'If you listen to Thais talking about Chinese you would think we all come from the same village, have the same father and mother, and that we all think and act the same. Thousands of grains of rice thrown into a basket….” Botan, Letters from Thailand.
I say on purpose 'we' because sometimes I do too, I just hope not too often. We all do that from time to time. I think it is a universal, innate defect of us humans, when we come into contact with other countries and peoples, to characterize, classify and pigeonhole those strange people. This people is sister, that people are like that.
The first meeting is always a bit anxious and strange and in our uncertainty we make it clear by sticking labels. Just sit down, close your eyes and think 'Frisians', 'Amsterdammers', 'Russians', 'Thai' and 'women'. Okay? That's what I mean. A kind of standard image always arises, fed by our limited own experiences and what we read or heard further.
What is common to Thai? Just one single thing: they are Thai; otherwise they are all different, just as different as the Dutch. Can you paint a picture of a 'typical Thai'? No that is not possible.
For example, they once asked a hundred Dutch people to paint a picture of a 'typical Dutch person'. Those hundred descriptions agreed on a large number of points.
Then it was tested whether that description might apply to one of those hundred people. That was not the case at all. A 'typical Dutchman', or any nation for that matter, is a figment of the brain and has nothing to do with reality.
But what does it matter, you will say, what are you so worked up about? Well, I leave that to your own judgment. I personally find it mostly unjustified and always annoying.
I think we should make an effort to avoid clichés, generalities and generalizations. Let's think before we say something.
What are your own experiences? Do you recognize anything in my story? Do you sometimes get annoyed about this and about which things in particular? Have your ideas about 'the Thai' changed over time? Are there things that you still want to see as 'typically Thai'?
Reply to the statement: We must stop lumping all Thais together.
Submitted communication
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Indeed.
Every person is different, yet you have different cultures everywhere that you quickly throw together with an opinion about someone where it comes from.
1 Amsterdammer, for example, has a big mouth with many people, if you get to know them close, they are often people you can laugh with because of their special humor.
The Thai is presented to us as very nice, if you live there longer you will think about it before you get a bottle in your head or even worse.
Often there is a prejudice where someone comes from.
Man himself, no matter where it comes from is someone you like or not.
I think you are triggering a fierce discussion that you can already experience when you are in your home country and they know that you are often in Thailand, you are already a prostitute to people who have never been there.
Of course I agree. This would be a nicer statement: A 'typical Dutch person', or any nation for that matter, is a figment of the imagination and has nothing to do with reality.
Well, of course I agree. And that compartmentalized thinking and stereotypes are something you often read here on TB. Strangely enough, a stereotype about the Dutch or the Netherlands is less likely to be moderated than stereotypes about Thais (or Russians 😉 ). Blaming one's own country or people is apparently more accepted emotionally. Personally, I find it all equally unpleasant and short-sighted. Whether you read '“the Dutch”, “the Russian” or “the Thai” are blunt / grumpy / short-fused / ... ' And actually that kite also applies to positive stereotypes such as tolerance, generosity, smile, etc. as if every or many people of a nation are like that. As you write: a stereotype of a people is made in such a way, but if you look at an individual, he or she is simply a unique person who happens to be a member of that people and happens to share some characteristics with the stereotype.
No, I try not to think in stereotypes. Certainly not in terms of character. Maybe in terms of eating habits, language, etc. if it "has to be" such as "Dutch people love croquette" (not every of course), "Thai people love Pappaya pokpok" (not every of course)". You also recognize a lot in terms of language: you can easily pick out an Amsterdammer, but not every Amsterdammer has a (strong) accent. This is also the case with the Thai: when they speak English, you sometimes hear them swallowing consonants at the end (emphasized examples: “Fren Fry” instead of “Frenc Fries”, “Whi wij wih ij” instead of “white whine with ice”). But here you are tarring entire groups with the same brush.
Of course, not everyone does this or equally extreme. And in terms of character: talk or think about 10-15 Thai/Dutch/Russian people you have spoken to, preferably in a similar scenario (a hotel employee will approach you differently than a passenger next to you on the train). Were all Thai friendly? All those Dutch complaining unfriendly vinegar pissers? All those Russians antisocial jerks with a big mouth? Don't think so huh? No, I don't believe in stereotypes about character at all. In the first instance, I assume someone's good intentions, even if there may be surprise or miscommunication due to differences in language, culture/upbringing, etc. Enjoy every day, be open and understanding towards others, don't judge too quickly an individual and realize that you yourself can be completely wrong with your judgments and assumptions, so be wise enough to step back for a reassessment.
After reading and following Thailand blog for a long time, I can only come to 1 conclusion and that is that there are 2 types of people and that is people who are open to Thai culture and people who try their luck with a Thai! ! After about 2 years of friendship with Thai people, I can only come to the conclusion that they are certainly no more or less gifted and cultured than European people, they have a different view of us in some areas, which does not mean that it's better or worse, just brought by another culture! In terms of intelligence, I think they can just stand next to us, but in many cases the possibilities are different than with us. After a relationship of 7 years with a Thai that will probably be followed by marriage, I can certainly not confirm that I too have not become open-minded and have come to see many things differently, things that we see and criticize differently here in Europe. But before you can come to this decision, you must also live among the Thai people and certainly not limit yourself to the nightlife and discos and the like, because there you will not get to know the real Thai people, you will only see business there, as you with us, so I can only conclude one thing if you want to get to know the real Thais, live with them and communicate and you will see that they are finally not much different from us and they are very wonderful people to live with, where respect is given and is received and certainly has nothing to do with being more or less gifted.
Every culture has different ideas, habits, behaviors….
There is no need to talk about a nationality, there are also arrogant Dutch people, Belgians, you name it…..
Live and let live & otherwise don't go to Thailand and go somewhere else 😉
Of course are not:
All Dutch.....
All Belgians…..
All Greeks…..
All Russians.....
All Thai.....
All go on………….
But quite often one can estimate the origin of a person by his/her behavior.
This is just my opinion and experience.
Greetings
Didit.
Tino's story sounds sympathetic.
But do I also agree?
Let's take a closer look at some special cases:
Thailand is in the tropics. The Thai is adapting to the warm climate.'
It is a statistical statement that has taken the form of a general truth, but is not.
"Thai people are egocentric."
As the foregoing, but rather meaningless without specifying what is meant by egocentric.
"The Thais are not a pretty people, but as they get older they do get a certain dignity."
These words express a personal value judgment – in this case by the English writer Somerset Maugham in A gentleman in the parlour. Someone else may strongly disagree. No problem.
Until we read in the next paragraph that he praises the Indians for the noble features of their Aryan race…
'Thais respect everything that lives and grows.'
You can agree or disagree, there is a reasonable discussion to be had about it, with examples and arguments. In that sense: acceptable, preferably the conclusion (possibly negative) at the end of that discussion.
'Thai women are subservient, it is in their Asian nature.'
Premature perhaps, but does the speaker literally mean what he says?
see the Youtube video 'Tai op 'e klaai'. Thai woman and Dutch man both speak.
And so you can go on, “it just depends”.
Do they mean what they say? Are people saying what they mean?
Is it a provisional statement, a first indication of how one sees the world?
Of course I leave out the drinks table certainties.
But the benevolent-sounding words: all people are different, does not really clarify either.
Hmm, should be worked out.
boy.
I read the opening statement and all the responses, Thailand is a large country Kmer Lao etc etc left their mark. People are often proud of their regional customs and speech and there is a lot of difference in appearance, customs, views and trading methods... and they are often disparaging of other population groups. Thais like to gossip. It's almost Dutch with Tukkers 020 brabers and not to forget Rdammers, we all have something in common. We expats are guests and we often do not understand the language. and often do not understand the customs at all. You are a guest and you leave money behind. Tang farang is not dirty. so our often rude behavior is accepted. If you want to start a business in Thailand with a girlfriend or wife, you will notice that the average Thai is not keen on this and people are quick to speak ill of you. You then take THAI baths away from the Thai, and you are often boycotted or overtaxed. The comment that Thai people are egocentric is correct as far as I am concerned. That is incidental to the harshness of the existence of the Thai in Thailand AND let's face it To be honest, we are happy with the Poles, Bulgarians, etc.
The worst are the people (farang) who take their own wife/girlfriend as a measure for all Thais. Like: 'my wife does this or that, so Thai women just do that.' In my opinion you are not quite on the right track.
And always sweeping the behavior of an individual onto the great Thai culture heap. To drive you crazy. Thinking in boxes is mainly laziness.
I've written about it before, but it's pointless. One has a wider horizon than the other.
Well, anyone who has ever heard from me how I experienced the overly bossy boss on a bus trip through Thailand (a Dutchman) and his meek second man (a Thai on the same bus trip) knows why I then decided to leave the Netherlands and settle down in Thailand.
The experience of those days revealed more to me than the previous experience of decades. I suddenly experienced that a much more appreciated standard was possible in dealing with each other than existed in the Netherlands.
The pressure that the Dutch all too often put on me, always towards their standard views and standard prejudices, while I still feel free in Thailand, if you don't know about that and you lump Dutch and Thai together, then I ask myself off, which makes Thailand so attractive for many Dutch people (and not only Dutch people). Anyway, that's about the typical Dutchman versus the idem Thai. (That from those Dutch people to my -I realize that- subjective experience; but that experience is not only subjective).
Furthermore: it is an insult to any individual to be lumped together with -within a culture- just anyone. That is calling him (or her) someone who is unable to gain insight and build up his own motivation and come to his own accountability.
This 'catching with the same brush' is the use of a prejudice, it is the denial of the individuality of the individual. It's an irresponsible, just an immoral generalization. It is relegating the individual to a subordinate to the group. This is all the more reprehensible if there is no need to raise one's hand in one's own bosom. Then we state that we are the standard and we are authorized to judge.
I spot a number of stereotypes / boxes here: 😉
– “our rude behaviour” : who is 'us'? The majority of the Dutch/Europeans/Weserlings (farang)? Why bot? etc.
– “The Thai do not tolerate farang competition”: again that just depends on the individual, but I can imagine that if someone from outside steals the show there can be talk of jealousy: a person from another village/city/province/country /… comes to 'steal' money or work. And if it feels like stealing, that person will probably not care whether the 'profieur' comes from the west, a neighboring country, or from a neighboring region.
As you yourself indicate, you encounter these comments everywhere, even in the Netherlands, where people 'from outside' (the village, region, province, country) are accused of taking money and/or jobs. If things are not going well, the “own group” appears to be quite natural at first. The foreigner is of course welcome if he or she performs services that one would like to see others do, such as dirty work. People are still stuck in boxes: “those Poles/Cambodians/… take the jobs, but the one who does the housework for us is okay”. People can be quite hypocritical.
As for stereotypes: it may well be the case that a random Dutch person is often more direct than a random Thai. And so you can draw up a laundry list of stereotypes. Say about 10 or more points. Then take a first individual, perhaps that person has 4 properties from that list, and the second person also has 4-5 properties from that list, and the third also a number, and the fourth, and the fifth, the sixth happens to be none and with a bit of luck maybe someone who meets all 10 stereotypical characteristics. Every individual is unique, there is no such thing as “the” Dutchman, Thai, Amsterdammer or Bangkokian.
All well and good, so that simplistic stereotype, but what good is it if you are dealing with an individual? Not very much.
The question should be whether to stop, but it is better not to start tarring everything and everyone with the same brush. I don't understand why we have negative comments about the Thai. If I am invited or have the opportunity to go to a party where I know the host is a negative person, I don't go. It is known that we are known as Dutch whiners and busybodies. Is that probably not the case for every Dutch person? Everyone is different and that's a good thing. If I can't get through a door with a countryman or Thai, I avoid him. He who is smart takes a step back. top martin
Generalizing is never correct. There are major differences in culture, views and even language and appearance between, for example, Isaan, Changrai, and the southern states. Suratthani, Songkla, Nakhon si. But that is also the case in the Netherlands, with Brabant, Limburg and Groningen, Friesland.
Nieys news under the sun. The Thai does not exist as little as the Dutchman!
Everyone sometimes generalizes, including the Thai people themselves.
And of course you can put people in boxes in a positive or negative sense, I myself sometimes make myself guilty because I often generalize too positively when it comes to Thailand.
Generalizing and stigmatizing will always be there as long as people are involved, Theo Maassen has jokingly said “I don't like generalizing, Surinamese always do it that way.
I can get annoyed especially when I read blog comments here on Thailand in which Thai people are unnecessarily and negatively dismissed or sometimes ridiculed, without being substantiated in any way.
Most of us have lost our hearts to Thailand and that is precisely why I do not understand the reactions of some of us, it sometimes seems as if they are in Thailand for punishment.
The statement is, I think, like an open door, most would agree with this. We are all different on a personal level. As a group or society, however, there are indeed major differences. Thailand is a completely different country than Belgium or the Netherlands.
So the average Thai will think and act very differently in certain situations than, for example, the average Dutch person. This can sometimes lead to fun situations on both sides, but sometimes also to irritations or worse. We must respect the Thais. But we should, for example, be a little alert to abuses, which the ordinary Thai population suffers from. Fortunately, this happens regularly on this (in my opinion) great blog.
Fortunately, not all Thai ladies are the same, mine is different. With this comment you will soon have the laughter on your hand (they laugh behind their hand). I think everyone is different, fortunately, but when we look at another people, we notice the habits. And I think it is true that Thai people have different habits than we Dutch people. But is that why they are different? I don't think so because those habits can be unlearned or changed very quickly, I know from experience. That is why my relationship is still very good (15 years), because with some habits I could not live with a Thai in the Netherlands. I have also adapted so she also says (hopefully) that not all Dutch people are the same. I think the biggest difference in people is what they see from the parents, family and friends around them and take over a lot of things from this. And then we arrive and say those Thais are all the same. Luckily I don't think so!!!
.Mine is different is a beautiful book by.
you have adapted and probably have enough financial resources to satisfy your fold, but not everyone can.
With an income of around 1000 Euros, you can forget about having a wife and living in Thailand, unless it is an orphan without brothers and sisters
realist
Moderator: you are supposed to respond to the statement.
I am now on holiday in Thailand for the 2nd time for 3 months, when I tell random people in the Netherlands, they immediately say watch out, or you will lose all your money.
People think in the Netherlands, and I'm mainly talking about the south of the Netherlands, that the many single Thai Lady's are only after your money.
Fortunately, my experience is different, you have to pay attention, because their mentality is different in Thailand than in the Netherlands, and the Thailady is more bold than our Dutch single ladies.
It is a matter of having an honest conversation and telling what it is and what you want to spend during the period that you are here in Thailand.
It is quickly thought that people from the US and from Europe all have a lot of money to spend, but they are slowly discovering that it is not all driving tickets.
After all, we also come to celebrate our holiday, don't we?
If there really were no generally characteristic differences between individual specimens of any kind, we could immediately throw overboard all the scientific foundations of, say, entomology, stem cell science, DNA research, etc.
After all, isn't the scientific determination of species usually done on the basis of (deductions with regard to) generalizing models?
Gr Kito
I think the statement should read “Is there a national character in general and a Thai national character in particular.” Then I think “yes, it does exist, but it is almost impossible to define it in exact and concrete terms.” Anyone who has lived in a country for a long time knows what I mean. So it does exist, but if someone says “it only exists if you can define it” then unfortunately I have to drop out. By the way, is it typically Western to only accept substantiated claims, or is that again a clichéd generality? I don't think so, national character is largely determined by national and lifestyle culture, and we Westerners live in a culture of exactness and factuality. However, there are also other things such as intuition and sensitivity. The two sometimes collide in Asia.
I don't want to reveal too much about my private situation because it's not fun for someone else to read. It is indeed a beautiful book hence my comment. With us, we both work very hard in the Netherlands and invest the savings in our bed and breakfast, which is now only open 3 months a year. My wife is not an orphan but has 2 sisters and brothers and I have made a division of who contributes how much to the maintenance of the parents and everyone adheres to that. We also asked the eldest brother to take care of the 2 oldies and the other 4 pay him a salary for this. So maybe mine is different or I'm different that could also be possible. I also want to say that I'm sorry that you don't respond under your own name.
I am not allowed to chat, but I would like to note that you live in the Netherlands with your Thai wife, which is completely different from living in Thailand with a Thai wife.
So yours is different, but you are certainly different from the average Farang who is married to a Thai woman and also lives in Thailand.
Every country has its culture and customs, there is nothing wrong with that, but to get to know the Thai you need at least 50 years.
The examples are far too many to list here.
By the way, my name is Marinus from Nongprue.
@ Hans. You seem to disagree with the statement, and that is your right. I also generalize, but you should not bring it back to the individual level; generalizing describes the garden and the flowers are the individuals.
And what is typical ('characteristic or peculiar') about the Thai? If you ask a Thai you will get answers such as: veneration and love for the king, Buddhism, harmony and unity, loyalty to the family. If you ask the same thing to a foreigner, you will get very different answers, which you can also make up yourself or read on the internet. If you ask a Dutch person what is typically Dutch, the most common words you hear are 'clogs, tulips, windmills, Sinterklaas, Oranjefeeling, herring, licorice' and so on. For a foreigner, 'typical Dutch' is something else. Fun to play with, but hardly to be taken seriously. They are images, illusions, shadows and nothing more. That 'typical' is something different for everyone, so it has no real value, a 'typical Thai' only exists in our dreams.
Perhaps you here like to see the Thai in a person, and I try to see the person in the Thai, and the latter entails putting aside all thoughts of what is Thai.
If you ask a random person on the street what they think of another nationality you will get a mostly stereotypical answer. A Thai who often comes or lives in the Netherlands does not think of Sinterklaas, tulips, windmills and clogs. He probably thinks more of the safe traffic and the confrontational directness of the Dutchman. I think your argument is flawed here. The majority of commenters here have experience and knowledge of Thailand. When they point out the differences (for better or for worse), they do nothing more than point out the difference between our cultures and the resulting different behavior. You always need a certain “generalization” here.
As sympathetic as it may be, we cannot treat every Thai person personally.
Moderator: Your response is generalizing.
This is not a statement but a personal experience question.
There are many countries with diverse cultures, but which culture appeals to you to stay longer than usual.
Bad apples are everywhere in every culture and they will never go away.
It is largely up to you to leave the rotten apples or to taste them.
Let's let everyone be in their own worth, it's up to the person to be strong, but also to believe in themselves. If something goes wrong, there must have been some doubt beforehand whether reality was lost through love or a win-win process.
Be boss in your own stomach, as it is so nicely called, but also act accordingly.
You should only respect a culture, also in your own homeland.
Those who tar all Thai with the same brush are stuck in their stereotypical image of the Thai. Stereotypes exist, cannot be ignored in this world and also have a proper function. Stereotypes are either based on a lack of knowledge (of the Thai, of Thailand), of understanding (why do Thais do this?) or are used as a form of defense mechanism (I don't want to drink as much alcohol as Thai men do) or to blame the 'stranger' for something (Thai are never faithful to their partner in their marriage).
Stereotypes also have a function. If you go to a country that you know nothing about (except for the booklets, info from the tour operator and some videos on YouTube) you can problematize everything you encounter. That would drive you crazy. So unconsciously you respond to people in that country based on information from third parties. Sometimes that goes well, sometimes you have to adjust your image. It becomes curious when you suddenly meet someone from a country you have never heard of. So you are completely blank and do not have a stereotypical image of those people. That happened to me years ago when I met the ambassador of Bhutan.
I think that all Thailandblog readers never tar the Thai with the same brush. After all, they are better informed, have their own experiences and show understanding. Those who do have never been to Thailand and have heard it all.
I quote: “Every day I observe differences with myself in previous lives elsewhere. … and I usually enjoy the difference, it is even my main reason for continuing to live here… How different would that be if they were all Dutch. Or Germans. Or …"
How touching (homage!) is expressed here exactly what I also experience.
I think the comparison that Tino made with the flower garden is a very nice one. Of course the Dutch garden has a different atmosphere than the Thai one. Of course, that says nothing about the flowers in the garden, each one is unique. And (unique) flowers in one garden may also have similarities with (unique) flowers in another garden. And if you ask 10 people (gardeners) to create a “typical Thai” or “typical Dutch garden,” they will all differ slightly. One person labels tulips as something typically Dutch, another disagrees because people also have tulips elsewhere and we actually do not originally have tulips in the Netherlands.
It is then just up to the individual which garden you like better than the other, and which is "better"? Every garden has its pluses and minuses, and maybe you are in the wrong corner of the garden or in a corner of the garden that is more beautiful than the rest of the garden.
And you can compare the universal values in cultures (gardens) with the universal properties of a garden: need for water, nutrition, etc.
In my opinion, a very good comparison, and someone who grumbles that (almost) all flowers in a garden are no good is clearly tarring everything with the same brush and being subjective. In my humble opinion, you are being a bit short-sighted if you throw out sentences like “Almost all Thai men cheat” or “The Dutch are almost all blunt jerks”. In my experience, pessimistic stereotypes about the Netherlands are more likely to pass the censorship, it seems. Every now and then I feel attacked by negative messages about the Netherlands or "the" Dutch, which will also apply to Thais who hear stereotypical comments about themselves (and so do I, statements about "the Thai man/woman/..." are on it's laughable).
The comparison is also somewhat flawed in my opinion. Tino wants to reason all cultural differences back to individual differences and implicitly refuses to assume that there is such a thing as Thai culture or Dutch culture: a more or less shared set of values and norms. And I'm not talking about somtam or licorice, but about views, norms and values.
The point of the gardens is not that there is a different atmosphere between a Dutch and a Thai garden (may be due to the taste of the garden owner), it is about the fact that in a Thai garden there are some flowers, plants and trees (the papaya, orchids, jackfruit, pineapple) do very well that do not grow at all in a Dutch garden. And vice versa: chicory, plums, pears, geraniums.
You're distorting my position, dear Chris. A culture is the average sum of all individual values, opinions, habits and customs. And of course you will then find smaller (usually) or larger (sometimes) differences between those cultures, between those average numbers. You always find differences when you compare two things. What you are NOT allowed to do is explain those differences at a cultural, average level back to the individual level. 'The culture is on average collective and therefore all individuals in that culture think collectively', that is incorrect and that is what you often hear. The average norms and values of Thai society cannot be attributed to every Thai individual, even if this is promoted from above.
I find your horticultural explanation quite apt. For decades it has been said by all kinds of Asian dictators (Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia) that democratic values based on the Western model cannot flourish in an Asian garden with Asian values. That is indeed possible, as the last 10 years have proven.
dear tin…
We agree more than you think. There are clear, significant differences between the Thai and the Dutch on a number of points (values and norms). Significant means that these differences can NOT be attributed to chance. Acting on that basis is not wrong at all and quite normal. If the Thai have a significantly more collective attitude, it is useful to approach a Thai with this attitude. And then what turns out? In many cases IT IS TRUE. In other cases you will encounter a Thai who is more individualistic. No problem. I never say all Thai, but: more Thai than Dutch think collectivistic.
And I don't think there is a universal Western model of democracy. That would be tarnishing all democracies with the same brush. The Americans, the English, the Dutch have all modeled their democracy differently. And Thailand is certainly not an example of a democracy according to any Western model.
“More Thai people than the Dutch think collectivistically”. Is that so? Could it be that the Dutch are not very aware of how collectivistic they are?
Hofstede has done studies into cultural differences and how to deal with them. He thought that you can and should use those differences when dealing with larger groups, business, advertising, education, tourists, etc., but that you should not use them on an individual level. The metaphor of the garden and the flowers comes from Hofstede. And to get into the greater likelihood of an individual Thai thinking collectively, that's true. But it is equally true that a young woman in Pattaya is more likely to be a prostitute than a young woman in Nakhorn Nowhere is a prostitute. But should you approach that woman in Pattaya with that attitude? So no. You do yourself and the other no service by assuming what the other is like.
Look, Hans, I can go a long way with that. But it remains difficult to call something “typically Thai” or “typically Dutch”, to a certain extent, but it all remains relative. You can say “fries/peanut butter/… is typically Dutch” but of course not something that can only be found in the Netherlands. Just as you can call a lotus/orchid in a Thai garden typically Thai, but it fits just as well in a garden in a neighboring country.
Recognizing something “typically Dutch” or “typically Thai” will be quite easy to determine, but of course not immediately unique to just that country/region, for example it could also be a neighboring country/region.
Feel free to name the differences you see between a Thai and Dutch environment (garden), but don't assume that that observation is the one and only. Another observer will come to a different conclusion and it is still very difficult to name something that really makes something 100% unique “Dutch” or “Thai” while it could just as well concern a neighbor.
Placed side by side, everyone can see the differences (and similarities) between a Thai and Dutch environment or garden. But try naming them. That is approximately doable, but you won't be able to stick a label “and that's just the way it is” on anything. Hence my comment in an earlier post that you should never think that your own perception is too (only?) correct, but your perception cannot be entirely correct and you should always be open to taking a step back for a new look.
Take the way students interact with their teacher, or colleagues with their boss. This will generally be different between the Netherlands and Thailand. The famous “in the Netherlands you can contradict a higher person and make your own opinion clear to this person, but in Thailand. the higher up is simply right and you have to listen.” Roughly speaking, that seems to me to be a fact, but the corporate culture will differ between companies in the Netherlands, between departments, etc. Not everyone in the Netherlands or Thailand will (as a private person or as a company/department) meet this observation. And all this is of course relative, if you compare the Netherlands with Thailand, a statement/observation will probably be different than if you make the same differences between Thailand and, say, Japan or North Korea. All in all, such observations are good tools to help you on your way, as long as you do not see them as the ultimate/only truth. You can easily end up in a Thai company/department where interaction “feels very Dutch/Western” to the observer.
Dear Hans, I do see cultural differences. Those gardens are clearly different, although less different than many think, and they have much less influence on a person's personality than is thought. And I also enjoy those cultural differences (and I hate some of them, just look at my postings). I enjoy those wonderfully messy streets here where all sorts of things are happening and I hate those neat, quiet Vinex neighborhoods in the Netherlands. But I just don't think you should impose or attribute those cultural differences to every Thai, to every individual, that's all I want to say. If you think it's an open door, so be it, it just happens too often to me. Let's call a 'tulip' an individualistic flower. They are found more often in Dutch gardens, that is true, but they are also plentiful in Thai gardens. (This is a metaphor).
That finger is right, I'm the last one to deny that. You may be annoyed by it, but it is my own individual, sometimes annoying, character trait, but it has nothing to do with the Netherlands at all. You also see such a pedantic finger, and perhaps more, in Thailand, although it is not typically Thai. And if you think it's arrogant that I call someone who says 'all Thais, every Thai is this or that' an 'ignorant labeller', then so be it.
You have formulated it perfectly, dear Rob V. I have followed the discussion about Sinterklaas/Zwarte Piet on a few websites. As far as I'm concerned: just maintain it, although I can imagine the objections of others. But the argument I haven't come across in that discussion so far is 'It's part of Dutch culture'. The case is judged on its merits. Here it is almost always said, as if in a kind of reflex, 'It's just part of the Thai culture'. The Thais often do that too, you know, ('Thais just revere their monks') but that doesn't make it right. It kills a good discussion.
Definition of stereotype: 'fixed representation of something or someone, without regard to individual persons or things'. You can inform tourists about practical matters, health, food, shoes, no public criticism of the king and so on, but not about how 'Thai' are: smiling, short fuse, caring, drinking et cetera. The priest who taught us in Kiswahili before we left for Tanzania said, 'Forget everything you've ever heard about how Africans are'.
Hello,
I am following with great interest the intense discussion of some bloggers on this subject. According to their writing, they apparently had a very good education, at least higher studies than I had. Therefore, and to add some grist to the mill, 2 small questions. – Is it a generalization to say that Thai people do not appreciate being – reprimanded – ordered – laughed at by strangers (loss of face) or in other words: Would most Belgians/Dutch accept this in their country from some tourist? ??? 2) Are there also Belgians/Dutch who try to get in front of some cash register???
These are just 2 examples that have nothing to do with gardens, but with the original question.
Greetings
Didit
We close the discussion and thank everyone for their contribution.