Power surge when opening shower faucet
Dear readers,
Yesterday afternoon I was unpleasantly surprised by a power surge when I wanted to open the tap of the shower. However, I thought I was probably electrically charged, because I had just walked through the grass and garden with my plastic slippers.
In the evening, however, I heard a scream from my wife, who also got an electric shock… so that was not good. At first I thought of the water heater. I checked everything with the help of a measuring device, but I did not find a leak anywhere.
I went to get a new one and before I mounted it I checked again whether there was power somewhere that shouldn't be there. And yes. The bathroom tap and the outside tap gave off power. I don't know how many, but the device indicated 12v each time. I then turned off the fuses of the power group where the heater was connected, but the 12v still showed on the device. Only when I pulled the main switch was there no more power message.
Now, when checking, it appears that most connections have three cables: a white, a blue and a green. I checked on the internet: the blue one is L (Load), because it has power on it, the white one is N, there's nothing on it and the green one must be the earth, but it also has power on it. The meter also indicates 12v there. However, if that is earth, then there should be no current on it, I think so.
The strange thing is that we haven't done anything to the house in the past three years, no new appliances connected and the like.
Now I'm a little afraid that I made the wrong decision. The old heater is about 3,500 watts. The new one, however, is 8000 watts. That's way too much for our house. So I don't want to connect it.
I have now removed the green cable from the device and securely capped it. The device works. There is a built-in voltage breaker (as is the case with most) and with experience it will immediately trip if a short circuit occurs. Then we're safe, I think so, aren't we?
I would prefer to connect the ground cable, but since there is power on it in one way or another, I don't think that's a good idea. Anyone a tip? Of course I can have an electrician come, but there are also a lot of bunglers among them.
I have also thought of getting a long green cable as soon as possible and connecting it the old-fashioned way to an iron rod that has been hammered into the ground…. The water pipe (made of plastic) is out of the question…
Should I just leave it as it is now? Or am I playing Russian roulette now? Last month, a young woman was already killed by a current stroke while taking a shower. I don't want to see that happen to me or worse, to my wife.
Regards,
Jack S
At the very least, it seems to me that the earth leakage protection in your house is not working.
If you get a shock and the ground fault does not trip, you really need to call an electrician.
Furthermore, the electricity of your heater probably does not run through the fuse box, but to the fuse (if present) of the bathroom.
The heater's ground fault won't help you if the current you feel isn't coming from the heater, but from somewhere else.
You should try whether the voltage does not enter the water pipe through the water.
The fact that two taps are under voltage means that the water itself is under voltage, because the PVC pipe does not carry electricity.
That doesn't even have to come from you.
But try it in the garden.
Do you have a pump, or a pond or something like that?
Then disconnect it from the mains and shut off the water and drain, if possible, you may know more.
Yes, I have connected a pond to the mains, but via a safety switch. When I flip the switch, the pond's power is completely cut off from the house.
When I did that there was still power on the green cable. I looked at another socket and the same thing: the green cable also had voltage. So here again: a blue, white and green cable. The green was connected to the earth leakage connection. I have removed this from it, because I think it is not good that there is also tension on it.
In the meantime, I have learned through many activities in the pump house (so that can be actively closed off from the rest of the house) how electricity flows and what you should pay attention to when you really want to shut off the power to a device. Line L must be interrupted, otherwise current will continue to flow to the device. Although a lamp goes out when N is interrupted, there is still a residual current that otherwise escapes. This was clearly visible with a number of LED lamps, which still glowed dimly when I had plugged the plug in the wrong way round.
Anyway, as I wrote, this is all OUTSIDE the house, on a power grid, which, although it comes directly from the house, can be completely shut off.
The fact that there was current on the pipes was, I think, because the earth wire somehow receives current. Somewhere in the net he has to touch an L point, right?
This earth wire was connected in the heater to the connection provided for this purpose. Since it is no longer there, no current can be measured on the taps (both of which were in direct contact with the heater via the water pipe).
There should simply be no current on the ground wire. And that's a mystery to me, because I haven't changed anything in the last two years.
My problem now is that I can't ground the heater with this wire until I can find the point where it comes into contact with power. When I can solve that, the heater can simply be connected to the earth wire again. Or could it be that the ground wire somehow picks up current at the point where it should be diverting current in the event of a problem?
Could it be that an animal (a mouse or rat) has eaten the cables, exposing two wires that are touching each other? We have all the pipes running under the roof and animals keep coming in there. We've already caught dozens of mice there and I can't find where they can get in (that is, I can't go up the "attic" to close that hole) so we continue to suffer from that.
The ground wire is probably not in direct contact with the L, but through something else, such as a light bulb.
I suggest that you start by completely disconnecting everything that is not in the house.
So L, N and the ground wire and then see if the problem disappears.
Then you can narrow down where to look for the problem.
You'll probably need an electrician eventually anyway, because it looks like you don't have a ground.
Perhaps drought is to blame for this. (assuming it's not raining at your place either)
If the earth stake is too short and placed in the dry soil, it won't do much.
This may also be the real problem.
You could test that by pouring quite a bit of water over the grounding point. (with the power turned off and rubber boots on, just in case, otherwise we may never hear if the problem has been solved, which would be a shame.)
Pure water is not conductive for electricity. Dissolve a firm grip of salt, but look for proper grounding to start with and then check the pipes
Grts drsam
The water in the water pipe is apparently conductive, because the tap is under tension, and the PVC water pipe probably will not be guilty of that.
Jack,
the possibility of corroded cables is present. When renovating my kitchen and my wish to move the switch box placed in a cupboard there, the ceiling had to be opened, and yes, there was the main cable over a distance of 15 cm with eaten away rubber sheathing. It wouldn't have taken long for a great short circuit or fire, or death blow.
All colors of the rainbow have also been laid on cables in the house and literally tied together. Most 3-prong outlets are only connected with 2 wires, so you never know if one is grounded or not without opening them up, which I've done for the most part now.
Buy an extension box from HomePro with 3 pins and it has a 2-pin plug.
The earth leakage circuit breaker does work, but of course only on properly connected devices and sockets.
Sometimes when measuring with a multimeter I see that the 0(N) to 55 Volt is on! You can almost run your air conditioner on it.
This is Thailand and just find a real electrician, 99% are bums and yet I'm not negative about Thailand, just VERY careful, we can't change it all together, just warn each other. The craft schools (vocational schools) have kindergarten level and they only learn how to kill each other with knives and self-made pistols.
I had the same. Washing machine-oven-microwave and the bathroom.
Had a professional come and he checked all the pipes above and replaced everything with a new green cable and now I don't suffer from anything anymore (fortunately) it costs something but it's worth it,
success
I've had it recently and this turned out to be because connections or connections in cables have started to melt and therefore allow flow current to pass through and this can go from bad to worse and then you could get a good blow.
Find a good electrician
12V and still feel like a power surge?
But.. often the water pipe is used as "earth", assuming that the steel pipe outside is already in the groundwater. (and a plastic water pipe… does not conduct anything, so does not drain electricity in this kind of emergency). If not, the “ground” will not work and current will not be drained. incidentally - according to me - there CAN only be voltage (current) on that "earth" line, if there is a short circuit somewhere with the "life" wire. Hence the "earth leakage" switch in the Netherlands for decades, which turns off the circuit if more "front entrances" enter the building and leave via the Neutral.
Even my bathtub is connected via the metal drain ring to a separate grounding cable, the same goes for the shower and the entire water circuit.
Somewhere around 2005, the parents of my business relation tried to explain to their “electrician” the phenomenon of “earthing” and “earth leakage”. Unfortunately… understood and knew NOTHING about it at all. So just google it all. So they now have everything with TUV resp. KIWA material. (Grand Germanian Gruendlichkeit)
1 Advice ; get a professional, it may not be easy, but you live short and you die long remember that well!
I had this problem last year. Turned out the water reservoir in the heather was leaking. This caused the power surges at the tap for me. Installed a new heather and the problem was gone.
Then the phase (Line) is not connected properly and is reversed with the earth. Be careful….. water conducts.
I think Ruud's tip is a good one. Something similar happened to me too. Behind my house I have a well that overflows when it rains heavily. To prevent this, there is a submersible pump in the well. When I opened the water tap in the kitchen I also got an electric shock. Didn't get it and even worse, my metal counter top also gave a shock when touched. As it turned out, the submersible pump worked, but had a water leak in the electronic area. The entire supply of water in the well was under tension and I experienced that firsthand! After I removed the pump, the problem went away. An earth leakage circuit breaker apparently does not respond to such leakages.
Very curious about Jack's reaction.
Gr Peter.
Peter, good tip, I'll check that out. I also have a submersible pump in the well and I had previously had a problem with another pump in the same well. This pump is constantly connected to the power grid, to which the rest is also connected. I hadn't thought of that at all!
I also installed that pump when I didn't really understand how to avoid constant power on a device.
Water and electricity is not a combination that you should take risks with.
There is a ground wire on those devices for a reason.
Don't try to save money and risk the lives of anyone who uses that shower.
Be wise and get a good electrician!
You are looking for the problem in the heater, but it can also come from somewhere else.
All ground wires are in contact with each other.
so it is quite possible that, for example, there is a closure in the air conditioning to the earth wire, and this closure can also be felt in another place.
disconnect each device one by one and measure again and again.
measuring is knowing.
I used to beat earth for the district transformers of an energy company. There where the 10Kv is converted to 220V.
Then the star point of the 3-phase transformer was grounded.
Thick copper bare wires were driven deep into the ground by means of compressed air.
All these scattered wires were then coupled and a measurement was taken with a megger.
https://meetwinkel.nl/uploadedfiles/metenaardingsweerstandflukemeetwinkel.pdf
Because if there is a leakage current to ground somewhere, these electrons will go back through ground to where they came from.
However, when the earths are bad, the tensions on the earths will rise to undesirable levels.
If the earth is not supplied by the energy company, make yourself an earth.
Used to be placed on the (copper) water pipe.
However, this is no longer possible with water pipes made of plastic.
And have to make yourself an earth. The best is an earth down to the groundwater.
In the event of a leakage to earth, the earth leakage switch will respond when the set leakage current is reached. But if the leakage current is smaller and the earth connection is poor, then the voltage will rise here.
https://www.4nix.nl/aardlekschakelaarnbsp.html
There is only one solution and advice for this.
Have a professional come and don't tell me that there are no decent electricians in Thailand.
And to find them you go to construction companies that build houses in the higher price range. In almost all cases, they will also have professionals, including electricians.
A rodent can also be the cause. With me, while swimming, the pool lights suddenly turned on, while no one was near the switch. Of course low voltage, so no danger. The culprit was a mouse that had put its teeth in two wires at the same time and it therefore acted as a terminal block. It was his last crown meal. The box with the connections had to be sealed better and the problem was solved.
In my sister-in-law's house also problems, short circuit. Cause: cable gnawed through. They hardly use any pipe and mounting boxes are only behind flush-mounted toilets.
As for the shower: No electric heater in my house! I've read that an average of 25 people die every year in Thailand because of those things. I have a propane gas water heater. I brought them from NL, but they are now also for sale at DoHome. Pipe through the wall to the outside for the discharge of flue gas. It has a safety feature so that it automatically switches off in the event of CO or too little oxygen. The only problem is that due to the low water pressure when showering, no water is tapped elsewhere, because then the geyser switches off. In addition, it is a bit of a job to get the flame height so low that it does not spread and the water does not get too hot. Recommended!
I haven't had time to really look into the cause of the current on the earth cable until now. This will happen soon.
Only something went through my mind about what Paul wrote. That an average of 25 people die every year from those things. Of course 25 too many.
But also consider this: how many million inhabitants does Thailand have and how many households have such devices built into them?
If I don't use such a heater because of that number, then I wonder how I should react to the annual 400.000 deaths in traffic?
As you describe with your geyser, it seems to me that you live more dangerously than all those who have an electric heater. Not really recommended! 🙂
I had no problem with the heater…. it was the ground wire going TO the heater. He wasn't getting power from the heater, he was supplying it wrong.