Nelson Mandela said: “When you talk to someone in a foreign language, your words go to his mind. When you talk to someone in their own language, your words go to their heart.
You don't need a talent for languages to learn a language and your age hardly matters. What you do need is perseverance, curiosity and a certain lack of fear of failure. If your environment notices that you are serious, they will help you, don't give up too easily.
á high tone; à low tone; â descending tone; ǎ rising tone; a midtone. A colon after a vowel means a really long vowel.
Keep on asking- You learn the most by asking during dinner, a walk, grocery shopping, or a car ride: that what 'Nán (níe:) arai ?' "What is that (this)?" or that call that what 'Nán rîeak wâa arai?' "What's that called?" or พูด ( ask ) this Stylist ใหน 'Phôe:t (thǎam) níe baep nǎi ' 'How do you say (ask) this?' Always repeat the answer aloud several times so that you can check with a Thai whether you pronounce it correctly.
Get a teacher for 2-4 hours a week for a while
I am in favor of first being able to have a reasonably short conversation with sentences of say 4-6 words and only then (after a few months) really start with the writing, which then promotes learning the language. In the beginning it is better if you take a teacher for 2-4 hours a week, costs only around 250 baht per hour, but it is not necessary if you live in a Thai environment. In addition, you have to spend some time with the language yourself every day, otherwise you can forget it.
I recommend the book 'David Smyth, Thai, An Essential Grammar, Routlege, 2010', with an excellent explanation of pronunciation and grammar, illustrated with short practical sentences. Better yet this book: 'The Thai Language. Grammar, spelling and pronunciation, David Smyth, translation and editing by Ronald Schütte, already in its third edition. Especially good for correct and understandable phonetics and pronunciation. Also buy some booklets that they use here in kindergarten for practice.
A good website is: www.thai-language.com , with spoken examples. The two dictionaries of van Moergestel are highly recommended. English-Thai and Thai-English are of course also possible. But 80 percent of what you learn you have to do yourself in your daily life.
Show, show and show again…..
Thai is a tonal language, we now know that. Each syllable has its own tone, is inextricably linked to it and ultimately determines the meaning of the words. The right tones are essential for a good understanding of a Thai word. If you learn a word, you must immediately learn the corresponding tone(s), later you will not get around to it. I know a lot of people who say: 'The tones are too difficult, I'll learn them later'. Then that never happens.
I went with my son for a cup of coffee in a cafe near the Thâa Phae gate in Chiang Mai. I said: 'Aow kèek nèung chin dôeay ná khráp' 'I would also like a slice of cake'. The waitress didn't understand me and I couldn't understand why she didn't understand. 'looked' is 'looked', isn't it? Then my son shouted 'look' in a high pitched tone and she understood immediately. I said "looked" in a low tone.
Five tones-There are 5 tones: middle a, high á, low à, falling â and rising ǎ. It's easier than it seems. Dutch also has tones, but we use them to convey emotions (surprise, anger, annoyance, emphasis) and in the Thai language, the tone determines the meaning of the word. When I get emotional all my Thai tones fly out the window. That's why Thais are such cool frogs, otherwise nobody understands them.
Flat mid-high-low toneStart practicing in Dutch. Very flatly say the phrase "Thai is an easy and fun language" at your medium pitch without going up or down. Does it sound monotonous and boring? Then it will be alright. Do the same, but now a little higher, flat again, exaggerate, that will be fine later. Do you sound like a katheuy? Fine. Now a tone lower than that middle tone, again very flat, like a real man talks.
Falling and rising toneTake the word 'no' for the falling and rising tone. 'I'm not saying yes! but no!!' The descending or also emphasis tone. And the rising tone is obviously a questioning tone: "Oh no?"
Rice, white, the news-When you master that, practice with the Thai word 'khaaw'. Falling Tone: rice khaaw 'rice'; rising tone: ขาว khǎaw 'white' and low tone News khàaw '(the) news'. Put something white on the table, some rice, next to the television. Say one of the three words and have a Thai point out what you mean when you pronounce 'khaaw' on one of the three tones. This gave me a few nice days.
Garment, tiger, mat-Do the same with เสี้อ 'sûua': descending tone: 'garment, shirt'; rising tone: เสีอ 'tiger' and low tone: เสี่อ'mat' (on which you sit and eat). Also do this with sky 'fáa', high tone, then someone has to point into the air and eye 'taa', mean tone, then someone points to his eye or to grandpa, if he is nearby.
Say the following sentence, all syllables are on a mean tone: people นา go นา do งาน ใน นา 'chaawnaa pai naa tham ngaan nai naa' or 'The farmers go to the rice fields to work'. It should sound very flat and monotonous. The high and low tone are also pronounced almost as flat, although at a different pitch.
Then practice with the following words:
midtone: มา 'maa' to come; นา 'naa' (rice) field ; eye 'taa' grandpa (mother's side), eye; kettle 'kaa' crow; move 'yay' grandma (mother's side)
high pitch: horse 'máa' horse; slow 'cháa' slowly; sky 'fáa' air, sky; trade buying and selling 'khaa'
low tone: forest 'pàa' forest; tell offto scold 'dàa'; shoulder 'baa' shoulder; dissect 'phàa' (to) cut open, cleave
descending tone: five 'hâa' five (555 is laughing); hunt 'lâa' to hunt; aunt 'pâa' older aunt; crazy 'baa' crazy; ผ้า 'phaa' garment
rising tone: dog'mǎa' dog; หนา 'nǎa' thick (of objects); look for 'hǎa' (to) look for someone; ฝา 'fǎa' lid, valve
Make short sentences, exaggerate the tone and the long -aa-, practice while a Thai listens and corrects:
horse ️ slow 'máa maa cháa The horse comes slowly
eye hunt dog 'taa lâa mǎa Grandpa hunts dogs
dog look for horse 'mǎa hǎa máa The dog is looking for the horse.
eye crazy ️ slow 'taa bâa maa cháa Crazy grandpa is slowly coming
move look for aunt 'jaai hǎa pâa Granny is looking for aunt
etc etc.
A foreigner enters a travel agency and asks the desk clerk: You Sell one silk Yes 'Khoen khǎai toea mái khráp ?' He wanted to say, "Do you sell tickets?" He gets a blow to the head for his effort. He said the word one 'toea' 'ticket' in a flat, mid tone, that is 'body, body' and not in a rising tone, that is ตั๋ว 'tǒea' 'card'. So he said, "Are you selling your body?"
Vowels are also very important
After the tones the vowels are very important, just the opposite as in Dutch where the consonants matter more.
The distinction between a short and a long vowel is the most important. Compare the 'ie' in 'cane' and 'beer', and that last 'ie' is even longer in Thai. 'Book' and burp', 'bite' and 'bear', 'paw' and 'hear'. The Thais are wise enough to use two different characters for the long and short 'oe' 'ie' etc., eg อุ and อู , resp. short and long 'oo'. (the 'อ' is an auxiliary sign, see what dangles at the bottom, that's the 'oo'. With the ie: and the oe: the colon points to a long vowel). A few examples:
water 'name' water; lead 'took' to lead, lead; table 'to' table; grown up 'too' big; ติ 'tie' (short) to criticize, scold; hit 'tie:' (long) hit พุทธ 'phóet' (short), the Buddha; พูด 'phôe:t' (long) talk
I had the most trouble with the 'อื' sound as in 'muu' 'hand'. It sounds something like a 'uu' but not with a pointy mouth but with a broad smile. You should definitely practice the vowels with a Thai.
Consonants are very similar to English - with exceptions
Those are the easiest, they are very similar to the consonants in Dutch, with the following exceptions. Incidentally, Thais don't like two consonants stuck together (only occurs at the beginning of a word). In everyday usage, 'plaa' 'fish' is usually 'paa'; 'pràtoe:' 'door' becomes 'patoe' and 'khrai' 'who' becomes 'khai'. Try getting a Thai to say 'strongest'.
The final sounds -tpk- are very soft, almost inaudible. The ending 'k' sounds like the 'b' in the English 'big', the ending 't' sounds like a 'd' ( say 'don't!' the 't' in 'not' is pronounced like the 'd' following it). And the ending "p" sounds more like a "b."
The initial sounds –tpk- and th-ph-kh. In Thai there is an important distinction between an aspirated -tpk- (usually written as -th-ph-kh-resp.) and the unaspirated -tpk-, a difference that is not very common in Dutch and English. Put a hand or a lit lighter over your mouth and say t, p, and k. You hardly feel any escaping air and the flame should remain burning. Say a th, ph and kh and you will feel a blast of air and the flame will go out. Here too, although less than for the tones, if you cannot make this distinction, you are difficult to understand. When you start practicing this with your family around, the fun is indescribable, I guarantee it. In Thai script (I omit some (very) rare characters):
unaspirated: -t- : ต ; -p-: ป ; -k- : g
aspirated: -th-: ท ธ ถ -ph- : พ ผ ภ -kh-: ค ฆ ข
Example words:
eye 'taa' eye; posture 'thâa (d) harbour, jetty hit 'tie:' to hit'; ที่'thîe: place, space, at, in
forest'páa' forest; ผ้า phaa garment crab'poe:' crab or Yingluck; person 'phôe:' person
nine 'kâaw nine; rice 'khaaw rice kettle 'kaa' crow ('kaa,kaa'); kill 'khaa' to kill, to kill
You have to practice all this often, for weeks, until it goes flawlessly. Then move on. This is the basis of a good pronunciation. When you're done, this sentence shouldn't be a problem anymore:
wood ใหม่ Not ไหม้ ( ไ en Why is 'ai' or 'ai' ; ม is the 'm' sound) or 'Máai mài mâi mâi ', resp. new wood does not burn), 'New wood does not burn'.
If you want to light an oven with a new piece of wood, which of course fails, and you shake your head and say this sentence to your girlfriend, and she nods her head laughing, then you have passed.
Thanks Tino, for the above article. Indeed, the book you mentioned, in the translation of Ronald Schütte, is a very good basis for learning the language. Now that I have some basic knowledge, I also feel the need for a teacher to work with on the language. Initially I thought I could ignore reading/writing, but I have also come to realize that at some point it will be necessary to develop the knowledge, as you also write.
Apart from those tones, I think the level of difficulty of the language is actually not too bad. In my opinion, the structure/grammar is much simpler than that of the Dutch, English, or the French and German languages. I suspect that it is much more difficult for a Thai to learn English than for a Dutch person to learn Thai.
Sorry but Thai is a very difficult language for me. When they speak I can't even hear the difference in pitches let alone be able to pronounce them. I've been living here for 12 years now and I already understand a lot of what they say and the Thai people who know me understand my gibberish too. Fortunately, in my in-laws' village they speak Khmer. That is much easier to learn and their way of speaking is very similar to my Flemish dialect. And by the way, if you are talking about a certain subject and you use the wrong pitch in Thai, they will understand you. If they want anyway. At least that's my experience.
Carl you are not alone. I spend a lot of time in Uttaradit 8 months Thailand. Of which 5 months Uttaradit, 2 months Jomtien and 1 month traveling. I am on a minor ban or job (from belanda) and have a pronunciation like a laotian. The words here also often mean something completely different than in Bangkok.
Just like German compared to Dutch
A little about that age. Too old to learn another foreign language. The article below (and there are more) combats this. They do say this:
You can become a perfectly fluent speaker of a foreign language at any age, and small imperfections of grammar or accent often just add to the charm.
https://theconversation.com/youre-never-too-old-to-become-fluent-in-a-foreign-language-96293
Good morning, dear Thailand connoisseurs.
I hope someday to be able to write a piece about the Thai language in which I don't make any mistakes. I know, but I'm wrong in writing. So here:
ป่า'páa' forest. Here it is with a high tone, but it must be a low tone, so pàa. Typo 🙂
I go to the teacher Thai for 2 hours every week for almost 4 years now. In the last year we started writing which makes it more fun to understand how pathetic the language is. Reading on the street, the food shop is also slowly starting…always full of surprises. What is most striking is that when I speak Thai, the Thai itself is surprised that the farang speaks perfectly Thai. I try to use the tonation very clearly and as well as possible.
But sometimes things go wrong….I speak too 'ready'. The clear R statements are not common to many and I also have to bend to the L statement.
At first my wife was totally against me learning Thai, the reason was not only that it would make it easier for me to connect with other women (which I do) but that the farang is viewed by the family as a worse person… khon mai dee. Just because then I start to understand and learn the Thai customs and lifestyles….butterflying, kiks. Mea noi etc.
I know too much. Farang roo make.
But communicating needs to be practiced and it works best with a pint and in good company!
Besides the tones, the classifiers and the hierarchy are probably the most difficult for the Dutch.
Rob, that clear R pronunciation is indeed audible a lot in Bangkok (Central Thailand), but in the Isaan people have a lot of trouble with it, because the regional dialect and I think also Laotian does not have an R sound.
My Thai family really appreciates that I have a good command of the Thai language. I also do not understand that you are / become a farang mai dee, but know that Thais like to gossip among themselves and then be embarrassed if you suddenly show that you have understood everything.
My love was from Khon Kaen and could make a beautiful rolling RRRR. I myself have always had trouble with a nice R. They often teased me by saying “RRRRRob”, for example. And she was very pleased that I spoke at least a few words of Thai (and would eventually learn the language with her once she had finished Dutch NT2, B1 level). At least then she could also tell in her own language how she felt or what she saw. Occasionally she spoke Thai to me without thinking, luckily I was able to extract some keywords so that I understood that she said, for example, that she was crazy about me, <3
I used to sit with a group of women. They addressed each other as ie Nok and ie Noi. So I did too. There was a dead silence, everyone looked at me. I asked 'what's up?' “You say he Nok', that's not nice, ai Tino!' "But you do it too," I protested. 'We are allowed to do that, but a farang absolutely not!', was the answer.
As you pass a school in the north you will hear the teacher say rrroongrrriean, and the students repeat loongliean. Very uncivilized.
Chaawna pai naa thum ngaan nai naa Tino?
Strange sentence
I would say Chaawna pai thum ngaan tii thung naa.
Should I pronounce “thum ngaan” here as “tham ngaan”?
This phonetic writing seems to me to be a mixture of English pronunciation and Dutch pronunciation…
Can be correct Daniel, my phonetic Thai is not good 555
Weird phrase, indeed. But I had to come up with something with only mid tones. Can you think of a sentence of say 8-10 syllables with only falling notes? And maybe the same for the other tones?
Unfortunately I can't help you with that. I learned Thai as a Thai and am not at all concerned with showing.
5555
Then you are a real Thai. In the early stages of my learning process, when I asked a Thai 'what tone(s) does that word have?' they stood speechless or looked at me as if I had lost my mind. Not the teacher of course, he could tell.
For the enthusiasts, here are the Thai names for the tones:
Middle sǐejang sǎaman
Low sǐejang èek
Falling sǐejang thoo
High sǐejang trie:
Rising sǐejang tjàttàwaa
Those last four words are the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 in Sanskrit. Recognizable are the 'thoo', 'two' or the English 'two', and trie:, that our very own 'three'. Sǎaman means 'equal, ordinary, flat'. There is now a 'sǎaman' political party, the party for the 'common man/woman'.
The book mentioned is a grammar badly translated by the non-linguist Schütte, a kind of reference work but certainly not a textbook.
By the way, for Dutch speakers there are quite easy languages (such as Indonesian) and difficult ones (such as Thai and Chinese). I speak from experience in ten languages.
It is misleading to state otherwise, even if it is done with the best didactic intent.
have been teaching the Thai language for 20 years, also to the elderly (over 55). my experience is that they absorb the exercise material very poorly. I also start reading and writing right away. the average student can read after 3 months. Sincerely, F. teijsse….
you give the Thai language in the Netherlands if so where in the Netherlands - I am interested.
After five years of intensive, almost daily studying Thai, I can't say that learning proper Thai is a piece of cake. On the contrary!
Although the language has no cases, there are those 5 tones that make it very difficult.
A word with the same pronunciation can have many different meanings. Take for example phan (mid). When you pay at the cash register it means one thousand. If you are at the market and you inquire about the pomelos, it means the "type" of pomelo. If you are in the emergency room of the hospital, it is about a “bandage”. But that is nothing compared to words like naa (falling) with at least 6 relevant meanings. And I can name dozens of examples.
And finally there is the script in which all the words are written together.
My opinion: Thai is more difficult than French, German and English and is at the level of the “puzzles” of Latin, Greek and Hebrew, Arabic.
I used to believe that everyone who lives (semi) permanently in Thailand had the obligation to learn the national language somewhat properly. I'm moving away from that opinion: the language is just too hard to ask that of everyone.
I just keep going because I like it. But a breeze?
Thank you very much!
Khòb khoen make atjaan Tino.
All beginnings are difficult, and those different tones are a bit scary in the beginning, how are you supposed to learn to recognize all that? But by practicing with short words of 2-3 sounds to learn to recognize the different tones and then learn a basic vocabulary in short sentences and then the alphabet, it should be doable. Practically everyone should be able to learn a language, although it helps if you hear the language around you every day. Children also learn a basic vocabulary of loose words and sentences.
Here's a Thai language lesson where one very consciously teaches calmly, emphasized sounds and with gestures without translations or explanations in another language:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIqIrEG6_y0
In combination with building up the vocabulary, Ronald Schütte's book is great for learning grammar. Together with the dictionaries of Moergestel and thai-language.
And if your family or partner finds it strange or undesirable that you want to learn the language of your other half... then the alarm bells would go off with me, Or are there also Dutch people who live in the Netherlands for a longer period of time with a Thai partner and the find it unnecessary or undesirable that they at least master the basics of the Dutch language? Dangerous if you can operate (semi) independently in the new country of residence. 555
I finally started learning the Thai language 2 months ago, where good guidance is very important. The plan was always that my late love had mastered Dutch first and as soon as all the integration stuff was over we would start working on my Thai and then Isan. She wholeheartedly agreed that it was important for both of us to speak each other's language in order to communicate with friends, family, and others.
Dear Tino, good attempt to get all those (Dutch) farang to study to learn the Thai language. I'm not stupid at all, at the time I obtained my HBS-A diploma with cum laude, with a 10 for French, a 9 for English and an 8 for German. That was in 1967.
I myself have spent more than two years learning Thai. I had purchased what I think was a good self-study course through NHA. A very solid course, with a lot of help with pronunciation (a media player is included, with all words and lessons in Thai pronunciation). Every day I spent more than 4 hours on the lessons. I didn't succeed. I could write and read in Thai, albeit very slowly.
I stopped now because I couldn't find any real progress, I couldn't even follow the Thai news. Extra handicap: I live in Udon and there is no Bangkok Thai spoken (they understand it), but most Thai speak Laotian.
And I have decided to spend my remaining life on things other than the Thai language.
Apparently too hard for me.
But I appreciate your attempt to convince farang that it's not all that difficult.
Regards,
Leo
My experience with learning Thai is that it is a difficult language to learn. If Thai were written in ABC, many more farang would be able to learn the language more easily. The logic in the spelling is also difficult to master. Subsequently, the Thai use two versions of their script, a classic, the original and a modern one, which again requires separate study.
The tones are difficult for everyone and sometimes not better said, often difficult to master.
But to be able to speak the language a bit, a vocabulary is required. A little bit of basic conversation soon requires mastery of at least 1000 words and the basic grammar to bring it into the limelight. That is a major stumbling block for many, because the Thai words are completely foreign to us. You have to fight them, so to speak, to include them in your Thai vocabulary. So make sentences Tino, with 4 or 6 words you really need some time for that.
Now for the age at which you can learn a language, I was already sixty when I started with Thai language.
Had the advantage that I graduated later in life and was therefore used to studying.
However, most of the Dutch people I met here in Thailand worked in an executive profession during their working life. Small self-employed, assembly, sales, etc.
The concepts verb, noun nw. adjective, etc. are far behind them.
In addition, instruction via the Internet is mainly in English. So a double handicap for most. I fully understand that the average expat, pensionado, no longer cares about this statement and looks for his own ways to save himself linguistically here in Thailand.
Conclusion: the Thai language appears to be a stronghold that is difficult to conquer for many. The terms difficult or easy are strongly personal, depends strongly on their personal history.
I have Paiboon's books + CDs. Initially I copied the CDs and replaced the English translation with the Dutch translation I recorded. Often revisited on my mp3 player along the way. That's how I learned the vocabulary.
The verdict… that's another story. I may say the words with the right tone… but that's not enough. Especially the high tone I would mispronounce according to my Thai wife…
I used the phonetic script, but now I'm really learning to read Thai. To help, I use the same method as for the real Thai(se) students: words split into syllables. That works fine now. We recently bought a Thai reading book/textbook for 4th grade students in Antwerp. So really recommended. I think I will buy more of those books in Thailand…
I won't talk about writing for a while... I'm not ready for that yet...
Good luck to everyone who wants to make the effort 😉
I dare to describe myself as a bit of a gift for languages. Speak Spanish French German English and Portuguese fluently.
I have given up Thai. It's a tonal language and you almost have to be born with it. People who are very musically inclined would have it easier.
I was 60 when I started it and I think that's way too late. I bit my teeth on it literally and figuratively. In any case, contacts in Bangkok are quickly switched to English.
In the meantime my wife learned Dutch and she started to learn English even better and that all turned out to work better when I spoke Thai.
With the freed up time I started perfecting my English even better.
In any case, the age to learn a language plays a major role, however one may twist it or turn it. A child learns a number at 2 years.
Might be learnable for some people. But I advise anyone who is a little older to forget about those tones. Because for many people that is not possible. I speak pretty decent Thai after 19 years.
But I can't get those tones. My ears are just not good enough for that. And I already have so many people
frustrated see drop out because of the tones. Take the word kaaw. Can be rice, white, knee, nine, come in, old, news, scribble and stuff. When I had class I thought it knew. But half an hour after class I lost it again. And that's how I've seen a lot of people drop out.
And let's be honest how many farangs do you know who speak the language well. So also master the tones.
I know 2. And I know a lot of farangs in Chiangmai
I even have the regrettable impression that Thais have a hard time making themselves understood even among themselves. It strikes me that Thais often misunderstand each other. I think it has something to do with those tones.
Quote:
'A child learns a number at 2 years'.
Really, dude. At that age, a child knows less than 500 words, still has a relatively poor pronunciation and makes many grammatical errors. It is not until the age of 8 that language use is virtually flawless. A 70-year-old Dutchman who studies an average of 1 hour a day and also talks a lot with his immediate Thai environment will, after 8 years, be at almost the same level as an 8-year-old child in the Netherlands. Probably with a worse pronunciation.
In my experience, the difficulty of learning Thai lies in the beginning. The fact that Thai is a completely different language than almost any Western language makes it a major stumbling block. When you pick up a German, French, Spanish or English learning book for children, you can quickly pick up the 'monkey, nut, mies' words. In Thai, this alone is quite a stumbling block.
I have also noticed that the best learning method differs greatly from person to person. One prefers to learn from a book and then immediately try it out in practice (if the opportunity is there), the other learns best 1-on-1 with a real teacher and the other can learn very well from audio books . I myself belong to a combination of the last two groups.
I wouldn't say I'm shy, but I do have a hard time speaking a foreign language in public if I'm not at least a little confident in what I'm saying. Especially in Thailand where you can not only embarrass yourself, but also others. I started with an audio course from Pimsleur. Every lesson I listened several times and repeated all sentences / words and recorded them with a voice recorder or laptop. I compare my pronunciation with the pronunciation of the audio lesson and only continued when I was satisfied with my pronunciation and understood what I was saying. It must be said that hearing yourself speak Thai with proper (audio) examples can be really hilarious. However, it works very well.
This all went pretty well and smoothly, but the major drawback of an audio book is the fact that while it provides a strong foundation and gives you a reasonable vocabulary, it is not interactive. It can be compared to learning math; you can memorize a problem completely, but if you don't understand how it works and the numbers suddenly change while the sum remains the same, you won't get to the right answer.
When I ran into this wall, I took a teacher in hand. My pronunciation was reasonable and my vocabulary good enough for simple 'holiday' conversations such as shopping, ordering food, at the bar and simple small talk (this was, btw, my first goal). It wasn't until I started working on the language with a teacher that I really started to understand how it works. It was only ~3 hours a week, but it was really fun. I was also very happy that I had already laid a foundation myself.
I still speak far from perfect Thai, and probably never will. There are still many situations where I fall back on 'Tinglish' (English but with Thai grammar/sentence structure). But it is still fun to do. And the faces of my Thai friends and people I meet when I suddenly start speaking Thai make the effort more than worth it. 🙂
I will probably never be able to learn either. But regularly new words will take you a lot further. Even if it's just to ask something in a store… It's appreciated.
Thank you very much for this language lesson Tino.
I try to learn the language somewhat with self-study. From the beginning I have been simultaneously working on vocabulary, pronunciation, reading and to a lesser extent writing. When I hear a word I also want to know how it is spelled, because many people enunciate poorly.
Learning the correct pitch is also a stumbling block for me.
In the beginning I learned that: ๐ = o = medium, ๐่ = ò = low, ๐้ = ô = falling, ๐๊ = ó = high, ๐๋ = ǒ = rising.
However…. I soon found out that the pitch of a tone mark is not applied consistently. Also in your lesson above I come across many cases where one tone sign can have different sounds. I haven't been able to discover any system in it so far (if there is one at all).
Perhaps you can explain to me why a certain tone sign has no unambiguous pronunciation and whether there is a linguistic rule for changing the sound of a certain tone sign.
To illustrate the problem, I have taken the liberty of drawing from the text of your language lesson, assuming that you have written most of it correctly. I have placed exclamation marks before the statement that deviates from the tone mark:
! นั้น (นี้) อะไร 'Nán (níe:) arai' 'What is that (this)?' [What is the difference between 'นั่น' and 'นั้น'?]: Here are the tone marks resp. descending (๐้), (descending (๐้)) and middle (๐), but is the pronunciation resp. high (๐๊), (high (๐๊)) and middle (๐).
! นั่น เรียก ว่า อะไร 'Nán rîeak wâa arai' 'What is it called?': Here are the tone marks resp. low (๐่), middle (๐), low (๐่) and middle (๐), but is the pronunciation resp. high (๐๊), falling (๐้), falling (๐้), and middle (๐).
! พูด (ถาม) นี้ แบบ ใหน 'Phôe:t (thǎam) níe baep nǎi' 'How do you say (ask) this?': Here are the tone marks resp. middle (๐), (middle (๐)), falling (๐้), middle (๐) and middle (๐), but is the pronunciation resp. falling (๐้), (rising (๐๋)), high (๐๊), middle (๐), and rising (๐๋).
ข้าว 'khâaw' 'rice': The tone sign is falling (๐้) and the pronunciation is also falling (๐้).
! ขาว 'khǎaw' 'white': The tone sign is middle (๐), but the pronunciation is ascending (๐๋).
ข่าว 'khàaw' '(the) news': The tone sign is low (๐่) and the pronunciation is also low (๐่).
เสี้อ 'sûua' 'garment, shirt': The tone sign is falling (๐้) and the pronunciation is also falling (๐้).
! เสีอ 'sǔua' 'tiger': The tone sign is middle (๐), but the pronunciation is ascending (๐๋).
เสี่อ 'sùua' 'matje' (on which to eat): The tone sign is low (๐่) and the pronunciation is also low (๐่).
! ฟ้า 'fáa' 'air': The tone sign is falling (๐้), but the pronunciation is high (๐๊).
ตา 'taa', 'eye, grandpa (mother's side)': The tone sign is middle (๐) and the pronunciation is also middle (๐).
! ม้า 'máa' 'horse': The tone sign is falling (๐้), but the pronunciation is high (๐๊).
! ช้า 'cháa' 'slowly': The tone sign is falling (๐้), but the pronunciation is high (๐๊).
! ฟ้า 'fáa' 'air': The tone sign is falling (๐้), but the pronunciation is high (๐๊).
! ค้า 'kháa' 'to buy and sell': The tone sign is falling (๐้), but the pronunciation is high (๐๊).
ห้า 'hâa' 'five (555 is laughter)': The tone sign is falling (๐้) and the pronunciation is also falling (๐้).
! ล่า 'lâa' 'to hunt': The tone sign is low (๐่), but the pronunciation is falling (๐้).
ป้า 'pâa' 'older aunt': The tone sign is falling (๐้) and the pronunciation is also falling (๐้).
บ้า 'bâa' 'crazy': The tone sign is falling (๐้) and the pronunciation is also falling (๐้).
ผ้า 'phâa' 'garment': The tone sign is falling (๐้) and the pronunciation is also falling (๐้).
! หมา'mǎa' 'dog': The tone sign is middle (๐), but the pronunciation is ascending (๐๋).
! หนา 'nǎa' 'thick (of objects)': The tone sign is middle (๐), but the pronunciation is ascending (๐๋).
! หา 'hǎa' 'to look for someone': The tone sign is middle (๐), but the pronunciation is ascending (๐๋).
! ฝา 'fǎa' 'lid, flap': The tone mark is middle (๐), but the pronunciation is ascending (๐๋).
! ม้า มา ช้า 'máa maa cháa' 'The horse comes slowly.': The tone marks are resp. falling (๐้), middle (๐) and falling (๐้), but the pronunciation is resp. high (๐๊), middle (๐) and high (๐๊).
! ตา ล่า หมา 'taa lâa mǎa' 'Grandpa hunts dogs.': The tone marks are resp. middle (๐), low (๐่) and middle (๐), but the pronunciation is resp. middle (๐), falling (๐้) and rising (๐๋).
! หมา หา ม้า 'mǎa hǎa máa' 'The dog is looking for the horse.': The tone marks are resp. middle (๐), middle (๐) and falling (๐้), but the pronunciation is resp. rising (๐๋), rising (๐๋), and high (๐๊).
! ตา บ้า มา ช้า 'taa bâa maa cháa' 'Crazy grandpa is slowly coming.': The tone marks are resp. middle (๐), falling (๐้), middle (๐) and falling (๐้), but the pronunciation is resp. middle (๐), descending (๐้), middle (๐), and high (๐๊).
! ยาย หา ป้า 'jaai hǎa pâa' 'Grandma is looking for auntie.': The tone marks are resp. middle (๐), middle (๐) and falling (๐้), but the pronunciation is resp. middle (๐), rising (๐๋) and falling (๐้).
! คุณขาย ตั๋ว ไหม ครับ 'Khoen khǎai tǒea mái khráp' 'Do you sell tickets?': The tone marks are resp. middle (๐), middle (๐), rising (๐๋), middle (๐) and middle (๐), but the pronunciation is resp. middle (๐), rising (๐๋), rising (๐๋), high (๐๊), and high (๐๊).
! น้ำ 'náam' 'water': Tone sign descending (๐้), pronunciation high (๐๊).
นำ 'took' 'lead, precede': Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation middle (๐).
โต๊ะ 'tó' 'table': Tone sign high (๐๊), pronunciation high (๐๊).
โต 'too' 'big': Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation middle (๐).
ติ 'tie' (short) 'to criticize, scold': Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation middle (๐).
ตี 'tie:' (long) 'to strike': Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation middle (๐).
! พุทธ 'phóet' (short) 'the Buddha': Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation high (๐๊).
! พูด 'phôe:t' (lang) 'talk': Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation descending (๐้).
ตา 'taa' 'eye': Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation middle (๐).
! ท่า 'thâa (d)' 'port, jetty': Tone sign low (๐่), pronunciation descending (๐้).
ตี 'tie:' 'to hit': Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation middle (๐).
! ที่ 'thîe:' 'place, space, te, in': Tone sign low (๐่), pronunciation descending (๐้).
ป่า 'pàa' 'forest': Tone sign low (๐่), pronunciation low (๐่).
ผ้า 'phâa' 'garment': Tone sign falling (๐้), pronunciation falling (๐้).
ปู 'poe:' 'crab or Yingluck': Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation middle (๐).
ผู้ 'phôe:' 'person': Tone sign falling (๐้), pronunciation falling (๐้).
เก้า 'kâaw' 'nine': Tone sign falling (๐้), pronunciation falling (๐้).
ข้าว 'khâaw' 'rice': Tone sign falling (๐้), pronunciation falling (๐้).
กา 'kaa' 'crow' ('kaa,kaa'): Tone sign middle (๐), pronunciation middle (๐).
! ฆ่า 'khâa' 'kill, kill': Tone sign low (๐่), pronunciation descending (๐้).
! ไม้ ใหม่ ไม่ ไหม้ 'Máai mài mâi mâi '(resp. wood new not burning) 'New wood not burning': Tone marks are resp. falling (๐้), low (๐่), low (๐่) and falling (๐้), pronunciation is resp. high (๐๊), low (๐่), falling (๐้) and falling (๐้).
That difference in tones has to do with the class of a letter. Another class, another influence of a tone sign on the tone. Seems to have been different in a distant past, then a tone sign always indicated the same tone.
For the letter classes, see Ronald's example pages at the bottom of this web page: http://www.slapsystems.nl/Boek-De-Thaise-Taal/voorbeeld-pagina-s/
Quote:
"In the beginning I learned that: ๐ = o = medium, ๐่ = ò = low, ๐้ = ô = falling, ๐๊ = ó = high, ๐๋ = ǒ = rising."
Dear Theo,
I wish you success with your studies.
You are addressing one of the most difficult and tricky issues in the relationship of spelling and pronunciation. That's not unique to Thai, mind you. Dutch has that too, but we don't realize it anymore. The mute -e- sound can be spelled in 5 ways in the Netherlands, namely -e- (de); -ee- (a (house)); -ij- (delicious); -i- (nice) and the -u- (Tinus). But then Thai.
A few centuries ago, the tone marks always indicated the same tone, as you presume above. Not anymore, and that explains the problem you mentioned above. Which tone sign represents which tone depends on the kind of consonant that the tone sign is above. So the same tone sign can show different tones.
There are three classes of consonants in Thai: high class (eg ข ส ถ), middle class (eg ก ต ด), and low class, most (eg ง ล ท). For a complete list you have to dive into the books. Most learn the smaller number of high and middle class consonants, the rest are the many low class consonants.
Two tone signs only occur to me the middle class consonants: อ๊ de máai trie and she indicates a high tone, e.g. ก๊อก kóhk water tap. The อ๋ máai tjàttàwaa gives a rising tone to eg ตั๋ว tǒea ticket.
Then the อ่ máai èek. With lower class consonants it gives a falling tone eg ย่า jâa oma (father's side) but with upper and middle class consonants a low tone eg ไข่ khài een ei.
Finally the อ้ máai thoo. It gives a high tone to eg ม้า máa horse in the lower class consonants, and a falling tone in the upper and middle class consonants eg ข้าว khâaw rice.
So these last two tone marks indicate different tones in the three different kinds of consonants.
As my teacher jokingly remarked, we Thais have made writing so difficult that you farang can never master it. It's up to you to prove otherwise.
A simple trick for determining the tone:
remember 3 consonants (A) and the numbers of the tone marks (B).
A: 3 consonants, 1 from each tone group:
hŏoh hìip (rising-low/consonant high-tone group)
dooh dèk (equal or mid-low / consonant mid-tone group)
hooh nók hûuk (equal or mid-high-falling / consonant low-tone group)
The letter (hŏoh, dooh, hooh) matches the living syllable (does not end with a short vowel or the k,p,t sound; the word associated with that consonant (hìip, dèk, nók hûuk) matches with the living syllable, so with the low-tone consonant a distinction is made between short syllable and long syllable.
B: the numbers of the 4 tone marks:
1 = low
2 = descending
3 = high
4 = rising
3 and 4 only occur in combination with the consonants of the middle-tone group and thus determine the pronunciation of the syllable.
If no tone sign is present then rule A applies, otherwise rule B applies.
Rule B: If the consonant belongs to the high tone group or the middle tone group, the tone corresponds to the tone sign. If the consonant belongs to the low tone group, then you have to add 1, so low tone sign becomes falling tone and falling tone sign becomes high tone.
In addition, you only have to remember the consonants of the high-tone group and those of the middle-tone group. The others then belong to the low-tone group.
It can be that simple. Good luck!
Rectification:
the word attached to that consonant (hìip, dèk, nók hûuk) corresponds to the DEAD syllable.
Thanks for the explanation Rob V., Tino Kuis and Daniël M..
I had vaguely heard of letter classes, but didn't know what to do with them.
After your explanation and some study, I went through the examples in class again. With the knowledge just acquired, I think the tones in the following examples from the lesson should be improved as follows. (I hope the special characters are displayed correctly.):
นั้น เรียก ว่า อะไร 'Nán rîeak wâa arai' 'What's it called?': น้=low class+descending => high(ó), ร=low class+middle => middle(o), ว่=low class+low = > descending(ô), อ=middle class => middle(o). So 'Nán rieak wâa arai'
พูด (ถาม) นี้ แบบ ใหน 'Phôe:t (thǎam) níe baep nǎi' 'How do you say (ask) this?': พ=low class => middle(o), (ถ=high class => ascending( ǒ)), น้=low class+falling => high(ó), บ=middle class => middle(o), ห=high class => rising(ǒ). So 'Phoe:t (thǎam) níe baep nǎi'
คุณขาย ตั๋ว ไหม ครับ 'Khoen khǎai tǒea mái khráp' 'Do you sell tickets?': ค=low class => middle(o), ข=high class => rising(ǒ), ต ๋=middle class+rising => rising( ǒ), ห=high class => rising(ǒ), ค=low class => middle(o). So 'Khoen khǎai tǒea mǎi khrap'
พุทธ 'phóet'(short) 'the Buddha': พ=low class => middle(o). So 'phot'.
พูด 'phôe:t'(lang) 'to talk': พ=low class => middle(o). So 'phoe:t'.
Have I got it right, or are there more linguistic catches here?
Hopefully the response option will remain open long enough.
PS @Tino: Is it typical Grunnings to pronounce the word nice as 'earthug' (like 'mosquito')? I speak it. out as 'nice' (with an -i-) 😉
I also thought I understood that “you” in Groningen know no sound difference between the -ch- and the -g- and pronounce both as a “hard” -g-.