The other side of the Medaille
I have been following this blog for several years now. And most writers and commenters are generally positive about Thailand. (Not so strange, by the way, because if you weren't so positive you wouldn't be reading this blog every day).
We are not positive about everything in this country, and the opinions of Western expats on certain matters sometimes differ (there are more PVV and VVD voters among Dutch expats than social-democratic oriented, according to the election results: see www.thailandblog.nl/expats-en-pensionado/Elections/Elections-tweede-kamer-2017/), but all things considered, the scales tip in the right direction for everyone.
If we personally experience something with which we (heartfeltly) disagree (alleged injustice, incomprehensible regulations, incomprehensible or discriminatory behavior of ordinary Thais, of officials or employees of banks, shops and otherwise) we are only too happy to point out the blessings which we Western expats, individually but also as a group, bring to this country and its inhabitants, especially in a financial and emotional sense.
But are those blessings really so great and so unequivocal? Do we have an eye for the possibly negative aspects associated with our existence, our life, living and working here in Thailand? Let me highlight the other side of the medal in this post.
Money
Of course, it is primarily about money. With few exceptions, Western expats are all richer than their Thai partners. And not a little richer, but much richer. That is slowly changing, but it will take decades before the Thai life partners have as much money as the Western partner. The euros from the state pension and the pension are spent monthly in Thailand and then I'm not even talking about the expats who have transferred their entire assets to Thailand. Luxury goods such as real estate, cars, holidays, stocks, companies, furniture are mainly bought from this, and the money is also invested in the future of the (joint or joint) children. Nothing wrong with that, I hear you think. Indeed. “You shouldn't think that happiness can only be bought that way, but money works wonders and especially if it is a lot” (“Poen, money, money” from the musical Anatevka)
But there is also a downside to having and showing a lot of money, especially to people and in regions that are not used to it. Or perhaps better expressed: who are not used to seeing this in people whom they regard as equal villagers or family members. On the one hand, this is cause for amazement (based on insufficient knowledge: how can an ordinary expat with an ordinary job have so much money when he retires) and respect (he must have worked hard for it and/or is smart ). On the other hand, it can be/become a reason for sudden excessive behavior, for jealousy and envy. Just like some expats (read some stories here on the blog), some Thais can't handle the luxury of suddenly having a lot of money. Sometimes it is thrown over the bar (booze, gambling, drugs), sometimes it is invested in business without thinking carefully about whether this is wise (another bar or restaurant, yet another mobile phone shop, yet another Facebook page with online beauty products).
Lots of money also leads to envy and jealousy. From close relatives, neighbors and other village or town residents. Why is she a foreign rich man and not me? The attitude sometimes changes (a little) when it turns out that a marriage with a foreign man is not always easy. Sometimes he is not as rich as he pretended to be, has all kinds of expenses in the homeland, is not as nice as on all those holidays, adapts less than the Thai woman expected and promised, thinks that the Thai countryside just like the Dutch countryside and sometimes he has the same obnoxious habits as 'all men'. I will not elaborate on this.
Lots of money can also lead to unexpected and outrageous behavior. Many years ago I had a friend from Isan that I did not live with. As soon as her brother noticed that his older sister had a foreign boyfriend, he quit his job (he had a small job and earned very little, but still) and called her weekly to transfer money for his moped and his daily Leo . I'm pretty sure other expats can provide similar examples.
Ideas that spread
No matter how you look at it, the vast majority of Western expats come here with a different mindset than the way of thinking of the Thais. This obviously has to do with the state of development in the Western world in all kinds of areas (education and science, technology, logistics, etc.) and also with the difference in norms and values. Most of us grew up with Christian, social-democratic or liberal values and with little or no knowledge of Buddhism and Islam. In addition, there is a big difference between the democratic development of Western countries on the one hand (a situation that is very normal for us) and Thailand on the other hand (a situation that is strange to us).
Collectively, this leads to a difference in views on the role of government in a society, the acceptance and internalization of authority and power, a difference in ideas about upbringing (of boys and girls), about sexual behaviour, differences in the acceptance of sexual orientation (not always in the direction you would expect), in the power of the earthly and superterrestrial and not least a difference in ideas about what is private (indoors) and public.
My own research shows that Western expats who have lived in Thailand for more than 6 years adapt fairly easily to Thai values and standards, with the exception of 1 point. People have great difficulty with the greater importance that Thais attach to the (closest family and acquaintances) group than to the interest of the individual. The Thais are mainly collectivistic, Western expats mainly individualistic. And that clashes. This manifests itself at many times and in many situations. In the above example, it took me some time and persuasion to convince my girlfriend that I was not going to pay for her brother's expenses, who, of all things, had quit his job and now - in my experience and words - was benefiting of the fact that we both worked full-time.
Interference
We also want to do something with those ideas that we have as expats. We may be a bit older and/or retired, but we are healthy and full of energy. And this country could use some good advice from experienced people, right? There are all kinds of restrictions for real work (work permit, wrong type of visa, 'forbidden' professions, see the recent protests of the Thai hairdressers!!) And so we meddle in things, each in his own way and in his own world. We often think we know better but are sometimes overtaken by the practical intelligence of the Thais, sometimes based on knowledge passed down from generation to generation. Whether it concerns technical matters or medical matters. But are the Thais actually waiting for our advice, no matter how well-intentioned? Don't they know everything better themselves? They could be Western expats were it not for the fact that this is their country. In my experience it really depends on how you take it.
We respect the Thais but we don't think we should adapt to the Thais in everything. We do not intend to become Buddhists, we send our children to international schools and universities (costs a bit more but then you also get something), we don't eat spicy food every day (let alone fried grasshoppers or cockroaches), we don't let allow them to grab a beer from our fridge without being asked and we refuse to participate in all kinds of corruption.
Thailand is for the Thais. Nice, but a piece of Thailand belongs to and for us. After all, we pay for it too. A bit of strange reasoning when you realize that a large part of the Dutch expats vote for the PVV; the party that believes that the Netherlands belongs to the Dutch and not to Muslims. Of course it may be that the expat has fled the Netherlands because more and more Muslims are coming, but still. Then you don't flee to a country that has many more Muslims than the Netherlands and where you form a large minority with your (Christian-Jewish, social-democratic or liberal) ideas, and are therefore expected to adapt completely? If these Muslims in the homeland are all economic refugees, are the Western expats in Thailand all sexual, relational refugees?
Yes, I'm meddling in things here. When it comes to improving education, that is even one of my tasks as a teacher. I don't feel like a guest in Thailand or a sexual refugee. I live, work and live here. Just as Americans, Germans and Turks live and live in the Netherlands. I left the Netherlands behind. Thailand is my new homeland. I write stories here on this blog. Do I think Thailand and/or Thais will change as a result? No. I write comments on the Internet, on newspaper blogs. Do I think someone cares about that? Not really, but sometimes a little bit. It is not so much meddling that drives me, but an attitude that I can influence the world a little and that I have to use my talents to achieve that. That meddling in business is allowed by me; maybe I should. Everyone does that in their own way. The level of possible results of your involvement depends on the levels at which you operate and engage and how good and/or widespread your networks are in this country, not to mention those of your life partner.
I have been a university teacher in Bangkok for 10 years now and have had about 1000 to 1200 young Thais in my class during that time; most of them from the higher social classes (children of entrepreneurs, generals, parliamentarians). I don't teach them WHAT to think, but THAT they should think (independently and freely) to solve the problems they encounter in their lives (private or elsewhere). If that message gets to 10%, I'll be happy. And it is not for nothing that I interfered with the future of this country and also a little with the future of myself.
Source: CHJ de Boer: Factors influencing cultural integration of expats in Thailand. Paper International Research Conference Silpakorn University. Bangkok, 2015.
Nice reasoning with certainly a lot of truth.
As an aside; the song money, money, money is not from Anatevka but is a song from before that time. It was made famous by Wim Sonneveld and sung in the Willem Parelshow.
Song from Anatevka is “If I were a rich man” (“If I were a rich man”)
Money is often the source of disagreement, but is not typical of Thailand with its expats.
Many of the expats would vote for the PVV, please state the source.
If only expats voted!
Thai collectivism will no longer exist in 50 years. A change can already be observed.
Due to the technical development, people are less dependent on each other.
For example in agriculture: scaling up and mechanization.
The source of the election results is IN the posting.
Mr de Boer clearly has problems with freedom of expression and political choice of his compatriots.
If we can't even speak of bias here. Nowadays, people from education are often known for their GL or SP political orientation and I sense that in his epistle. Nothing wrong with that, but respect the choice of others.
It could be that expats in Thailand, among others, have had enough of their neighborhoods in the Netherlands being and are being taken over by people who think differently. That these people, precisely because they live at a greater distance, have a better view of what is currently happening in their homeland, with all those so-called 'confused people'. And express their concerns through their vote during elections.
I agree with you that the culture change must come from within and that we Western people can only give advice. However, having an opinion can't hurt and also standing behind your opinion and keeping your back straight are virtues that everyone should possess. It is not everyone's given, I must observe time and time again. We are guests here and we notice that by the many things that are not alien-minded.
Beaches often make comparisons and are not always possible. There are still many differences and, as you indicate, it will be a long time before they reach in each other's direction. I won't experience it again but that aside, it's not about me after all. A teacher is certainly an example figure and can exert influence, although many factors play a role in the spiritual growth of the Thai population and especially the other (environmental) factors play a greater role. There is always hope and otherwise we have to make do with what is. It transcends us, giving us a series of feelings that are inextricably linked to us. Amazement, disbelief, impotence, irritation, happiness, love, you name it. Life in a nutshell and everyone does their own thing with the associated consequences.
When will we stop with this nonsense about 'being a guest' in Thailand??
Which guest comes and never leaves? An odd guest.
Which guest buys a condo, house, car, other goods in the country where he is a guest? An odd guest.
Which guest marries a woman from the host country without a long courtship? An odd guest.
Which guest pays all his bills himself and sometimes also those of in-laws and friends? An odd guest.
Which guest even works and pays taxes in the host country? An odd guest.
An expat who lives and lives in Thailand is no more a guest than a Thai woman who lives and lives with her husband in the Netherlands or Belgium.
Completely agree with you! How often do you hear people say when an opinion is expressed 'yes, but we are guests here, this country belongs to the Thai', what is it that you are not 'allowed' to have an opinion about the ins and outs in Thailand, should the Thai living in the Netherlands also be banned from having an opinion about the Netherlands? Keep your mouth shut because you are a guest here, never heard a compatriot say that…
That things cannot be changed in both countries just like that, that is something else, everything in its own time.
Indeed, the "collectivism" of the Thais is unfortunately little more than a family collectivism. Or one should start thinking about uniformed students and flag display. Certainly in the agricultural sector, some real collectivism might do wonders. Coöperaties eg. Not every family buys a much too expensive tractor, but buys a tractor together. Rental of all kinds of tools and tools through a cooperative. Joint purchasing of seeds, pesticides, etc. Even a car could be jointly purchased. At least the thing is not months ahead because there is no money for gas. The family collectivism pointed out by the author is something that can be found in all developing countries. The family is a bastion against a hostile outside world and an unreliable government. A completely different collectivism than ours, which once urged us to drain polders and to create a polder consultation structure.
I think that the cultural shift, as they call it, will start to look more like a cultural shift.
If I already see the current generation of young people, they have been busy for a long time to Westernize themselves.
Thailand is no longer the Thailand it once was.
Just the fact that you always read that the Thai always take care of their parents when they are old and do not hide away in old people's homes like in the west.
What I regularly hear from my spouse is that some old people are also left to fend for themselves here.
Cell phones, motorbikes, cars, fashionable clothing, hairstyles and fancy, sturdy sunglasses and all those other Western luxuries, which often include a sky-high debt burden.
Are here also more regular than an exception.
And that was once in the past of Thailand different.
Jan Beute.
janbeute,
It is indeed a myth that all Thais take such good care of their parents. I know countless elderly people who are neglected, often simply because there are no children or the children are also struggling financially.
It is also a myth that old people in the 'west' are put in old people's homes. 85 percent of all people over 80 live at home, half without help, the other half with some or (rarely) quite a lot of professional help.
One can also wonder whether the author does not reason a little from a Western sense of superiority. Me too maybe? So us? “Not what they should think, but that they should think independently and freely. I am fine with it. But she? Maybe they think very differently about it. Their right, right? Typical Western values that will take everyone in the world to Valhalla. Possibly, but Singapore is doing well, so is China. Japanese? Would they all
do good thanks to that independent and free thinking or would it perhaps also work without it?
Apparently, about 90% of my students don't want to think independently either, I write in a Dec posting.
I think the named countries are doing so well because there are more and more people (entrepreneurs) who think independently and are allowed to do so. A Jack Ma would have been unthinkable 40 years ago in China…or be in prison.
Dear Chris,
In the piece "money" you hit the nail on the head with the sentence that they are not used to seeing it with equivalent family or villagers.
That equality is very important in a relationship whether it concerns money, age or other matters within the relationship.
So I just throw the bat in the coop.
Perhaps most expats do not have an equal but a purchased relationship?
The rest of your argument is actually the result of whether or not they are equivalent.
I actually only see one downside mentioned in the story, the negative impact of money on (the environment of) the poor Thai…
Following this line of reasoning, the poor Thai should also not be allowed to participate in the lotteries.
That arouses envy and causes many problems.
In the Netherlands and Belgium, too, not everyone has the same views and mutual agreement must also be reached.
That the differences between 'us' and 'the Thai' are bigger, yes, that's for sure.
I don't think that's a downside, but normal and an opportunity to grow.
I also write about other ideas and interference or did you miss that?
Not much escapes me, that's a bit the nature of the beast 😉
For example, I also read: “Meddling in business is allowed by me; perhaps I must.”
If it has to be, in other words it is necessary, then that is not a downside, is it?
It's about how, so not pushy or arrogant.
The same goes for giving money and coming up with ideas. That's what I do too. I just want to emphasize that there are not only good sides to it, but that we should perhaps take more account of the less good sides.
I have been living in Thailand for most of the year for 15 years and enjoy it very much, but I am annoyed by the political climate that will remain a dictatorship for the time being.
Moreover, the country has been sold to the multinationals and large companies, which is clearly deduced from the huge billboards, billboards, videos of all sizes that claim and pollute the public space.
For example, if you drive from Suvanabumi airport to the city by taxi, you have trouble seeing anything of the airspace between all those monstrously large billboards and that's how it is in all cities of the country.
It is also a symptom of the harsh capitalism of Thailand, which, along with Russia and India, is one of the countries in the world with the greatest income disparities, antisocial towards the elderly, the disabled and the unemployed, and heartless towards illegal immigrants and refugees.
And many Thai employers are very 'kiniaw', paying even less than minimum wage.
And then for me it remains about the friendliness of the people, the charm and beauty of Thai women, the wonderful climate, the Thai cuisine and as a city person I love Chiangmai and Bangkok and life despite all the price increases remains a lot cheaper than in the low lands.
Agree Niek. The inequality, the restriction of freedom & democracy, the denial of justice; they bring me sorrow.
Although I'm not a city person and the gentlemen will probably also have their charms... but I don't pay attention to that.
It is also the culture of the Thai who, unlike other Asian countries where prosperity and economy have taken a clear leap, are forced by the system to make that leap.
That starts with all kinds of things, but education is the core of it. Eraducate poverty through education is an often used statement, but not here… too much sabai sabai
Everyone is happy with the low tax rates here, but people don't understand that that is precisely the basis of not being able to join the Japan, Korea, Malaysia and Singapore's of the region. And the Philippines are coming (again). If no funds are created then there is no money for such things, apart from strange priorities of the various governments and the corrupt society.
Schrijver is right in his analysis of money. We as the 'richer partners' should neutralize our wealth, but yes as a human being you are inclined to show what you have, but it is not a good idea to do that among the poor. Breeds all sorts of things including aversion and jealousy the biggest and then it often goes wrong.
The mentioned 6 year period is also not so strange for integration, it is a turning point. It is not for nothing that working expats receive contracts for 3-5 years from their foreign employers when they are posted, that is a bit of the period in which you either settle or choose another location…
All in all, Thailand is a third world country and we come from a first world country, historically but also on the more important issues. You can't compare us to them or vice versa and that's exactly why I live here, it's wonderfully different from the West…
Many thanks for sharing your experience & findings.
It really pays to reread it all several times!
Thanks again.
What strikes me is that you do not explicitly mention the great importance of language knowledge.
Surely that is " the key " to mutual understanding & integration ( although I have to add to my great frustration that I do not get much of it ... so difficult for a poor language novice like me ! )
Dear Chris,
A sensible piece of yours, of course, but I can't help but make some comments. First of all, your comment that you find “After all, we also pay for it” a bit strange reasoning. Because Dutch people in Thailand often do not receive state benefits, while relatively many Muslims in the Netherlands do use a Dutch benefit. The fact that you can't always blame them for that is a separate issue (during my last visit to NL, for example, I saw three Moroccan young people run a fish shop in a competent and customer-friendly manner and there are of course many more examples). So it was not such a strange reasoning of the farang after all.
Furthermore, you are (again) somewhat derogatory about the PVV voter. Why? Moreover, there is now an alternative in the form of Forum for Democracy and that alternative has already surpassed the PVV in the polls. Many former PVV voters were apparently not very pleased with Wilders' tone, but they did like many of his ideas. And the basis of those ideas wasn't so bad: taking in foreigners too quickly and too much who are not adapted to our working conditions and culture causes problems. And moreover, it costs a lot of money, while the Netherlands just before the next recession and thanks to the artificially low interest rates, the national debt was only just below 60%. The Netherlands is not that rich at all; this is evident, for example, from a report by the Deutsche Bank. They expect Germany's public debt to rise to close to 2050% by 150 (Government Debt to GDP forecasts). This will not be much different for the Netherlands. And what if everything does not go as expected, for example paying extra to Italy's debts? And now – possibly rightly so – we will also accelerate the closing of the gas tap in Groningen. Choices will have to be made and with these prospects it is better not to let GroenLinks or the PvdA make those choices.
Dear Hans,
The Netherlands has a surplus on the state budget of 7.6 billion euros this year. So the national debt is not too bad, it is now less.
Dear Mr. Tino .
I am not an economist, but I once took a biennial evening school course in the past to be able to run a garage business.
A surplus on an annual or monthly budget does not mean that things are going well with your total debt of your company, here called the Dutch government.
Jan Beute.
The total debt decreases so the burden decreases; future obligations to repay and the interest costs on those debts also decrease. And in addition, you have inflation, which causes the outstanding debts to decrease in value, so also an effective decrease. The latter is a favorite, which is why countries in southern Europe prefer high inflation.
Dear Tina,
I am aware that there was a surplus last year, but the future does not look very bright according to the Deutsche Bank and also according to me (but who am I). This gloomy outlook for the future of state finances was also discussed during the staffing talks, but the short term was nevertheless chosen. The central banks in the world are also very gloomy when you look at their measures. Why else does the ECB still have absurdly low interest rates and why is the ECB still buying up government debt? That is certainly not a sign that things are going well. And the fact that the FED is currently reversing policy is an experiment that may cause major problems within a year. Fortunately, Thailand still has a low government debt and no government debts are being bought up. This gives confidence in the Thai economy in the longer term. The downside, of course, is that the euro could well weaken against the baht. But it still looks like coffee grounds.
The national debt of Thailand amounts to 42% of national income, of the Netherlands this is 57%. So that of Thailand is also high in relation to the Netherlands. And the facilities implemented by the government in Thailand are very basic, while those in the Netherlands are high. So you can deduce from that that Thailand is not doing very well at all. In addition, the decrease in the national debt in the Netherlands is unexpected, it is not even possible to plan or look 1 year ahead. So to claim that government debt will rise sharply in the future is just as unlikely as to claim that it will halve.
I would just like to comment on the example of the brother who gave up his job because sister had hooked a falang. I really don't understand what that would have to do with collectivism? I think this has to do with the mentality of the family in question, which is to take advantage of a Westerner as much as possible. And this mentality differs from family to family, in my experience.
I am married here, live here, have some money, but spend it with caution. Wherever I can, I lend a hand. I have never been asked for a Satan! (unless to borrow). I am the only falang in the village and some villagers naturally had all sorts of questions and comments in the beginning: why isn't he building a bigger house? why doesn't he buy a new car? how much does he give to the family's 'mommy'. None of them care and in the long run they accept the situation anyway. But never had a problem in the family itself.
However, in this same village, a stone's throw away, known a case of the exploitation of a young falang, who thought he had a 'girlfriend' here… I don't need to elaborate on this, I think…
People are the same everywhere, you have good ones and you have less good ones. You can even find both species in a hamlet in Isaan. All the rest are generalizations.