Statement of the week: NL financial institutions would rather lose you than rich if you move to Thailand
Globalisation, the disappearance of national borders and deregulation on a global scale, is a development that cannot be stopped. Strangely enough, the (financial) authorities in the Netherlands seem to think differently. If you are no longer registered in the Netherlands, you risk becoming a kind of 'outcast'.
The world is getting smaller, we easily fly from continent to continent and thanks to the internet we can easily communicate with the other side of the world. That is precisely why you would expect it to become increasingly easier to arrange your affairs if you move from the Netherlands to Thailand, for example. Unfortunately, that kite does not fly, because whether it concerns a health insurance policy, bank account or investment account, they prefer to get rid of you when you go abroad.
We received a message via Hans Bos that a reader's financial institution, in this case Nationale Nederlanden, had adjusted the conditions and informed us that if you move abroad, his investment account can be closed (see image above).
Earlier we reported that ABN-AMRO wished to terminate the bank account of Dutch people in Thailand.
It therefore seems that the Dutch financial service providers would rather lose you than rich. After all, moving to Thailand can lead to your account being closed.
On the other hand, you can also reason that if you choose to live in another country, you also have to accept the consequences.
What do you think about that?
Join the discussion about the statement of the week: Dutch financial institutions would rather lose you than be rich if you move to Thailand.
The word 'rich' in the title says it all. If you are rich, the doors will open automatically. Do you have a pension or benefits and they can't earn anything from you, then you're out of luck. Abandon the idea that a bank is a service institution. They make a profit and it goes to those closest to the fire. Don't be angry about it, just keep it in mind if you move to Thailand and think of a good alternative in advance.
Living in Cambodia, the ABN-AMRO has also canceled my bank account. I also had to cancel my subscription with the Staatsloterij, because you are not allowed to participate with a Cambodian bank account and you are not registered in the Netherlands, even if you are a Dutch citizen.
The same with my Staatsloterij, however, I just have a bank account with ING, which has been debited for many years. I was informed in the second instance that I can participate if I have a postal address in the Netherlands. At first I was informed that I can no longer play because I live abroad. And then it is no longer legally allowed, they say. How the wind blows….
Bert, very logical indeed. How can the state lottery perform a direct debit at a Cambodian bank? Even without asking who should pay the costs.
I play in the State Lottery with direct debit from ING and have never had a problem with that. I too have been unsubscribed.
The State Lottery has the option of a personal wallet
(wallet), you can deposit money there yourself to buy lottery tickets, but I was not allowed to play from that wallet either.
Well that's great then, the state lottery wants to cancel because we have left the Netherlands since November 1. So it is already done by the state lottery itself, saves me another phone call.
i have been living in france for 21 years and i still play the state lottery!
Outside the EU, that's what it's all about!
I think that's ridiculous, as long as a client fulfills his obligations, they still earn from us!
I also pay for my bank cards, and all kinds of increases every time, okay, I take that for granted, and then they earn a nice amount every time you withdraw money from the wall with your ned.pas, my bank earns from me almost daily, because I is trading shares worldwide and those are nice commissions for them that they put in their pocket without any risk. See, they don't extend mortgages or loans to people who have left seems logical to me. By the way, they have virtually no costs to us, because everything is done digitally, calling is at our own expense, chatting applies to everyone, it's just a bank card that costs more for them in terms of shipping costs, greeting William.
You are absolutely right. In fact; many financial institutions are already wholly or partly in foreign hands, so that will not be the problem. The only conceivable thing is that the legal arm is not so easy to reach out to Thailand in case of problems.
People are increasingly becoming a revenue model and if the yield is not high enough, you no longer count.
If these banks or institutions think they have to do too much, their revenue model will be jeopardized.
You see it everywhere I'm curious to see where we will be in 10 years, but I see it gloomy.
The word human does not appear in their dictionary and everything is the result of exhorbitant capitalist thinking.
Our world is rapidly falling apart at the hands of greedy shareholders and hedge funds.
They are still stimulated in this by governments.
Man means $$$$$$$ in their eyes
I have not yet received a letter from NN about this, while I have quite a lot of annuities and single premiums with an end date in 7 years. So will wait. This all comes from the requirements of the European uni Mifid 2, which was also the reason for ABN-AMRO. Long live the EU, I say.
I am lucky, as of January 1, 1, my protective assessment must be exempt from tax, so if they have to pay out or without any deduction, a request will be submitted if necessary. NN also knows that I live in Thailand.
Also not yet canceled at investment bank Binck and the Giro, but had to provide information and at Binck even my Thai tax number.
Also of course I was already screwed with ABN-AMRO and that was an active account with more than enough funds, but was simply cancelled. In September I opened a new account with ING at my Thai address with a transfer service for automatic payments that I had, just super well arranged and a slightly better bonus interest at ING as well.
In my opinion regarding NN, which changes the conditions in the interim, this will only apply to investments still to be made if you invest monthly, I do not think this is possible for long-term contracts, because they have charged costs and commission until the end of the contract, of which I prove in your hands and they don't lie about it. But will check my old policy conditions once I'm in the Netherlands and I get a letter from NN.
Even if you also want to buy 100 homes in the Netherlands, that is no problem at all, then that should also be prohibited for people outside the EU. Thought that the EU stood for 1 world with as few borders as possible, so it turns out to be dictators who want to draw all power to themselves or demand it.
I know from experience that you have to buy off an annuity if you live.
The insurance stole a standard 52% tax payment. And if the benefit exceeds 4300 euros, you will also have to pay 20% revisionary interest.
By means of a tax return in that year, you will get a large part back because you are not insured for national insurance contributions.
The reason is that no insurance company or bank wants to purchase an annuity for the part saved.
The tax for the first and second bracket is now around 10%
René,
Don't think what you're saying is quite right.
In the first place, an annuity is used to purchase pension years or monthly benefits in the period with a low tax rate, so AOW age. This is not necessary, but it is a starting point. Most insurers have to pay out in one go because they are not allowed to make monthly payments for people outside the EU, or say they do not have a foreign permit for this. 1 insurer in NL does have this, by the way, but is hindered by our government.
Before I emigrated I requested the values of the policies, this in connection with emigration and the insurer knows that too. You must state these values in the M form of the declaration. You will then receive a protective assessment of many euros, but you do not have to pay that if you do not add it for 10 years. After those 10 years you can ask for an exemption or they give that for the policies, so they are tax exempt and also for the revisionary interest.
If the policies expire before those 10 years, you can reinvest them, for example via bank savings, the point is that you do not have access to the funds and that the expiring policy refers to the new policy or bank savings product.
What I understand from what happened is that this is caused by laws and regulations regarding money laundering.
In addition, banks appear to run financial risks.
Don't ask me which one, because that didn't become clear to me in the conversation.
I was in the Netherlands some time ago, and I managed to close an account with both Rabobank and ING.
So for the time being I have 3 current accounts, hoping that at least 1 account will remain usable.
The account of the ABNAMRO was supposed to be blocked by the ABNAMRO at the end of this month, but in the meantime I have taken out a 10-year deposit of 500 euros with this bank, so in theory I cannot close my account with the ABNAMRO .
I have also filed the statement with ABNAMRO that I do not live in Thailand, but that they should see me as a world traveler who has canceled his rent and is staying in Thailand for a longer period of time during his trip.
After all, I do not have a permanent residence permit and could live in Japan tomorrow (the day after tomorrow), or in the Netherlands.
That letter has never been answered.
So we just wait and see what happens next.
I have transferred part of the savings to Rabo and ING, so a blockage of my money will not immediately cause problems for me and I can therefore wait and see how the game at ABNAMRO will develop further.
I went to a head office at Rabobank and explained the problem there.
They wanted to close an account there, but they wanted to know first how much money I brought.
Apparently that was enough.
I also received no guarantee that Rabobank would not discharge its customers outside Europe in the future.
But nothing was known about that at the office.
At that point I could just open an account, after a laundry list of questions, about the origin of my money and other things.
I closed the ING account at a service point.
There was little (no) knowledge available for an account in Thailand, but we succeeded.
The advantage was that no one asked how much money I brought.
Still, a head office can be better, because then they can have all the stuff sent to the head office and later change the address to your address in Thailand.
That did not go well for me, because I could not provide an address in the Netherlands when I was at the service point and entered my Thai address.
That meant that I could not have completed everything in the Netherlands, and had to wait and see whether it would work out well when I was back in Thailand.
However, that went smoothly.
I was also asked for my tax number in Thailand when applying for the bills.
It is therefore useful to have this at hand, which I obviously did not have and which I had to go through with expensive phone calls to the tax office in Thailand, with a prepaid card from KPN.
Incidentally, that tax number does not seem to be required to open an account.
The tax number in Thailand (TIN) is not the 13-digit number (PIN) of the Thai ID card and which is in the yellow booklet.
It is a 10-digit number, which is linked to that 13-digit number at the Thai tax authorities.
You can use that 13-digit number in Thailand, but it is probably better to use the 10-digit number in the Netherlands.
This information is 2 months old, so things may have changed in the meantime.
Ruud,
My ABN-AMRO account, which I deliberately did not cancel and still has a balance, has been blocked. Can log in, but no money transfers at all and nothing comes in anymore, is just sent back. What they do is charge 1,40 every month for your debit card. So actually absurd, abn blocks account, but they just take their own payment even though it is blocked.
I was also able to open an account at Rabo but also at SNS, ING was not asked about origin money, but Rabo was and SNS was. Luckily I had my TIN number with me.
I deliberately chose ING because it works more on a global scale and Rabobank has also indicated that they will also have to close the accounts of people outside the EU in 1 to 2 years.
I also think that this will apply to all banks and investment banks in the EU, in the not too distant future.
In 2013, all my deposits with Robeco were canceled in 1 go and the funds were transferred to my contra account, which then went under the guise of we do not have a risk profile for you and we cannot accept it because you live outside the EU.
The date on the letter that I have to close my account is dated 29-06 and the notice period is 6 months.
The ABNAMRO will therefore block my account on 29-12 at the earliest.
But for now I have not had an answer to the objection I made, that I still have a deposit for 10 years and that I am not an immigrant in Thailand.
So I have no idea what's going on.
And luckily I now have two reserve accounts, which contain enough money to be able to move forward for the time being, so I am not under pressure from the ABNAMRO if they block my account.
Of course I have 3 times bank costs, but that will not make me poor, although it is of course wasted money.
Are your bank cards still usable for withdrawing money, or do they not work either?
If they don't do anything, I would object to writing off the costs.
Possibly with the supervisor.
Don't make it too easy for the bank.
I'm not going to check my bank card here, but on October 24 I tried to withdraw money at Schiphol and that was no longer possible with the abn card, but with my ing card, so I didn't worry about that.
I don't worry about the debit, I left 2 cents on the bill and the other one is still 43 cents, they're just looking at it. It's my money so they can't take it away.
Wrong. Balance is transferred to a suspense account upon cancellation and is available to the former account holder.
Dear people,
I too live outside the Netherlands as an economic refugee. My state pension and a small pension from working are paid monthly into my Rabo account. Tax and contributions are withheld from this pension. By the State of the Netherlands. It seems to me that as a result of these payments I have the same rights as all other Dutch people. Or has the constitution been changed. Equal rights for every citizen / Everyone with the Dutch Nationality.
And of course an institution such as ABN / AMRO and others who have managed to survive on that tax money will try to get rid of you. Shouldn't we even pass a law that after your 65th year of life you are entitled to a severance scheme, If you live outside the Netherlands, The directors of these institutions also cash in on departure and not so frugal .. Every day I see you on TV register and vote from the abroad. Let's do this en masse. Surely there is a politician who wants to grow and pick up this item for the job of a lifetime.
I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a prosperous 2018.
Regards Anthony.
Too bad for your reasoning is that you have no constitutional right to a bank account………
We bet that if I, living in Thailand, go to a Dutch bank with a few million, I will be accepted. Also get used to the fact that as a Dutch person you are increasingly discriminated against by the government. For example, I have to pay 321 euros three times for an application for a residence permit for my Thai wife and her two children, while someone with Turkish nationality only pays 64 euros per person. The Dutch are already being discriminated against in their own country and especially if you go to live abroad.
The statement reads: “NL financial institutions would rather lose you than get rich if you move to Thailand”
This absolutely does not apply to the Dutch tax authorities, after all also a financial institution, which is only too happy to maintain its financial line with the Dutchman who has left for Thailand !!
:
A few years ago I also lived outside Europe and I had a postal address in the Netherlands so I could keep an account, but I don't know if this has changed.
At the ING.
It is very frustrating that you as an individual are not taken seriously.
Whether that is at the government or at financial institutions, the regulations can be changed despite previously established agreements.
The government obliges people to pay off the mortgage, once this is done, the new future regulation is that payment must be made again.
Oade ABN-Amro no longer wishes to have people who live outside Europe as customers.
Unilateral changes without being able to do anything about it.
A kind of European MeeToo movement of citizens should be set up, which makes Brussels realize that citizens are getting fed up and are going to act!
Now try again to buy an immediate annuity in the Netherlands if you have emigrated. Until about halfway through 2014 that was still possible, but now no bank or insurer is willing to do so. Surrender and pay revisionary interest is the motto. Inlayed for decades, to finally get the lid on the savings nose.
We are increasingly seeing the true face of financial institutions. In fact, they are there to earn money from us and that has never been different. It is now being taken to the extreme. Certainly for the target group that has its actual residence outside the Netherlands and even more so outside the EU. That was then and that is now. A profession with its own identity that you have to fit into in order to work there. So not my profession. No, the tendency to make each other's lives miserable and to deploy and implement all kinds of things like this has become core business. I hope that those responsible can still look at themselves in the mirror without too much shame. We will have to make do with a group without scruples.
Last week I contacted 3 of my pension payers and you inquire about the direction in this whole story and that is …. precisely the government, which has many more plans because recently the SVB has also changed bankers, namely Rabo has now become the house banker, so they want to, and the bank of the state is no longer part of his pension enjoying old age in Thailand the Dutchman has closed the door THANK YOU KABINET AND ABNAMRO.
I hope that this mouse DAN also gets a tail for the KABINET .
Why should a Dutch institution have to make an effort (and costs) to give a Dutch person who leaves the Netherlands and therefore clearly shows that he or she is much better off elsewhere, with all the benefits of a customer living in the Netherlands? ? Of course, a bank, insurance company, etc. is NOT a philanthropic institution but a profit-driven business. Of course, if you showed up with millions of Euros, the door was open, just like any bank in the Cayman Islands, Barbados, Hong Kong, Singapore and whatever they're called.
You have indicated that you have it better elsewhere, so… just complain to yourself.
You have a strange reasoning.
No one argues that the bank should incur costs for emigrants.
They could offer an emigrant account at an emigrant price.
Emigrating is not like giving up your nationality.
Emigrating is going to live somewhere where you hope to be happier than you are.
But if I extend your reasoning about banks – because why limit business to banks.
How would you feel if Bayer does not want to supply you with a medicine because you do not live in Switzerland?
Yes, enough whiners when it comes to things like having a Dutch bank account. It is easier for me so that I can receive my Dutch income on it and pay my Dutch taxes and my Dutch private insurance from it, among other things. I can say that I make a nice contribution to Dutch society. I would like people to complain about being taxable. I have not heard anyone talk about the fact that the vast majority of Dutch people abroad are and will remain liable for Dutch tax. I don't think there are many whiners who are going to support that. But oh woe if you have a Dutch bank account or private health insurance from a Dutch insurer that is separate from the social system, then that is suddenly not possible, because people think that you could "benefit".
This creates a breeding ground for 'alternatives' such as bitcoin or Paypal.
Didn't I read recently that a new digital currency is coming? And who makes that coin? The joint banks.
All in all, for me, ING is the best institution for all your financial income, what are you paying attention to transfer all your financial aspects from Abn/Amro to InG together? See what happens to the Abn/Amro.
You can only switch to ING if you are in the Netherlands.
And not everyone is financially, or because of his health, or age, in a position to fly back and forth to the Netherlands.
It is mainly the elderly with little money who experience the most problems from the ABNAMRO action.
If you have a very fat wallet and if necessary for your health you can fly first class to go to the Netherlands, you probably have few problems.
If necessary, you can also contact a large international bank in Luxembourg.
I cannot support or reject the statement in general.
I moved to Thailand 10 years ago, work here for a university with a monthly Thai salary, no longer pay any taxes in the Netherlands but in Thailand, had and still have an account with the ING Bank (address change to an address in Thailand no problem) , bank online with and within the Netherlands and I have not encountered a single problem in 10 years.
This is not new at all, it has always been the case in the Netherlands. As soon as you are deregistered, all kinds of authorities require you to cancel your bank account, including the SVB, etc. If you have debts, these must first be paid off before you can leave. Their reasoning is that “otherwise you are not really gone, which is not possible”.
When you come back, you must first be registered at the same address for 6 months (now 3) in order to be recognized as a full Dutch citizen again. You cannot, for example, divorce or start a lawsuit and do other things in those 6 months (now 3). There are even Mobile phone companies that are difficult and want to see some explanation. Speak from experience.
Completely disagree.
In the Netherlands we live in a modern society, with rights and obligations for everyone.
If you first open a bank account in the Netherlands, the bank and you accepted the rights and obligations. One of the most important parts of a banking relationship is good, and sometimes mandatory, communication.
For example, as a customer you will have to clearly prove your identity, and the bank must warn customers in the event of changes to the internal regulations or increases in costs. In the event of problems, this may even have to be done via registered/registered mail.
If someone then unilaterally decides to move outside Europe, which can be Thailand, but also somewhere in a godforsaken region on this globe, you break the good relationship. The bank or financial institution then has every right to regard this as a form of breach of trust.
How often do you hear Thailand residents complain that no mail arrives? Same for Laos or Vietnam. And with mandatory communication by a bank with the customer, this can cause many problems if the letters sent are returned to the bank. I have heard stories from Dutch people in Pattaya what the postman pays to make registered shipments disappear. And then complain about the bad postal service in Pattaya. Or customers who indicate for privacy reasons that they do not have internet in their remote location. How can a bank carry out the mandatory communication with a customer if the customer knowingly sabotages all forms of communication?
These people wish to profit from the financial institutions, and make us in the Netherlands pay for the costs they cause.
That is why I think it is very good, even a duty of the government/financial/European institutions, not to let compatriots living in the Netherlands pay for the costs incurred by residents in countries outside Europe.
They may as well open a bank account in the country of residence.
Are usually also the same people who do everything they can to spend their last money on sex, drugs and Rock & Roll. If everything goes well, they raise the middle finger to the compatriots who have to work to make ends meet. But do they get sick, or do they get a bill, do they come begging with open hands from their compatriot who they laugh at and who they consider stupid.
On the other hand, the person who maintains good contacts with his bank, who does not pose a risk to the institution, will be able to remain a customer. But you can still hardly condemn a bank if they have to take annoying measures to protect people living in the Netherlands.
Another piece that drips with total nonsense and is mainly based on ' hear and say '. Complete assumptions. It also includes the suggestion that the people who are affected by the fact that one has to close bank accounts, and therefore suffer from this, do so at the expense of those who work in the Netherlands. The suggestion that they would never have worked themselves has thus been put forward. In addition, they also have sex drugs and rock and roll as a life motto because you complain about having to close your bank account, the logic is very hard to find.
I'm always looking at the narrow-mindedness that I encounter here. It is also a good reminder why I left the country with “nagging” as its national sport. If it were an Olympic event, the Netherlands would definitely be the unsurpassed winner.
I am surprised that Martijn van Maastricht's post has been placed here. I think this article is written in a way that is not allowed by the rules of Thailandblog. It is full of lies and baseless accusations.
Are usually also the same people who do everything they can to spend their last money on sex, drugs and Rock & Roll. If everything goes well, they raise the middle finger to the compatriots who have to work to make ends meet. But do they get sick, or do they get a bill, do they come begging with open hands from their compatriot who they laugh at and who they consider stupid.
Sorry, I forgot to write after my first paragraph: “See below a piece of what this gentleman writes.
Sorry, but I think Martijn van Maastricht does not fully understand the content of the statement that has been put down here. And is what he writes down here, I think written more out of a lot of frustration and not based on actual facts.
Do you know what the word "prejudice" means?
You cannot prove any of your snide accusations about emigrants in general.
There will undoubtedly be people like you describe, but you will also find them among people who have not emigrated.
Most emigrants in Thailand are probably just married.
And have a wife, or husband, with (step) children.
A life of just hanging out in a bar every night seems like a very lonely life to me.
Sorry, this should have been a response to Martijn, not TheoS.
Just go to Rabobank, they would like to have you…..and if your money transfer to Thailand only costs you 7.00 euros at ING, it will soon cost 2x 25 euros to transfer money to Thailand.
After a conversation with someone with a decent position at a bank, I think I understand more or less why the banks would rather lose the Dutch living abroad than get rich. I was told a complicated story and it came down to this; the banks have a duty to the government to report all suspicious transactions. This includes support for terrorist groups, money laundering, etc. Transactions that take place within the EU are almost automatic. However, transactions outside the EU must be checked by 4, sometimes 5 employees. Everyone understands that this is expensive according to the banks. But why customers who sometimes became customers decades ago and are now suddenly turned away is difficult to explain.
You could solve that problem of cost by attaching an – affordable – price tag to an emigrant's bill.
There is no one who will seriously expect a bank to structurally apply money to an emigrant.
Those bank costs are then just a fixed part of the costs you have to incur for your emigration.
Just like the costs for your visit to the immigration in Thailand, or the visit to the embassy for a new passport.