Expats come in all shapes and sizes. And by expats I mean in this case the Dutch who stay/live here in Thailand on the basis of a visa that has to be extended every year or Dutch people who are in possession of a so-called 'permanent residence'.
A – non-exhaustive – list of the types of expats contains the following categories:
- working here on secondment from a company outside Thailand;
- working here on the basis of an employment contract with a Thai organization;
- living here, retired and single;
- living here, retired and married to a non-Thai partner;
- living here, retired and married to a Thai partner;
- living, working and married to a Thai partner here;
- living here, independent entrepreneur and married to a Thai partner;
- living here, not retired but receiving another form of benefit;
- living here, no more visa (so actually illegal).
If you have problems as a Dutch citizen, you should first turn to the embassy. Hopefully the embassy can help you with your problem. And if many Dutch people come with the same problems or complaints, the embassy can address the Thai authorities about this. That happened not so long ago with the scams on Phuket from both the taxi companies and the watercraft rental companies.
It is not customary to denounce these problems as an individual Dutch person on the internet or as a letter to the English or Thai newspapers in this country. It can make your position in this country more difficult and even lead to deportation. After all, you are interfering in Thailand's internal affairs, one can argue.
Therefore, it is always better to leave the handling of problems to the competent authorities and not to interfere. The same goes for Thai politics. However much you agree with one or the other political party or organization, it is much wiser to keep out of it.
That is why this week's (current) statement reads: Expats should not interfere in the political situation in Thailand, not on a national, regional or local level.
Agree or disagree? Comment and tell us why.
So the few Dutch emigrants who are naturalized as Thai (will there be two or three?) do not count in the discussion? 😉 Although, they can of course do anything just like any other Thai, I think, because they can wave a Thai passport.
As for the statement, it depends on what you mean by “interfere”. Among friends, acquaintances and family in Thailand it should be possible to express your opinion about politics and all kinds of other matters (social, economic, cultural). You can form and express an opinion, enter into a discussion in order to become wiser yourself, etc. If you cannot express yourself even within your own club, how can you ever integrate and become a fellow citizen (even if it is in a perpetually renewable visa). That wouldn't make me happy!
Publicly appearing in the media (newspaper, TV, etc.) is already becoming more difficult. There is absolutely nothing against it emotionally. But there may be risks involved, as you yourself indicate: some migration or police officer (whether or not on behalf of someone with a lot of money / power) who has stepped on his or her p ** / toes and everything makes you want to kick it out. So I would be careful with that, although I also find it exaggerated to avoid gatherings completely, for example (as Chris wrote in “Tourists must be vigilant due to the situation in Bangkok” on November 25, 2013 at 13:50).
As a Dutch person in the Netherlands with a Thai girlfriend, I also immerse myself in Thai society, including politics, as far as possible. It will be a kind of second home, at least a serious commitment. For example, last week on Sunday I went to the Thai embassy in The Hague to protest against the amnesty law. I think the chance that I will never/will never enter the country again is extremely small... And yes, my Thai girlfriend also tries to follow Dutch news and society as far as she can with her limited Dutch. In due course she will also naturalize and vote, etc. I assume that she will enthusiastically use her right to vote. Fortunately, here the risk is 0,0 if, as an immigrant, you criticize politics, society, etc. and express this in the media and the like. At most you will receive a wave of criticism that as a foreigner you should not interfere with the Netherlands, you can return to your own country or, with great bad luck, death threats from extremist lunatics.
I am not an Expat myself (hope to become one soon), but I have been married to Thai people for years, and I definitely feel involved in what is happening in Thailand, also on a political level.
But I no longer express myself for or against a certain Thai party or politicians, because I have noticed that this can lead to slightly unpleasant situations.
Last year, on holiday with mothers-in-law in the Isan, first cozy around the table with my wife, in-laws, and some acquaintances from the village itself, until it was about the situation in the country, when I let it slip that I was only going to spend the whole Thaksin didn't like anything, and neither did his sister. Purely because I always distrust politicians with too much money, a la Berlusconi.
Immediately felt the mood of some turn from pleasant to irritated, and tried to explain my opinion, and to shout that money should not be the saving grace for politicians, etc, etc, but the damage was already done.
Someone said "luak laew" or, I had already chosen sides, so I was for the opposing party! How do I choke on Thai politics? Well, so.
The mood improved later that evening (lots of drinks:) but afterwards I resolved never to get involved in political discussions in Thailand again, because I am and will remain a guest there, and Thailand is not the Netherlands.
Discussions about politics or religion (another Holy House) can all too quickly turn into heated discussions, with consequences that you may not be able to foresee.
But that is my opinion.
As an individual, I wouldn't either. I think if it should be interfered with then there should be a few conditions attached. Like being naturalized, working for a Thai company, knowing the Thai situation well. Not from your comfort zone with Dutch backup.
Being critical is one thing, but when you live here as a Dutchman and you receive your money from your own country as a kind of benefit, or you have a foreign employer, or you have your job because you can do this alone as a foreigner, you are privileged .
Then you can no longer participate in the conversation, because (apart from being deported from the country) you have little risk and little benefit from what you believe to be an improvement. What is good in our eyes does not have to be good for a Thai.
Just as in the Netherlands I would not want Muslims from Morocco or other Islamic states to have political rights, I think that foreigners here in Thailand should not have this right either.
In most cases, self-interest is the strongest motivator. If you let the Muslims in the Netherlands do their thing, soon everyone will be wearing a burka.
You better have an association that is strong enough to have a voice. Then maybe you could achieve something as Farang. But as an individual?
Politics concerns the balance of power in the country, and it would be a strange thing not to concern yourself with it if you have lived here for a long time. Each in his own way: at home, at work or in the media.
It is my experience that many Thais appreciate it when you express your opinions in a clear and understandable manner. You also receive encouragement of the kind: you are free, you can afford to express your opinion... Sensitive themes are also discussed: corruption, the monarchy, Thailand's place among its neighbors, and so on.
I sent dozens of letters to the Bangkok Post and The Nation, all of which were published. I then made myself recognizable as a foreigner. It was about abuse of power, image & self-image of Thais, justice & injustice, etc. Only twice was a sentence slightly changed, namely when I made a reference to the eighteenth century King Thaksin and to the danger of abuse of the position of the head of state with the tightened internet legislation. In one instance the newspaper replaced my pen name with 'Chiangmai Observer', which I took as a sign that the submission was appreciated and the contributor protected.
And although I see the risks outlined by the proposer of the statement, I cannot agree with his statement in general.
I once submitted a statement to Bangkok Post which was also posted.
It was then about a statement by the Minister of Finance that it was not necessary to take measures to promote the collection of taxes. He said something along the lines of 'that he assumes that the Thai pay their taxes neatly'.
I thought that was worth a comment.
We are guests here in Thailand. Even if you have lived there for decades. When you visit friends, you don't make comments about how their household is arranged.
The same applies to meddling in the politics of the host country.
Yes, as a guest in a country, one should never interfere with the politics of that host country. You may have an opinion, but that does not mean that you should always stir up everything. Just if you know nothing about the esteemed King you are allowed to and must write, as a citizen you must also distance yourself from Thai politics. Because this could cost you your head in the future and rightly so. Limit yourself more to local events and events and the indiscriminate mainstreaming of Thai politics is not good.
I will not express myself about a color or party in public, but I will with my girlfriend. As has been said and written so often, we are guests here for those people who still have to get visas every year.
I do know that there are also apartments in the Pattaya area where up to 100 Thai people are registered at the same address, which is done for the money they get for voting rights. So real democracy is still a long way off.
In fact, it is a dispute of opinion between poor and somewhat richer Thai, between the educated and the uneducated.
In the village near Korat where my girlfriend comes from, the village head was provided with an amount of money to persuade his villagers to vote, especially for that party, and were therefore given money for that. If it later turned out that they had accepted the money but had not voted for that party, those people had big problems.
I can understand very well if you have almost no money and you get 500 to 1000 Thai baht to vote for a party you do, but only for the money that they so badly need in those poor villages. 500 baht was then at least 2 1/2 days of work and in the event of a breakdown 1 week.
It is also not so much about who is in power now, but the management from outside and the current corruption system that they are so staunchly against, people who have studied or are a bit richer understand that much better.
I will close with Long live the King, who still somewhat holds the country and the people together. Hoping that the King may live at least another 100 years, that will benefit the country.
I'll add one more to your list of expat types: single retired father with a Thai/Dutch son who will most likely build his future in Thailand. I also love Thailand and feel connected to it myself. I am deeply concerned about the political stalemate which, for other reasons as well, could degenerate into chaos, violence and loss of life. I feel involved (often too much) and that is all the more difficult because apart from conversations about it, I do not want to and cannot get involved. I'm just a helpless spectator and that's not what I like.
Politics ( parties ) you first need to know what it is about. Since I don't speak Thai, mind me
I don't care about politics in Thailand.
Interfering means getting involved in matters that one has nothing to do with. Example: 'He is interfering in things again. to worry about someone or things that are of no use to one. Example: 'I don't bother with anyone. And if you don't want to risk your job or visa or blog, the best solution is to abstain from all politics. It has nothing to do with fear, but with a certain label, how do you behave when you are in a host country. The statement is not at all about getting into trouble, those problems can arise if you get involved in Thai politics in public. What you mix together with several falangals with the necessary beer is not important. That stays indoors and then you can have an opinion.
And expressing your opinion is not the same as being actively involved in Thai politics in public or in writing.
In a week we will travel to Thailand again, we live in BKK and my Thai wife has already announced that when we get there she will demonstrate with friends and family.
I myself will not interfere with Thai politics, I think it is something of the Thai people, it is correct, as SevenEleven said earlier, if you give your opinion, it can be wrong among those present and you will notice that from the swear that immediately turns.
I see it in the family with friends and neighbors, one is red, the other yellow, now I don't get involved with my opinion, I can now go through a door with everyone and I want to keep it that way.
Fortunately, December 5 is the king's birthday, hopefully this political storm will subside and I hope that a non-violent and satisfactory and democratic solution will soon be found for both parties, but I doubt the latter, because what is democracy? that is the dictatorship of the majority!
gr. tingtong
My wife and her family now participate daily in the recurring Thai folklore of occupation and demonstration. I sometimes see them on TV. My one neighbor is top ten in the Reds. My other neighbor Democratic Senator.
I as a farang observe and analyze. I stay out of politics, there are so many undercurrents and interests in it that I as an "outsider" cannot and sometimes do not want to assess. I keep the necessary distance.
My wife sometimes asks me to come along, but that seems less suitable, also given the visa and passport risks, whether or not I agree with party T or party D.
I have worked for multinationals all over the world almost all my life. It was in my contract. that interference with the religion and politics of the country where I worked leads to IMMEDIATE dismissal. An excellent rule. I'm still following this one until now. Of course I would also like to see peace return to Thailand. I have an opinion about it too. But meddling with it…??. Not a last hair on my head thinks about that. They just figure it out for themselves, there in Bangkok. Also this; Anyone who believed that Yingluck would be better than her 2 Taksin predecessors probably also believed in Sinterklaas. top martin
I think you shouldn't interfere with a country where you are a guest, we don't find anything here either.
The question is what you define as a “guest” and what as “interfering”…
Is a guest everyone who has ever come from outside (i.e. all immigrants)? All "immigrants"? People who only live here for a few years or part of the year? Only come on a short holiday? Are people who have been living (and possibly working) in Thailand for years "guests" (I would say not, if you live somewhere 24/7 year in year out you are no longer a guest apart from your legal status)?
And what is meddling? Any form of criticism or commentary (including positive commentary)? Only poorly substantiated criticism or any form of “strong” criticism?
You can read your message with two extreme interpretations: 1) someone who stands on the side lane and has little or no connection with the country should not be making a bucket full of unqualified, uninformed negative comments. 2) Anyone who is not Thai by birth should never, ever make any comments about Thailand (but only among foreign friends while enjoying a beer in the living room).
As a comparison of "we wouldn't want that either": if someone from Timbuktu who hardly knows anything about the Netherlands comes to say how we should do it, I assume that most people will not appreciate it (take that lady from the UN committee that came to say that Zwarte Piet is a sign of racism, or a president Putin who taps the Netherlands on something like human rights / children's rights - I missed what exactly he had for hypocritical and uninformed criticism -) . But if someone has already gained a good relationship and knowledge of the Netherlands (lived here for years, was even born here or comes year after year) then you can criticize if you substantiate this and if possible also come up with facts to make.
Finally, do you come to the question that if you have an opinion, where and when it is useful or not convenient to express it… For example, because with well-intentioned criticism you can still step on the toes of people with better connections and they may change your life a bit. less pleasant (lost your job, transfer, lost visa, lawsuit on your pants, ...).
I have enough trouble with the cock behavior of those "politicians" in our own country. They can no longer even be followed by me, even though I am supposed to speak the same language!
Don't have to explain anything here when I say that I certainly don't want to get involved with Thai politics!!!!
Take it from me, if you want to live here for a longer period of time, without any problems.
On retirement oid , keep your mouth shut about what you think about politics , Thaksin or the Royal family .
Keep your opinion to yourself , in your own home circle with your spouse that does not always have to be a problem if you also know each other well on a political level .
And this does not leak to family or acquaintances of your Ega.
But do you want to sleep peacefully at night and not have rotten eggs or broken windows, or much worse.
Keep your valve shut .
Even meddling in town and city , Amphur , Tessabaan politics can be fatal .
On my way to the bank in Lamphun last year, I unintentionally ran into a demonstration on the Bike.
And heard many times in plain English FARANG GO HOME .
Those who shouted that did not know me , but it was not nice to hear .
Also where I live there is a lot of tea money during local elections.
I could write a book about it by now , it annoys me that 's for sure .
But if you can't handle this, don't turn your heart into a murder pit and buy a one-way ticket back to Holland.
But the grass isn't always greener than it seems.
Greetings Jantje.
Ps: Be especially careful these exciting days.
Politics is a dark story that you as an expat or outsider understand little about.
In the Netherlands it is already impossible to follow, let alone in Thailand.
The Thai will not easily express his opinion as an individual.
It is difficult for us to form an opinion and certainly to pass judgment on it.
It is easier to demonstrate in large numbers.
It's not that simple: I demonstrate… No, you're in the midst of 10.000 or more.
So it is the masses that now give their opinion.
In recent times I have regularly visited the area around the democracy monument.
See here how commerce and protests go together.
The whistles and the clapping hands, as well as the gloves, are eagerly deducted.
The atmosphere? Excellent! The commerce with the many stalls thrive here.
As for an opinion? No, I can't give that because I am aware in both the Netherlands and Thailand that politics is more or less a game that the ordinary citizen cannot get a grip on.
The most important thing in politics is that you have to know how things are going! And which of the pensioners residing in TH does that? Plus: which hares do you think you see? Are they identical to, for example, the NL political hares? So can we just keep it simplistic with the one with a red pointed hat, and the other with a yellow one? If you really know about those hares, you can say it. So really know, and not by hearsay from someone who hasn't seen them either, perhaps somewhere in the distance, and only thinks they know. Because there are many of them. Of course we have an opinion, we think a lot of it, and we are at our best with formulating the conditions. By the way: let's just express all that, without hesitation and fear, because that way we learn from each other to understand the circumstances in which we find ourselves together. However, given the current circumstances, it is not unwise to formulate it neatly and decently. Although: we already did!
However, interfere? The situation is already difficult for the average Thai to distinguish, you can hardly expect expats and pensioners to oversee the battlefield, let alone make the events clear to commentators residing in the Netherlands. Interference therefore mainly consists of identifying what is wrong and how things should be done differently. With an emphasis on must. Interfere in? In many Thai families there is a custom of not discussing politics among themselves unless it is clear that the entire family has the same views. Experience shows that heads can overheat, and subsequently family relationships. A great habit, also for farang staying in TH!
Nevertheless, if you feel you need to get involved (usually this is limited to giving an opinion, whether unsolicited or not), do it calmly, calmly, deliberate and exploring, and especially in familiar environments. Above all, remember: the Thai situation is nothing like anywhere else, the circumstances are not recognizable, and if you are asked for your opinion, it is often not about the content, but about the understanding. First place it properly, and then see if you still want to lose your content if necessary. Oh well, it actually works that way in the Netherlands too!
Anyone who knows me a little from this blog knows that I do not endorse this statement. Nowhere in the rules of this blog does it say that if you postulate a statement you must also agree with that statement. I do get involved in Thai politics in three ways:
1. in domestic discussions. That is not surprising if your wife personally knows many of the key players in Thai politics.
2. in publications on this blog and in responses to articles in English-language newspapers;
3. in my college classes. I NEVER tell them what to think but THAT they should think and I try to teach them to do that in a structured way. For fans of the red shirts I play devil's advocate, for fans of yellow too.
I think I have some right to do that. I am not a guest here but have been working here for a number of years on a Thai contract. I am a civil servant and pay my income tax to the Thai government. If I tell Thai, they find it acceptable that I also have an opinion. I am careful about expressing an explicit opinion about a political party or person and also careful about expressing it in public. In addition, I don't want to be pigeonholed as red, yellow, colored or masked. I already had the same principle in the Netherlands. That is why I have never been a member of a political party.
Exactly Chris, this is what I also meant in my earlier response: if someone thinks for himself that he/she needs to say/write something, do so: but do it carefully. Do not strain personal relationships. And certainly not with authorities.
And that makes the meaning of interference in Thailand a lot less exciting, and the content, but also the effect, of interference can be reduced in half when it comes to trying to influence someone's beliefs or events. After all, that's what someone wants to achieve with their involvement.
You indicate that you have the opportunity to express your opinion more broadly, both privately and professionally, and that you can guide and guide your students in this regard. Then you have a special (!) position, privileged too, with which you can indeed try to convince young people of the usefulness of taking a critical look at themselves, others and the immediate and wider environment. In all facets. Especially politically and socially, because you are dealing with university students: the future Thai leadership. Right then!
In the statement, therefore, I did not think the word interfere was appropriate, and the formulation: “the expat must hold back when it comes to Thailand's politics”, was in my opinion more applicable to the 'general' pensionado. You had received a barrage of reactions from people who were convinced to the contrary, convinced that they could have influence.
Finally: I read with pleasure and with great appreciation your articles and reactions to articles. Learn a lot and keep learning. My thanks for that!
Dear Hans, everyone enjoys responding and formulating their own reactions. Or writing articles/stories. And no, I don't attribute expats/retirees an 'exceptional position', any more than you categorize commenters. Poetic freedom that is certainly appropriate to enliven and illuminate a story. A custom that I appreciate very much in your narrative.
I do blame some expats/pensionados/often returning holidaymakers for laziness and a lack of proper interpretation of some situations, sensitive as I am to the high 'no' content in the responses of many of them, towards Thais. social phenomena. Everyday small as well as (infra)structural. Examples? Recent days: neighbor with her cows down the street? Not right. Monk spotted at the protest leadership? No good. Cremation with music? Does not fit. ATM with fees? Can not. Teacher about yellow/red? Can not. State pension amount fine? Absolutely not!
Are we going to talk about: traffic, transport, health care, education, corporate culture, sangha, gambling addiction, safety, housing construction, drainage, swimming, boat trips, visa policy, purchases, repairs, power supply, TV programming, politics (same small selection from recent days) : then a grand 'is not correct' is used. Of course not with the observation that monthly income equals ample capital, because that's what we have Thailand for.
It seems to me that the position of the expat or pensionado is one of 'speciality'. He/she should be more aware of that, and blow less of the tower. That you often raise your eyebrows, frown your forehead, scratch behind your ears, and certainly should not have fallen on the back of your head: completely agree! But wasn't a good Dutch saying ever: Just dim, yes, just dim. Never wrong for many: just step on the spot, wait a bit, count to 10!
If I read this Soi, and maybe I'm reading it wrong but I've read it three times, then the pensionadas and the regular tourists should have no questions and certainly no opinion of their own.
That's saying quite a lot!
I do think that people should ask questions, be critical and share opinions. What I am arguing is that the shy and unbridled rejection of and unqualified opposition to all kinds of small and large Thai events and phenomena, of both of which I mention a number, and much larger developments are taking place, about which backgrounds we had little suspicion, may now be accompanied with more involvement, compassion and nuance. I will give one last example, then I will stop talking about this theme (moderator will call it chatting): read today in a response to the News from Thailand dated November 29: (quote) “Thailand is slowly sinking, many people with sawdust travel to Bangkok first instead of just going to work.” What such comments are necessary for, other than expressing one's own frustration, which is also an insult to all those Thai people who are working to improve their country, is beyond me. I am therefore reluctant to accept that this will become the level of how retirees, among others, view Thailand.
Maybe read my previous comment again.