ABN AMRO no longer wants to bank for 15.000 people who live outside Europe. The widespread opinion, once expressed by the VVD in the second chamber, and also the ground on which Kifid has ruled against me, is that ABN AMRO has no licenses to bank outside Europe.
I have been in discussions with ABN AMRO about canceling my account for 2 years. Strangely enough, in all correspondence, ABN AMRO has never literally said that it has no licenses. Sentences such as: … if a bank does not have a license for this, it is not allowed to offer banking services. However, that is different from saying that you do not have a permit.
The only time the bank has indicated that the bank does not have any licenses, it has happened by sending me a statement from the Kifid, which states that the bank does not have any licenses to bank outside Europe (a major mistake by ABN AMRO seems to me if it turns out that she does have permits, because then she has committed fraud).
Mind you, here too the bank does not say that it does not have permits, but refers to the Kifid, which states this emphatically. However, without showing this.
There are also strong indications that the bank DOES have licenses to bank outside Europe, and that the bank and Kifid are colluding to cover this up.
I conclude that collusion from the fact that Kifid completely ignores my arguments that ABN AMRO does indeed seem to have permits. In addition, my questions to ABN AMRO, which went through Kifid, were constantly weakened during the complaints procedure. A request for my file then became a request to ABN AMRO to pass on the important points from my file, whereby ABN AMRO could of course decide for itself what was important. A request for telephone notes was not granted, but Kifid did nothing with it either.
Furthermore, the case file was selectively searched for the verdict.
The Kifid did have a nice reasoning:
ABN AMRO does not have a license – ABN AMRO Mees Pierson is a trade name of ABN AMRO, so simply ABN AMRO – ABN AMRO Mees Pierson therefore does not have a license to bank outside Europe.
The Kifid did not comment on how ABN AMRO Mees Pierson – without permits – can offer worldwide banking (if you have at least one million euros in your account).
How ABN AMRO can continue to bank for expats temporarily – for a few years – even without permits, is also not mentioned in the ruling.————————————————————— —————————————————–
Copy text ABN AMRO 3-01-2019.
International Client Retail
The world is changing. Boundaries are blurring and regulators are setting stricter requirements. Worry about
financial fraud, money laundering and terrorist financing are on the rise. Various developments
request the adjustment of our policies for the acceptance and operation of our international
customers (International Clients). So that we can limit risks and the forces can
to continue to serve our international customers well in a way that suits them.
Therefore, all customers who are Non-Residents (A natural person with a
official address abroad.) operated from the International Client Retail department. Also the
client accounts until the time of termination. The bank has granted a deferral to the client
no later than 1 April 2019, banking affairs can be transferred elsewhere.
expats
The bank can make an exception for customers who fall under the definition of an Expat.
A customer falls under the definition of Expat if the following characteristics are met:
• It is possible to join a statement from the employer, voluntary organisation, good
purpose, university, church or other organization that shows that the Expat is temporarily in
lives abroad on behalf of the (legal) person issuing the statement.
• The person does not have a place of residence or residence in one of the sanctioned countries
Expats always have a temporary character. Expats come back to the Netherlands or
are temporarily placed in another country within or outside Europe. Expats usually have
also a house and address in the Netherlands. It is often very important for Expats to have a Dutch
to take into account. It is then decided on the basis of a weighing of interests whether or not a
make an exception for the relevant Expat.
How can a bank make an exception if it does not have a license to bank outside Europe?
—————————————————————————————————————————-
My request to ABN AMRO at the start of the procedure was to help me switch to another Dutch bank. But ABN AMRO was not in the mood for that. I just had to cancel my account myself and figure it out on my own. The intention of canceling the contract yourself will undoubtedly have been that someone who cancels the contract himself would not have been evicted by the bank. Only, you cannot get a new bank account from abroad, for that you first have to go to the Netherlands.
Assuming that my conclusion that ABN AMRO does indeed have licenses is justified, there are 3 important further conclusions:
- The second chamber was incorrectly informed by the VVD about having permits.
- 15.000 ABN AMRO customers have been fired on the basis of lies.
- It seems that ABN AMRO and Kifid are working together and that Kifid is not independent but works for the interests of the bank(s).
I admit that this is how I view the matter, and after two years of discussion with the bank my view has undoubtedly colored somewhat.
Submitted by Ruud
In my opinion, although I have never been a customer of ABN-AMRO, it was always THE bank for Dutch people who wanted to do business in and with abroad……….
Yes, but business customers, they can earn from that. Private accounts is much less interesting.
https://www.abnamro.nl/nl/privatebanking/over-private-banking/voor-wie/international-private-banking.html
https://www.abnamro.com/nl/carriere/internationaal/index.html
https://www.abnamro.com/en/about-abnamro/products-and-services/international/index.html
https://www.bankenvergelijking.nl/blog/kun-je-een-nederlandse-bankrekening-openen-als-je-in-het-buitenland-woont/
In the URLs indicated, the click-through rules do not mention the “ordinary private customer” anywhere. Mainly business customers, including diamonds, etc. The only addition is “private banking”. It's the first report. But these are the people who earn a lot of money because they manage larger assets for them, where they earn a lot of money.
Just go by the rule that a bank is simply a business where the costs must be paid by those who incur the costs. So the customers. Ordinary foreign accounts with some debits and credits simply do not yield enough to cover the extra work caused by current legislation. Just a simple principle, no talk about social tasks or the like. Costs higher than benefits than no bank account.
That not earning enough will undoubtedly be the reason that customers have to leave with less than a million euros in the account.
But then the bank should just say so, and not send a statement from the kifid stating that the bank does not have a license.
And then she has to correct a spokesperson for the VVD in the House of Representatives when he says that the bank does not have a permit, because the bank knows that both things are not true.
An interesting point here is, of course, the question of who made the VVD and the kifid believe – if they themselves believe that – that the bank does not have a licence.
That information must have come from somewhere.
If the kifid knows that there is a license – and the fact that they completely ignore my arguments that the bank does have licenses in the ruling strongly indicates that – it is committing deceit towards the complainant and the kifid has to be kicked out .
If the kifid really doesn't know this, someone must have told them that there are no permits.
The most obvious candidate for this is ABNAMRO.
This means that ABNAMRO committed fraud in the complaints procedures.
Actually, I do not understand why ABNAMRO has incurred this misery.
You talk about 15.000 customers; had simply placed them with private banking as a dying group, where they could have told new emigrants to look for another bank as long as they were still in the Netherlands.
This has been giving them misery and bad publicity for two years now.
I will probably try to approach politics and the newspapers after this.
And I may put the complete file on the internet, although I don't know how to do that yet.
Following on from this post.
When ABNAMRObank informed me that they wanted to get rid of me as a customer, after 50 years, of which 25 outside Europe, I noticed that expats could stay and that I was asked to close my account myself.
I took it that the bank could not or did not want to do this itself. I didn't – nobody digs their own grave after all. I invariably “enjoy” the banking service. I expect a more cunning approach to get rid of me and many others in due course.
Never closed the account, sent a letter that I would like to cancel the account if my share in saving the bank is refunded.
Gr. Jan.
I have been living permanently in Thailand for a long time.. My ABN internet account still works excellently..
This is because my account has that of my brother in Holland as my home address..
But he does not receive any correspondence from the ABN for me because everything comes through the internet account..
It does not seem that ABN AMRO believes that it has a facilitating duty towards the citizen whose tax money saved this bank. The tax money of foreign account holders was also used for this. Humility has already made way for the usual arrogance.
ABN Amro simply does not want private customers outside the Netherlands. Too much red tape. It is a strategic choice and has nothing to do with permits.
In addition, the bank can terminate the relationship with a customer at any time.
What is really important is the deceit by the ABNAMRO and the appearance that the kifid is not independent, but works for the interests of the bank.
That in itself is not surprising, of course, for an organization founded and paid for by banks, without input from consumer organizations.
The government should change that.
Furthermore, the bank can indeed close my account, but it has never officially initiated the Article 35 procedure.
The first letter states that I must cancel my account myself, so she has not activated Article 35 to cancel my account myself.
Only far into the proceedings was reference made to Article 35, first indirectly and later increasingly more emphatically.
But in my opinion it has still not been officially initiated (this is an official procedure, with an explanation why the account is being terminated. The fact that all that information is already in the complaints procedure is irrelevant) even though it says kifid that the ABNAMRO may close my account.
The kifid should have said that ABNAMRO can cancel my account, with Article 35.
I already have another account, so that in itself is not a problem.
Sorry it must be outside Europe.
I think the wrong question is being asked here. The question is not whether or not ABN Amro has a license to bank outside Europe, but the question is whether the banking license that ABN Amro has (still) extends to providing services to customers abroad.
A banking license is related to raising funds from the public. ABN Amro does this in the Netherlands – and on the basis of a European permit 'passport', ABN Amro is also allowed to apply for the permit in other EU countries. As far as I know, ABN Amro does not have a banking license in Thailand and therefore does not attract funds from Thai customers.
Much stricter Know Your Client requirements now apply to attracting funds in the Netherlands to combat money laundering and terrorist financing, anchored in new regulations. I think this is the reasoning used by ABN Amro, not so much whether or not it has a licence.
I understand that you will not get your bill back with this. Especially after the ING affair, the regulator is forcing banks to map out their customers better (a copy of a passport is no longer sufficient) and that is at the expense of Dutch people abroad.
If a bank – for example in Thailand – can provide expatriate banking, it must have a license to offer banking services in Thailand.
Without that permit, she cannot possibly offer those services.
Expats are also served on the basis of ABN Amro's Dutch banking license. Apparently a smaller KYC risk for ABN Amro than for other customers abroad. It therefore depends on the perceived risk, not on whether or not ABN Amro has a banking license.
The ABN AMRO Group has a limited presence in a few European countries and beyond in Australia, Brazil and China. This is usually related to a few large projects in those countries.
The bank used to have a banking license in Thailand, but that license has been transferred to a Thai bank
The ABNAMRO never says that it does not have a license to bank in Thailand.
In fact, she talks about living abroad (not living in Europe, and within Europe you don't need a million euros for an account) and global banking.
Why wouldn't the bank say 1 time in a two-year procedure "what are you nagging, we HAVE no license."
The only thing they did once was send a statement from the kifid stating that the bank does not have a license.
I myself assume that this was a stupid mistake on the part of the bank, because sending a misleading article is also fraud.
Where the kifid got its information from, that the ABNAMRO would not have a license is unknown.
Incidentally, it seems unlikely to me that ABNAMRO can transfer its license to another bank.
I can assume that every bank will have to qualify itself to be allowed to bank worldwide, but it probably concerns a license within Thailand, because what does a Thai bank have to do with a license from a Dutch bank to be allowed to bank in Thailand?
A license from the Thai central bank seems more obvious to me.
Incidentally, it may be clear that ABNAMRO has been banking for me worldwide for 2 years now since her request to leave.
How can she do this without a permit?
The kifid sucks club. I once filed a lawsuit against the rabo.
It was about the bank's duty of care towards its customers
Never heard from again.
The kifid is ultimately paid by the banks so whose bread one eats whose mouth one speaks.
Just independent.
Ben
The duty of care was part of my complaint, namely the duty of care at the time the bank told me I had to leave.
Only you cannot open another account from Thailand.
The request to ABNAMRO to help me switch to another bank was not accepted.
The kifid rejected the complaint by referring to a later time, when I had already been to the Netherlands and could have opened a new account.
However, that was not what the complaint was about, it was about canceling my account when I did NOT have another account.
The verdict gives a clear picture of the procedure: The ABNAMRO advances and the kifid shoots in.
This will probably not be different in other procedures.
The hard truth is that ABN Amro has descended into a second-rate provincial bank branch with incompetent staff. Loyalty to people who have been customers of the bank for decades is unknown. The argument of not having a permit is nonsense, they just want to get rid of private customers, supposedly because of the extra administrative hassle.
The ABN/AMRO lies and cheats to the bank's convenience. Need a license to do internet banking from Thailand? A high-level discussion with the Bank of Thailand shows that no license is required for internet banking from Thailand. But does KIFID care about the facts?