Live longer?
Unfortunately, there is no clear relationship between the cost of care and longer life. A few nice examples: in the USA life expectancy is two years lower than in the Netherlands, but healthcare costs almost half as much. Another example is South Korea, where people live almost the same age, but healthcare is half the price. And of course we are curious about life expectancy in Thailand.
The women live to be an average of 77.5 years and the men more than six years less at 71 years. In the Netherlands this percentage is considerably higher with 82.8 years for women and 79.1 for men. (2012) I myself have already exceeded the Dutch average and don't worry about settling in this otherwise nice (holiday) country. Years ago I would have died at the stake. Next week I will leave for Bangkok to continue traveling from there to visit the eighth wonder of the world. But more on that later.
My opinion
Why do I not agree with Hans Bos, whom I know and appreciate quite a bit. If you decide to deregister in the Netherlands, I think you have thought it through carefully. There are advantages and disadvantages to such an important decision. Let me start with the benefits that have also haunted my brain. As a Dutchman you immediately start calculating. As half Belgian - my distant ancestors came from there - I can already see the Belgian readers thinking “well that's inne Ollander again”. Yet; I too started calculating a few years ago after the sudden death of my dear wife.
Deregistering from the Netherlands meant a great financial advantage, whereby I dare to admit that I could have stayed in the almost earthly paradise just from that financial tax advantage. However, family circumstances prevented me from doing so. Others, including Hans, took a different decision with many advantages and a single disadvantage. You don't have to complain about a disadvantage afterwards. The many benefits surpass everything.
That is your own choice. And with a nice Dutch TV program; the Driving Judge to end: “This is my verdict and you have to make do with it.
How beautifully and clearly Joseph puts it! It is now clear to us what to do in 4 years! 🙂
@ Hans Bos, it was indeed a nice piece that you wrote with at least 99% truths, I can talk about it reasonably well after 20 years of fictional living in Thailand, so without having anything in the Netherlands.
@ Joseph, I agree with you in many cases if you have come of age to be able to emigrate and then check the books to see what the pros and cons are.
As far as I am concerned, I emigrated at the age of 36 and I cannot imagine that someone, you always have smart people, has looked at the pros and cons at that age??
I myself had insurance in Thailand for 15 years, Bangkok bank about 50.000 a year, and used it a few times for small things, until 4.5 years ago I had 2 cases in 4 months and then they came with the statement that the 2nd case in 4 months is no longer paid after 7 months it wasn't a problem, so still the bacon on my ass.
I just mean, and that's not to put anyone down, that you don't see a lot of things coming in advance, but these happen in Thailand while this is impossible in the Netherlands.
I know there will be riots again that it's my own fault, but even my own girlfriend, the same 21 years old, didn't understand it anymore either.
Now walk around uninsured because you are no longer insured with all the companies for all your cases that you have, and I have quite a few.
There is no need for pity, fortunately I can manage without insurance, but if there ever comes 1 who insures everything, I will certainly take it, but of course you should not come up with something of 500 euros because no one with a normal pension can do that pay, I think.
Have a nice holiday everyone.
Joseph, I did make the decision to deregister in NL, with the loss of compulsory health insurance as known in advance. I fully share your opinion, that was my conscious choice, so you shouldn't complain about it.
Another thing is whether it is fair that someone who deregisters in NL has to deal with this. When I was a little younger, fully contributing to the system, I was relatively less likely to have to rely on this system. Now that I'm a bit older, that chance increases. In that case, in my opinion, it is not reasonable that our deregistered persons are deprived of the possibility of continuing the health care policy.
But like I said, this was my choice and I'm not complaining about it.
The fact that Hans now pays 495 Euros per month (previously +/- 350 Euros) for a healthcare policy in NL is also his decision. He succeeded at Univé, the insurer where I was insured did not offer that option, which is also remarkable.
Anyway, I really wouldn't pay that 495 Euro a month, that is roughly 20.000 THB per month or 240.000 THB per year!! Didn't see me, better save this amount yourself.
That is also your own decision, insurance in Thailand also provides limited coverage or you also pay blue. So no policy in Thailand either. Again, own decision, obviously.
You can take these facts into account, partly depending on someone's financial possibilities and current health.
So everyone who is considering emigrating and deregistering in NL knows or can know this, own choice, done!
Nico B
I have been coming to Thailand for more than 25 years, always for a holiday of about 4 weeks. In 2006 I also wanted to emigrate to Thailand. But in hindsight I'm glad I didn't. In 2010 I fell ill and several rounds of chemotherapy later, my husband and I left for the beloved Thailand again for a longer period, never more than 7 months because then we are ghost citizens. I now remain insured with the VGZ, not the cheapest, but I also go for a checkup with my specialists in the Netherlands every time. The care in Thailand is also fine, but there is still that language barrier.
Indeed Foodlover, the care in Thailand is there, and can be great!
Write from experience, and were not simple interventions.
I also had chemo, radiation and surgery this year, and it is far from over (< 5 years).
Am 43. But I have abandoned the plans to emigrate permanently.
Insurance in Thailand is too expensive considering pre-existing conditions and history!
But with the current cost of Belgian health insurance (supplemented with an extra hospital plan) I'm not expensive, and medically speaking we are among the world's best in our region. Nice for small countries like the Netherlands and Belgium. And do I regret not living in Thailand because of that? Oh, we go as much as we can, and are happy to have 2 houses !;~)
Thanks also to Joseph's clear contribution to these views.
A nice story, but I wonder how you got the 100 million.
If that includes the costs of the health insurers, that would be nice, because they are bulking with money.
There are 14 million people in the Netherlands and about 9 million people pay an average of 120 euros per month.
Then you arrive at almost 100 million euros
I think Hans Bos is right. The health insurers ask too much money from expats.
It has nothing to do with your decision, or, was it about the fact that healthcare is cheaper here than in the Netherlands, and the health insurers are making a profit here
I hope the moderator will post this
Read the SP's plan, which was published today.
computing
Compuding, read carefully. The amount is not 100 million but 100 billion and that is a different story.
Brilliant story, very enlighteningly worded, but not quite correct? Healthcare costs are skyrocketing due to fraud, skulduggery
by doctors, hospitals, specialists, etc. If this were looked at very carefully, a lot could be saved. In addition, I believe that as a retiree you should be able to settle anywhere while maintaining your health insurance based on the applicable rate in the Netherlands and in accordance with reimbursement of costs as in the Netherlands. And force all those people who do not now pay their premium to pay their premium. Just withhold their benefits. What good is the right and freedom of movement if it becomes impossible on the other hand If I stay in the Netherlands I will suffer from pain and sit behind the geraniums with very few options. In a warm country much less pain and a better life and possibilities. We are already being cut on all sides? If you are deregistered, you no longer have any rights as a Dutch citizen as only obligations. And yes, people are often milked in terms of the monthly premium because they have no other decent choice. But we also have paid for our entire life. And for us it is not about long-term care but about normal health care: Hospital, medicine, etc. If you are retired, the financial benefit is very limited because you continue to pay tax on your state pension and state pension.
Dear Jo, your story is pretty short sighted. You grumble more often at people who criticize something or someone when it comes to the Netherlands. I know what you have done and dare to say that you can make a very good living from it. In that respect you have (too) easy talking.
Now my comment about Dutch health insurance. We all make our own decisions and try to estimate the future as best we can. I made my decision in 2005 and (fortunately) built in some unforeseen. Who could have foreseen the banking crisis at that time? Who could have foreseen that the annual premium at Univé would rise from 260 euros then to 495 euros now? And that without any explanation? The Dutch government is changing the rules of the game, so that the accrual of state pension does not start at age 15, but at age 17. As a result, people who are no longer active and will retire within a few years will lose 4 percent. You don't have to worry about that anymore at your age....
It would be nice if you also had an eye for people in Thailand (and other countries) who are less fortunate than you.
By the way, greetings, Hans
Can't help but agree with Joseph. What you mention, among other things, no matter how annoying, are a kind of 'business risks' that also include unforeseen circumstances that entrepreneurs can experience. For example, measures may arise that are beneficial, but others may turn out to be detrimental.
Doesn't change the fact that I personally don't mind having to pay less premium, eh yes, I can't help but admit that too.
Dear Hans, Government and Health Insurer are two different entities. You have concluded an agreement with a health insurer and the government is separate from this. I don't grumble at people at all, but some people often have completely unfounded criticism of the Netherlands and I thought it was okay to express my opinion against that. Shortly through the bend you write. That's not clear to me. Of course I cannot describe all the ins and outs of this subject in a concise article, but what I write is the truth. The government has to dig into its pockets to pay for the care. And where does the government get the money from? Indeed, the taxpayer pays for it. If you voluntarily leave for another country and no longer pay tax in the Netherlands, you also have no right to speak about care. Suppose that the taxpayer has to pay for all compatriots who have deregistered and moved to anywhere in the world. Would that be fair? The very last sentence of your response “It would be to your credit ..” has grieved me and I wonder who can judge that.
Dear Joseph Boy,
In a response to a message from Hans you write:
“But what I write is the truth. The government has to dig into its pockets to pay for the care. And where does the government get the money from? Indeed, the taxpayer pays for it. If you voluntarily leave for another country and no longer pay taxes in the Netherlands, you also have no right to speak about care.”
In other words: as soon as the emigrant does pay tax, he does have a right to speak. And I have to agree with you on that.
So the question is, does he pay any taxes? And here you miss the mark completely.
I will give you 2 common examples, which occur among Dutch people who have emigrated to Thailand.
Example 1.
You are a single AOW pensioner. Then your gross (and therefore taxable) income is € 14.218 (including holiday allowance).
After tax, social insurance premiums and income-related contribution to the Healthcare Insurance Act (Zvw), you are left with € 13.483 net.
Now you have emigrated to Thailand. Your gross income is now also € 14.218.
But now you only have € 13.031 net after tax. So a decrease in disposable income of € 452.
Example 2.
You have a (tax) partner who has not yet reached state pension age. You receive a full AOW partner allowance.
In that case, your gross (taxable) income is € 19.334.
After deduction of tax and premiums, your net income is € 16.966.
In addition, your partner will receive a payment of part of the general tax credit up to an amount of € 1.431.
This brings the family income to be spent to € 18.397.
Now you have emigrated to Thailand. Your gross income is now also € 19.334. After tax, you will be left with € 17.720. However, your partner forfeits the payment of the part of the general tax credit.
The family income to be spent therefore remains stuck at € 17.720.
This therefore means a loss of disposable family income of € 677.
Emigrated Dutch people form a cash cow for the Dutch treasury. So never talk about “emigrants who do not pay tax in the Netherlands, who therefore have no right to speak about healthcare costs” if you have not eaten any cheese about this because, contrary to what you claim of yourself: what you write does not contain any truth.
Joseph, you're completely wrong again. Why are government and insurers 2 different entities? The entire health insurance system is based on legislation, which is determined by the government. The health insurers are no more than executors of regulations.
It is also not correct that the government takes the money for care from the taxpayer. With this you once again paint a completely wrong picture with regard to the situation of Hans Bos. More than 55% of the healthcare costs are covered by health insurance premiums, nominal premium deducted from wages, deductible, personal contributions (other than deductible) and supplementary insurance policies. If you also consider that about 90 billion of the 50 billion is spent on healthcare (cure), you can conclude that healthcare is largely financed by the insured and the system is therefore self-supporting. It is therefore not the case that Hans Bos benefits from the taxpayer in the Netherlands, but rather the other way around, that the insured in the Netherlands benefit from people like Hans Bos, who have to pay absurd premiums that bear no relation to the costs of health care where he uses can make of.
I think you would do well next time to analyze things yourself and not copy entire pieces of text from internet sources and process them as the only truth in comments on others!
Dear Bacchus and Lammert, what strikes me and that is why I respond is that YOU do know. Ok, but then why don't you agree about the taxpayer paid and the other says: The taxpayer doesn't pay that!
What do I actually want to say? One of you doesn't know either and falsely attacks Joseph!
But who knows, maybe the fellow bloggers and myself will get a link who is right now…..
Dear kjay,
I am indeed the one who says that you do have to pay taxes if you live in Thailand. I stated that you are even the cash cow for the Dutch treasury. I have also calculated this with two examples in my earlier post about this. But even after that, people continue to respond with the statement that you do not pay tax in the Netherlands. I therefore have the impression that people are venting their biased position here without reading the messages about it or first orienting themselves further with regard to this item.
You ask for a link. I can indeed give it to you. Today I have adapted my website with a few examples about the tax and premium burden when living in the Philippines or Thailand, compared to this pressure when living in the Netherlands.
See for this: http://www.lammertdehaan.heerenveennet.nl
Then go to the “Tax news” tab. There you will find the example calculations that I have already posted on the blog, fully worked out.
I hope it will be clear to you then.
Lammert de Haan.
Dear Hans,
I understand the cost explosion related to your health insurance, which has risen from 260 euros to 495 euros. Only the last part of your comment where you point to a 4% loss in those people who will retire in a few years is not entirely clear to me. As far as I understand, the Dutch government, just like Germany, wants people to retire 2 years later, because our life expectancy is constantly improving, and the costs are rising as a result.
Someone who now first retires at the age of 67 remains independent of whether he has worked or not insured for 50 years, so that he/she receives the full Aow. The only thing that has changed is that people can now only enjoy their state pension 2 years later, but normally, given life expectancies, they also benefit for longer. However, because I live in Germany for a large part of the year, I am not aware of any transitional arrangements for the elderly who will soon turn 65, it would indeed be good if they had a gradual arrangement. Concerning our European health insurance, I can report that these are also becoming more and more expensive, with fewer and fewer reimbursements, so that most also have to count on high additional payments, which are almost unaffordable for many pensioners, while they are still cheaper in Thailand.
That 4% is because the AOW entitlement accrual is going from 15 to 17 years.
So someone who has left the Netherlands for this change in law,
will be reduced for an additional 2 years on his AOW benefit.
So 2 * 2% is a 4% discount on the AOW.
Sorry Albert, this information is incorrect, the state pension accrual is now from age 17 to age 67. so 100% if you have lived in NL all these years and have been liable for national insurance contributions.
Nico B
Dear Albert,
If you wait until the age at which you are entitled to an AOW benefit, you will simply receive 100%, and this will only be done on the basis of attendance, regardless of whether you are still working or not.
I myself left the Netherlands at the age of 39, and I am entitled to 48% of the AOW, so I cannot blame the Dutch government, all the more so that no one forced me, just like all other emigrants.
Deregistering from the Netherlands is only a disadvantage for me. No, I repeat, no tax benefit. Working for years to live peacefully on my pension here in Thailand is officially not possible. I make much less use of healthcare here in Thailand than in the Netherlands. And if I have to incur costs, they are so lasg that the declaration alone is already more expensive.
Kees, so I have a government pension, you continue to pay tax on it in NL, you can request an exemption for private pensions in NL on the basis of the Thailand-Netherlands Treaty.
For the record, the AOW will always remain taxed in NL, that rate is low.
So bad luck with a government pension, then you do indeed have no tax benefit, except perhaps for assets, box 3, which was taxed in NL and untaxed living in Thailand.
Check your pension origin again, some government pensions are untaxed.
Success.
Nico B
All nice stories with the background to pay too much. But no one is talking about the fact that if you emigrate, you no longer pay taxes and premiums in the Netherlands. A nice advantage. If you add that you also add the mandatory Dutch flight returns, which will soon be € 650 to 850, the benefit becomes greater. Then the advantages that Thailand offers: no heating, no winter clothing, almost everything cheaper than in NL or B. Then staying here has its advantages. If you now insure yourself via Hua-Hin for in-patient, say at age 65, about € 2500, then those medical expenses will remain manageable and you will certainly have something left over for other things that you would otherwise have to leave in NL and B. Just ask André or Matthieu.
Greetings with a healthy life…..
My insurance, Health Care, has increased the premium from 3300 euros to 8500 when I reach the age of 76. This with a deductible of 2000 euros. Never claimed anything in 10 years.
They just want to get rid of you.
In those 10 years you could have saved 10 x (on average about 5000) per year, you can spend a nice while in the hospital with the necessary treatments.
Sorry, but I don't understand the whole story! You do not agree with Hans Bos with regard to the health insurance premium, then mention a whole laundry list of supposedly beautiful things in the Netherlands with regard to health care, which do not provide any explanation for the high premium that Hans Bos pays, and then you with the real reason why you do not agree with Hans Bos and that is: "Emigrating has advantages and disadvantages". The high premium is therefore seen as a disadvantage.
In fact, you just say: “Hans Bos, you shouldn't complain, you want to live in Thailand and be insured by a Dutch insurance company, so you just have to pay according to Dutch standards, despite the fact that Univé knows that healthcare costs in Thailand are much lower. lie". Then you link that to the “great” healthcare in the Netherlands, from which we can conclude that you think it is normal that emigrants continue to pay for healthcare costs in the Netherlands.
A strange story and a strange way of looking at things! Personally, I would think that an insurance company should take local conditions into account when determining a premium. To avoid unnecessary discussions; of course, the insurance must therefore only provide local coverage! So if Hans Bos has only insured healthcare costs within Thailand, he will pay an absurdly high premium.
The sad truth is that insurance companies, such as Univé, are knowingly taking advantage of the situation for their own profit (read profit). As a foreigner, taking out health insurance in Thailand is very difficult, especially if you are elderly, and that is the majority of people who emigrate to Thailand. This fact is gratefully used by (Western) insurance companies in an almost mafia-like manner!
Then about all that hosanna regarding Dutch care.
To begin with, the Netherlands, with its 90 billion in healthcare costs, is not the big spender in Europe; Switzerland and Norway spend even more. The Netherlands is a leader within the EU, but the differences with other Northern European countries are very marginal.
What is disturbing and more telling in this context is that the Netherlands has the most expensive health insurance in Europe. In the UK, healthcare is free. In Belgium, France and Germany there is a kind of health insurance fund that is all much cheaper than Dutch insurance. According to the World Health Organization, France has the best health insurance system. And so on…. Unfortunately, this is all ignored for a moment, but this makes it clear why Hans Bos pays so much.
What I find extremely strange is that the height of the costs is by definition linked to quality. I quote: “In terms of long-term care for the elderly and disabled, the Netherlands is the most expensive country in the world. As far as long-term care is concerned, there is nowhere better to live than in our own little country.” How different is the current reality! Newspapers are full of excesses in healthcare! Care offices are complaining stone and bone! Tens of thousands of layoffs in healthcare! The elderly are refused (certain) medication! Medical intervention is determined by costs, not by medical necessity (read survival). Here too I can quote hours from news reports. Despite all the shocking reports and figures, our prime minister dismisses this as "little incidents"! What do you mean, good care in the Netherlands? Care will only be accessible to the wealthy, the rest can make do with informal care!
Just a few more facts. Since the liberalization in 2006, healthcare costs for the Dutch have risen by 57%(!!)! Insurance companies make billions in profits every year on the backs of the MANDATORY insured! There are now more than 300.000 Dutch people who can no longer afford their health insurance! The premiums are expected to rise again in 2016, as well as the personal contribution. Also for people who depend on unpaid informal care!
You may call it a disadvantage, but Hans Bos simply pays far too much premium related to Thai healthcare costs due to the rampant banditry of Dutch health insurers. I'll give it a few more years and then many Dutch people who have not emigrated will have the same feeling as Hans Bos!
Indeed a strange story first of all the budget for the total care for 2016 is 74′,6 billion. And there are plenty of people who haven't unsubscribed themselves. But if you do not stay in the Netherlands for a year, many municipalities will automatically deregister you. And why pay 4 times as much as someone who simply lives in the Netherlands. The Netherlands is a free country after all. Should you be punished for doing what you do?
After all, people have paid taxes and premiums all their lives. Then one of those gluttons in The Hague should decide that you are a pariah. If we are going to agree with this, you will soon also only be able to spend your AOW in the Netherlands.
Joseph Boy, you are forgetting something very essential.
Instead of criticizing Hans Bos's article in question, it would have been better if you had studied the subject a little more. And then you would have come to a completely different conclusion than what you write down now.
When the health insurance law was introduced in the Netherlands on 1-1-2006, many people in various countries, including Thailand, were thrown out of the old 'private health insurance'. The Health Insurance Act did not provide for its continuation under the new legislation.
All emigrants who were with a health insurance company and did NOT have a so-called foreign policy became uninsured overnight. They often became knights-errant with a medical past and then go find shelter somewhere.
With a medical history you get a higher (let's say: a prohibitive) premium, exclusions or both. That group was unable to prepare and was snowed under by the new legislation and you cannot blame those people for getting into trouble. This group includes non- or limited-insured emigrants in various countries.
As a tax specialist, I have clients in Thailand and the Philippines who are considering returning to the Netherlands for that reason, and the Netherlands is then saddled with sharply rising healthcare costs. Also consider this: pay relatively much more income tax but not burden the community in the Netherlands with healthcare costs. No, you pay for that yourself!
The form of your insurance depends on income, assets, medical history and the politics in two countries. It has become apparent that politics in the Netherlands can be erratic. You can also drop the word "unreliable" if you consider the 62% tax increase in brackets 1 and 2 in the Netherlands as of 1-1-2015. Not to mention the abolition of tax credits and the potential deduction of income tax expenses if you live in Thailand and many other countries! And that can amount to thousands of euros, especially if you also have a tax partner! Should something like this happen in the Netherlands: I assure you that the Malieveld would be too small. I think that 10 “Malie Fields” is not even enough.
If I were you, I would entrust a slightly more nuanced story to paper (keyboard) in the future, assuming that you have of course first thoroughly studied the matter.
Regards,
Lammert de Haan.
I completely agree with Hans Bos.
The Dutch health insurance companies, if at all possible, are pulling the skin over everyone's nose.
And further.
That is not yet quite working out the way the insurance farmers would like, but it will get there.
But, the “expats”, they can simply be turned off.
And verily, if you have to pay almost 500 euros per month, or 20,000 baht, then you can safely speak of exploitation.
The comparison and explanation that one of the contributors brings up can, in my view, only come from the brain of what is called a very well-to-do person.
A somewhat less fortunate, such as Hans Bos and yours truly, struggle against high premiums, exclusions, and exploitation by Dutch “Health” insurance farmers.
Mind you, the profits of these companies in the Netherlands are bulging.
And just shrinking the facilities.
And healthcare providers continue to abuse the ingrained possibilities in the monster of Hogervorst.
Whatever the reason for the expat to move to Thailand, the fact remains that most of them have spent years and years paying for the amenities, and in most cases have made little or no use of the amenities.
And we can also say that these expats have disappeared from sight and from the heart of the Dutch government.
A government that simply flouts all agreements and contracts along the way.
But yes, condoning abuse of circumstances for the glory of profit is all the rage these days.
As seen in some comments.
The remark that when you leave NL you no longer pay taxes and premiums in NL is correct.
But, do pay taxes in Thailand.
Fortunately, less than in the Netherlands, but still.
And that almost everything in Thailand is cheaper than in the Netherlands?
That was once.
Made an overview for a certain party in NL for the cost of living in Thailand for an expat living alone.
Even before last year's price explosion, I already reached an amount of more than 1000 euros per month.
And there's really nothing crazy about it.
Joseph's story is as leaky as a sieve and makes no sense. I don't know where he got that "wisdom" from, but it is certainly not based on any evidence. His comparisons are even arrogant. I also read stories about paying taxes from others: I just pay the full tax in NL (no social security contributions indeed).
As an old soldier and war veteran, I depend on the Unive, Other insurance simply refuses me. What about former KNIL soldiers who want to spend their last days in Indonesia? Former soldiers who want to return to their native country after a roadside bomb (Morocco, Turkey, or just want to live in Thailand, etc.) Now the whole scandal around PX10, people with PTSD. All dependent on the University. Unive is obliged to take in these people and to continue to insure them until their death. So there is definitely another side to Joseph's whole story. So I would take it back very quickly.
You can of course say that health insurers charge too much money to expats (and that may be the case), but no one knows how much they incur from those expats.
The premium for health insurance in the Netherlands is an average across all age groups, while in Thailand the majority of insured persons are older people, who on average cost more.
Furthermore, everyone walks into the most expensive hospitals for a consultation, instead of going to a general practitioner as in the Netherlands.
The costs for care (cure) in Thailand will therefore be considerably higher than in the Netherlands.
can also opt for insurance in Thailand. The costs are a lot lower than in Thailand, but not everything is covered. But if the costs are 60%, you can also put something aside just in case.
Nice story. But why does he have to pay so much now? That was what it was all about anyway. Why € 495,00 at Univé while healthcare in THAILAND is much cheaper.
Read somewhere from Hans himself that his premium of 260 euros was increased in one go to the current 495 euros per month.
Why that is so, you do not read. "Just out of nowhere" doesn't seem like an explanation to me
The reason may be: additional diagnosis, additional risk must be covered, chronic illness ...
Have further acquaintances here in Thailand. Worked for NGOs, multinationals… they all pay around the amount that Hans also has to deposit. So not that insurmountable, right.
You can enjoy cheap care in Thailand, in the state hospitals.
In private hospitals, an operation often costs the same as in your home country IF you are insured. Of course you have no knowledge of that amount yourself, unless you are uninsured. And then you can go shopping at the hospitals, and even haggle.
I myself have been walking around here for 11 years without insurance.
I was never sick during that period , so these years have been premium gains for me .
I know how insurance companies and banks work in Thailand.
Paying a relatively high premium for a low benefit, or not at all if you are sick more often.
In the beginning I was once insured for a year with the BUPA, I didn't like it at all.
But fortunately I have sufficient financial resources that if something were to happen, I could pay the costs for my health myself.
If I see what you have already lost monthly if the possibility existed , that you would have to pay a Dutch person living in Thailand as a premium is not nothing .
If you only have state pension and a small pension, you can certainly forget the thought of living permanently in Thailand at an older age.
Paying 495 Euro every month is how I read here , your pension is gone .
Jan Beute.
If you have to pay a lot of premium, it is better to put the money aside. If you are still reasonably healthy
The problem is that regulations in the Netherlands change every minute to the detriment of expats in Thailand and other countries – see also the need to qualify to be eligible for the tax credits
It is also made difficult for expats to take out health insurance in favor of parties that sit on various boards of the insurers.
I have raised this with various parties in the Netherlands to make this problem known and discussed in the House of Representatives. I hope for more support from the expats in Thailand who only complain via the Thailand blog, etc.
I do not understand how people can complain about the level of health insurance contributions in the Netherlands. I lived in the Netherlands for 25 years and worked in Germany. My German colleagues had to pay double for their medical expenses. In the beginning, when I lived in the Netherlands again, I still paid in Germany. At the time, the insurance in the Netherlands saved me about 500 guilders per month.
Now I can understand that as a Dutch person you find the health costs in Thailand high. They are high compared to the Netherlands. Compared to German insurance, however, not so.
Nevertheless, relative to the income of many who live here, it is extremely expensive to be insured here. You may pay insurance, but then you can hardly do anything fun in your life here… then you start to wonder what is more important. Especially if you realize that as you get older, you have to pay more and more and if you use the insurance too much, you will be kicked out or you will not be reimbursed anything. What's the point of that insurance then?
I am still relatively young and have not yet reached my retirement age. But when it comes to the point that I can no longer afford anything, then I will also go back to the Netherlands or Germany and claim all the facilities there that I can still get and then fly, as far as my health allows, every year to Thailand for 8 months. At least that way you can meet all the conditions and enjoy both sides.
I myself have been uninsured here for 4.5 years now and that saves a lot, you can spend a nice while in the hospital. I am difficult to insure because of a heart attack in 2005, but for the time being I have not incurred any costs here.
In short, if you have some money behind you, I think it's better not to insure here.
Everyone in the Netherlands is compulsorily insured. In the Netherlands, a system is used that calculates average treatment costs. For example, for a meniscus operation, a fixed amount is paid to the care provider with whom the insurance company has a contract. In one case the healthcare provider may have an advantage and in another case the insurer. If you choose a different hospital yourself, your insurance can discount you by 25% on the amount that would normally have been reimbursed for you.
If you do not want to interrupt your winter or long-term holiday and want to be treated in Thailand, you already have a 25% discount on your pants because you choose a non-contracted care provider. Local conditions are also not taken into account, chances of infections in the tropics are greater, so you are often monitored more intensively, which also entails extra costs.
Being treated in the tropics is therefore not always cheaper than in the Netherlands.
Travel insurance does not always offer a solution either, because if your situation is not labeled as urgent, it will not pay out.
In any case, it costs you money, or you pay an expensive unplanned ticket to the Netherlands or you are reduced on your reimbursement.
Unfortunately, I too have become wiser through trial and error.
Every time this subject comes up, the supporters and opponents of the policy with regard to health care heat up. There is a lot of self in the stories you read in the comments. How old are you, how much money do you have, how sick are you and whether or not you emigrated. Everything you do has consequences and can be beneficial or disadvantageous. There should be no distinction between people when it comes to health care costs. The Dutch all over the world should be able to obtain costs and benefits in equal measure. You have to do your best for this. A clean task for the Dutch government. Unfortunately, there are too many political parties and that is one of the reasons why the hassle continues and unjust acts are committed. The health costs are so high partly because for years nothing was done about corruption in the Netherlands in the medical field and the self-enrichment of insurers.
There must be a government that is separate from the parties and that will equally represent the interests of all Dutch people and monitor the spending of our tax money. Our democracy is not working as it should either. What's there now is also a joke. It will not improve financially for ordinary citizens with rising costs for the reception of asylum seekers, to name but a few. So, partly because of this, the government and policy officials will look to cut people even more because we still have it very good in the Netherlands???!!!
I'm really unsure about what I'm going to do now, whether or not to emigrate. I have calculated the costs in Thailand and they are quite high. To rent a bungalow with air conditioning, internet, fish pond and second-hand car and insurance and some other costs, I spend about 1500 euros per month. Then I really don't live luxuriously, but normally, like I have in the Netherlands. It is very difficult to make a choice based on snapshots, because it of course has consequences, but it also depends on choices made by governments. As we all know, these cannot be trusted, because they all think differently. Last year I had calculations made about how much I would receive in pre-pension and this was then made clear to me. Now that I am about to receive my pension, there appears to be another change in tax legislation that means I will receive 3000 euros less pension. The ABP washes its hands of innocence, because they only implement the rules as they say.
My fear is, and there are all possible reasons for this, that things will only get worse around the world and certainly in the Netherlands.
As a civil servant you see that you will receive a salary increase if you surrender future pension money for it.
Cigar from its own box. Yes, the accountants know what they are doing.
With a very unfavorable financial situation in terms of health costs as an emigrated person, which means that you also have less money to live on, this does not give me a pleasant feeling. This should not be the case because I am and will remain a Dutchman and discrimination in any area feels like injustice.
Well, we seem to have been a bit lucky to find a good INTERNATIONAL ZKV (which therefore also reimburses treatment in NL or B, (except USA & Canada) and who also insures people over 70!
The costs for this insurance are for me, over 70 years old, 3600 euro pyr and for 60-64 year olds 2150 euro, without excess and for In Patient, Day Case and Out Patient.
I am happy to help anyone who is interested. You can reach me by email: [email protected].
Aad
In many reactions you can read that the premiums are considered too expensive.
Some solve this by being uninsuredly cheerful and free.
Until they become seriously ill, because you also read those stories on blogs. Then there is a call for solidarity or there are actions to get fellow countryman X repatriated to country of origin Y, where he could still receive the necessary care after years of absence. Well, that 'cure' and 'care' is also paid for by the community, isn't it.
And, of course, no one wants to get sick, and then some also view insurance premiums as lost money. Well, but it doesn't work that way. It is about the principle of solidarity: a group of people pays a premium for when one falls ill, and they then fully enjoy the benefits of the care. Viewing insurance as an investment is therefore wrong; hopefully you never need them. With a fire insurance policy, you wouldn't wish for a fire after X time to be able to exhaust your rights to the insurance policy and 'benefit'?
Furthermore, Joseph gives a clear vision, others have their own – different – vision. And then rave about whether or not you are right.
There is only one who is right and that is Father! To quote the Driving Judge: “This is my verdict and you have to make do with it.
From 1 May I (62 years old) am insured with BDAE/Wurzburger Versicherung. Inpatient and outpatient including any medication and a dental check-up per year for a premium of 195 euros per month. Own risk is 250 euros per year. Policy guarantee for at least 5 years. German law applies, with options for the settlement of any disputes by an independent commission. Furthermore, world coverage (except for USA and Canada) is included + World Assistance via Allianz. An insurance office in Saarbrucken acts as an intermediary and I have nothing but praise for the excellent individual and English-language guidance from this office. So there are definitely possibilities in Thailand to be 'all-round' and virtually unlimited insurance against medical expenses of any kind in Thailand for a reasonable premium.
This insurance may be good, but you can only use it until you turn 67. After that it's over and that's what this is all about.... many expats who live here are 65 or older and then they have no use for that insurance, because they don't get it.
Have a look at this under point 4: https://www.bdae.com/de/downloads/Expat_Private.pdf