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Change procedure signature legalization income statement (2)

By Editorial
Posted in Expats and retirees, Income statement, Dutch embassy, News from Thailand
Tags: , ,
November 18 2016

There are many questions about the new procedure of the Dutch embassy as of January 1, for applying for a signature legalization on an income statement.

Gringo asked for further explanation and we received a message from Mr. J. Haenen (head of internal and consular affairs):

“We have taken note of the questions from the readers of Thailandblog in response to the recently published article about the change in the procedure for applying for a signature legalization on an income statement. 

This change has been implemented on the instructions of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in The Hague.

We are currently working on additional information in this regard, which will be announced as soon as possible after coordination with the Ministry in The Hague.”

We therefore ask our readers to be patient a little longer, so that answers may be formulated to the many questions that exist. As soon as more is known, we will publish this on Thailandblog.

Number of times read: 224

47 responses to “Change procedure signature legalization income statement (2)”

  1. Adriaan says up
    18 November 2016 at 07: 40

    Talked to the Austrian consul this morning, nothing has changed with him about the group of men who are married to a Thai woman, he can no longer help them, they have to go to the embassy in Bangkok. That was his answer to my question whether there has also been a change with him would take place

  2. Petervz says up
    18 November 2016 at 10: 05

    There must be a possibility to limit appearing in person to one time only (eg for a passport application or such an income statement).
    The embassy also legalizes signatures of, for example, the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Those Thai officials do not always appear in person, but the signatures are announced in advance.

  3. eric kuijpers says up
    18 November 2016 at 10: 31

    Well, if everything takes place on the advice of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, then I am curious why you have to take the property tax assessment with you, a giro account that has not existed for years (has become ING), proof of voluntary health insurance and the health insurance fund that has almost No longer existed for 11 years (expired 1-1-2006), evidence of the AWBZ that has not existed for almost two years (expired 1-1-2015), and more.

    The conditions as on the embassy's site have been dug up from an archive somewhere and come from a list of conditions that are completely irrelevant here.

    I would also like to know what the embassy means by 'original documentary evidence', because for me 'original' is what I pull out of my printer from the SVB and pension fund, say the annual statements. This also applies to proof of payments or receipts by bank. For many pieces there is only the digital highway.

    I have contacted the embassy by email and hope that this will also be done by people with a Dutch passport but retired from another country, and by people with a non-NL passport but a pension from the Netherlands, such as the thousands who have spent their entire lives with Philips or DSM have worked.

    • Martin Vasbinder says up
      18 November 2016 at 10: 44

      Erik,

      I have also written a letter asking, among other things, what to do with those who receive a pension or income from a country other than the Netherlands. Also a question about logistics. There could be waiting lists.

  4. Petervz says up
    18 November 2016 at 11: 29

    The tax assessment of the past year is also a nice one. I do not yet have this for 2015 and if I receive it, it will say absolutely nothing about my income at the time of renewal. Immigration won't agree with a statement from a year or more ago I thought.

  5. Jack says up
    18 November 2016 at 12: 13

    The annoying thing is that people who have to extend their visa in January/February 2017 and can deposit 800.000 baht into their Thai account cannot have it in the bank for the 3 months that is required.

  6. Carlos says up
    18 November 2016 at 12: 38

    What happens to the information provided,
    Is that covered enough, or will the tax authorities
    Watching.

    • RobN says up
      18 November 2016 at 12: 52

      Dear Carlos.
      do you have a digid? If so, take a look http://www.mijnoverheid.nl. Go to your Personal details and then take a look under My registered income. The SVB and the pension fund pass on the amounts to the Tax and Customs Administration.

      • Cees1 says up
        19 November 2016 at 02: 22

        That is of no use to you. It must be legalized
        be provided by the embassy.

  7. Carlos says up
    18 November 2016 at 13: 43

    RobN
    Unfortunately no digi, that's what I thought myself, so I can't
    Watch unless there are other methods

    • Wim says up
      19 November 2016 at 03: 08

      RobN you can now also apply for a digiD at the embassy, ​​you have to go to BKK again, they still do not digitize, such as arranging something by e-mail.

      • RobN says up
        19 November 2016 at 09: 40

        Dear Willem,

        I asked Carlos if he had DigId. I myself have owned DigID for years.

  8. ton says up
    18 November 2016 at 14: 03

    That is also another possibility to prove your income. You can request a statement of your "registered income" from the tax authorities by telephone, having this translated by a sworn translator should, in my opinion, be sufficient for the Immigration Service as proof of income.

    However, I understand between the lines that for some people the problem is that they can prove "insufficient" income to meet the Thai immigration requirement. (that must be because the Thai Baht has become so much more expensive). I don't think you can expect the Dutch government to help these people to fool the Thai government, even if for some it leads to a forced return to the Netherlands due to the stricter immigration regulations and a more expensive Thai Baht. even possibly leaving wife and children behind.
    Of course, no one but the person himself is responsible for this. (He/she did not take into account a more unfavorable exchange rate in the future when the decision was made to emigrate to Thailand on the basis of a (often partial) state pension.
    Nevertheless, it is my belief that the Dutch government should help these people, returning to the Netherlands would be much less beneficial for the Dutch state than "filling up" them here so that they can meet the income requirements of the Thai Immigration Service. In the Netherlands, these people will apply for: housing benefit, additional assistance, etc. with a smaller amount the problem of forced return can be avoided. If, for humanitarian reasons, women and children could come with them to the Netherlands, this would of course be much more beneficial for the Dutch government.

  9. off the with says up
    18 November 2016 at 14: 35

    It is still sad that someone at bz without any knowledge of the situation to these new regulations
    decision. Many pensioners who left for Thailand about 15 years ago and were able to make ends meet,
    Due to the disastrous Dutch policy on the elderly, they can no longer meet the income requirements of the Thai
    emigration service. Because the embassy never stated that via the income statement
    the income data was correct but only asked to be helpful to the Thai emigration office
    when issuing a visa, it is incomprehensible to me why the life of the Dutch is less
    wealthy compatriots is made impossible by the Dutch government

    • erik says up
      19 November 2016 at 00: 37

      Well, with all due respect, I think this is a bit shortsighted.

      Actually, you should not issue a statement that is incorrect and if Thailand were to increase the requirements, people with (then) too low an income AND no possibility to leave money in the bank will move elsewhere. Then Cambodia comes into view, I already read.

      If Thailand becomes the 'Wassenaer of the East' many will have to go. But will Thailand then fix the poverty that remains? I hope we never have to learn that.

    • support says up
      19 November 2016 at 07: 26

      It's even sadder. Now they do check (if they succeed), but even then they continue to state that the embassy takes no responsibility for the content of the income statement.
      In good Dutch: weak bite! If you check income, you must also clearly indicate this.

      Thinking up a very strange arrangement in a back room, but threatening / taking responsibility? Whoa!!!

  10. support says up
    19 November 2016 at 09: 38

    After an initial somewhat emotional reaction to the somewhat strange decision in The Hague to change the Income Statement procedure, I took a legal look at it. After all, I am a lawyer by profession.
    First some facts in a row:
    1. Even after 1-1-2017, the Embassy will continue to explicitly state in the Income Statement that they will only legalize the signature of the applicant and
    2. bear no responsibility for the content of the document in question (Ic Income Statement)
    3. We assume that this document will be used by the applicant at Immigration for the extension of the annual visa.
    4. An annual income of TBH 800.000 (= E 20.500 p/y) is required for an extension of the annual visa. NB I use this amount in TBH and a rate of TBH 39/E1,-
    5. So the Embassy says not to legalize a signature if one cannot prove that one has an annual income of at least E 20.500.

    This means that a requested legalization of a signature will not be carried out for people whose annual income is less than E 20.500.

    That seems to me to be a form of discrimination and is therefore legally unsustainable/enforceable.

    Soon the (embassy) - if the above remains valid - will also be able to set a minimum income requirement when renewing a passport, for example (people with an annual income below E 20.500 are not eligible for a new passport.

    Conclusion: if this crazy plan is adhered to in The Hague, then there is something that can be done about it legally.

    • RonnyLatPhrao says up
      19 November 2016 at 10: 56

      The embassy does not check at all whether you have enough money to apply for an extension.
      No embassy is authorized to do this. They don't and they never will.
      Only immigration can decide whether or not an amount is sufficient.

      What they are apparently going to check now is whether you can prove the AMOUNT that you declare in your income statement. That can be any amount, as long as you can prove it.
      Whether everyone should come to Bangkok for this is another matter. Indeed, it does not seem practical for many.

      The Belgian embassy has arranged that you can apply for this by post, if you are registered in the Belgian embassy. You are therefore known administratively.
      Anyone who is not registered must come to the embassy in person.
      Seems like a very acceptable arrangement to me.

      • eric kuijpers says up
        19 November 2016 at 13: 12

        Ronny, question in this context.

        If a Belgian comes to the Belgian embassy in Bangkok for an income statement with a Dutch annual pension statement, say from Philips Eindhoven or from DSM in Dutch Limburg (because there are many Belgians who have spent their working lives in the Netherlands and have retired there for saved), do they get an income statement on that piece of paper at the Belgian embassy?

        M curious.

        • RonnyLatPhrao says up
          19 November 2016 at 14: 03

          Dear Erik,

          The Belgian embassy also uses an affidavit, ie a declaration of honor.
          Only your signature will be legalized, not the content of the statement.
          Do they deliver an affidavit for Dutch people? Don't know.
          It is best to ask that question to the Belgian embassy.

          • RonnyLatPhrao says up
            19 November 2016 at 14: 14

            I think it doesn't matter where the income comes from either, because it only involves legalizing a signature.
            But such things the embassy can answer better.

            • ton says up
              19 November 2016 at 15: 32

              is in the explanation

            • eric kuijpers says up
              19 November 2016 at 16: 19

              Dear Ronny, I understand that the B embassy is not, or not yet, suffering from this cramped situation. Be careful, Belgian friends.

      • support says up
        20 November 2016 at 11: 11

        Ronnie,

        They may ask/check whether you can substantiate the stated amount. But if they (the embassy) check then they must also have the balls to stand behind their own control work. However? And so they should also omit the last sentence at the bottom and not say shit that they are not responsible for their own audit work.

        • RonnyLatPhrao says up
          20 November 2016 at 11: 41

          Yes I agree.
          I don't claim anywhere that I support that working method, or at least I am not defending that working method.
          It would also make everything much clearer.
          You provide the supporting documents and on the basis of this the embassy declares what your income is .
          If you cannot provide proof, then no statement from the embassy. Ready for everyone.

          • nico says up
            20 November 2016 at 12: 15

            Hey Ronnie,

            It is not that simple, you have income on which no income tax has to be paid.

            Such as income from shares and room/house rental, which are exempt from tax.
            And income that has already been taxed abroad. There is also a 3 in box 0
            Amounts are known, but not taxed and therefore not visible on the tax assessment.

            How do you make this plausible at the embassy???

            Someone who knows can tell.

            Greetings Nico from Lak-Si

            • RonnyLatPhrao says up
              20 November 2016 at 13: 08

              Nico,

              I just want to say that it would be simpler if one were now just to limit themselves to what the applicant wants to prove as income.
              Whether that is taxed and where is not important, as long as you provide proof of that income.

              Immigration asks to prove maximum 12 x 65000 Baht per month (retired)
              Nowhere does immigration ask for all your taxable income, nor whether or not you pay taxes or where you pay them.
              Of course, you can always prove more than 12 x 65 Baht, but that won't get you anywhere. Everything that is proven as income above 000 x 12 Baht has no importance for immigration.
              Less is also possible, of course, but then it may have to be supplemented with a bank account in the case of “Retired”. But that is a matter between the applicant and immigration.
              Nowhere does immigration ask you to prove your entire income.

              I myself request an extract of my pension from the pensions service in Belgium in order to meet immigration requirements.
              It states the annual amount of my pension and how much I receive each month.
              That is sufficient to meet immigration requirements.
              The rest of my taxable income, or how high my total income is, is of no concern to anyone. Immigration does not require that at all.
              They only want to see that you have an income of at least 12 x 65 000 Baht. (retired) or 12 x 40 000 Baht (married)
              If that is less than 65 Baht, you will have to provide additional financial proof (bank) as “retired. But that is something between applicant and immigration.

              An embassy should therefore limit itself to the amount that the applicant is willing and able to prove. Nothing more, nothing less. They have no business with the rest.
              If the applicant only wants to prove 500 Euro as income, and he can prove that, that should be possible without any problem. The rest of the amount is something between the applicant and immigration.

              They make it all much more complicated than it should be.

    • if says up
      19 November 2016 at 11: 37

      A combination of income and money in the account is also possible,

      • RonnyLatPhrao says up
        19 November 2016 at 13: 59

        Indeed, Josh

        That is why it only concerns the amount that you enter on that income statement.
        Whether or not this amount is sufficient to obtain an extension is irrelevant.
        Immigration will decide that.
        Someone can then possibly supplement that amount of income with a bank amount up to the amount of 800 Baht.
        Note – Combination is not possible when you request an extension based on “Thai Marriage”.
        There the minimum is 40 000 Baht income per month OR 400 000 Baht in a bank account

    • somewhere in Thailand says up
      19 November 2016 at 14: 33

      I read and see (Change in the procedure for signature legalization of income statement (1+2)) that it is only written about 800000 baht, but if you are married you must have 400000 baht, so €10800, say with today's rate??
      Get a wedding visa people if you are at least married here and I think many are married I estimate 50% – 50%
      But it is for the stupid this decision for many Dutch people if this continues.

      Good luck everyone

      Mzzl
      Pekasu

  11. RobN says up
    19 November 2016 at 11: 06

    Hi Ronnie,

    if what you say is true, how is it possible that from 2007 to 2009 I was able to obtain (pay for) a statement with the subject: Declaration of Income for the purpose of extending a visa. On official Embassy letterhead signed by Head of Consular Affairs,

    • steven says up
      19 November 2016 at 11: 34

      Extension of your stay is the purpose of that statement, hence its name. That does not mean that the embassy also checks whether you meet the requirements. That is, as Ronny also writes, to the Thai immigration service.

      To date, the embassy has accepted every statement, now there is a plan that the embassy will check whether the statement is correct, that is the difference.

      • ton says up
        19 November 2016 at 15: 36

        Indeed, just as I wrote to the embassy on my recently applied for residence certificate: for the purpose of extending a Thai driving licence. The driver's license is also not issued by the embassy.

    • RonnyLatPhrao says up
      19 November 2016 at 11: 50

      I suspect because it was 2007/2009 and it was called “Declaration of Income for the purpose of extending a visa”. I do not know.
      The embassy then stated that you had a certain income.
      They probably had a standard form specifically for that purpose.
      They will have checked that.
      However, they will never declare that you have sufficient income to obtain an extension.
      It is only up to immigration to decide whether that is enough or not. .

      Now it is an income statement legalizing your signature.
      The embassy says nothing more.
      Now someone (the applicant) declares on his honor what his income is. It doesn't have to be 800 Baht.
      Officially, that person must declare that he has at least 12 x 65000 Baht income.
      He may also have less. Later, if it is insufficient to obtain the extension, an adjustment will have to be made with a bank account

      • RobN says up
        19 November 2016 at 13: 58

        Sorry Ronny but unfortunately I disagree with you. “Declaration of Income for the purpose of extending a visa” is clear enough for me.
        After all, the translation reads: Declaration of Income for the purpose of extending a visa. The fact that the Embassy no longer wants to do this does not detract from the fact that the Embassy used to do it. It was not a standard form, but a neatly printed epistle (probably a Word document) in which all relevant information was stated.

        • ton says up
          19 November 2016 at 15: 41

          and it always said: “This income is taxable in Holland” even if it wasn't.

        • RonnyLatPhrao says up
          19 November 2016 at 16: 20

          The title then simply said WHY the document was issued.
          It stated what your income was, but says nothing at all about whether or not this is sufficient to obtain an extension.
          Not possible because an embassy has nothing to say about that.
          That is only immigration that decides this.

          The content is actually still the same as today.
          In summary – Person…. has a monthly or annual income of…. Euro.
          However, it will then be completed and signed by an authorized person at the embassy instead of the applicant.

          Today it must be completed and signed by the applicant himself.
          Subsequently, the signature is legalized, but what is declared is still exactly the same.
          Maybe they should have done you a favor and changed the title to.
          “Income statement for the purpose of requesting an extension”.
          Visa was also wrong in the old document. You cannot extend a visa, only the period of stay obtained with a visa.

          The fact that this document no longer exists 7 years ago and it was replaced by the current one must also have its reason.
          Perhaps they were wrong and were not allowed to make such statements themselves, so they had to remove it and replace it with an Affidavit. Who knows ?

          By the way, just because something is neatly expressed doesn't mean it isn't a standard form.
          Have you ever heard of a template?

          You don't have to agree at all, but I'll leave it at that.
          After all, these are old cows. That won't help you in 2016-2017.
          In the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc there were probably other documents that were not allowed to be used later..
          Neatly typed out, but also with standard texts.

  12. Theo Volkerrijk says up
    19 November 2016 at 11: 26

    Which official of Foreign Affairs in the Netherlands came up with this
    Please state the official's name
    It must be another young lad who came up with this and wants to prove himself to the boss
    He is extremely stupid and has never thought about the problems this arrangement will cause for the people who live here in Thailand
    So the Foreign Affairs in the Netherlands must explain to the Dutch people who live here in Thailand exactly who came up with this and why and what are the advantages for the people here but disadvantages.
    I only have disadvantages because of this
    I'm waiting
    Sincerely
    According to

    • ton says up
      19 November 2016 at 17: 10

      Just had the income statement signed at the embassy a week ago.
      The form that will be used next year for this statement (see change procedure for signature legalization of income statement 1) is identical to the form that is already in use to request the statement in writing. It is not only a declaration of your own income, but also a declaration of residence. It also states that the embassy takes no responsibility for the content of the document. (Fees: 1020 Th Bht)
      Perhaps being present in person has to do with the recently introduced “on-line” appointment system. I was one of the first to experience that. That appointment system was also introduced centrally from The Hague for all Dutch Embassies (the irony was that it was not possible for Bangkok to make an appointment to do three different things at the same time. This will be corrected)
      At the counter I asked if I had to enclose the annual statements and the answer was: no, you don't have to, the form alone is sufficient. That will be different from next year.

  13. Pieter says up
    20 November 2016 at 06: 38

    Dear Mr Haenen,

    I am happy to be patient while you and your colleagues try to clarify this matter.

    I have three aspects that I would like you to address in your explanation:
    1. meeting the income requirement of the Thai immigration service seems to me to be a matter between the Thai government (immigration service) and the applicant for the 'visa extension. I do not understand why the Dutch government and its delegation should interfere in this. All the more since you only legalize the signature and do not guarantee the correctness of the statement.
    – is this change of procedure a result of a request from the Thai government? If so, why does it seem that only the Dutch embassy wants to introduce this new rule hastily?
    – why does the Dutch government (embassy) pose as an unpaid supervisory body of the Thai government?
    – how is it possible that you prioritize this while you have to cut back further on services to the Dutch?

    2. Can you explain how (very elderly) Dutch people who are bedridden or housebound due to their health can implement your new rules. Do you now require that they be transported by ambulance to the consular section or do you visit these people at home? If so, it seems to me that you need to expand your workforce.

    3. Why is this measure being introduced hastily? After all, there is no time to follow the 800,000 Baht in bank account procedure before the new measure takes effect, as this money must be there for at least 3 months.

    I wish you and your colleagues success in implementing the proposed measure and eagerly await your response.

  14. Cees 1 says up
    20 November 2016 at 07: 43

    Is it possible that via Thailand blog some kind of email action will start with the embassy to indicate that this has very hard consequences for many people! Luckily I don't have this problem.
    But we will still have to show solidarity with the people who cannot travel or indeed because of the weak euro. Being kicked out of the country. And then ending up on the street in the Netherlands

    • Jacob says up
      20 November 2016 at 08: 22

      Maybe we should all go back and appeal to the social system in the Netherlands. I think they sound different in The Hague, and I don't just mean the retirees in Thailand, but worldwide.

  15. Bert Schimmel says up
    20 November 2016 at 07: 51

    Cambodia should conclude a treaty with the Netherlands within the framework of the WEU and maintain the simple rules for long stay. Take your passport once to a travel agency for a retirement visa (recently introduced) a $1-$280 and you're done. I enjoy living in Cambodia and I am willing to take the 290% discount on my state pension for it.

    • ton says up
      20 November 2016 at 09: 32

      That would be nice, but it was not until 2014 that Cambodia concluded its first Double Taxation Agreement. The Netherlands does not yet have a DTA with Cambodia and experience shows that a social treaty is only concluded if a tax treaty already exists with that country. So wait until the proverbial St. Juttemis.

  16. Theo Molee says up
    20 November 2016 at 10: 28

    Dear people,
    What a panic all about the so-called measures / interference of the Ned. government with the oldies living in Thailand. Don't be scared though. The intelligence behind this announcement is in any case hard to find and a certificate of insolvency from our government, which hopefully now also applies to Ned. representative, in this case his Excellency the Ambassador will penetrate, given the many panic reactions on ThaiBlog. As noted earlier, there is actually nothing new under the Thai sun. 800.000 baht income (combination of pension and bank account) is required for the extension of the residence document.
    The only "new" is that one must appear at the embassy in person to have the data assessed for accuracy. An amount and signature. The rest is up to Thai immigration.
    This was probably a request from the Thai Immigration to BZ, because they have the pension data, sometimes
    from 3-6 unable to read, let alone check.
    Keep in touch. Thai Theo

    • support says up
      20 November 2016 at 11: 33

      Theo,

      I bet that people at the embassy can't check/read that pension information either.
      And if it comes from the Thai authorities, why don't we hear similar messages from our Belgian friends?
      In addition, in new system, no responsibility is still taken for the declared amount thus checked. So what's the use of the Thai government? After all, they still cannot check whether the embassy has actually checked.

    • Cees1 says up
      20 November 2016 at 13: 20

      Again the point is that it is a problem for many older people to travel.
      And that's why we have to try to convince the embassy to reverse this rule.


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