Aanleiding
There are actually two reasons for writing this post. One is a request from a colleague to write a paper together for a conference in Geneva on cross-cultural management. The other is a 'gentle' refusal (up to three times) by my wife to take the bus home from Don Muang airport instead of the taxi. These things got me writing.
The Culture
Of course, Thais resemble the Dutch (and Belgians) in many respects. They eat and drink, sleep, make love and so on. And of course they – just like us – want to grow old in good health, not have to worry about money and paying bills, children and grandchildren who are intelligent and don't go astray, an attractive (preferably young) life partner who is also is faithful again and loves you dearly and daily our food and drink.
Yet the Thais drink much less coffee, beer, milk and buttermilk than we do and they eat much more sticky rice and somtam than we do. There are Thais who sleep on the floor or on a very thin mattress instead of a bed. I don't know if we are better at making love than the Thais. Well, that we have or have created the image that we are better at it. And Thai women who married a foreigner usually agree. A number of the mentioned differences are obvious and can be easily explained, either with socio-economic factors or with climatic factors: rice is cheaper in Thailand and does not grow in the Netherlands. There are far fewer cows in Thailand than in the Netherlands, part of the Thai population is lactose-tolerant and in the Netherlands we don't talk about farmers but about agricultural entrepreneurs.
Efficiency and effectiveness
The ways in which the Thai and the Dutch try to achieve their goals are quite different, in my experience. Let me try to make it clear with the difference between the classic concepts of effectiveness and efficiency.
Effectiveness is the extent to which a person or organization achieves its goal. If one achieves the goal completely – no matter how – the effectiveness is 100%. Efficiency is synonymous with effectiveness and means that one achieves one's goal at the lowest possible cost. These costs do not only have to be expressed in money, but can also consist of loss of time (although the Americans always say: 'time is money and money is money'), environmental damage, damage to friendships, image or (business) relationships. After living (but certainly working) here in Thailand for 12 years, it is clear to me that Thais and Dutch people do not differ in their views on effectiveness. But we do differ widely in the definition of what efficiency is, or to be more precise: which elements we give more priority and which less. I will try to clarify that with some real, not made up examples. I think the reader of this blog can add many real-life examples to that.
Golf course
After his career as a director of a private hospital, a friend of mine is still associated with the hospital as a member of the Advisory Board with Human Resources in his portfolio. Each year, the management determines which surgeons receive how much bonus, based on their contributions to the hospital's financial result. And every year there are discussions between the surgeons about the size of the bonus. My Thai friend solves this as follows. He goes golfing with any surgeon who has comments about the bonus. This will take a few weeks. Then he works out a compromise and then discusses it with those surgeons during a second round of golf. That will take another few weeks. If he is really convinced that his proposal will be adopted unanimously, he will bring it to the meeting. It takes a lot of time, none of the 'rebellious' surgeons lose face, no discussion or collisions in the meeting and team spirit and pride in their own hospital even improve. Efficient in a way.
Bus or taxi
In recent months, my wife regularly flies to Udonthani for work. She appreciates that I take her to the airport and pick her up again after a few days, especially in the evenings. Now there is a bus (number 25) every 4 minutes from Don Muang airport to Sanam Luang (Khao San Road, it says on the bus) that stops in front of the arrival hall, goes directly onto the toll road (and only leaves it in Yowaraat) and who arrives at the destination in approximately 40 minutes for a payment of 50 Baht per person. From Sanam Luang it is then 50 Baht for a taxi or 20 Baht for the bus that stops almost in front of our door. Travel time maximum 1 hour. I know because I take this route when I go to the airport, without my wife. I think very effective and also efficient. My wife, however, does not wish to go by bus. She prefers to walk 400 meters to the taxi stand, wait there (at least 30 minutes, but recently more than an hour) and pay 250 baht for the taxi that often takes the wrong road. He actually stops at the door. Travel time: 1,5 to 2 hours. If you understand this efficiency, you can say it.
New dean
Job rotation is the rule at national universities for deans, heads of a faculty. The period is 3 years and can only be extended once, provided that the dean is reappointed (and that is not automatic) and that he wishes to do so. So there is an application round every 1 years. There is an application committee that selects the 3 best candidates (including the current dean). These three may then present themselves and their plans for the future of the faculty in a meeting of lecturers and staff. At the end of the presentations, all employees may indicate in writing and anonymously which candidate they prefer and why. It all sounds wonderful and 'democratic', but in the corridors it is already known a few weeks before the presentation day who the president prefers, so all this stuff is pure theater. Last time there was a little hitch at my institute. The presidential nominee was certainly not favored by the vast majority of employees. That was known. What to do because it must seem natural that the president is making the right choice and that the employees underline that? Well….the opinion poll among the employees after the presentations was – without giving a reason – not held. It seems that the ranks are closed. Efficient?
Democracy
Should we, as Dutch people, look differently at the democratic process in Thailand? Thailand will undoubtedly become a democracy in the coming decades, but things are going in a different way than we Dutch think or advocate. Although….the recent quarrel over the ministerial posts in the new government resembles the formation process in the Netherlands. Such differences of opinion and blaming others do not really fit into Thai culture. You solve such matters with a lot of dinners or on the golf course (that can take a few weeks or months, but training for a long time is not a problem in the Netherlands and certainly in Belgium) or you simply decide authoritarian and say that there are no (written) agreements at all. are. Efficient?
To be efficient and effective in any culture there must be consensus: agreement. It seems to me that the best man on the golf course is doing a great job with that. You can also see that in Brussels at the moment. All that long and nightly talk and consultation is only to reach agreement in the decisions to be taken, so that they are effective and efficient for the coming years. So it has nothing to do with TH or culture.
The fact that Chris's wife prefers to wait an hour for a taxi instead of taking the bus may be a silent and secret protest against him because he brings her but does not always pick her up from Don Muang, which he knows she greatly appreciates. She is decisive and will persevere until he fully understands her position. In short: she has a personal motive that she believes is both efficient and legitimate.
In the example of looking for a new dean, there is authoritarian leadership. Is not productive in either TH or NL/BE. Unfortunately, this still happens far too often worldwide. So it has nothing to do with culture, let alone that of TH.
Nicely written Chris, you're trying to get your bearings, but life isn't math or a theorem from a management book. I recognize a lot of what you wrote down, but in the Netherlands I often had the same with women as you describe here about Thailand. Women think differently than men, what is logic to us is often something that needs to be talked about for them. Thinking and acting differently often has an attractive side for us straight men, otherwise we wouldn't like women.
What also strikes me here in Thailand, that doing two things at the same time, (multi tasking), but rarely occurs,
or actually do something meaningful, when the next customer is still out of sight for a long time. etc.. etc..
Chris, using your wife's example, I would simply ask 'honey, what is the advantage of the taxi over the bus?' (oid). Seems like a personal thing to me (for example: feels safer, I'm a sardine on the bus, I don't have to keep an eye on my things as closely in the taxi, etc.).
That with the dean is not a long-term approach, the dissatisfaction among the staff remains (unless the new dean surprises the colleagues and they come round). If there is too much dissatisfaction, it will express itself somewhere.
Assuming I don't know Chris (and his wife), but I'm guessing… “People can't see me on the bus, that's for Lo-So…”
That is indeed the stereotypical image in Thailand's class society. This is of course a possible answer, but you should never generalize. Just ask, maybe you'll get confirmation, maybe not. More importantly: can you understand the other person better based on the answer (whether you agree is verse 2 of course).
And if the answer is hiso vs loso, you can keep asking: what kind of image damage do you fear? But the bus has air conditioning, what do you mean transport for the kklojesvol? Something like that.
When both the bus (almost) and the taxi stop in front of the door at home, the neighbors see it. They don't know how long the ride took...
I've never really thought about it, but it is indeed very useful to distinguish between effectiveness (what I would call 'effective') and efficiency (what I would call 'effective'.)
As for culture, the following. An Isan farmer has more similarities with a Drenthe farmer than with a Thai banker, and the latter in turn has many similarities with an Amsterdam banker. The differences are therefore more in matters such as status, education and income than in culture, although there are also certain differences.
Golf is fairly expensive, in an Isan village people drink some beer together to discuss problems. I know a colleague in the Netherlands who has never been on a train and, she says, never will. Personal differences in preferences, thoughts and actions. are too often attributed exclusively to culture.
Tino, Tino, Tino anyway.
What does an Isan farmer have in common with a Thai banker: nationality, national anthem, right to vote for the Thai parliament and local representatives, language, expressions, TV channels, media, Buddhism, thoughts about marriage, sex, intercourse between men and women (private and in public), the Baht, all laws etc etc
What does the Isan farmer have in common with the Drenthe farmer? Except for the name of his profession bitter and very little. In any case not: income, education, government support, land policy, livestock, international regulations, fertilizer schemes, EU subsidies, technology and knowledge thereof, support from universities and agricultural schools, agricultural extension services, class organisations, a farmer in parliament……… …….but I like to be convinced otherwise….
Dear Chris,
If you consider absolutely everything, absolutely everything, to be culture, then you are right, and then culture has become a meaningless concept. Someone once wrote to me; 'Thai eat with their hands, and we (Dutch) find that strange'. Thais eat soup with a spoon, and the Dutch eat fries with their hands.
About your first paragraph, the Isan farmer and the Thai banker who have so much in common. That Thai banker may speak more English than Thai, watch CNN and BBC, go to very different kinds of parties, often pay in dollars and euros, really think differently about sex and marriage, definitely have a different kind of intercourse between men and women and listens to other laws. Do you want to bet that they have different opinions about democracy (on average)?
You must know a lot of bankers because you are in the highest circles. Ask if they would rather invite an Isan farmer to their wedding or a British banker.
I had to think about it for a moment: the similarities between me and an old Isan farmer.
We are both old and male. We liked sex, but yes, old age, we only make stupid jokes about it now, we love sticky rice with laab Isaan and eat it out of hand, we both try to live according to the principles of Buddhism and fail regularly, we both honor the humanity of the late King Bhumibol, we both speak Thai with a different accent, we both want more control and equality for the people and hate the arrogant elite in Bangkok, we try to live according to Thai law , we both have grandchildren with dual nationality, we both love Thailand and especially the Thai nature, sometimes we sing the Thai national anthem together, he says ai Tino to me and I say ai Eek, we do the same kind of volunteer work and we both want a cremation when we die……..
There are thousands of definitions of culture, but there are a few words that are almost always in the definition: shared (it's NOT about 'like'; there are a lot of people who are similar in spirit but don't share anything with each other), learned (culture is not in your DNA) and belonging to a group (ie you cannot share culture if you do not belong to the same group).
“A culture is a common world of experiences, values and knowledge that characterizes a particular social unit (a group). A social unit can be a country, but also a certain group of people who adhere to the same religion.”
Therefore, a Thai banker and a Thai farmer have much more in common with each other than the Thai banker does with any other foreign banker. And as said: it's not going to look like, speak English or go to other parties. And you may be surprised how much the farmer's and banker's views on mia-nois, gigs and the position of women are similar; much more than the opinion in the Netherlands about having mistresses.
I think you shouldn't explain your partner's behavior as 'culture'. I sometimes catch myself doing that, but of course it's not true. This not only shortens her, but also all the Thai people we try to pigeonhole unjustly. The behavior of a loner is never representative of a group, let alone of an entire population. Her refusal not to take the bus in relation to the way in which Thais deal with efficiency, therefore seems too far-fetched to me.
My wife is definitely not alone. Almost all of my lecturer colleagues (when asked) do not think about traveling by bus or – in general – public transport. That is apparently for the lower social classes. The admin staff does (I also meet them on the boat on the way to the office) but as soon as there is money they buy a car or motorcycle. Rather twice an hour in traffic jams a day than at home in 45 minutes by boat and bus.
In many areas the country is as inefficient as it can be. Just take the unimaginable number of civil servants who are often there as insurance against bad times. Take a look at any ministry and you will see plenty.
In addition, there is also the nonsensical habit of having to copy everything in multiples for all official papers and to sign sheet after sheet.
Transferring a VAT number from one district to another district within the municipality means first handing over a bunch of papers to one office so that there is a form that you unsubscribe and then back to the new office with all the papers to register.
It keeps you off the street and someone else can do it too and the latter seems to be the main reason for this inefficiency and the consensus is that it apparently doesn't interest much Thai people because you don't get tired of waiting.
What I don't quite understand is why she doesn't let a taxi pick her up.
If I need to go into town, I just call and the taxi will pick me up.