'Black list ANVR': two Thailand specialists
The ANVR website lists travel organizations by name, which the ANVR sees as 'suspicious'. There are also two on this list Thailand specialists, namely Thailandreisgids.nl from Gouda and Greenwoodtravel, based in Bangkok.
According to the ANVR, these travel companies may not be able to guarantee the financial obligations towards them travelers in case of bankruptcy and repatriation. On the website of the ANVR it can also be read that said tour operators cannot or cannot sufficiently demonstrate that they comply with the legal requirements regarding a financial guarantee obligation (Article 7:512 of the Dutch Civil Code).
Greenwoodtravel.nl
Greenwoodtravel is a travel company based in Bangkok. It is therefore not clear why this party is bound by Dutch legislation or obligations. Director/owner Ernst Otto Smit also wonders since when Dutch law applies to a Thai registered company? “We are the only foreign organization in the list. As a Thai organization tomorrow we are not a member of the ANVR and / or SGR. I've already asked this. We have a bond with the TAT and Green Wood Travel Co.,Ltd also has a bank guarantee of 5 million THB.
What happens to customers who have booked a flight ticket to Thailand online and the airline, travel organization or ticket seller goes bankrupt?” says Smit. He doesn't want to waste too many words on it.
Thailandtravelguide.nl
Is a small and relatively young tour operator, based in the Netherlands (Gouda). Director-owner Toon Mul does not understand the commotion. “We meet the requirements of the law, that we have taken adequate measures to deal with any calamities. However: fighting against the ANVR is pointless. That only costs time and money. We will therefore apply for membership of ANVR and SGR to get rid of this hassle. Incidentally, our sales are not affected. The customers also pay their hotels only when they cross the threshold in Thailand. So what's the risk? Moreover, SGR does not cover scheduled flights or bookings from non-Dutch citizens. Let it worry about that,” Mul explains when asked.
Quality
I would like to emphasize, however, that the list mentioned does not give an opinion on the quality of the travel organizations mentioned. For example, I know from my environment that Greenwoodtravel has many satisfied customers. Nevertheless, it is important that consumers are protected and can expect certainties when fulfilling their obligations. For example, the recent bankruptcy of De Vries Reizen from Drachten, many Thailand travelers duped.
Below is the full list.
'ANVR reporting list financial security' dated January 6, 2011:
Australian Holidays: www.australianholidays.nl
Avanta Reizen: www.avantareizen.nl
Battuta Reizen: www.battuta-reizen.nl
Pilgrimage Web Travel: www.bedevaartweb.com/reizen/
Bike the best: www.bikethebest.nl
Dobry Den Travel: www.dobryden.nl/
Hannibal Reizen: www.hannibalreizen.nl
Horizon Motorreizen: www.horizonmotorreizen.nl
Kazakhstan Travel: www.kazakhstanreizen.nl/
Loopendvuurtje: www.loopendvuurtje.nl
Meanderreizen: www.meanderreizen.nl
Orca Adventure: www.orcaavontuur.nl/
Pure New Zealand: www.puurnieuwzeeland.nl
Rusanova: www.rusanova-reizen.nl/
Setafrikareizen: www.setafrikareizen.com
Solmaz Reizen: www.solmazreizen.nl
Soul Divers: www.souldivers.nl
Suriname holidays: www.surinameholidays.nl
Thailandreisgids.nl: www.thailandreisgids.nl
Trans-sputnik: www.trans-sputnik.nl/
Travelers: www.travellers.nl
Via Travel: www.Dodezeekuur.nl
Voettocht.n: www.voettocht.nl
Wine walking tours: www.wijnwandelreizen.nl
YMCA holiday: www.ymca.nl
Zwerfsport Outdoor: www.zwerfsport.nl
Aragon Walking Tours: www.aragonwandelreizen.nl
Greenwoodtravel: www.greenwoodtravel.nl
Hispania Travel: www.hispania-travel.com
Source: www.anvr.nl
Greenwoodtravel is indeed based in Thailand, but it does serve the Dutch market online. Sec for this reason it could be that the ANVR/SGR monitors the activities of this organization. It would otherwise be very simple for a travel organization to circumvent the supervision of the ANVR/SGR, namely registering on 'paper' in another country and selling travel, etc. in the Netherlands. In addition, it would also distort competition towards other travel organizations that have registered in the Netherlands and therefore fall under the strict supervision of the ANVR / SGR.
@Sam Loi. There are more foreign tour operators that serve the Dutch market and are not members of the ANVR / SGR, so that kite does not apply. To prevent speculation, the editors will inquire with the source: the ANVR. I assume they can justify this.
I too am looking into things. And if necessary I will post my findings here.
goedemorgen,
Thank you for forwarding this blog.
Green Wood Travel has been doing good business for almost 20 years and is a popular Thai tour operator.
We are doing well financially and commercially and this is not always appreciated in the Netherlands.
As a tour operator registered in Thailand, we are not allowed to be a member of the Dutch SGR or ANVR.
Of course there are many other foreign tour operators that offer tours/tickets in the Netherlands but are not located there. All these organizations may not be members of the ANVR and/or SGR.
The internet offers endless possibilities and options and Green Wood Travel makes use of that. My letter to these Dutch organizations (ANVR & SGR) was to also offer foreign organizations that do business on the Dutch market access to the ANVR/SGR. This is not possible.
However, Green Wood Travel can offer ticket insurance to customers if the airline goes bankrupt. But cannot take out insurance in the Netherlands to insure the travel money (insolvency) for customers. In Germany you can!
What we do when customers are concerned is to ask for a deposit for tickets/hotels that needs to be written out/paid immediately and the rest can be paid in Thailand.
Then we turn things around. We trust the customers as the customers trust Green Wood Travel.
The choice is up to the consumer where to book.
Four days ago we received a message from the ANVR for the publication of the 'black list.'
Today we instructed a lawyer in the Netherlands to write to the ANVR for committing an unlawful act to place Green Wood Travel Co. Ltd on the 'black list' as the only foreign company. Dutch law applies in the Netherlands, not for Thai companies only established in Thailand.
Are there any questions and/or wishes? Let me know.
Greetings from Bangkok,
Ernst Otto Smit
[email protected]
http://www.greenwoodtravel.co.th
http://www.greenwoodtravel.be
http://www.greenwoodtravel.nl
Dear Ernst-Otto Smit,
I read in the message that you have written to the ANVR and the SGR to register your foreign company as a member. This would not be possible.
I assume you received a letter back from these institutions. Surely there will be a bit more in it than the mere message that this is not possible? Surely there must be a reason given?
For ANVR you have to be SGR.
read on http://www.sgr.nl/uploads/Deelnemersreglement.pdf
Article 3: The principal place of business must be in the Netherlands and the organization must be governed by Dutch law.
I'm still waiting for a response from Ernst-Otto. I am curious about the motivation or reasoning of the anvr/sgr.
Article 3 of the regulations states that membership can only be acquired by legal entities and partnerships under Dutch law. Greenwood has chosen as a legal form for the Ltd.
Below is an excerpt from the correspondence between Green Wood Travel, ANVR and the Thai Traffic Bureau in the Netherlands.
Please note that Green Wood Travel does not offer package tours. The rest is known.
Enjoy reading >>
We believe that Green Wood Travel presents itself with a Dutch website and therefore enters the Dutch market with offers for package travel to Dutch consumers and therefore, in our opinion, must comply with Dutch law. The consumer may also assume that given your site (Dutch language, payment can be made in Euros to a Dutch bank account).
If a consumer books a package holiday on the internet with a foreign tour operator, the situation is different and he will not count on the Dutch protection of art. 7:500 ff
Our position is supported by the provision in art.7:500 paragraph 2:
A person who acts as an intermediary for a tour operator not established in the Netherlands in the course of his business is regarded as a tour operator vis-à-vis his counterparty.
Greetings from Bangkok,
Ernst Otto
Indeed, Greenwoodtravel is the odd one out.
All the more remarkable is that they do have a NL bank account, so that customers can easily make their payments.
So you might think that Greenwoodtravel is trying to evade NL legislation. Why else not settle in NL, even if only on paper?
In my opinion, Greenwoodtravel does sell package tours, after all, a package tour is an organized trip, so ticket + hotel + local transfers booking.
Article
Only those companies are eligible for participation
travel agreements (hereinafter 'tour operators'), contracts of transport (hereinafter
'carriers') or contracts of accommodation (hereinafter 'providers of accommodation').
as well as travel agents. Moreover, participation can only be obtained by
legal entities and partnerships under Dutch law with their principal place of business in the Netherlands as well as by natural persons domiciled in the Netherlands or exercising their main business activities in the Netherlands
In other words, you must also want to pay your tax in the Netherlands.
From the ANVR website:
“In the Netherlands, every travel organization is obliged to protect consumers financially against bankruptcy of the company. The travel company must also offer the consumer a repatriation guarantee in case the company goes bankrupt and the consumer is still staying at his holiday destination (Section 7:512 of the Dutch Civil Code). ”
One way to cover yourself against this is to join the SGR. However, this is not mandatory. Cover against these risks in another (guaranteed) way is also possible.
However, at Greenwoodtravel you are not covered against these risks. Hence also being placed on the blacklist.
In my opinion, the ANVR is not committing an unlawful act with this.
Good morning Hansi,
I fight your vision. Green Wood Travel is a company established and registered in Thailand. Green Wood Travel also has no representation, branch or agency in the Netherlands and does not work with an intermediary. Green Wood Travel expressly does not fall under Dutch law and as a result, Article 7:512 of the Dutch Civil Code, which you have cited, does not apply.
The above does not alter the fact that Green Wood Travel is an advocate of good consumer protection. Green Wood Travel is therefore affiliated with interest groups in Thailand, ATTA (Association of Thai Travel Agents) and TAT (Tourism Authority of Thailand). Everyone has the opportunity to inquire about Green Wood Travel with these authorities.
Furthermore, Green Wood Travel has tried several times to become a member of the ANVR and SGR on a voluntary basis. However, membership of both organizations was and is excluded for foreign companies.
In 2009, Green Wood Travel therefore commissioned research, again on a voluntary basis, into alternative options for providing additional “insolvency cover” to its customers. Green Wood Travel subsequently included various forms of consumer protection, including first-line protection from the TAT, the possibility of insuring flight tickets and the voluntary establishment of a guarantee account with substantial funds. Green Wood Travel can therefore, without being legally obliged to do so, comply with financial guarantee obligations in the unlikely event that this is necessary.
It all depends on how you interpret the BW
.
Section 7:512 applies to all travel organizations.
This also includes foreign travel organizations that operate on the NL market and therefore sell a trip to the Dutch.
You have indicated that you will summon the ANVR. The judge will therefore ultimately indicate whose view is the correct one.
An apparently hired and dearly paid response on the part of Greenwood that also doesn't cut it. In a meaningless comment they try to present a different image. That Greenwood would have included all kinds of consumer protection provisions in its services to customers. The TAT is called in as if this organization would offer first-line protection to Greenwood's customers.
However, Greenwood fails to indicate what this protection really entails, such as providing a further description in the event of a bankruptcy of one of its members. I would therefore like to suggest the following to you and would like to have an answer to it:
I book and pay for a package holiday to Thailand for 14 days. I paid the full travel sum on 15.01.2011 and the trip starts on 01.03.2011. I have a confirmation from Greenwood Travel that the travel sum has been paid. Greenwood goes bankrupt on 01.02.2011 and can no longer guarantee that my holiday will continue.
My question to Greenwood is now: what next? After a few days I then receive a message from a trustee that Greenwood is in a state of bankruptcy and that the trip I booked and paid for may not be able to go ahead. Now I would like to know from the lawyer or lawyer of Greenwood if I can go on vacation on 01.03.2011?
I was already afraid of it, at first Greenwoodtravel is there like the chickens to "show" that they are wrongly on an "alerting list" of the ANVR, if the questions become really critical, you no longer hear them ... ……
@Sam Loi
Does that exist in Thailand, a curator? I'm afraid that if GWT goes bankrupt or something like that, you won't hear anything from Thailand anymore.
Or that they just left with the northern sun at some point, is of course also possible.
How many people find an ANVR or SGR membership important nowadays, especially now that there are so many things that, as Greenwood rightly points out, are not covered, but are part of modern travel.
The ANVR is a trade association and not a consumer organisation. The interest of the ANVR is therefore to protect the Dutch travel agencies, not the consumer.
But who wants to pay to be protected these days? We all prefer to buy a plane ticket to bangkok for the lowest price at 333TRAVEL or Cheaptickets and then arrange a hotel on the spot. We prefer to put the few tens of difference that a travel agency has to throw on top to compete with it in our own pocket in exchange for a bit of risk.
I certainly think it's important. How many tourists do not get stranded at their holiday address? Or have they lost their (full) down payment?
Happened a few times last summer. Your short summer vacation will cost you nothing
€ 500, but suddenly € 1200.
And individual plane tickets are not guaranteed anywhere. That is why it is important that you receive your tickets as soon as possible after payment.
The only risk you still run is bankruptcy of the airline.
Very many people Tinus and it is not for nothing that the legislator has prescribed the rules in consumer matters. This means, among other things, that the parties may not deviate from this by agreement or in general terms and conditions. And as a legal entity under Dutch law you cannot deviate from this.
Whether you travel modern or old-fashioned as a consumer, in both cases you will have to pay for it. And if the agency where you have booked and paid for a package holiday goes bankrupt, it is nice if the SGR fully compensates you.
European legislation has been in place for some time now when it comes to delayed flights. Companies not established in the EU are also bound by it.
Consumers must be protected against the bankruptcy of travel companies.
Why not take out insurance as you can in Germany?
However, Green Wood Travel can offer ticket insurance to customers if the airline goes bankrupt. But cannot take out insurance in the Netherlands to insure the travel money (insolvency) for customers. In Germany this is possible. I don't know if this is possible in other countries.
Green Wood Travel approached various insurance companies in 2009, but it is not possible in the Netherlands.
This would be a good solution for consumers and travel organizations.
Just a short comment though. I understand that Green Wood Travel has approached several companies for some kind of insurance that should cover the customer in case the company where the booking and payment was made goes bankrupt.
It is not the company that should take out such insurance, but the consumer. If a company that has such an insurance goes bankrupt, a claim of that company against the insurer arises at that time – depending on the number of bookings, of course. This is of no use to the customer, because you will undoubtedly also know that this claim is part of the bankrupt estate.
It must therefore always be the customer who takes out such insurance. As a company, you can accommodate the customer in this by having the company pay the premium that must be paid. The company is then free to decide whether or not to include the premium in the travel sum.
This means that the travel organization takes out insurance for the customer, whereby the customer is insured against a number of risks, such as bankruptcy of the travel organization.
The SGR is such an insurance policy.
The question is whether this has covered everything, the intermediary/seller of the holiday trips, the travel agency (usually independent), can also go bankrupt.
Thank you for your responses and good luck in your efforts towards the anvr/sgr.
An excerpt from the 2009/2010 insolvency research report for Green Wood Travel.
Read on >>>>
Insurance to cover insolvency
Particularly due to the emergence of the internet and the cross-border activities of various European travel organisations, criticism has come of the policy of, among others, the SGR, which stipulates that only Dutch travel organizations can participate. It has also been determined that the SGR can request a higher bank guarantee as the foreign turnover is higher. This has also been criticized. Research has shown that German travel organizations in particular have become active on the Dutch market. These organizations (without setting up an independent subsidiary, see also becoming a member of SGR) cannot become a participant. However, that does not mean that these travel organizations do not offer certainties. In the case of Germany, the certainty is enshrined in law.
The provider is obliged to cover insolvency by means of insurance. Because of this obligation, the certainty in Germany is many times stronger than in the Netherlands. After all, a travel organization can become a member of SGR, but it is not necessary. Large, globally operating insurers offer opportunities.
Dear Ernst-Otto, I've just come from the pub and have had to listen to a lot of nagging from people who think in their bland experience what society should look like. And that is quite tiring, especially when you know that reality is very different. Anyway, I've read the message and will come back to it tomorrow, sabai?
Much discussion about GreenWood Travel, since it is based in Thailand, only the TAT has something to say about this. ANVR could say “Please note, these are not Dutch companies and are therefore not affiliated with the SGR”. But don't just mention GTW. If GWT would like to be connected, a subsidiary company could of course be started in NL.
For the rest, it is useful to take a closer look at what certain travel organizations actually are. It seems like any madman could start a travel agency. There are of course some drawbacks to this. In addition to financial disadvantages, there can also be other risks.
Chang Noi
Air Berlin is a German organization registered in the Berlin Chamber of Commerce. In their GTC they state that German law applies in case of disputes. They also state that commercial matters should be dealt with in Berlin. The latter is unclear, I think they want to indicate that the court in Berlin has jurisdiction in cases against Air Berlin. so if you have a dispute with Air Berlin that you cannot resolve out of court, you will have to take legal action against Air Berlin in Berlin. That can become an expensive joke, because who of us knows how the legal process is arranged in Germany.
If buying a ticket is a consumer purchase, then the mandatory provisions regarding consumer purchase apply. Including a choice of law that is foreign to the consumer in a GTC and also declaring the Dutch court incompetent therein can result in nullity or voidability.
In any case, Air Berlin is not affiliated with the ANVR/SGR. Air Berlin also has no business address in the Netherlands. However, Air Berlin is left alone by the Dutch authorities. Perhaps this could be related to the fact that Air Berlin's registered office is located within the EU. I don't know for sure;
On the other hand, Eva air does have a business address in Amsterdam and is also known at the Chamber of Commerce. I have not checked whether she is a member of the ANVR/SGR. Those interested should do so themselves.
I understand that Greenwood Travel has sought legal assistance. Perhaps that will kick things off. I would indicate in each case that Greenwood is treated unequally compared to any other foreign company. Whether this will help? I have my doubts.
In my opinion, Air Berlin is primarily an airline and not a tour operator. Tickets are not covered by SGR anyway and there are other regulators for airlines.
If you want to compare on the basis of equal treatment, look at a visithailand.nl
They are not SGR either.
Or check the list published by the Thai tourist office. http://www.thaisverkeersbureau.nl/Reisorganisaties/Reisorganisaties_in_thailand.asp
I have relied on the message from Greenwood – see above – that it does not sell package tours in the Netherlands. The comparison with Air Berlin is therefore valid. If Air Berlin is free to sell tickets in the Netherlands, this option should in principle also apply to other foreign companies, including Greenwood. Like cases should be treated alike.
Neither Air Berlin nor Greenwood have a bad reputation and as far as I know they have not been involved in a bankruptcy before. So why is one blacklisted and the other not. In addition, it concerns players on the Dutch market and not the Thai one. I have no business on the sites you quoted.
Visitthailand.nl is a player on the Dutch market, similar to the design of greenwood travel, so that comparison is relevant. I don't understand why Greenwood is and visitshailand.nl is not mentioned in this list. And in this way there are even more players on the Dutch market who work in a similar way to greenwood.
@ Sam Loi and others. I promised to write something about it today, but I can't. I also have to sit down because the story is different than you think.
I have spoken with the ANVR and a few other people. I will present the facts in an article, but also my own opinion. There's something fishy about it. And I think that the ANVR has been rather careless. I will explain why in due course.
I am anxious to read this blog.
If I come across a big cliffhanger, say "I'll explain why in due course."
Khun Peter do you already know a little more?
Gr.
Eric
I just read that Expedia.nl has not yet provided any clarity to the ANVR, but that they are still talking to it, so that they are not yet on the blacklist. They are apparently too big to enforce consumer law?
What the ANVR does resembles cartel formation and that is prohibited by European law.
Moreover, the list is rather arbitrary and does not include a number of travel organizations that work just like Green Wood Travel. So it seems a bit like bullying the competitors and Green Wood happens to be a great tour operator with a lot of experience and many satisfied customers. The ANVR is a club of us and knows us especially the "established" travel organizations that all sell uniform sausage. Indeed Peter, this is a smell!
Comment from a friend from the international insurance world: The Dutch still insure their aquarium against fire. Just how big is the risk? I've been traveling a lot for a long time and I've never had any problems. All those insurances and premiums that people only pay in the Netherlands for a minimal risk ... even if I had to pay 'double' for a trip a few times, I would have been even cheaper without all those premiums.
Has anyone on this blog ever been seriously disadvantaged by a travel agency that went bankrupt, I wonder?