The Janus head of Thai tolerance
51-year-old Richard from Singapore likes to visit Thailand with his bisexual friend Li from Malaysia. Because here 'I can be myself'. “We feel welcome every time we are in Thailand. If I had the choice, I would like to be here gay be born.'
So will be more gay tourists think about it, the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT) must have thought when they recently launched the 'Go Thai Be Free' campaign. Come in with your money, because they have it. Gay are not referred to as Dink: dual income, no kids. An American survey in 2011 showed that LGBTs (Lesbians, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender) go on holiday an average of 3,9 times a year.
The travel website lovepattaya.com attracts 500 unique visitors a day and, according to founder Khun May, these are people who can save a few pennies, because they stay in five-star hotels. "They don't have children and have a double budget, so they generally spend more than straight couples."
The law and public opinion are not so liberal
Although Thailand is seen as a paradise for same-sex couples, the law and public opinion are not so liberal. Gays and lesbians cannot get married and Thailand has no partnership registration. But that may be about to change. Early this year, activists began campaigning for a Civil Partnership Bill. They invoke Article 30 of the Constitution, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex.
Via the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC), a proposal ended up with the parliamentary committee on Justice and Human Rights. The proposal has already been discussed and changed five times and hearings have already been held in four regions. When 20 members of parliament sign it, it can go to parliament. That was successful, but the proposal is not yet on the parliamentary agenda because 10.000 signatures from citizens are also required. Unfortunately, the counter is only at 4.000.
'People with a different sexual orientation have always been in a gray area. Society accepts them on some unofficial level, but if they want to legalize it, it's not that easy. Public opinion is not yet in their favour," said NHRC commissioner Tairjing Sirophanich.
Gay en transgender face bullying every day
This applies not only to public opinion, but also to some families. The Foundation for Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Rights and Justice interviewed 868 last year gay, lesbian en transgender in seven provinces. 15 percent of the interviewees said they were not accepted and 8 percent accepted under certain conditions; 13 percent were not allowed to live with their partner. Even more numbers: 14 percent were called names; 2,5 percent had been kicked out of their homes; 1,3 percent were forced to undergo psychological treatment; 2,4 percent had been physically assaulted and 3,3 percent had been assaulted by friends.
Naiyana Supapung, coordinator of the Teeranat Kanjanaauksorn Foundation, says so gay en transgender people in Thailand face harassment every day. She says Thais are conditioned to think that society consists exclusively of men and women. "Many people get frustrated when they see boys acting like girls, girls in boys' clothes, or same-sex sexual relations." Such people, she says, are considered "freaks of nature."
Naiyana tells about a school textbook that warns against people behaving like the opposite sex and at a boy scout camp no one wanted to enter the tent with a gay share boy. A few years ago one tried gay boy to take his own life after being beaten during morning roll call in front of the whole school for acting like a girl.
Naiyana: 'I don't necessarily blame the teachers; they teach what they themselves have learned. But that's not good. That attitude has to change. Invisible violence hurts more than visible violence. Physical violence can be prevented, but invisible violence cannot be prevented. If the heart is wounded, it is difficult to heal.'
LGBT tourists only see the romantic side of Thailand
But tourists don't mind. Jetsada 'Note' Taesombat, coordinator of the Thai Transgender Alliance, is not surprised that LGBT tourists feel at home in Thailand. 'They are here as tourists; they only see the romantic side of our culture and tradition. And of course the locals want their money. Tourists feel more free to show their sexual identity because they do not live here and they are anonymous to some extent. If they worked and lived here, they would understand that there are many things they cannot do.'
Naiyana believes that the focus on pink tourism misses one thing: understanding human rights. 'If we same-sex marriage looking at it only from an economic standpoint only exacerbates the problems because we don't really understand the nature of sexual diversity. If we still think that gay en transgender are different from “normal” people, we don't understand them.'
Anjana Suvarnananda, president of the Anjaree lesbian rights group, recalls an expert statement: Thai society unofficially accepts gay en l and officially rejects them. 'I think it is correct that Thai gay en l superficially, such as the way they behave and dress. But when it comes to important things, they are biased towards them.”
Note adds: 'When people think negatively about gay en transgender people, the law has no meaning to anyone. It is time to review our law, culture and social values to better understand sexual diversity. Partner registration is only the first step towards gender equality.'
(Source: Spectrum, Bangkok Post, September 8, 2013)
I came to Thailand as a volunteer in August and teach English conversation. I have completely different experiences, In Nong Kai we had a summer camp with 40 high school students, 20 girls and 20 boys aged 12-17. Of the boys, 3 were ladyboys. They were assigned to the girls' dormitory and some days they had make-up and nail polish on some days a bra. This was considered completely normal by the group and not a single harassment. I then went to Krabi where I taught at a secondary school, there were also ladyboys who mainly hung out with the girls and were accepted as completely normal. So I don't recognize the discrimination in schools at all. My experience is of course limited, but I have never heard anything negative from other teachers either.
I have been living in Thailand for about 10 years (4 years between Rayon and Bangkok in different places) and the last 6 years in Isaan with my husband (married in the Netherlands though), but I really do not recognize anything in the above story. Nor in other provinces when I visit ( mainly the north and west of Bangkok ) . I can imagine that some Muslims have more problems with homosexuality (by that I mean women and men); just like some Christians , but I have not had any negative experiences with them myself . Since I provide humanitarian medical assistance , I often come into personal contact with people ; Now I can tell you this: if only the Netherlands were like Thailand in everything that has to do with homosexuality. I therefore fully share Peter's opinion. I often visit or deal with schools; also here all freedom for gays; come to school made up? : No problem ! I think the above story has been taken out of context. I can assume that - after 10 years of coming to people's homes - I know something about Thailand and I think many others do. And as for that law that homosexuals can marry; realize that there are only 15 countries in the world where this is actually possible and that Thailand will still be one of the first ( and probably the first Asian country ) to make this possible when everything is in place . Conclusion of a gay: I think it's all far-fetched and unjustified! Point !
I lived for a while in a small village near Udon Thani.
Never noticed any harassment from homos tomboys Kathoys and everything else that is going on in Thailand, I have often been surprised about the tolerance and acceptance by the Thai.
The fact that my 15-year-old girl next door puts on her make-up and visits her (lesbian) friend is apparently seen as no problem at all, not even by the parents.
During parades, kathoys are often placed on the floats.
The only "wan" sound I ever heard of this was from my girlfriend. who let slip that the nicest men are gay or kathoy.
Here in the Market Village of Hua Hin there is a cosmetics stall with two ladyboys, very fancy in black clothes, with beautiful long black hair. My girlfriend sometimes jokes that I like them. That's all.
A ladyboy also lives next to our house, who worked here on the construction of our house. He/She works just like the other men, only you immediately notice how she talks and moves that it is a ladyboy. A very nice katoi, who is also apparently accepted by her colleagues.
I sometimes hear funny comments about a katoi, but I can't say that they are really discriminated against or that they are avoided.
Moreover, if the figures mentioned above are correct, then you can also say: not 14 percent were verbally abused, but 86 percent were not verbally abused, 87 percent can live with their partner, 97,5 percent were NOT kicked out of the house, 98,7 percent did NOT require treatment, 97,6 percent were NOT physically assaulted, and 96,7 percent were NOT assaulted.
What do the numbers look like now? Not bad huh?
I always find it interesting to see how people juggle with numbers. Is there a train disaster or earthquake in overcrowded India, is it written how many were injured or killed, but if you start to give percentages, it would look very different. But that's another theme.
So to come back to the numbers of badly treated gays, lesbians and ladyboys, I personally think that it is not exactly a bad percentage that is treated well.
I do believe that it is not all right when it comes to tolerance for gay and lesbians. But as Sjaak says: turn the numbers around and you get a completely different story.
I work in education with 13-19 year olds. Here, too, you see major differences in terms of acceptance. Native Dutch people are certainly not always as tolerant as we would like to present ourselves abroad. Still, I dare to say that if you are gay, you are not bad luck if you live in the Netherlands or Thailand. But it can certainly be better. We can all contribute to that. I try that in education.
In the village where I live I see quite a lot of transsexual and homosexual young people.
Some at a very young age.
The youngest transsexual boy I know of was only 6 years old when he already knew he didn't want to be a boy.
I have never seen anyone discriminated against because of his or her preference.
Someone is sometimes laughed at, but never maliciously and there is no bullying.
Boys are generally more open about their sexual preference than girls.
But when they get older (about 20+?) it is less open and you don't notice it on the street.
Some also apparently change their preferences later and just get married.
I actually wonder if a lot of those homosexual relationships during childhood may not have anything to do with homosexuality, but that having sex with another boy is just an acceptable way to get your pleasure.
People in Thailand are generally much more intimate.
Families sometimes sleep together in beds or on mattresses next to each other until the children's advanced age (15+).
The boys on Dad's side and the girls on Mom's side.
I think that all those brothers lying together prevent the fear of Western boys to touch each other, which may also make it easier for them to enter into sexual contacts with other boys.
To explain the fear of Western youth, I would like to give an example that in my youth (about 1543, I think) the boys still walked with their arms over each other's shoulders.
Also a form of intimacy.
(But when I was young I also slept 3 men strong in a single bed.)
Not something you see nowadays.
You see guys together, but they don't usually touch each other.
I know that little boy who already knew at 6 years old that he didn't want to be a boy because I know his parents and he was called kathoei because of his girlish behavior and only playing with girls, instead of other boys.
That kathoei therefore seems to be more of a conclusion than an assumption.
Now I'm not a psychologist, so I don't know if this is enough to qualify him as a cathoo.
On the other hand, sexual preference is determined not only by heredity, but also by environment.
Someone is born somewhere on the scale that runs from preference for men or preference for women, but can shift from that point towards men or towards women depending on the environment.
So in the end it probably doesn't matter much to what extent that qualification transvestite is correct or not.
He probably started at least on the transvestite side.
And if he himself feels happy about it.
And that is still the case.
The youth in the village [isaan] is familiar with the concept of gay.
Gay is used for homosexual and tut for transvestite.
They also make a clear distinction between the two.
What is possible is that the term gay does not have the same meaning here as in the Netherlands.
Language is always a difficult point in communication.
The same words in another country do not always mean the same thing.
Possibly it just means boys who have sex with each other for pleasure and not so much boys who are homosexual.
I should inquire about that.
I get the impression from the comments that as a gay person I know less than the average ( Dutch ) straight person . The (pre)judgments are very bad for some writers. Is thinking too difficult sometimes and then one just flees in comments such as males and females etc. etc. ; never known ! I am male and so is my boyfriend. What is written is no more Thai than in the Netherlands . Only everything is a bit easier than in the Netherlands and people can express themselves more than in the Netherlands; especially if you live in strictly religious places in the Netherlands. Heterosexuals earning money from gays is also the most common thing in the Netherlands; only it goes secretly in the Netherlands as much goes secretly of what is described above. So once again: I am glad that people are more open here than in the Netherlands and hope that gay marriage will soon come through in Thailand. It has important legal consequences for the people themselves and they are in dire need of that. And write about things you really know; it makes things clearer. Incidentally, the word gay is very common among gays in Thailand; at least where I live and in the far vicinity ( Khon Kaen ) . I don't see Travastites anywhere at Thai; well with farangs; yes queens. The difference is : a transvestite is clearly a disguised man and a queen is an ( almost ) unrecognizable man ( also called a ladyboy ) . So someone with a mustache and/or beard and hairy legs is a transvestite and a queen is someone who you only find out that it is a man when he is actually naked; When he has his panties on, you can often not see it because the penis has been "hidden".
The transvestite has 'a bulge'! Clearer like that?
Moderator: removed a somewhat too explicit sentence.
Sir Paul , as far as I can tell I have not mentioned anyone specifically by name nor suggested anything to anyone – including you. But if the shoe fits, wear it. In the hospital we used the word Queen as I more or less describe it and I also knew it (among other things. ) in the gay world . Been here for 10 years now, it is possible that people there (in the Netherlands) are now looking at the word Queen differently. Although I have had contact about this from Amsterdam today and gave me the same explanation as I wrote it. I want to leave it at that to avoid ending up in an endless discussion .
Moderator: Please end the chat session.
I have been working at a university in Thailand for 7 years now and there are homosexual boys and girls in all grades. The number of lesbian girls is higher, but the number of female students is also higher. There is absolutely no evidence of discrimination in the classrooms. I do know of 1 case where a ladyboy's request to come to school as a girl (in the uniform of a female student) was rejected by the university. On party evenings (eg at the farewell of the 4th year) the ladyboys are recognizable as ladyboys.
At the Christian university in the Netherlands where I used to work, people certainly had more trouble with homosexuals. I'm pretty sure ladyboys wouldn't be tolerated.
Mature relationships are there, but not really visible.
This does not necessarily mean that these relationships are not accepted.
The Thai are very accepting.
It is true that Thai people generally prefer not to differ too much from the rest of the people.
This also means that if two people of the same sex have a relationship, they will not expressly make this known to society.
These are, incidentally, the experiences within a village community.
When you come to Pattaya, the experience will probably be very different.
But yes, can you still take Pattaya as an example of a Thai community?
The environment is artificial and strongly focused on sex, because that's where the income comes from.
Moreover, a large percentage of the people living in Pattaya are probably no longer of Thai origin.
Especially if you count the tourists.
The behavior of the Thai will therefore be strongly adapted.
A sister-in-law has 2 sons, twins, 42 years old, both gay. They can't find a serious relationship their own age. One leaves it at that, the other has all kinds of casual friendships. They both live with mother. Going out and looking is starting to bore them.