Statement of the week: 'Relationship problems with a Thai due to cultural differences is nonsense!'
Are you also annoyed by stamps that we keep printing on Thai? Like they're from another planet? Is it rational to sweep all Thai behavior under the carpet of cultural differences? And who do you actually have a relationship with? With an origin, a profession, a culture, a trained monkey?
You know the clichés. Yes, she is jealous because all Thai women are. Yes, he drinks and is stupid and lazy because all Thai men are. Aren't there jealous women or drinking, stupid and lazy men in the rest of the world and in the Netherlands?
Also something like that, men who say: "My partner is from the bar or she is an (ex) bargirl." And what are you then? Does your Thai partner have a relationship with a carpenter? Or does she say: “My husband comes from a warehouse because he is a warehouse worker”. Do you belong to the shot game thanks to your past or your profession? An inferior species? Are you forever branded for what you once did in your life. I don't understand those labels and qualifications that are put on 'other species'. A label can never determine the behavior of an individual, can it?
In the end, we are all flesh and blood people with the same needs, wishes and dreams. That is no different for someone who comes from Thailand than for someone who comes from the Netherlands.
I myself have been in a relationship with a woman for almost four years now. She happens to be born in Thailand. This makes her just like us, an inhabitant of planet earth. And every inhabitant of this planet has the same basic needs such as sleeping, eating, drinking, sex and going to the toilet. My girlfriend, like me, strives for safety and security in her life. She wants to work for this, generate income, so that she can eventually rent or buy a house. Like every citizen of the world, she needs togetherness, friendship, love and positive social relationships. In addition, like any other person, she wants a life in which you are valued as a person and receive recognition, in short, to be happy.
Of course, as in any relationship, we have our problems, disagreements, and quarrels. But in that case I am having a fight with a woman and not with a 'Thai woman'. What nonsense! I have a conflict with an individual, with a human being, and not with a culture or a lineage.
I'm not trying to explain her behavior with the term 'cultural difference'. Cultural differences may have some influence on mutual understanding, but they do not determine the needs and values we pursue in life, because they are universal.
We men use the term 'cultural difference' mainly to make it easy for ourselves and also to cover up our own (wrong) behaviour. You don't say when you have a fight with a Dutch woman: “She doesn't understand because she's from Utrecht!
Hence the statement that problems in a relationship due to cultural differences are, in my opinion, utter nonsense. Dutch couples also argue about issues such as money, jealousy and in-laws. This is not unique to people who come from a certain country and is therefore not culturally bound.
But maybe you don't agree. Which can. Tell us and explain to us why you see this differently.
I may not have a relationship with a Thai, but I would like to say that I fully share your approach and view. Those universal values you mention, the needs / desires that everyone has regardless of his or her origin, are really the core around which everything should revolve.
Blaming relationship problems with a Thai (usually woman) on cultural differences is of course nonsense. However, that does not mean that relationship problems are never based on differences in culture. If you have a relationship with a Dutch woman, you may also have relationship problems, but a lot of things are self-evident because you have the same culture, (consciously and unconsciously) the same values and norms. This does not apply if you marry a Thai person. A lot of things that you take for granted are not so for your wife. And vice versa. There are countless examples of this on this blog, such as solving problems, adultery, alcohol consumption, raising children, the family bond, paying a dowry and so on.
If you start a relationship with a Thai, you should realize (and prepare for) that there are cultural differences and that you have to solve them together. I think most relationship problems with a woman from another culture occur when both partners don't realize this enough, interpret things that happen from their own culture (and then judge) and implicitly think that their own culture is better. An open mind for the other and the other culture prevents many problems.
Yes, cultural differences can play a part. But you have to be very rigid if it really wants to cause problems. You always have to give and take in relationships. So if someone has different expectations based on someone's character (in my opinion THE dominant determining factor in interaction between people), culture or language, then this should still be possible with some good will and empathy.
I can't really think of any culture problems that have caused a problem. Well where that would have. For example, my girlfriend wanted to bring a lot of food with her on a regular visit to my parents. I said we don't normally do that here, sometimes a treat can be brought along but bringing half a buffet every time would make people look weird. So we took a little bit with us. But what if she had stood her ground? Or me too? Yes, then you would have had a problem because one partner finds A and the other finds B. But if you give and take and empathize with your partner and other people, you will come to an approach that everyone is satisfied with or can be satisfied with .
I just have a relationship with a woman, a woman with her own character. She doesn't happen to be from around the corner, but from Thailand. That gives a small accent to the relationship, but no more than that.
As for someone's past: someone's work history is usually not that interesting (well, if your partner had a high position, that can also be shown off.. You are not going to tell me that there are no people due to say “yes my wife/husband is director of… Is from a wealthy/important family). Whether you show off the negative or positive past or background of yourself or your partner, yes that depends on your character. Although there will not be many who say “yes I am a whore runner, I have caught many dozens of girls” or “yes, my wife was a whore, she has shared the bed (paid/unpaid) with dozens of men”. There is a strong prejudice to this: whore runners are dirty, hopeless figures and whores are gold diggers. Of course that is not necessary at all, but stereotyped figures and behavior are linked to all activities and careers. If your partner is a judge/lawyer/.. then he/she will be reliable and tidy. If he/she is a garbage collector then he/she will be a bit dumber and crass etc. Those prejudices may have a core of truth far away, but they are not necessarily true. A judge can also be corrupt, and a garbage man can be a very intelligent/wise person who for whatever reason has a “higher” job. Ditto with whore runners and hookers. Understandably you don't flaunt it because it says nothing about an individual person.
That may all be true, but cultural differences are indeed a major problem in intercultural relationships, whether Thais, Americans, Chinese or other nationalities with whom the Dutch enter into a relationship and/or are married.
The less people know and understand each other's cultural habits, the greater the potential for problems.
This is of course further reinforced if people do not sufficiently master the same language together, because then there is no way to talk about it.
And of course just like everywhere, men and women who are in such a problem situation together, whether they are Thai, American, Chinese or other nationalities with whom Dutch people have a relationship problem, will from time to time blame the other, the blaming the situation before finally looking where one should be looking: at one's own contribution to the problem.
Disagree AFTER 12 years in this country, with knowledge of the country & mastery of the language. Unfortunately I don't have much time to answer extensively now, but Thais REALLY come from another planet, 4 years is still too short to see it, wait a few more years until you will also grasp the reality!
Dear Kuhn Peter,
On November 4 last year you wrote in a similar statement:
“I think that Thai women, apart from the cultural differences that explain 'certain behaviour', do not differ substantially from Dutch women”.
Doesn't that explicitly indicate that there are indeed influences from the culture? And of course there are. Shame culture versus guilt culture, you also wrote, and rightly so. Losing face, often completely incomprehensible to us (me), is one of the most common causes of quarrels. This does not only apply to male/female relationships, but to Western-Asian friendships in general.
Many Thais (men and women) have a strange mix of pride versus an innate inferiority complex compared to Westerners. That often does not make living together easy. A lot of swallowing and compliance is the motto if you want to maintain the relationship. I assume this is what you mean by 'certain behavior'. My experience is that this fact can certainly cause relationship problems.
Of course there is a cultural difference, but that's what you choose if you want to go through life together, if you have trouble with a different culture then you just shouldn't start.
Been with my Thai wife for decades and to this day we are as happy as can be,
She sometimes finds certain things strange about Dutch culture and I sometimes find things strange about Thai culture and we talk about that and sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't, you just shouldn't try to impose your culture on the other because then it will work out. mistake just a little give and take! that's it all,
Completely disagree. Two examples.
1) If you have a Thai partner as a ferang, it is often assumed that you too
her family in the broadest sense of the word cares. I think that is in the Netherlands
different and everyone should in principle keep their own pants.
That gives conflicts and tensions within a relationship with a Thai woman.
2) In large Thai families it often happens that one or two daughters play the whore in BKK, Pattaya or Phuket and have to transfer money every month for their family.
you don't often see that in NL that daughters of large families are more or less obliged to play the whore. . If you get involved in this as a boyfriend or husband, you get into a conflict. This is also due to different values and norms.
I think there are many more cultural differences that can cause conflicts in a relationship between a Dutch man and a Thai woman. Every relationship brings problems. A relationship with someone from a completely different culture only makes things more complicated and thus increases the chance of quarrels and conflicts.
I totally agree.
We must learn to love unconditionally, that is not easy, but you must be able to make the other person's happiness your own.
In love, it's all about the other, right?
No, no nonsense.
Cultural differences do play a role, both positively and negatively.
The differences do not necessarily cause problems. But it is possible. Depends on you (and her).
Thai women will also frown upon certain behavior of some Western men. Behavior where I might also think of 'well now', while another western man might think 'what are they worried about'. Where do those differences come from? Education, culture, religion, you name it. But the differences are there and if you know each other longer, you get to know and understand each other better.
An old Dutch proverb says “no one gets a program from the concert of life” and a relationship (with whom or whatever) is also included!
In my opinion, we have differences in mentality and not culture, which means that, for example, a man from Drenthe who has a relationship with a woman from Brabant is a culture difference, so not so. Also applies, in my opinion, to other countries. One in three marriages fails in the Netherlands. Do we have a cultural difference, then no. I don't think Mr. Vince has met the right one yet, but what is the right man or woman? Remember, give and take wherever you are in the world. How many Dutch people have married a Canadian or Australian person who have emigrated. Every person is unique with his or her characteristics and this involves a matter of acceptance. I share the opinion with Khung Peter. No person is the same. I wish you all the very best in your lives.
Jan
Relationship problems due to cultural differences nonsense? YES! spectacular nonsense!
There are always cultural differences, also between Appelscha and Zierikzee and between
2 families living in the same city. Culture stems from history and
the experience of it. By stating that it will give you relationship problems is one
nice coat rack to hang your incapacity on.
My wife and I don't always understand each other's culture, but we agreed
not to talk about it out of emotion. We forget for a while and in the evening on the porch
let's talk about it calmly. In almost all cases we understand the other and often can
laugh heartily. In very few cases not and then we say: this doesn't feel right darling,
we'll have to find a way out. This doesn't have to be today or tomorrow
but let's each think about it. And it always works!! Love is a verb.
Every culture has its good and bad sides. My wife knows that, I know that.
We say it's like a bridge over a chasm, in the beginning each one is on a different side.
In the middle you come together, sometimes you take 2 steps and the other 1 and sometimes the other
2 and you 1. What can also help is not to think that the other person is stupid, but that maybe you are
doesn't explain it well, try another way.
Cultural differences exist, but the golden mean exists by the grace of 2 ends.
Instead of translating everything into (thinking) frameworks, it is possible to develop an appreciation for the difference. Every bird sings as it is beaked and that is beautiful. Explore within yourself (your own inner world) why you are struggling with something, accept that or find another entrance to be aware of it and let go of the frames of mind about how something should be. Gratitude is possible when experience can be shared and that you have been given the right to look into the other person's kitchen and understand the structure of learned response patterns, which have sometimes obscured the needs of the personality. Everything is possible again. What is needed is the willingness to explore, investigate and discover reality.
Evert
Disagree AFTER 12 years in this country, with knowledge of the country & mastery of the language. Unfortunately I don't have much time to answer extensively now, but Thais REALLY come from another planet, 4 years is still too short to see it, wait a few more years until you will also grasp the reality!
This is what Vince wrote at 10.46:XNUMX am
Totally agree with him.
I have been married to a Thai for 13 years and we get along well.
We also have a 3 year old daughter.
But there are huge cultural differences and I now know how to deal with them.
It is inexperience to assume that there are no huge cultural differences and you have to learn to deal with them.
Of course there are differences by culture!!!! For the Thai, a Dutchman (se) is a culture shock and for the Dutchman (se), the Thai is a culture shock!!!! And there is nothing wrong with this if you are aware of this and find a mode to deal with this from both sides!
Cultural differences do exist.
To attribute all relationship problems to that is indeed a bit short-sighted.
But to close your eyes to existing cultural differences will really make mutual understanding more difficult.
I can only recommend purchasing the Thailand Fever book. Both partners read this together (it is written in English with Thai translation).
Not everything described in it applies to everyone, but it is certainly ground for an understanding conversation.
I speak from experience, the book has helped not only myself, but also my wife.
A simple example: in Western culture we have a habit of confronting and speaking out about problems. In Thai culture, on the other hand, this confrontation is avoided. If both partners don't know this about each other, they won't understand that one partner "booms on" about the problem while the other remains silent.
What is culture and what are cultural differences? With regard to the latter, I can give a few examples of greater importance if you live in the west with a Thai wife.
1. the duty of care for the parents
2. education of the children
3. religion
The first 2 can easily be leg breakers in your marriage, the third less so. All three are very clear cultural differences and there are of course more.
If asked, a psychologist will explain to you that cultural differences in your relationship are permanent. It's take it or leave it. This does not alter the fact that such a relationship can certainly succeed with the efforts of both partners. The statement “Relationship problems with a Thai due to cultural differences is nonsense” is rather short-sighted from my 35 years of experience.
When I mention the objective of parents in raising children as a cultural difference that can cause problems, I wonder how many of the respondents on this blog have experience with this. Especially if these children were raised in the Netherlands with the intention of continuing to live and work there.
Are there any participants on this blog who respond to this statement of the day and have had problems with it due to cultural differences? I have not seen any of that, while in my opinion it can be an important subject within a relationship.
Earlier in this blog we wrote about this subject and what differences there are in the upbringing of children in Thailand and Western countries such as the Netherlands. A mixed couple with children in Thailand will have much less to do with existing cultural differences in this respect than a couple with children in the Netherlands.
For me, two reactions stand out, namely those of Roger Stassen and Erik Sr. They really hit the nail on the head! Of course cultural differences play a role. But cultural differences do not only exist across borders, as is suggested here. There are also cultural differences within the Netherlands; just put a Frisian and a Limburger together. What makes it all easier in such a case – assuming that both let go of their dialect for a while – is that people can understand each other and then only understanding and reasonableness still play a role.
The latter also plays a role in an intercultural relationship. If people have little or no understanding of each other's points of view or if they do not see the reasonableness of certain arguments, conflicts can arise. Points of view are indeed influenced by backgrounds (= culture).
In the Netherlands I have also heard so often “there is a certain culture” if one does not feel comfortable with a certain situation. So you see, you don't have to travel far for culture.
In the end, it's all about understanding and patience for and with each other. Unfortunately, it sometimes falls short of that. And modern man would not be modern man if he did not put the problem with someone else. Another culture!
Of course, problems in mixed relationships can arise due to differences in the culture of the partners. It is simply not immediately clear to one person what the other means, let alone that the other immediately experiences the same thing. If only that were true! This is not the case between partners of the same culture.
Many blog readers have to ask themselves why his previous marriage failed, as a result of which he is now hopping around in Thailand, leaving children and grandchildren at home.
Don't arrive with the statement that a relationship between two Dutch partners is the same as between a Dutchman and a Thai. That again requires energy, effort, attention, time and money. The Dutch don't like that last bit.
Behold: sources of potential conflict galore. People, including the Dutch and Thai, think, feel and behave differently. And let that be the biggest problem here on Thailand blog: Thai culture thinks, feels and behaves so differently! The Blog blushes with all the differences. And many who can't handle it. And just shout that it has to be different!
Well, having established that, we can say that problems in relationships arise from the behavior of the partners involved towards each other. This behavior may well be culturally determined. And if we talk about a Dutch-Thai relationship, then that relationship is culturally determined in terms of content. Yes, ... that's what you wanted right?
After all, a Thai partner is so much more caring and subdued? And never a headache in the evening, I once read somewhere on the blog. Also such a cultural difference that many people came to Thailand for.
Culture determines how someone looks at his/her environment. Culture gives interpretation and meaning to that environment. Culture is what someone has in them, inherited through upbringing and socialization, which someone falls back on, especially in the event of problems. A Dutchman who gets into trouble with his Thai partner will not suddenly fall back on universal values, or on Maslov's hierarchy of needs, as once explained by Khun Peter. He falls back on what his parents and educators have taught him, and what he experienced in the years that followed.
It goes back to that which has been internalized, so it is called. He searches within himself for a solution that suits him best. And a Thai does too.
This search for self- yes, it is universal. But that's definitely not the solution. How someone ultimately deals with his problems then depends on his character and personality. And in the latter lies his culture again. If you like: his upbringing, his degree of civilization, his learned solution strategies.
The solution that a Japanese partner chooses in a relationship conflict will look significantly different than if you have an Italian girlfriend.
So in relationships you have to deal with 2 personalities of completely different cut and origin. If it works well, then each of the partners has honest and honest intentions. Starting with getting to know each other's thinking, feeling and behaving. In other words: what is inherent in everyone's culture and background.
It is with these intentions that intercultural relationship conflicts can easily be resolved.
Almost all previously submitted responses make full reference to these intentions, coupled with the firm belief that a mixed relationship can absolutely be given shape. Also the joint resolution of conflicts.
By talking and listening, giving and taking, understanding and understanding each other, allowing and admitting, the will to bridge cultural differences.
The statement that it is nonsense to explain relationship problems on the basis of cultural differences is therefore not true. That is indeed possible, and can be very enlightening!
It is a different matter if the origin, the cause, the explanation, the explanation and the inability to deal with the relationship problems are only attributed to the cultural differences of the other person. If one's own right is immediately added, and the other's is put away. That's where it goes wrong. To dismiss the experienced difficulties with the other on the basis of the prejudices one has, or heard and confirmed from others, yes - that is utter nonsense. In fact, such a person needs to scratch his head!
I think that's what Khun Peter means. And in that he is right.
But relationship problems due to cultural differences? Unavoidable!
Lord Bacchus,
Read the story of Jan who held an earlier opinion. Very similar to Jan's story.
The word culture is nothing but a label to explain differences. There is a need to be able to interpret the environment and that is also too prison, when you do not look over the hedge and perceive that there is infinitely more to this life.
Too bad that many comments are about cultural differences. Especially the confirmation that there are. That has nothing to do with the statement. The proposition is that relationship problems have nothing to do with cultural differences, but are often linked to them.
'Khun Peter, I think your statement is also twofold. In the first part you state (=proposition 1) that relationship problems have nothing to do with cultural differences and in the second part (proposition 2) that cultural differences are often mentioned as the cause of problems that occur. If you disagree with statement 1, then statement 2 is no longer relevant. It seems obvious to me that problems can then be linked to that. I say “can”, because of course not every problem has to be related to a cultural difference. You rightly mention money and jealousy, which cause relationship problems all over the world, so not regionally. I would add sincere, honest, trustworthy, manipulative, productive, selfishness, aggression, efetcetera .
I also think that the concept of culture has a different meaning for many people. In addition, it is also important in which context the word is used (see my earlier response).
In the context of your story, culture to me means "learned behavior and/or use based on geographical origin". So we're actually talking about demographics.
I completely disagree with the first part of your statement. Certain learned behavior or habit can of course always lead to misunderstanding and, in the worst case, to problems or quarrels. You would only get into a relationship with a Nepalese beauty who faithfully – as taught in Nepal – consumes her cup of yak butter tea every morning and spreads an unpleasant, pungent smell for the rest of the day. I can assure you that walking around all day with a peg on the nose can cause problems.
If you add “wrongly” to the second part of your statement after “often”, I can completely agree. All too often you hear and read, also on this blog, that problems are lazily or in self-defense hung on a culture, without further defining this culture. I think reliability is a good example here, because if you can believe everything that is written and said about the Thai, reliability does not exist in Thai culture. Complete nonsense of course, because you also have unreliable people walking around in the Netherlands; take a look around The Hague (cynicism). I don't know any numbers, but I think that in numbers the ratio will not differ much.
I also believe in the psychic evolution that influences our behavior and opinion and with it our ideas about other population groups. Because of this, many Westerners, based on increasing knowledge and prosperity, soon feel superior to other population groups. They think they have the wisdom and therefore the right on their side. I think a good example of this is caring for the parents. Many Westerners find it annoying that the Thai wife pays attention and (financial) care to her family, while this was also perfectly normal in the Netherlands just under 100 years ago. Incidentally, you also see this behavior changing among young people in Thailand. Here, too, it is increasingly about “I”, a phase that we have long since passed. We already know a collective “I” (first me and if there is anything left, then the rest).
Quote Khun Peter: “The proposition is that relationship problems have nothing to do with cultural differences, but are often linked to them.”
If you state the thesis in these 2 sentences and omit all explanation and clarification from your article, then you are quite right. Problems in the relationship with a Thai partner are often and only too happy to be attributed to cultural differences. But we already knew that. You only have to open Thailandblog for that. That is also the easiest.
But what do you think how someone is not in his own relationship, when he talks about how stupid and lazy the Thai people are, that they don't care about life, think murder and manslaughter are normal, and only lie and cheat . To disregard what is said about Thai women, out of respect for them.
Fortunately, the many responses also show how a relationship with a Thai partner is actually experienced by many, that it does not naturally proceed in the same way as with a Dutch partner, that you both have to maintain the relationship just as well with all your efforts, and that that relationship can be healthy, pleasant and full of expectation for both.
The differences in culture are not only dragged in with the hair in the case of individual problems. Also with problems that people experience in dealing with Thai society, so to speak roughly. That use of prejudices, that pinning one's own problems to Thai culture, is an extremely opportunistic attitude.
It is pointing the famous finger at an alleged wrongdoing. Just a moment and you'll raise a middle finger. Apart from the fact that you will then get a lot more problems, you will be at an increasing distance. Nota bene: of the society and culture to which you chose to travel on a voluntary basis.
Living, living, having a relationship in a society like Thailand requires partners to be able to deal with all kinds of differences. Partners must also be able to deal with prevailing prejudices. Prejudices are learned and can therefore be unlearned. (Although Thailandblog is sometimes used to reinforce one's own prejudices!) A Dutch person does not report as Khun Tabula Rasa at Thai border posts. He must make an extra effort, as is also legally expected of the Thai partner when she comes to the Netherlands. The fact that the Thai government has not arranged this is no excuse.
Finally: as a person you should be able to say to the other person: I'm okay, you're okay! And if there are relationship problems, you say: I'm okay, you're okay, but I don't feel completely okay about something in our relationship, and I would like to talk to you about that.
Imagine saying: I'm okay, but you're not okay! Also imagine that you say this about the other person. Or about the other person's culture: my culture is okay, your culture is not okay! The turnips should be well cooked. And yet it is the order of the day!
Regards, Rudolph
Moderator: Your comment has nothing to do with the statement anymore.
Is there a connection between relationship problems and cultural differences? Not according to the statement.
No one will deny that there are major cultural differences between Thai women and Dutch men. Differences in eating habits, living habits, care for parents and other relatives, financial circumstances, religion, manners, etc.
In my opinion, these cultural differences are not the cause of relationship problems. In most cases, life just gets more interesting. But I do see another cause that can cause problems in a Thai-Dutch relationship: lack of communication due to language problems.
Communication is essential in any relationship. Being able to talk to each other and especially being able to listen to each other. As a result, being able to give and take back and forth. If that is not possible, any misunderstanding or disagreement can become an unsolvable problem.
I see the language problem as the main cause of relationship problems. My Thai wife and I have resolved many differences of opinion in recent years, in Dutch.
Dear Peter
I find it really nonsense that you dare to talk about nonsense with regard to an inherent human nature, that (serious and broad) cultural differences naturally lead to frictions between the individuals within a relationship.
After all, it is about very personal developments of different individuals, which are of course very culturally bound.
And the differences between an average Thai and a ditto Westerner are huge. An innocent child can determine that.
There is nothing wrong with that, and I certainly do not claim that one side is more right than the other. Compared to each other, Thais and Westerners, whichever way you look at it, effectively live in completely different worlds.
Again: that does not make one better than the other, and both effectively have the right to choose a life in their own world. As long as they do so with the necessary respect for the other.
And in the case of an intimate relationship, generating that respect will of course take a lot of effort more than once. Especially since that attitude has to come from BOTH sides.
Finally, do you also think it is abnormal (not to say nonsensical) when a Western government protects its citizens (according to its own cultural norms and values), when a (former) partner (or parent) who has another professes culture and denominational ethics, literally violates the basic rights of that subject? I am thinking of eg. Western women who are forced by their partner to convert to his faith, and above all to submit to the absolute hegemony of the man within a relationship, as some religious beliefs not only prescribe, but even impose? Or that those parents arbitrarily decide to move (I dare not say kidnap) their child(ren) who grew up in the west against their own will and that of the other parent?
I know that the comparison is a digression that actually deviates from your basic thesis, but that is precisely why I extend it so widely socially, to show that with personal relationships it becomes even more precarious to dance on a tightrope.
No one should remain blind to their own failures, but to remain blind to crucial and inevitably divergent patterns of behavior of two elements of what one unit should (could) be or become from the different upbringing patterns is downright stupid.
Greetings
Kito
Good article sir Peter. Completely agree. What always surprises me is that men who label their partners as (ex) barmaids forget that in most cases they were apparently bar patrons. For some reason they apparently needed it (then). But “forgetting” your own past is very easy. A beautiful old writing has wanted to teach us a wisdom about an eye, a beam and a mote. But that writing is also too easily forgotten and ignored, especially in “our” so great culture. You are on the right track with this statement of the week. This sound, and so neatly worded, is not heard enough by all those "gentlemen" who came here to seek their (relationship) happiness. A little more respect for the other would adorn these ideal men.
Dear Khan Peter,
I disagree with your argument.
Relationship problems can indeed arise from cultural differences.
It is clear that not all relationship problems arise from cultural differences.
Often words are also hung on it.
If you mean by "making stamps" that people often generalize and then talk negatively about Thailand and the Thais, then I completely agree with you.
That annoys me too.
But that does not mean that there are no cultural differences between Thais and Westerners.
And I am convinced that because of those cultural differences in a relationship problems can arise (mind you, CAN arise).
I don't think it's wise to try to brush this off.
For example, you write: “I have a relationship with a woman. She happened to be born in Thailand.”
As if it also stops with just being born in Thailand .
That does mean that she comes from a completely different culture and therefore had a completely different upbringing and thinks differently about a lot of things than a Western woman.
There's nothing wrong with that, you don't have to do anything about it. At some points you can even be happy with it.
But I have experienced myself that this can cause problems in a relationship.
I have been in a relationship for 10 years now and have been married for 8 years now, live in Thailand and am still happy with my Thai wife who I wouldn't want to miss for the world.
So I can call myself an expert by experience
In the beginning more often and now sometimes we have been confronted with these kinds of problems because of our different views on certain matters.
And those were mostly things I did with my first wife in NL. was always in line.
Fortunately, this has hardly ever led to serious collisions and we have still been able to compromise.
Now we are both a bit older and have both been married for many years
back, so both have lived in a family situation with children before.
I do think that this has certainly helped to resolve the differences of opinion caused by cultural differences.
But I can also imagine that many marriages fail there.
I don't think it's wise to pretend these problems don't exist, it's better to recognize them, then you can do something with them.
The fact that you have different views may be because you yourself have not yet been confronted with them in your relationship.
I understand that you and your girlfriend don't live together all the time.
Every year for a few months in a holiday atmosphere just enjoying life.
I can imagine that you are on a pink cloud and only have eyes for each other and enjoy each other.
And that's how it should be in this phase of your life.
But if you are ever together constantly and live here in Thailand , and you have to deal with the issues of everyday life , that is another chapter
Then you should respect her views, even if they are not yours, and try to understand each other's points of view.
I will mention a few that are thought of differently in Thailand than in the west.
It may all seem trivial now, but wait until you are confronted with it.
Raising the children (bedtime, sitting together at the table for meals, sex education.}
Dealing with family relationships. (family relationship plays a much more important role here than with us.}
The role of the grandparents in the family. (Grandmother's opinion is very important.)
Getting criticized. (loss of face)
Standing up for your right. (fear of offending someone else.)
Keeping agreements. (Thai time.}
Not discussing problems quickly. (If you don't name them, they don't exist.)
And I can name a few more that Thais and Westerners think differently about and that can certainly be the cause of relationship problems.
Leo Bosch.
When I sometimes read this and other clichés, I wonder whether the average Dutch person and average Thai should indeed come from another planet or whether my girlfriend (and I?) come from yet another planet. The only disagreements and conflicts can all be traced back to personality and circumstances. My girlfriend always says very directly what she wants or thinks, also regarding my behavior and actions. For example, “you spend too much time on the internet” or “you have to clean more” (in less good Dutch than this because she has only been here six months). So if I do something wrong, I am immediately told succinctly what I am doing wrong. If I may believe many readers, “the Thais” cannot tolerate this and do not do anything about it. I give my criticism more subtly (she will also be able to do that as her vocabulary grows). to people, including my partner. Never had any real problems with it either. At most a grumble when I say “You also play on Facebook a lot, and you don't let me use the internet that much”. But we can laugh about that again.
She is also punctual, an agreement is an agreement and time is time. If I am late I will be told. If we are in Thailand and we make an appointment with someone who then arrives late, she says so. If we meet at 10 o'clock you have to be there at 10 o'clock, when I say that the traffic might be stuck in the center of Krungthep, they answer with “they are always late”. If she (doesn't) want something from me or someone else, she will let me know.
We don't have children (yet), but some Thai friends with a child who also goes to bed on time, I have never had any comments. But given my girlfriend's character, I can fill in what she says when I ask if bedtime is really bedtime. We also eat together at the table. She herself recognizes that she has had little or no sexual education in Thailand as a shortcoming. She does have more criticism about what could be better or crazy in Thailand (about politics, police, civil servants, …).
No, I attribute the exchanges that there are 80-90% to her and my character, the rest almost entirely to language problems and maybe a percentage or 1-2 to culture. But we didn't have any real fights. We simply communicate, understand each other's point of view (empathy, etc.). Books like Thai Fever have been of no use to me, which simply boils down to “empathize with others” and “communication” plus a laundry list of clichés about “the farang” and “the Thai” that I can hardly link back to myself or my partner. But maybe my partner and I are very unique. 555
I have to cut off now, my girlfriend says we have to go out in 5 minutes. 😉
Friend, leo. I can only give you 1 rating, but you deserve ten. I too have been married for eight years now and have a 15-year-old (step) son who, thanks to me, understands the two cultures.
A thousand and one words written on it. All different opinions. We can't figure it out. It was a nice discussion, but everyone tastes his own. That's life and if it's different you won't get out, because that's what we're people for.
I don't think relationship problems have much to do with cultural differences.
How far do you want to go in a relationship, what do you have in common that is the key to success.
How many marriages fail in the Netherlands and that would have nothing to do with culture.
The big problem is that in my opinion people today have little to do for each other, every difference of opinion is used to make you right.
In a relationship it is not about who is right, the art is to appreciate each other.
So most of the problems we cause ourselves are also relationship problems and that has more to do with character than with culture.
Dear Khun-Peter:
I totally DISAGREE with your statement [relationship problems@culturebackground].You already mentioned it in your salutation.Personally, I am originally from Hagenees/my mother is from Friesland.Having been to her village several times, I sense there already cultural differences compared to The Hague. Just look at all the hot food at noon and there are many more differences / now we only talk about the Netherlands.
The fact if you have a Thai girlfriend like Farang who is always number "together = 3" starts with that! 1=family.2=buddha.3=the Farang, you have to adapt yourself quite a lot for that/or be so crazy about your girl that you almost forget yourself and I do indeed have a lot of trouble with that! And as several have already written on this statement: we'll talk to each other again in a few years / see what you think about it!
Gr; Willem Schev…
Dear Mr William,
Another non-existent template created from my own experience. One's own experience is not the right template for “it is”. I have been married for 11 years to a Thai woman (not a "girl", some respect is also in order here) and of course there are cultural differences (even within The Hague, you don't have to go to Friesland for that; take the Binnenhof and the Schilderswijk) , but the statement was that, according to the writer, unjustly, relationship problems are usually attributed to this. Nothing number 3 in our house or within our relationship. We give each other the space that we both need in our marriage. That is the way in which marriages between 2 Dutch people can also run smoothly. And that's how it goes here in Thailand (with us). Whose deed!!
I agree with Peter that relationship problems have little to nothing to do with cultural differences and I particularly agree with Rob V.'s comment above.
Persons and personalities are shaped by many factors. Perhaps the most important is heredity, as well as upbringing, education, occupation, gender and cultural influences. It is not possible to separate all these influences from each other and it is impossible to say that certain traits have to do with the culture. And those traits are what relationship problems are all about.
Let me give an example. The Thai culture is on average less assertive than the Dutch one. A Dutch person is more likely to say no and express his/her unvarnished opinion. Yet there are many assertive Thais (I think of Minister Chalerm, he is non-Thai aggressive and assertive) and many non-assertive Dutch people. There are many Thais who are very similar in personality to the Dutch, and vice versa, with personal traits that sometimes go directly against what that culture prescribes.
So when you pass judgment on relationship problems and on the people involved, it makes no sense to involve the culture. Just look at the people involved, how they are and how they interact with each other. Forget that cultural background for a moment. By constantly bringing in the culture (“typically Thai”) you disrupt good communication, you no longer look at the person but at an abstract idea behind it that probably does not apply to that individual at all.
Cultural judgments are fun in scientific research and conversation but are completely useless for judging a concrete, individual situation between two people.
Sense and nonsense. You look pretty monkey if your own position is dismissed as nonsense. So things are heating up, or am I the only one who feels this way? Possible Cause: The topic broached is so essential to most on this forum. Why? Because many of us have a Thai girlfriend, wife or ex-wife. So we are all experts by experience or should be.
The reactions we write down are therefore inspired by things we have experienced ourselves. It is my position that cultural differences are the cause of small and large relationship problems and it is completely contradictory to those who claim the opposite. Mind you, I don't just talk off the top of my head, I don't spout 'nonsense', on the contrary. My opinion has been formed, slowly and steadily, through my own experiences, experiences of people around me... (is 20 years enough?) I recently had someone visit with his new Chinese bride. Yes, again the same stories of major cultural differences that caused friction and tension... and please stop claiming that this is due to poor communication. Wrong!, they both speak English at a high level
So I have a hard time with those who casually claim that it is only about character and universal relationship problems.
You learn to deal with character differences in the course of a relationship. Over time, you know each other so well that this is no longer an obstacle. It is the same with cultural differences. But they crop up regularly and the adjustment takes effort and perseverance on both sides. In our case that worked out quite well and I wish that to everyone from Julie.
Roger
When I go through all the responses again, I cannot escape the impression that everyone has their own perception of the word culture. I have already stated this in a previous comment. This naturally leads to an endless, if not pointless, discussion.
What actually is culture (in the context of behavior) and how does it come about? Culture is nothing more and/or less than generally accepted behavior within a given community. Behavior is in turn determined by generally accepted norms, values, opinions, beliefs, etc. within that community. A community can be a family, a neighborhood, a city, a province, a country, a region or a continent. You even have cultures in departments within a company or within companies themselves. In fact, you already have a Facebook culture; people who hardly know each other, but are attracted to each other by sharing certain views.
Cultures can develop very quickly. Take youth cultures, for example. The Lonsdale youths were attracted to each other by certain (aggressive, racist) behaviour. They had their own language and signs; wore the same clothes and had the same hairstyle.
Coming back to the statement. It is, of course, complete nonsense to assume that every inhabitant on our planet is the same. Well, if you do not go beyond the primary needs, such as eating, drinking and sleeping, we will soon be done. Incidentally, I also dare to say that there are “cultural” behavioral differences. For example, the Vietnamese like to eat a black dog, which is slowly strangled for it. I have not yet seen the butchers in the Netherlands do that. The Chinese use bile from bears that are painfully extracted from these animals. No one in Vietnam or China is surprised by that. Culture or not?!
Love, security, affection are also seen as universal by the proponents of this statement. True, we all need it, only the way in which it is expressed can differ greatly. Certainly never been to Pakistan, India or Africa. There, young girls are still married off “out of love” and some gentlemen own several wives “out of love”. Now I can already hear the gentlemen shouting: “That has nothing to do with love, security or affection!”; this, of course, viewed through its own culture glasses. However, it is normal and accepted there. Not even the government is doing anything about it! Culture or not?!
Of course it happens that relationships between Thai ladies and Western gentlemen go well, but you can't tell me that there are no differences in norms, values or views. The fact that in some cases they never lead to problems only says something about the EQ of these people; no more and no less.
Another nice practical example. My wife has lived and worked in the west for over 35 years, a large part of which in the Netherlands. She speaks Dutch, English and of course Thai. Was very assertive in the Netherlands. She had to, because she was a manager at a multinational. Since we live here she has fallen back into the culture of status. In the Netherlands she had no problem replying to a superior. Here someone of prestige or high-ranking official has to make it very colorful, if she wants to go out of her beautiful bun again "old-fashioned". When I ask why she sometimes reacts so resignedly, I get the answer: "That's how they do it in Thailand!"
In short, there is no such thing as a universal human being. You do have people who are very adaptive and can therefore quickly ground themselves everywhere. They can be found in every population group. Almost every relationship problem can be traced back to differences in norms, values, opinions or behaviour. Almost all of these things are dictated by a culture. That can be a sub-culture or have an ethnic background. So it is universal nonsense to assume that culture does not influence relationships.
If you think about it carefully, this position is as easy as that of the gentlemen who hang every problem on the cultural coat rack.
This reaction of Bacchus corresponds most closely with my own experiences over a period of more than 35 years living in various countries. It also shows that different forms of interaction can arise between the culture inherited from the upbringing and the culture of the country of residence. That makes it all even more complicated and also more interesting.
In the 10 years that I lived with my Thai wife in the Netherlands, her adjustment process took much longer and was less complete than her adjustment in the following 16 years in the US. There she went to school entirely of her own accord and then started her own business. The latter was also purely self-development because it was not necessary for the money. She eventually arranged her purchases completely independently and flew across the country on her own when necessary. American culture is very open to newcomers. I think those were the best years for her and she still talks from time to time about how happy she was there.
We have now been living in Thailand for 10 years and always stay there most of the year. We are very happy together again. What I have experienced is that my wife has become completely “Thai” again. Somehow to my surprise I watched this, but I am glad that Bacchus had a similar experience. What is rewarding for her in Thailand now is the way she is respected when Thais become familiar with her background of what she has done and experienced in the last 35 years.
I would like to make the comment here that I have had a great life with my Thai wife in all those countries and still have. I am convinced that I could hardly ever have done that with a western woman.
Erik, that respect you speak of, my wife does indeed enjoy here too. She has clearly acquired a completely different status in Thailand. Then I don't talk about financially, because her family had and is well off here, but especially in terms of knowledge. She is consulted inappropriately and inappropriately when there are problems in our village. She is just not asked for medical advice, but it makes a big difference.
For the time being, it seems that those who vote against the proposition have an advantage over those who agree. It now focuses on the question: do cultural differences play a role in relationship problems, or are they the characters of the partners? Many tend more towards the former. I have also argued that. In fact, cultural differences play a role in all problems, can cause them, but can also solve them.
Tino Kuis tries to bring the statement and the discussion back to the original intended proportions. Good thing, too. We plunge so true into a cultural-sociological consideration of Thai-Dutch relationship problems.
In the “concrete, individual situation between two people”, as Tino Kuis reads the proposition, the nature and character of the persons concerned play their part. Beats! It makes quite a difference whether you are compliant and compliant or stubborn and stubborn. Thinking that you can prove yourself right by dismissing the problem as 'typically Thai', or attributing it to the cultural difference with the other person, is of course a dead end.
Characters differ. You will encounter numerous characters throughout your life. That makes life exciting. Characters are the result of heredity, upbringing and environment.
It should thus be clear that people differ from each other in all kinds of ways - and that is precisely what connects them.
It's up to the different characters to come out with their different personalities and cultures.
Beats. An umbrella term such as cultural differences can of course never be the cause of relationship problems. Everything revolves around the individual. The empathy and personalities of partners are more determinative of any relationship problems.
In my opinion, a Thai woman does not differ essentially from a Dutch one. Every woman or man wants love, understanding, appreciation and recognition. Whatever country you were born in.
Indeed, a container concept can never be the cause of a problem. To solve a problem, you will have to be able to isolate and name the cause. When you want to convict a criminal, you don't have to go to court and then shout: "he has committed a crime". Also a container concept. Very simplistic!
Why do sciences such as anthropology, ethnography and demography exist? Because everyone shows the same behavior, has the same needs, has the same norms and values? So no! If that were the case, political parties such as the PVV, for example, would not arise!
It is clear that people show different behavior and have different norms and values based on their origin (= culture). Wouldn't it be possible that certain deviant behavior or a certain deviant norm or value could be the cause of a relationship problem? Naturally! You have to come from a completely different planet, as some already think of themselves, to deny that.
The fact that Thai women do not differ essentially from Dutch women is also seriously short-sighted. Why are so many Western men looking for a woman in distant Thailand? Is this just about looks or about the fact that you can still hook up with a 19-year-old here in middle age? Good basis for a solid relationship!
Characteristics (=personality) of a person are also co-determined by origin (and therefore culture). Character is thus co-determined by ethnicity. The character traits of an average Eskimo will be completely different from those of an average Arab. Empathy, for example, is one such character trait.
It is a scientific fact that there are cultural – concerning behaviors; norms and values; character; opinions – are differences between population groups. It is evident that these can lead to problems in relationships between people of different origins. I say can, because there are probably hundreds of other causes for relationship problems that have nothing to do with origin, such as aggression.
In order to understand problems, you must be able to name the causes. The container concept of cultural differences is very comprehensive and therefore indeed not sufficient. It therefore shows serious short-sightedness to label every problem within a mixed relationship as such, as well as to deny that there are any.
and Hans,
The great thing is that if we live in the here and now there is no routine, because then we experience what is there at the moment and that is new every time. Also in the relationship.