Statement of the week: 'An in-depth conversation with your Thai partner is not possible'
There is a language barrier between farang and Thai, so it is almost impossible to have an in-depth conversation with your partner.
Many readers on Thailand blog are very happy with their Thai partner and can enumerate a whole list of benefits of their relationship. But of course there are also disadvantages.
For example, you cannot communicate with each other in your 'mother language'. And even if you master the Thai language or your partner Dutch, expressing your emotions in a foreign language is not easy. It is therefore difficult to have really deep conversations with each other. This could also make your relationship a bit more superficial.
I did notice that my Thai girlfriend quickly understands my non-verbal communication. It could therefore be that you develop alternatives yourself to circumvent this handicap.
The statement can also be undermined if you realize that communication specialists say that communication consists of 55% body language and 38% word sound. Only 7% remains for the words you say.
Yet it remains difficult to discuss really complicated matters with each other in poor English. How do you solve that?
Join the discussion and respond to the statement of the week: 'An in-depth conversation with your Thai partner is not possible!'.
I don't agree with the statement. You can even communicate with each other without speaking the same language. But there is great unwillingness of many expats to learn the Thai language. Further like, mai peng rai, they don't want to go. I know expats who have been living in Thailand for several years and cannot pronounce a single Thai sentence. They give the craziest reason, if you ask them why not. On the other hand, I notice the will of many Thai younger people to learn to speak the English language, for example.
But why speculate about the Thai language. How many people in the Netherlands speak German or French? And those are our neighbours. Some Dutch people don't even understand Flemish. And what about Limburgish or the Frisian language?. The solution in Thailand to stay focused is simple and straightforward; where there is no will, nothing happens.
The statement is not just about communication, but about the ability to have deep conversations with each other.
Communicating includes all facets of a conversation, including in-depth ones. But someone who can't even have a low level conversation doesn't even have to start conversations that go deeper?.
?? In-depth conversation' is communication:) possibility or no possibility
I also disagree with this statement.
Entirely for the fact that from my own experience, the opposite
have experienced.
This Thai expressed it very well in English.
Hello.
@ tlb-ik
I completely agree with you… my girlfriend speaks poor English, and I don't speak Thai, but when she lies in my arm at night – hopefully not to sound too romantic – she understands me perfectly. Maybe I'm lucky, I don't know, but one thing I do know…feelings are not related to religion or culture or language, no, it's universal…love is the same in all cultures, the expression is different, but the feeling it's the same…
I've known her for a year now, and more and more I understand her, and I feel that she understands me too, without words, I wouldn't even know how to express it in Thai.
It doesn't always have to be complicated... there is a huge cultural difference between us, but we are working on that, that gap can be bridged perfectly, "give and take", that's what it's all about...
I know one thing for sure, when I cry my Thai wife cries with me, and when I am happy she is happy too, and she feels it perfectly, without words…
I know, this is a disguised declaration of love, but the moderator will turn a blind eye, my Thai love is about 1.50 feet tall, has a strong character, and is the best thing that ever happened to me in my life, and we get married for Buddha on October 1, her birthday, and she is perfectly aware of that… she always says to me: “you're not falang, you're Rudy, my husband”…
I am now perfectly settled here, and everyone accepts me, even the Thai who have a hard time understanding me. If you put in a little effort, and they sense that you want to be one of them, you'll be there very soon
So, moral of the story… don't always make it so difficult, the cultural difference can be perfectly bridged with work on both sides, empathy was mainly needed on my part, but you get so much in return…
I come from the other end of the world, and found my happiness here, I never want to lose her, it has caused me a lot of problems and headaches, but I never want to leave here, and would love my Thai wife and her 15 year-old daughter for all the gold in the world never want to miss…
I wish the same for other blog readers.
Kind regards, Rudy
I will kick off the – undoubtedly long queue – reactions.
My opinion:
– if you want to have an in-depth conversation with your partner and that partner wants that too, then there are fewer problems than you think. You can also have a superficial relationship with a partner from the same mother country because you 'no longer speak each other's language';
– more and more expats have a partner who has a good education and who speaks English. Not every Thai female partner comes from the Isan. Discussing business in English offers a form of equality: it is not the native language of either partner;
– sometimes there is more of a cultural problem than a language problem. Some matters are sensitive (or even taboo) for the Thai partner, others for the Dutch expat. Especially when it comes to 'deep' subjects.
So Isan women can't speak English? That's a nice statement.
I think many people from Isaan have a higher IQ than the average Farang I know here.
As you can imagine, my partner is from Isaan, and she followed a Dutch and English course.
Not getting the chance to study is different from considering an entire population less gifted.
I have the greatest difficulty here in having an in-depth conversation with expats. Not with the Thai people.
Showing a little more respect for the Thai people wouldn't be a bad thing.
Totally agree Leo, Chris acts like everyone coming from Isaan is retarded. A pity.
“However, it remains difficult to discuss really complicated matters with each other in poor English.”
That phrase in the post is not mine.
The insinuation is that if you come from Isaan you cannot speak English well.
LESS than the average woman in Bangkok. That's just a statistic fact.
well chris i live in chiang mai
And English is really terrible here, especially among the younger ones.
My daughter in law is from isaan speaks perfect english
Chris, please mention the source or a link for this statement, because I think you are talking nonsense.
Regards, dontejo.
Khan Peter,..
Humor !!!!,….there is an Isaan saying,…in Bangkok the have business and trade,…in the Isan we have the Falang
I clearly disagree with the statement.
It also has to do with will and unwillingness.
I know a lot of people, friends, family and acquaintances of whom I wonder:
How well do you actually know each other, because people do not understand each other or a point of contention arises about sometimes the most trivial matters.
So it may just be that not so much the language is the stumbling block, but that people have a relationship with each other in which the mutual interests are different.
Dear Khan Peter,
I also disagree with the statement, because it takes more than language skills in a relationship to understand each other, as Chris also indicates.
I have been living in Isaan for years and I know almost most of the cities and villages, because I travel a lot in Thailand.
Statistically, very few Thai people speak English here compared to other areas of Thailand.
The less tourists come somewhere, the less English is spoken.
You learn English mainly by speaking it, so the more tourists there are, the more English is understood.
The Isaan is the least visited by tourists, so… English is significantly less in this area.
I invite you to spend a long time in the Isaan.
Cultural differences are sometimes more difficult than language problems.
greetings from Danny
I never called anyone less gifted. That's one.
We must bear in mind that the Thai partners who have found Dutch and Belgian expats here in Thailand are NOT a cross section of the female Thai population. Most partners spoke some, good or even very good English when we met them. And we, the farang, spoke little or no Thai. It is almost impossible to communicate with a Thai woman who does not speak a word of English while the foreigner hardly speaks Thai. 7 years ago there was a Thai woman who apparently found me an attractive man. During my lunch break at school she called me every day with the only English words she spoke: where do you come from…..while my cleaning lady had already told her 100 times that I am from the Netherlands. I hope I don't have to explain that a relationship with her was out of the question.
Maybe the IQ story is true, but they have done so little with it. The schools concentrate on nonsensical matters with teachers who are not teachers. Pragmistic thinking is not encouraged. And then those universities that at best deliver master's degrees at a high school level for us. Communicating goes well with my wife, but I often have to explain things. She now understands the water chemistry of the pool, how the reverse osmosis system works, but before high school there was very little chemistry and physics left behind. A lot of history, whether accurate or not, verses from Buddhism and, strangely enough, quite a lot of biology. cell membranes, citrus, the double helicoil, she can teach me something about that.
Hi Leo.
Completely agree with your statement, my wife is also from Isaan and I have lived there myself for 10 years.
Think there are more expats living in isaan who don't speak thai than thai people who don't speak english.
But yes, the statement that people from isaan are stupid will not disappear so quickly, unfortunately.
Greetings Harry.
I have met many people from Isaan in recent years and they were certainly not stupid. Good at hand. They did not get the chance to study, but they would like to
Don't we have that in the Netherlands too, yes! You have people who can but don't want to in our country.
How many Dutch people are there who cannot have an in-depth conversation with their wife or girlfriend or boyfriend? If it becomes too difficult, it is stopped. It is still a “problem” for many. So what do you expect from a falang with a Thai one. It's just how you deal with it. Good luck.
Thai women from the Isan would speak less English?
What a prejudice!!
Yes, you cannot have (in-depth) conversations with prejudices.
I live in the Isan myself and can have very good conversations with my wife. In English!
Dear Eric Sr.
I am convinced (and it is also my experience) that the average proficiency of the English language between women in Bangkok and women in rural Thailand differs significantly in favor of the women in Bangkok. This is by no means to say that the women in the countryside are dumber, and I am not saying that either. Women in Bangkok are on average better educated, have more money to take extra English lessons and are more likely to practice their English with foreigners. In addition, the quality of English teachers in Bangkok is higher than in the countryside (more native speakers), mainly because the salary differences between Bangkok and the countryside are considerable.
Hello.
@Chris.
This comment may not get through, but I think you're going a bit off track.
My girlfriend is from Chaiyaphum Isaan, and although she has only a minimal education, we can have a conversation in English perfectly.
the only requirement is that you adapt your English to hers, and then there is no problem, love conquers all boundaries.
I find it strange that Isaan is so denigrated. I was there a few days ago for a week, and was received very warmly by everyone, in the best possible way, and ate at everyone's table.
Ok, they don't speak English there, my girlfriend did the translation for me, but the cordiality was no less.
Went to the Siam flower festival with them, and ok, I paid everything that day, because they just don't have the money, but they were waiting for me at 6 o'clock in the morning…
And they don't speak English, and without my girlfriend there probably wouldn't be any conversation or understanding, but I did get 2 small boudha statues from mom, XNUMX cm tall, and a few hundred years old, and that says much more than words...
I stand up for people from Isaan here, they don't always understand you, but they sense it…and yes, for many of us they live in the Stone Age, but there was no talking, gestures sometimes work wonders
Kind regards… Rudy
What are Deep Conversations? A hand on the shoulder (sometimes) can say more than a thousand words.
So far you Joghum are one of the few who understands and responds what the statement is about. Not whether they can speak English in Isaan (what nonsense) but whether you can have deep conversations with someone without understanding a foreign language.
Perhaps we would first ask for an explanation of the concept: when does an in-depth conversation start and what should the content be?.
Agree Peter, it is almost impossible to have an in-depth conversation with your partner, at least this was the case when I met my partner about 25 years ago, the conversation was in English, some Thai words and with gestures, it takes a lot of patience and energy just to keep a conversation going.
And because of that there could be great silences, and that was sometimes annoying if you were dining in a restaurant, for example, then it is nice if you could also have a conversation with each other during dinner.
Because I have known my wife for so long now, I also know exactly what she means when she says something, and I catch myself that I have also adapted to her, I mean in how I pronounce certain words or sentences. , then I'll do it in such a way that I'm sure she understands what I mean.
And when I first got to know her, her vocabulary and pronunciation also led to very funny situations, for example when someone once asked her whether she lived in a rented house or a house for sale, her pronunciation sounded like a whore when she meant rent, so she replied we live in a WHORE house.
Or when she asked a colleague who was sitting at the table with her if she was eating FISH, it sounded like that when she asked, so do you eat FISH? to which that colleague replied I don't eat dirty at all look at yourself.
Back to the statement in my case I can now communicate reasonably well with my wife, but even after 25 years I still have to explain what I mean exactly with certain sentences or words, but I no longer think about it. become a habit.
And is that a disadvantage? I don't have any problem with it. In the Netherlands I had a lot of in-depth conversations with everyone, but did I get anything out of it? I do not think so.
Let it be, we understand each other in our simple English, and have no relationship problems (so far) A tip; communication is sending and receiving on the same wavelength. Use simple English and no fancy words as they will not be received and you will see that much, much is understood.
No, that certainly doesn't have to be a disadvantage. My comrade always says: 'you only have good conversations with your friends' and there is a grain of truth in that.
In maritime shipping we call this Seaspeak... So choose your words in such a way that the other sailor also understands... That is very important in a relationship in Thailand... Use your body language correctly and you will see that there is a lot understanding is possible and can therefore also have an in-depth conversation.
In the beginning, the biggest problem was that she always says YES, even though she didn't understand anything.
We can laugh about it afterwards.
very correct , always remains a superficial relationship
It will largely depend on your partner's background (educated or not, willing to actually learn the language) and yourself; immerse yourself in the culture and accept the cultural differences. And are you willing to learn the Thai language yourself? I therefore fully agree with Paul Jomtien's writing. My wife is not significantly younger than me, has studied and has her own company. In the Netherlands we mainly have Dutch friends and in Thailand more Thai friends. for more than 15 years we have been talking together and with our friends about the most diverse matters; So it is possible!
First of all, I speak as an expert: marriage with a Thai woman, divorced from a Thai woman, Thai girlfriend for 5 years, a Thai girlfriend for two years and many contacts with Thai people of all levels.
First of all, what is an “in-depth” conversation? That is very different for different people, for me it can't go deep enough.
I think that an in-depth conversation with a Thai is not possible, maybe with a few exceptions, but I have not experienced it yet. And it is certainly not the cultural difference or the little overlapping language, although that of course does not help to have communication anyway.
But depth? No, conversations with a Thai, even if it's your partner, don't go more than a millimeter deep. That is my big objection to a relationship with a Thai lady. I am convinced that there are many foreigners who are very happy with their Thai partner and communicate with them satisfactorily. So they apparently have no need for deep conversations or find that deep somewhere else.
I have this opinion regardless of whether someone comes from Isaan with half-finished primary school or has obtained a Masters Degree at one of the Thai universities. It is probably in the Thai character, people are not interested in conversations of any depth. It is often dismissed as "serious" or "you talk too much". I think an in-depth conversation is too dangerous for a Thai, if you dare to be vulnerable and have personal conversations, then for the Thai the closer you get to the core, the essence, it becomes very risky for losing face . In other words, the best way not to lose face is not to show your face.
With all my 10 years I no longer believe in a deep conversation with a Thai when we are 25 years later after a change of the entire education system in Thailand it might be possible.
That has nothing to do with communicating about everyday things, with it
showing empathy, the hand on the shoulder, the understanding look, or expressing love that is all possible and that requires relatively little language, the problem for most people starts with the first problem, the first misunderstanding, the first quarrel, then it turns out that communication is impossible or very difficult. But as I said, that has little to do with depth for me, and that is already complicated with a Thai partner, let alone conversations with depth.
Unfortunately, deep conversations are a prerequisite for me to open up to a woman, if that is not there it is only sex, only satisfying for a short time. And it is available in abundance in Thailand.
Extremely realistic, well and honestly worded. That's how it is and not otherwise.
Just an addition.
This morning I raised the subject with my (very educated pharmacist), a woman in her early forties here in Chiang Mai. After I mentioned my loss of face theory to her as the reason for lack of depth in conversations with a Thai, she denied it so quickly that it served as additional proof to me.
She herself saw the enormous laziness of the Thai as the reason. (her words). When I asked her where she thought that tremendous laziness came from, there was no answer (That was too deep?) I put it down to fear of losing face.
I agree with the statement, but I think how bad it is varies from person to person. Many men, even with a Dutch partner, have little or no need for in-depth conversations. Usually it is the women who want it.
In order to have an in-depth conversation, you must have depth first and the need to discuss it second. It is not only the Thai partner, but also the Thai language that has limitations. I speak quite a bit of Thai, I have worked abroad for a long time and speak good English, but to express exactly what I want to say, I am still at the mercy of Dutch. Dutch and English are much more extensive languages than Thai. It is difficult for your Thai partner to learn the nuances in another language that their own language does not have. I'm not an expert on this subject, Wittgenstein is the answer for that, but I think that a language with many nuances gives you the opportunity to think nuanced. You can develop by taking in thoughts of others expressed in that language. The expression possibilities in Thai are definitely more limited than in Dutch, simply because the vocabulary is smaller. A Dutch person in his twenties knows an average of about 60.000 words. The Dutch language has more than 430.000 words and English, according to Google, even 1 million. You can think and say things with it that cannot all be translated into Thai and the mysterious question remains whether Thais think things that you cannot say in their language. I do not think so.
Join me here.
Stronger in my dialect I have about 14 words available from annoyed to seething.
Nuances often make the difference.
My wife is a two way master in Thailand. In the Netherlands she is now working on her Dutch equivalent.
Conversation is fine. However, depth does not know her. No time, you talk too much, I'm in a hurry, I'm busy, Need something to eat first. etc.
Are often artifices to be able to flee feelingly.
However, on the other hand, social, passionate and inspired, hugely ambitious and very sweet
What else do you want?
This statement does not apply at all in the case of my Thai wife and myself. In fact, I can communicate with her ten times better than with my Belgian ex.
Just a few examples:
– when we didn't live together yet, Skype was our main means of communication, together with the Line app on our smartphone. In Skype we had to type because of an audio problem, in Line app we could type and talk on the video call. With these 2 communication tools together we have a good 1700 pages in just under a year and a half.
– we can also talk to each other in depth, but also light-heartedly, in Gmail and Gtalk (that's Gmail's chat). OK, it's typing, but we know each other very well and understand each other very well. I'm sending this response here from work now, and there is a Gtalk chat box open here at this very moment if anything comes up.
– now that we have been living together for a month now, an in-depth conversation is something that easily happens twice a week. It's in English, but that's no problem. That will only be a problem if we make it a problem, and we won't.
– I can also talk well with my Thai wife's friends. These are all people who appreciate a good conversation.
It may be hard for some, but the will for a good and in-depth conversation depends on both. If you have the commitment for it, it will just happen. Start a serious conversation with your partner. Just do it without thinking that it can't be done 🙂 By doing it you will show her that you appreciate her and that you rate her intelligence highly – and she will react accordingly 🙂
From the beginning, we have made it a habit to see differences in culture as an enrichment, and not as problems. And my darling is intelligent enough to do the same to me.
We don't make it difficult in our communication either 🙂 By talking calmly, letting your body language work, and giving everything its time, you will achieve excellent results!
In many cases there are in-depth conversations, first of all I read them with good friends, I do that too, but it is usually about problems or political issues, but communicating is a completely different matter and then we still have to discuss which of the three do you want to do with your Thai partner,
Believe me, don't start because that's the beginning of the end, just make small talk and (money) then everything will be fine, I've been living here for 9 years and when I go out for dinner I see still ! I usually sit at the table with the whole family and there is a lot of communication between the farang and his girlfriend, but yes, everyone is friendly and, above all, they laugh a lot, but I doubt whether they understand anything about the farang, but it is everyone's own idea. but when I sometimes overhear conversations between my friends and their partners, I have my doubts, but they are happy together and that is the main thing.
Show respect for each other and be happy.
I think the statement is absolute nonsense. After arrival, my wife followed an intensive Dutch course and also made an effort to learn Dutch herself. Apart from the first few months, we never spoke a language other than Dutch. He reads Dutch newspapers, reads Dutch books and watches Dutch television. She also does voluntary work at a Dutch nursing home.
Although there is of course always a certain language barrier, I can discuss everything with her. If that barrier is too great for an in-depth conversation, it is due to the effort of the partner to learn the Dutch language. Or maybe those who have language problems make the big mistake of buying Thai books, magazines and TV channels. From the beginning you have to speak only Dutch in the Netherlands.
And of course, if you decide to live in Thailand, you should learn the Thai language perfectly and not read Dutch books and newspapers.
Much also depends on your age. If you come to Thailand at the age of 65, there may still be the will to learn the language, but it will take more effort than when you are young. Learning words is still not too bad, but sentences form much less. Real communication is really not easy. Few of the Thai people living in the area know or can speak English. Mainly I am only approached here by foreigners from the area. and then in English, sometimes also French or German. Young students walk around here to interview foreigners and practice their English. It is always a pre-printed list I already know the questions and give them the opportunity to learn something. Usually it ends in a giggle. The class level is not good.
For myself, given my age, I have decided (for now?) not to start a relationship. Communication is too important to me.
Moderator: please don't chat.
There is no real communication possible between a Thai and a Dutch or Falang. The superficial things are fine, but if you want to philosophize together, forget about it. You will never really get to know an Asian woman, you never know what is really going on in their desirable cup. Yet such a relationship is not doomed to failure, many couples do not have real communication on the same level but get along fine. It just depends on what your requirements are. Look at the former farmers in the Netherlands and also at a resident 60/70 years ago who snapped and growled a bit at each other but knew exactly what was meant. If that was accompanied by real love, nothing would happen...
Jan v.D.
I do not agree with the statement, I have been married for more than five years to a Thai intelligence woman who has completed high school and speaks better English than I do.
Have had in-depth conversations, and mutually know about each other's lives from an early age, only due to the cultural difference and way of life here, and in Holland, it is more misunderstanding, and sometimes we have to explain it with other examples, but where a will is a way.
Only faith, and politics, we avoid, those are the things about which real misunderstanding arises. but more because of the difference of opinion. which we are both too tenacious about.
How deep do you want to go? What do you need to talk about in depth? Maybe I'm a superficial person myself. My girlfriend and I talk about what we want. And sometimes she thinks I talk too much and sometimes I think she should shut up NOW. But very often, most of the time, we enjoy each other's conversations. Are we going deep? Don't know. Going deep is exhausting and unnecessary. But perhaps what is normal conversation to me may be profound conversation to another and totally shallow conversation to another.
Of course the language has to do with that. But my girlfriend is smart enough to say anything she wants to say in English. I sometimes have to make an effort to keep my English intelligible.
In any case, it is another Western model: you MUST be able to have in-depth conversations, you can only be so different in age, you MUST meet certain conditions. And Thailand is not allowed to have an army as a government, but MUST have a democracy (sorry, that HAD to be left out)…
I think our conversations meet my needs perfectly and she can talk to me about anything she wants to talk about….
The in-depth conversations I have before with my friends.
My wife doesn't need to know anything about football, for example.
In my work as a driving instructor I have noticed that a short communication is more effective than communication, nothing that we in the Netherlands are quite good at.
An overabundance of words can make the essence of the subject lose its power.
If you want to communicate more deeply with each other, invest in each other's language and culture and make an effort!
As a result, you grow more towards each other when these basic elements are self-evident for you. Your relationship will become more profound.
Chok Dee crab
Funny how everyone gets on the defensive again and starts explaining that depth is not necessary and that he has such a nice relationship. Apparently it's hard to just go into the statement. En passant I have to read that you should not be an opponent of a military dictatorship and I note that the 430.000 words of the Dutch language fall short of applying the right nuances, because smileys are used for that. Incidentally, I have not been able to find a decent equivalent of the word depth in Thai. There are two words that come close and they both happen to be borrowed from Pali. In Dutch you will easily find 10 synonyms for 'in-depth' and because of the nuance of the language you can have an in-depth conversation in Dutch. That doesn't force anyone to need it though.
You hit the nail on the head Sjaak S. Profound is a very subjective concept because when is it profound? For me there is only 1 criterion and that is feeling good together. Whether this is at home or in a restaurant, it only becomes a problem once there is no longer pleasant chatting and 1 of the parties does not feel comfortable with this. In addition, every person has different interests, concerns, etc. that he/she likes to discuss, but that may not be the case with the partner at all. And that doesn't matter, because there is always someone in your area who wants to put up a tree about it.
Coincidentally, have had a lot of contact with a Thai girlfriend in recent months, who lives with Farang. Unfortunately he is on the jealous side and she says so but does not argue. On the contrary, when she wants to do something, for example go to the city 10 kilometers away, she has to ask permission from her boyfriend first. Partly due to money problems, caused by stopping a business she ran, she is stuck with him. When we try to tell her that it is absurd that she allows herself to be used as a slave or to be used like that, the answer is always Thai Style.
It is not possible to really go deeper into it, because she may not have a 100% command of the English language or because she does not feel like thinking about it. While she is a very clever woman. Yet she is disappointed with her way of life because it brings a lot of boredom to her. That's what she says!
She understands what we say (she is very sweet to us) but does or does not want to do anything with it. She has chosen this relationship and therefore also the burdens of this relationship, period.
This has nothing to do with communication!! Unfortunately, this means that you often cannot go deeper into topics while it is possible in terms of intelligence.
Hi K Peter,
May I be so bold as to absolutely contradict the percentage of 38% word sound?
Before we emigrated, we always had dogs.
If I read the bible to my dogs, but in an angry way, they would leave with their tails between their legs.
Difficult in our case, as they were boxers.
The percentage of word sound can be doubled in my opinion.
Furthermore, after years together (we 9-12 have been together for 45 years!!), a glance or a certain look is enough to know how the man or woman thinks about the point that is being discussed / spoken against at that moment
LOUISE.
Dear readers,
Now let's assume that there are no problems with English and that a conversation between both partners is quite intelligible.
First of all there is the difference in culture and religion, Buddhism and most farangs are Christian.
Secondly, most women are of Isaan origin, went to school until they were 2 and were mostly raised with their grandparents.
So they have never known parental love, and their thinking and feelings are completely different from ours.
In addition, most women have already been married to a Thai man, whose life usually consists of spending all days drunk and drugs, cheating, and then when he comes home, he trumps his wife.
I'm not making this up, I've talked to divorced women enough, and they keep coming up with the same stories.
So can you imagine that their feelings are completely broken and they are hardened by all this.
I hope you now understand why there is a barrier and why it is difficult or impossible for them to be open to our way of thinking.
Greetings
Gino Croes
Dear @Peter,
Is this deep enough??? to talk to your partner/wife about, see link, http://www.naewna.com/politic/columnist/2641?fb_action_ids=439139719555916&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_ref=.U4hBnmF59XE.like&fb_source=hovercard….
and Yes… my wife is Thai and Isan, writes and speaks fluent English, is a district chief and judge.
Your reaction please,…
best regards
Chris Bleker
I completely agree with you. There are also hundreds of languages in which you can easily make yourself understood. It doesn't necessarily have to be English. And in-depth conversations, as stated in the TLB statement, can also be had if neither of you speaks a common language. That is more difficult and takes longer. But you can work it out if both have the will.
And that is where many expats are concerned. They don't want to learn to speak Thai. There are expats who find that recurring -ka- and -khab- is already a thorn in their side. This form of respect in a language is unknown to us plain Dutch people. We prefer to shorten it with the high academic expression, . . know for sure!!. I am against today's statement. In-depth communication is also possible without a common language.
Have really tried. Unfortunately, we have reached the age that eea will not stick around for long, so it will make do with a few words in English. So this has nothing to do with not wanting to, but not being able to or being unable to do so due to age. Maybe the Rebell can also think about this before making his/her judgment here.
For very good communication it is better to know the language and have the will to learn it. That works best if you move among the Thai people instead of always meeting your Dutch-speaking friends at clover jackets and sitting at home on the balcony terrace behind a beer or a cup of coffee the rest of the time.
People who regularly live in Thailand should take a compulsory course in speaking Thai, just like Thais who come to the Netherlands. Then deeper conversations could take place, at least daily conversations with the Thais. Certainly there are bloggers who can't even do abn. But that is noticeable to those who do not utter a word of Thai themselves. In my 7 years of Thailand I have met many expats. Only 1 expat could speak perfect Thai, none could write or read Thai. When asked about it, most indicated that they had no interest (= no will, no sense).
There are several options for learning a foreign language. The best one is to spend non-stop time with people who speak this language. You look up certain key words at home in a good translation dictionary. There are free lessons on I-Net for the pronunciation, writing and reading of foreign languages. If you learn 1 word every day, you will already be speaking the new language nicely after a month. Of course no deep conversations. But there are expats who have not managed to have in-depth conversations with their ex in their own language, in their own country. Consequence; divorce and try to start over in Thailand.
The Thai way of life has no room for deep conversation. This is usually accompanied by loss of face of one of the interlocutors. That may not happen. Thais live by their culture and not by rules. You see that all around you every day. Most expats are here because they like the Thai whole. Then respect the Thais and their culture and don't try to have deep conversations. Totally useless, makes no sense and is not wanted at all. He or she who does not understand this would first familiarize themselves with Thai culture and then quickly with the language. And everyone can do that: old or young. A matter of akseptanz and the will to do something, to learn and not to stand still to keep your brain sharp.
Dear, I agree with the statement, do not know whether the Thai woman needs an in-depth conversation? Not in my opinion. What I do see and what disturbs me horribly is that comments are made here by people who cannot write abn themselves. It's really dramatic with some thailand bloggers… Please do something about that!
Dear Mr. Chris Bleeker,
I don't think the article is about your wife no matter how proud you are of her.
Most people do not speak English in Isaan compared to many other areas in Thailand and this is, as you know, because few tourists visit Isaan.
The article is about the language barrier in a relationship I think language is secondary to all aspects that are also needed in a relationship .Culture backgrounds play a bigger role I think.
Danny
In my view, there is no question of a language problem, but a cultural difference that makes communication different than we are used to and that is mutual. I say that as a Dutch man from experience in a marriage of almost 40 years with a Thai woman.
Just to clarify, My Thai wife speaks fluent Dutch and English but handles the language differently than I do and that is due to cultural differences. That does not promote easy communication in any language. In my experience there are certainly topics about which deep conversations are possible, but not always about the topics I would like and that is certainly mutual.
For me and my dear Honnybee, no in-depth conversations need to be had. Our happiness consists of understanding each other, appreciating and respecting each other, and taking each other as you are. Our great happiness is doing everything together. When I came to Thailand she could only say the words Yes and No. Now, through self-study with the help of me, she can communicate with every farang about everything. And if you are also healthy, you are very happy without those in-depth conversations that we never have. Lots of humor that is much more important. And she is highly educated because she washes the windows on a staircase that is 6 steps high.
I have the impression that Mr. Khun Peter means something different from the views that are now coming in here. I understand it like this;
1 that you can communicate with each other on an equal footing, in Thai or English, doesn't matter.
2 that you can talk about serious matters such as; jealousy, joy and sorrow and why.
3 that such a conversation can and hopefully will lead to, for example, a deepening of the relationship.
4 that this can also be about conversations between a Western man and a Thai friend, so just friends.
Assuming this is the idea behind the statement, my experiences with Thai men and women are not very encouraging. In the past five years that I spent largely in Hua Hin, I have never experienced that the Thai I met dared to come close to his or her feelings. Baring the soul is simply not possible. Asking questions about upbringing, education, (failed) relationships from the past, children hidden away, etc. is experienced as extremely uncomfortable, even (perhaps because of this?) if you are very close to this person in daily life. 'Real' feelings are and remain hidden. I have experienced someone who really had a problem that you and I would say: seek professional help immediately. But a proposal for help from a psychologist or psychiatrist was completely out of the question. A shame arose that led to enormous arguments.
It becomes even more difficult if you do expose yourself. I am very easy and good at it, have hardly any feelings of shame, am open about whatever you want. Sex, drugs, and rock & roll. And everything is negotiable. With such an attitude, most Thais are completely flustered and do not know how quickly to change the subject. Knowing this once in a while I sometimes have fun to challenge them a bit and to lure them out of the tent.
Maybe turn this statement around and ask yourself if the intellectual Thailand understands you.
There are plenty of Thai ladies who are more educated than the farang.
So the prejudice is once again a ridiculous reasoning.
I also have many Thai friends with whom you can communicate on a high level.
So Peter maybe turn it around.
A good listener only needs half a word.
A look says more than 100 words.
And why do most expats here pretend to be able to have an in-depth conversation in English and not in Thai? I have seen many who can just order a pint and say some nonsense in English. How many say “please” instead of “here you are” and that is just a basic concept. Talk about prejudices!
I have been commercially active in the Netherlands for about 40 years. And that works for more than 80 percent on body language and tone of voice: trust and acceptance. I also studied psychology for a few years, but I have long forgotten all that. What I do know is that it works the same here. I interact with Thai people at all levels with or without English. And with my own girl? When it really matters we scream and eyes fire and when it really matters we hold each other and we whisper. There is no difference. Or right? Yes, discussing technical things with each other takes more time. I enjoy and so does she.
Most men, often men, are with Thai lady from the bar, they don't speak word Thai so it becomes coal English joe like mee, ai like joe etc.
Of course those men 'met her in the hospital' or in a shop, she was a receptionist in a hotel……………Learn Thai first, but most of them don't.
Strongly disagree with this statement.
I have been living in the Netherlands with my wife (from the Isan) for about 15 years now, and her Thai school education was hardly worth mentioning. But that is completely unimportant to me, because as soon as there is a more in-depth conversation between us, my kluk-kluk Thai, and her poor Dutch, and vice versa.
We understand each other very quickly.
And for the really important things, no words are even needed. When she was sometimes homesick in the early years in the Netherlands (and especially missed her mother), I said nothing at all, but put my arms around her. Those are things that have nothing to do with your education or origin, that is universally human in my opinion.
And yes, learning a little Thai is also respectful towards your wife, because it shows that you are interested in her language, people, and background, right? And it is certainly useful when you face your mother-in-law again, and you don't have to stutter and stutter to dig up those few Thai words you still know from the depths of your brain.
I bet there are plenty of Dutch couples who speak perfect Dutch, and yet don't (want to) understand each other when it comes down to it. I see plenty of examples of that in everyday life.
So it doesn't have much to do with education, but that's my opinion.
A big age difference doesn't contribute to deep discussions either! Older gentlemen simply think differently than younger ladies or gentlemen!
Dear blog commenters,
In the statement it was about “understanding, being understood and communicating” !!
After reading the previous responses to this statement, I come to the conclusion that we don't understand each other, the responders.
So speaking of communicating………?
Peer
I think it has nothing to do with language, I am married to a Thai who speaks and understands more than reasonable English and Dutch, I myself speak and understand more than reasonable Thai, so there are no communication problems in that area.
Now I want to have an “in-depth” conversation, what is that by the way, can someone explain it to me?, within 5 minutes her interest is gone, her concentration is at zero, she starts yawning and looking for other things to do to not talk about it. , every now and then, we have to talk about painful things, take funeral insurance as an example, what happens if one of us dies, do we stay in the Netherlands when the children are grown or do we go to Thailand, that seems quite profound to me , in any case, topics of considerable importance, but she doesn't want to talk about them, she can't even, because she can't pay attention to them, is it disinterest or fear to make decisions, even she doesn't want to talk about that .
Live today, care tomorrow, that is the motto of many Thais and that is why, in my opinion, it is impossible to have in-depth conversations with a Thai.
I completely disagree with that and have never experienced that, when it mattered, language was a problem in arriving at a good solution. Anyone who says this underestimates both their own and their partner's ability to explain something to each other.
I personally have and always have to do it in my second language, English, and have had to master the language for both myself and my partner and we have no problem explaining to each other something that needs to be discussed in detail and knowing that my partner didn't speak a word of English let alone Dutch 15 years ago, take my hat off to her as her understanding and knowledge of the English language is 100 times better than my understanding and knowledge of the Thai language.
Greetings.
I think emotional conversations are meant here, how you deal with emotions is culturally determined for that reason it will be difficult to have a deep conversation, Westerners are simply wired differently. The same applies to dealing with death and terrible diseases, a Thai deals with these phenomena very differently than a Westerner and they will never understand your emotions 100%, which makes it impossible for us to have an in-depth conversation. They deal with these emotions very differently. They can therefore not really share your sadness or fear. Yes holding a hand or some words of encouragement, but not feeling our emotions as Westerners experience them. It is incomprehensible to a Thai that Westerners can get so angry. A Westerner understands "reasonable" anger or frustrations and often leaves those emotions for what it is, let someone rage for a while and then show understanding and talk about it, while a Thai in this case remains incomprehensible. Also a quarrel or fierce disagreement that you can have with a friend or family member, for example, where you can vent to your partner and discuss the reasonable or unreasonable, that will also be difficult for a Thai to understand. This has nothing to do with intelligence (although sometimes on both sides
Indeed, an in-depth conversation with my Thai partner is not possible in the way that you could in the Netherlands.
A more important aspect, however, is the cultural difference. You need to master that first. For example, I myself tend to argue loudly, well that won't help you, on the contrary.
My wife is quite inventive. A camel is 'an animal with a mountain on the back' while a helicopter is 'an airplane with a fan in the top'. Oh well, I could go on and on.
What also plays a role is not only intelligence, but especially social intelligence.
In short, I can still name a few things, but the most important thing is that you love each other and are happy with each other.
I have purchased a pictograph book so that I can point out what I mean, which saves communication and helps prevent misunderstandings.
My experience is that despite body sign language and aids such as my pictograms, years of education and culture do not remove the difference in thinking. I always think when I see my girlfriend nodding in a friendly yes that she understood maybe 20% even though her English is good. We Farangs are all of the opinion that we have the wisdom and since listening is not our strongest side anyway and we are often doers we inadvertently create the miscommunication on which the partner enlists the help of the family and yes they are all intertwined with their culture and quite conservative.
For heaven's sake, don't try to fool yourself by learning the language because believe me that will produce even more misconceptions than clarity.
Be patient put your ego aside and treat your partner with respect take the time to discuss important matters but also leave a lot of things to your partner, equality and mutual respect has prevented many conflicts. Your partner is also a mature person with knowledge and ideas.
Adapt but don't lose yourself. Remember that you can't do it alone in your own country,
Together you stand strong. Give trust and you will receive love in return.
Here till death do us part there if only I make her glad.
The sun doesn't shine every day in Thailand either.
My wife, who has become established, now in possession of Dutch Nationality (process of just under 5 years) communicates excellently in Dutch. Deep conversations? What are those?
Conversations about politics, deep philosophical thoughts, world economy…? She speaks English and Dutch, but the general development has stalled at the level of rural education in Isan.
WWII? Japanese in Thailand? Hitler? Or recently and in your own region, Khmer Rouge, Cambodia, Vietnam? They have no idea!
So let's leave that out.
Conversations about the upbringing of the children, about school, the doctor, money matters inside and outside the home, insurance, taxes and work and of course the relationship, are easy to do, ... and that cultural differences come to the fore is insurmountable.
I have more trouble with jokes. Never caught my wife telling a joke.
If I try to save a situation with a joke, it is immediately taken too seriously.
Example: She wants to go to Paris. She tells this in front of my father. and who says Paris is the city of love. I'm joking: Oh then we don't have to go there anymore, we've been there before and we're already married,..... So you immediately get the question whether I don't love her anymore.......
So I have more trouble with it than with the need for a profound conversation.
Beautifully stated Eric.
It is indeed not easy to understand the influence of the Otto-Germanic Empire on our culture or a simple joke.
Everyday matters can be discussed perfectly, with some common sense and patience, and if the relationship is built on the right foundation.
Secondly : how do you have a conversation with a person who has neither speech nor hearing ?
With gestures!!! I had a friend like that for years and it went wonderfully, but unfortunately he passed away about ten years ago.
Didit.
I think it's just the same as here in Europe, America, Russia and you name it, we all come from a certain environment in where we grew up and life experiences we have with others who grew up in a different country and environment, but basically we are all the same.
I have been married to a Thai woman for 20 years so had a lot of life with it and also had a large family, but only had a few deep conversations in those 20 years and that too on a certain level, while I was with other Thai women and gentlemen could have an in-depth conversation while it was in full English, I know the Thai language a bit but at most 50%, but despite the fact that I now live in the Netherlands and am abruptly divorced, I will continue to study the Thai language with reading and write when I'm back on track.
Have already responded, but don't want to remember the next thing that happened today. Irregularly, two boys come to sell a small TATA truck plastic bottles with drinking water. We are a reasonable customer. Last week we come across that cart 2 x in another village and my girlfriend says O the men with the water have been. Now they are at the door and complain that they have already been 2 x for nothing and that it costs money. Does she blame me, that I probably didn't hear it (they're honking) Someone has to be blamed, as long as it's not Thai. So I don't mind that, but here it comes; she still blames me. Losing face can go very far I think.
Little Johnny goes to school: present tense. Jantje went to school: past tense. Gerrie wants an in-depth conversation about the question of guilt, etc.: lost time!
A truly in-depth conversation with a Thai partner is perfectly possible, but there are a few conditions attached to this, first and foremost I assume that this conversation will be conducted in English, which means that the man must have very good English or speaks perfect English, then the girl is sent to school for 3 years, 3 hours a day, the teachers here in Pattaya are extremely skilled, because their mother tongue is usually English, they do an internship here for several months, not counting the expenses 30 It was Bath during the week at the time, but the man had to deal with her homework every evening and teach her the perfect pronunciation of the different words, also her spelling and grammar, I know a woman who passed the entrance exam after 3 years of course for Burapa University. Now after a few years they speak English perfectly and fluently, can also write the language and read and also follow news on TV, the only problem is if they really want to learn English and what they are willing to do for it. That woman also knows Elvis Presley more and better, also knows who Leonardo da Vinci is and Marilyn Monroe, her husband bought all the films of famous and less famous people and gave her explanations until she understood who they were, what their lives had been, etc. Yes, you do have to spend a few hours a day doing that. But it is quite possible to give a Thai woman a cultural baggage that even some Dutch or Belgians can take advantage of, but if the man here has only obtained a lower secondary grade with a passing grade, that will be very difficult. How can you get your girlfriend to look something up on the internet if you KNOW nothing about it yourself??? or don't know how to send an email yourself, it is very difficult to teach someone something you know nothing about yourself. The woman I knew even acted as an interpreter for Business People several times. So as you can see, it is perfectly possible to get a Thai woman a high-ranking position.
GR. Freddy
Having an in-depth conversation:
What is Deep?
For me that is talking about things where your feelings play a role, such as:
What do you think about same gender relations or the 3rd gender
What to do with your body after your death, choice whether you want to be buried or cremated or make your body available for medical research or medical education or donorship.
Differences of faith, pros and cons of the different religions
Also discuss why the majority of Buddhist monks are not self-sufficient and why there are/were monk groups (Jesuits, Capuchins, etc.) in Europe who took care of themselves and through studies helped the farmers to increase their production, helped with the harvesting and community education. Don't come up with the soul-saving/winning comment now. Just try to get to the surface why making merits (offerings/gifts) makes your soul cleaner. Or why the great lord in the village or area, who everyone whispers that he has amassed his capital in a shady way, now has a great temple built for even more glory of himself or is it to brush away his misdeeds in this world and even let it come back a step higher in his next life.
Buddhism is comparable to Christianity (Catholic/Protestant?) in terms of merit.
This includes (not) killing animals, including insects and beetle-like creatures. As long as you don't slaughter the animal yourself, you can eat it. And what happens to the butcher? Will it go to hell…. obviously not as long as he/she does merits eg to the temple community 🙂 This is an example of a (in-depth) conversation. If I kill a mosquito or kick a cockroach flat, I will be blamed, I will come back in my next life (reincarnation) as an insect etc.
My answer is invariably, accompanied by a broad grin: they haven't paid the rent or luckily, then I'll have it easier in my next life then I don't have to have philosophical or in-depth conversations, just nice and physical hard work
It gives me a glimpse into her way of thinking and she gets a glimpse into my soul's stirrings.
Based on the foregoing, I can say that I have in-depth conversations with my Thai from Bangkok. We all have to do it with a joke, otherwise the viewing flap will close 🙂
It is clearly visible in the responses of many bloggers that in-depth conversations are apparently only possible in English. I think it's ridiculous. This is a language that is a foreign language for a Dutch + Belgian as well as for Thai. Incomprehensible why, for example, a conversation cannot be conducted in Thai or Dutch? Australian, USA and or Oxford English have huge differences. What are we going for?. Do we do that because most Dutch people already speak good English? I think so, otherwise we would have chosen the French or German language? The Dutch speak both languages less or not at all. The Belgians again.
Any expats who stay longer and more often in Thailand should follow a compulsory integration course. Just like, for example, Thais who want to come to the Netherlands. He or she who cannot and especially does not want to do this can stay outside. After 5 years in Thailand, many expats can't even count to 10, say the days of the week and months in Thai by heart. This intolleranz is completely incomprehensible to me. I am convinced that a Ned. expat who, for example, will live in Florida within the year speaks perfect USA English.