The bank ABN AMRO may unilaterally terminate the banking relationship with its customers outside the European Union, according to two rulings by the Disputes Committee of Kifid. Two separate consumers, residing in Thailand and New Zealand respectively, complained to Kifid that the bank no longer wanted to continue their relationship with them.
Both consumers have been customers of the bank for decades and have used its services satisfactorily. Due to emigration, these consumers now live outside the European Union. They used their Dutch current account, with the corresponding debit card and PIN code, for, among other things, depositing pension income and AOW benefits and for payments in the Netherlands. Individually, consumers want to be able to continue their current account with the bank.
The bank has indicated that, due to current legislation and regulations, it can no longer offer certain banking services outside the European Union without a required license. Serving customers outside the European Union entails increasing risks and extra costs for the bank. As a result, the bank has decided to terminate its services to all customers outside the European Union. She makes no exceptions.
Plenty of time for an alternative
The point of departure for the Disputes Committee is that the bank must comply with the applicable laws and regulations, including those of the country where the client lives. The bank cannot be expected to incur disproportionate costs or to take risks in order to continue a payment account for a consumer outside the European Union. In addition, the Disputes Committee notes that consumers have had ample opportunity to look for an alternative after six months. The bank is not obliged to offer a basic payment account to consumers who live outside the European Union. A bank that offers banking services to consumers in the Netherlands is legally obliged only to provide a basic current account to consumers living within the European Union.
Although the Disputes Committee understands that terminating the banking relationship is not desirable for consumers, it can only conclude that the bank was allowed to terminate the current account for the reasons stated.
@,
I think this is going to cause a snowball effect.
ABN-AMRO does not find the excessive costs acceptable.
No, they earn a little less.
If the other banks do this too, then the clients will be at the mercy of the gods.
Of course, by then someone will stand up who will offer banking services and this for a very generous price.
People are simply thrown to the wolves and this by their own country.
Shame the way the Netherlands have treated people.
But I don't think there is anyone who needs an aspirin in the turret, because of thinking 24/7 about what to do now.
LOUISE
Just read:
The Disputes Committee referred to the Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing (Prevention) Act (Wwft), which states that banks must have a separate banking license in each country for activities outside the EU. With a Dutch license, services can only be offered in EU countries.
So it has NOTHING at all to do with what ABN AMRO thinks of it, nor how the Netherlands treats the Dutch, who have clearly indicated that they want to see their future elsewhere (e.g. Thailand), but everything with the LAW, ratified by the majority in the 2nd and 1st Chamber .
And as a Dutchman living in the Netherlands, I am very happy that the NLe banks will not incur any costs to block possible money laundering practices from Farawayistan such as Thailand. There are plenty of Thai banks in Thailand, so at the mercy of the gods… it was your own choice to move your life there.
That will cost something such a banking license outside the EU, you can't do that to a bank like that. Will they go bankrupt? And what about those poor shareholders. As if every Dutchman in Thailand is a money launderer and finances terrorism. It shouldn't get crazier. It has everything to do with what the top of ABN Bank thinks of it. Only making profits, that's what the banks are all about and if they don't earn enough, stop trading. Yes, this is how you are treated as a Dutch citizen in Thailand by the ABN Bank. Scandalous. We also have to contend with today's political leaders. A wet pot. But yes, people keep choosing them and are hard learners. Your comments about Dutch people who are obliged to unsubscribe and have not asked for it are also below every arrow. Many choices are made by others and if you complain about that you get these kinds of comments. That says enough.
Another nice short answer. You will have to continue to pay taxes in the Netherlands, but you will no longer be allowed to have a bank account. Fortunately, there are still Dutch banks that deal with this differently.
No essential difference with a Dutch person on vacation in Thailand, who withdraws money via ATM. Internet banking, therefore no actions from the bank are required. There is close contact between Thailand and the Netherlands in the financial field, so the certificate de vita by the Thai social service to be legalized. Money laundering not possible, tax authorities automatically withhold tax. It is not your own choice that the bank terminates its services: there is no question at present at immigration that this would happen. Before commenting, inform yourself. your frog country.
Why then is the ABN or Asocial Bank Nederland the only bank that does this. And as has been said before, what better way to check money laundering than through a bank. Any transaction above a certain amount must be reported anyway. And if you are so happy that you live in the Netherlands, what are you interfering with. And there is no law at all that says that you cannot have a bank account if you live outside Europe. When I left for Thailand in 1999
wrote the IRS. You can continue to use your Dutch bank. And the interest you receive will not be taxed by us. Because they are happy with the money that stays in the Netherlands !!!
Yes, I feel even more at the mercy of the gods now.
All the more reason not to emigrate in any case.
A foreign account cannot compete with a Dutch IBAN, of course.
The wolf is already working on his return, so that throwing becomes a serious problem.
Luckily I do have aspirin at home
I had the same problems with ABN AMRO, which indicated that after a relationship of almost 25 years, they "wanted to get rid of me as a customer", because I had emigrated 5 years ago and lived in Thailand. Never any problems with ABN AMRO during that period. With repeated protests I reported to the bank but received zero on appeal. The employees could not help but speak to me, incidentally friendly, and report that it had been discussed and approved by the top of the bank. NO discussion possible, I have now switched banks, so a Thai one. I informed the authorities that transfer money to me every month, after which they arranged it properly. AND I now have my money sooner than when I banked with ABN AMRO.
They won't support each other, you bastards. . Louise is absolutely right. I just don't understand the higher costs. The money just comes into your account just like you live in the Netherlands. And they earn from it precisely because of the transfer costs that they do not have to another Dutch bank. But the danger is indeed there
that the other banks will also do this. And then it will cost us money. They can just do this because we can't do much from here anyway. Maybe call in the ombudsman.
you don't read well either. This is about legislation.
That's right, but it clearly states that serving customers outside the EU entails additional costs. It is also not clear to me why those costs are higher. Consumnet still uses ATM or credit card, which is profitable for the bank. Post is sent via email and in other cases this may be charged.
Very simple.
They must have a separate special permit to do business outside the EU.
That will be expensive I suspect.
What kind of business outside the EU ???? The money is simply deposited into the bank in the Netherlands. And then withdrawn via a transfer or ATM card. That means that according to you, no one will be able to go on holiday outside Europe anymore. Because they are no longer allowed to withdraw money.
Is this an answer to Cees1 ? Because what better way to check money laundering or other illegal money flows than through a regular bank?
Why are there still people who continue to defend the world's biggest criminals (bankers). And certainly the ABN is an example of a company that has no morals.
Just the way they did this. Every month they wrote to a number of people. So that not too many people would protest at the same time.
And what if you still have debts to that bank? Were they canceled unilaterally?
But ABNAMRO has no problem making payments abroad from your account because they make a lot of money from that. Direct payment previously 5.50 and now 9.50 euros. Urgent payment previously 27.50 and now 37.50 euros and sulked increases Vincent are they normal?
well,
It's not just the ABN, staying the 7 winter months in Thailand and then the 5 “summer” months in the Netherlands, so I have a Thai phone and a Dutch phone. The ING asked me where I lived because I had a Thai phone. I replied to Hanololo.
Think they are still looking for where that is because I haven't heard anything in months.
Dog back
We also have an account with ING, and they know that we live in Thailand.
Mail arrives, credit card is registered. Life insurance is running.
No problem for now
Dear readers,
If you pay taxes in the Netherlands, you can financially support the scoundrels who call themselves ABNérs with your tax money. They don't support you!!! (actually everyone with Dutch nationality is a shareholder)
All major banks and insurers are working to keep everyone who earns pension, benefit or otherwise assets in the Netherlands within the national borders. If your income / assets are high enough that you can keep two or more addresses, you will have no problems. Especially if you fly back and forth at regular intervals.
Be wise register with the Chamber of Commerce as a self-employed person. A garage box with zip code is sufficient.
By the way, I believe that you have emigrated if you have adopted another nationality.
Tomorrow we celebrate liberation. so everyone join.
Regards Anthony
Ket Kifid has ruled that De Bank has the right to do so. The judgment is not that De Bank should not do this, but they do not have to.
De Bank's argument is not very convincing. The risks are not specified. In the last resort, the question is whether a Dutch citizen, who has no criminal record and no risk profile to prevent this, has the right to have a bank account in the Netherlands to arrange his or her Dutch banking affairs. If that right is recognised, it could be enforced that there must be a possibility at any institution to open such an account. A lawsuit would then have to be held, probably against the Dutch state. As long as ING or any other bank offers these services, this is not yet an issue.
These are Dutch citizens who often pay taxes in the Netherlands and from whose tax money the banks have to be saved if things go wrong. It is then very bitter that the same taxpayer is not allowed to have an account with that bank. ABN AMRO, as a bank that has been bailed out by the taxpayer and is still mainly owned by the Dutch state, should be a little more humble.
and more serviceable.
The moment it can be demonstrated that some non-residents can run such an account and others cannot, there is legal inequality.
It should be clear that if a non-resident like Ms. de Carvalho of Heineken reports to De Bank with the statement that she would like to open a deposit to save some billions, she will be welcomed with open arms. There should be legislation protecting the rights of a non-resident. Apparently it is missing.
The risks mentioned as money laundering, tax evasion and terrorism are not very credible. Nor do I believe that the Thai government can prohibit ABN AMRO from opening an account for a Dutch citizen to conduct his Dutch banking affairs. The license referred to is probably about opening an account by a Thai national in the Netherlands. They are less difficult about that in Switzerland, but that aside. What remains is the cost and inconvenience. However, the Bank could also consider simply charging the customer for these costs. So they just don't feel like the hassle it entails. It is not about services, but about profit at De Bank.
It would be nice if ING would make it known that they continue to support this service, because otherwise you are indeed at the mercy of the gods and as a non-resident you have become a kind of pariah. As long as you are seen as a potential taxpayer, this is very painful.
If you pay tax in the Netherlands (and then I am not talking about the amount withheld from the state pension), you also have an address in the Netherlands and you avoid this problem. This only concerns persons who have deregistered from the basic administration at the municipality and who have obtained exemption from the tax authorities. In that case, you no longer have an address in the Netherlands or elsewhere in the EU and the aforementioned legislation applies. Whether one applies it (the bank) is up to that bank.
Someone spoke about registering as a self-employed person, but then you are a resident and you pay tax in the Netherlands.
Dear Bob, I am a retired civil servant and pay tax in the Netherlands on my pension and state pension, but I had to deregister if I stayed outside the EU for more than 8 months. That is imposed, I did not ask for it. A lot of hassle with health insurance, arranging other matters and so on. I thought my old age had been granted but I've known more hassle since then than before. I am still a Dutch citizen and have a Dutch passport, but I am treated as a second-class citizen by these types of organizations.
“…..expects her to incur disproportionate costs…..”
What disproportionate costs would this be?
Perhaps the “Dispute Committee” and the “Bank” can explain that a little more specifically than shroud themselves in mystery.
And further,
If only pension money comes in, what risks would the “Bank” run????
With thanks to the board of this Disputes Committee.
Thank you Mr. RJJM Pans, Mrs. Dr. PWJ van Esterik-Plasmeijer and Mr. W. de Lange.
That the bank would run more risk outside the EU is not a very convincing argument. Is ABN Amro more at risk in a civilized country like New Zealand than in thoroughly corrupt EU countries such as Romania and Bulgaria? So not really believable.
They have slightly more costs outside the EU, which the banks could simply charge, but they choose to throw loyal customers (who have been customers for many decades) with the bulky waste. I cannot understand such a shocking mentality.
There are 2 reasons why I should have a Dutch bank account.
First of all, I have health insurance in the Netherlands and the premium is automatically debited from my account. At a Thai bank this is almost if not completely impossible.
Furthermore, as a foreigner without a work permit, I cannot get a credit card in Thailand.
So it was a big problem for me when ABN AMRO summoned me to stop.
Fortunately, I was able to open an account with ING, which has a special department for Dutch people living outside the EU.
Dear Peter .
I also do not have a work permit and have been living here on retirement for many years.
I too am a victim of this great ABNAMRO bank after being a customer for more than 50 years.
But my ABN credit card was also canceled via the ICS amro subsidiary.
But I got a new one from the Thai bank or Ayuthaya or Krungsri in Thai, they were difficult at the TMB.
I have been a customer of this private Krungsri bank for more than 15 years, a subsidiary of the Japanese bank of Mitsubishi
I opened a new second payment account there and I can withdraw up to 80 percent of the amount on it with the Visa credit card.
And the credit card is also free , with the ABN card you had to pay an annual contribution .
So it is possible, the approval after the application took less than two weeks.
At the TMB they only found out after 6 weeks that it was not possible for them , you do not have salary .
Afterwards I said goodbye to the TMB, and they were not happy about it, good customer.
in the Netherlands I have been banking with the Regiobank for a long time now.
And a large part of the balance that I had with the ABN is now there, as long as it lasts I hope.
Jan Beute.
Yes, we can go! They earn nothing or very little from us anymore. But is that really so. I pay about 42 euros per year. only for a current account that I use maybe about 5 times a year for a transfer within the Netherlands. I also have a credit card that I don't use (purchased only for emergency!)
I pay payroll tax in the Netherlands because the Netherlands and Laos do not have an agreement. YOU GET NOTHING IN BACK! Can't even deduct medical expenses from my gross income. According to the Tax Authorities Abroad, I would be allowed to do that if I had lived in Thailand, but this is besides the point.
At the moment you can still open an account with ING (although you have to report in person to a branch.
It is very important to me that not all my money is in the bank in Laos. I would like to have such a spread. In Laos it is not possible to have a euro account. So then exchange rate differences also play a role.
My experience with ABNAMRO has been very bad lately!! At first I had an account manager at a regional office. Then it suddenly became an account manager at Schiphol ( Int. Clients ) Then he disappeared again and you now appear to fall under a group.
All in all, you should ask yourself if you still want to remain a customer of theirs ????? !!!!
Yes, I too have been sidelined after 50 years of ABN. Helping hand forget it. I had to wait 2 months for a new card. I am obliged to go to the Netherlands to find a new bank. Found one the Ing bank. But I must be physically present. To sign. In other words, it will cost me a lot of money to do that. Thank you ABN Amro.
Dear Jansavan
Trust me I'm glad I'm gone.
Already had a problem years ago with expiring a single premium policy and converting it to an annuity.
There, too, they started complaining that I lived abroad.
We succeeded with the help of others, the ABN bank does nothing for you.
And I also had a preferred banker account manager, never heard from again.
Fortunately, there are several banks in the world other than just the Netherlands, including Thailand, but Singapore could also be an option, so go shopping there.
Jan Beute.
Well, Bram, there are a few other customer groups that, according to you, the bank "only incurs costs..." and "...is only used as a service intermediary..."
How about those hundreds of thousands of Dutch people in a rental home, without debts, loans or investments? Who just have a job, do the shopping and go on vacation once a year?
Or all homeowners without a mortgage with a nice savings in the bank?
For a while these are groups of a very different size than that small cub of pensioners who live abroad.
Is the Bank going to throw them all out because they don't make a profit?
What do you think Brad???
Joop this is sheer nonsense what you are writing now. The bank is legally obliged to accept as customers persons established within the EU countries. If I move tomorrow to Nicaragua or another country in Central America or to Iraq or Iran or to any country in the world, for example, I will have to look for another bank there. Thailand is certainly no exception. Strange that many people cherish the lusts of a country, but get very angry with the mother country if something is a little bit displeasing to them. Think big when you move to another country.
nice weather as the Dutch banks (is not a typo) react and act.
Turn it around and look at the Thai banks how they treat foreigners.
Normally no problem at all, you live in the Netherlands?, that makes no difference to the Thai banks.
But yes, what has already been mentioned above .... you would once develop alleged black money, or even worse terrorist practices, we should not want that, the Dutch government wants to be able to maintain 100% control over you.
Does anyone know whether an “and/or account” with someone who lives in the Netherlands is possible? I will try this in the summer to convert my account to such an account with my daughter living in the Netherlands with of course two debit cards and two access calculators.
My suspicion is that a and/or account with a non-resident will not be accepted. I would also like to point out (in response to bob's posting) that a non-resident can, for example, have a house in the Netherlands that he rents out and must pay property tax on it and bills for water, gas and electricity, property tax, etc. .must comply. The utilities really don't collect from a Thai bank account.
I myself have the situation that I receive an annuity from ABN AMRO on a mandatory linked ABN AMRO account. How they are going to do that when I am no longer a resident next year they could not tell me.
The Netherlands has concluded treaties with Thailand to check any bank (account holders). With a Dutch passport you are and remain a Dutch citizen. Nice friendship between the two countries. The immigration service may also forward your financial details to the known addresses to check whether everything is pure coffee. I wonder what a court will think of it. After all, you are a good customer, reliable, no criminal activities or put the bank in bad esteem. I find the ruling and explanation of the dispute committee very weak. I'm also curious if someone has drawn up a notarial deed to authorize someone else, whether a bank can simply ignore that.
Are you curious what a court thinks of this? Well, that seems crystal clear to me: the bank has no obligation to offer a bank account to people located outside the EU.
What do you mean, no credit card on a Thai account if you don't have a work permit? I know of at least one Thai bank that makes credit cards available without that requirement. An amount in baht equal to the spending limit is then placed in a “pledge account” and the bank runs no risk.
Yes, I can confirm that, I also had a credit card with the SCB without a work permit, under the same conditions as described by Ton.
It is possible.
That is not a credit card but a debit card. With a credit card you can be overdrawn up to a certain amount.
Exactly, Tina. See eg http://www.mastercard-debitcard.nl/vragen-oplossingen/vraag-antwoord-over-debitcards/
It's just how you look at it. For me there is no need to be demeaned in any way. It is necessary for me to have a CREDIT CARD in addition to all bank cards (Debit Cards) for example to be able to buy things on the internet such as airline tickets. You can't do that with a debit card (at least the one from the two banks I have in Thailand).
In other words: Tino, you may see my credit card as a debit card, but for me it is important that the rest of the world sees it as a 100% Visa Credit Card just like all other Visa Credit cards.
If the ABNAMRO has no permits, can you assume that they have been breaking the law for a long time now?
Incidentally, it is not just about turning away customers, but about the way in which customers are turned away.
If you want to get rid of your customers, you should make the effort to put them somewhere, instead of just throwing them out on the street.
I made that comment to the man who was handling the transaction.
He thought it was a crazy idea, to help people, to open an account with a competitor.
The letter from ABNAMRO also stated that this did not apply to expats who were temporarily posted by a company.
Apparently it is possible and the permits must also be there, otherwise they break the law.
I'm glad we don't have an account with ABN Amro
We are Belgians, and have an account with a debit card in Belgium, an account in France with a visa card and 2 accounts with ING with 2 credit cards. Not that we're that rich, but it's just easy.
So far, no problems at any of the 3 banks. I think it would be very unlikely that all 3 banks would suddenly throw us out. Of course also bank accounts in Thailand, but no credit card.
Indeed, as a Belgian I have 2 Belgians. accounts with a foreign address without problems, namely Keytrade bank & AXA bank, at Keytrade you do not get a bank card if you are not a resident of Belgium, but you do not need it for your online banking with them, at AXA you do have a card because you do need it online, both have also mobile banking on smartphone,
With keytrade you can also get from your EU. transfer account to Thailand bank, but enter it online and the bank will then manually make the transfer to Th. day 3 usually on KK rack. arrival morning.
I do think that keytrade NL customer accepted
It should actually be this way, Dutch people pay taxes in the Netherlands in addition to their state pension taxes. They must then have the right to use a Dutch bank. Have you deregistered in the Netherlands so that you are no longer obliged to pay taxes here? Well, you can't have everything, I would say just take a bank in the country you have chosen or it will yield you so much.
It does not automatically follow from 'deregistration' that you no longer have a tax liability in NL – so your – somewhat vaguely formulated – reasoning does not apply.
Are there actually people whose account has already been blocked by ABNAMRO?
I should have canceled the account at the end of December 2017, but today everything is still working and I have not yet received a message from the bank.
Whether everything will still work tomorrow, of course, remains to be seen.