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M-declaration form from the Tax Authorities: calculation of income to be retained?

By Submitted Message
Posted in Reader question
Tags: , , , ,
May 19, 2019

Dear readers,

Due to emigration to Thailand in 2018, I received an M-declaration form from the Tax Authorities in the Netherlands. At question 65 (of a total of 83 questions on 58 pages!) the income to be preserved must be entered (mandatory in case of emigration).

For question 65a, this is the value of the accrued pension entitlements at the time of emigration (if taxable in the Netherlands) or the total of the contributions withheld (if taxable in the country of residence). The explanatory notes to the M form do state what needs to be completed, but do not provide any indication as to how to obtain this information.

Even before emigrating to Thailand in 2018, I receive a pension from 2 pension funds (ABP and PFZW), but I cannot find this information in the overviews I received from these pension funds.

My question is: where can I find this information or how can I calculate this income to be retained?

Regards,

Gerard

Number of times read: 681

28 responses to “M-declaration form from the Tax Authorities: calculation of income to be preserved?”

  1. ruud says up
    19 May 2019 at 12: 16

    I just requested that information from the insurer.
    They know all about this, because emigration is more common.

  2. Rob says up
    19 May 2019 at 13: 05

    This information is provided by your pension fund. You have to request it from them. It may take a while. In my case I had to wait 4 weeks for it

  3. Peter says up
    19 May 2019 at 13: 08

    You have to call or email them and they will calculate that for you. I also moved permanently last year and had to request that as well.

  4. tom bang says up
    19 May 2019 at 13: 26

    I think you can call the tax phone for this, they are the ones who ask you and can therefore also tell you how to find out.

  5. Tarud says up
    19 May 2019 at 13: 54

    I have the same question. I have kept all ABP documents and cannot find what the accrued pension agreements are. So you probably have to request that information from the pension provider. The M form is indeed extremely detailed and complex.

  6. He says up
    19 May 2019 at 14: 00

    It must be requested from the pension funds.

  7. carpenter says up
    19 May 2019 at 14: 27

    I did fill in some information from the annual overviews for that question, but I also mentioned that tax will be paid in Thailand on the later pension in due course. I could also send my Thai tax information as an attachment. That was because I emigrated quite early in the year 2015 and was therefore already subject to Thai tax in that year !!!

  8. Kanchanaburi says up
    19 May 2019 at 15: 22

    Dear Timker,
    I would like to get in touch with you regarding some questions regarding applying for a tax number, Tin, in Thailand.
    Maybe you can give me some tips??
    I have also emigrated to Thailand for a while, hence.
    here's my email address: [email protected]

  9. Lammert de Haan says up
    19 May 2019 at 15: 39

    You will not find the necessary information in the overviews you received from the ABP or PFZW, such as your Uniform Pension Overview, Gerard.

    The necessary information is also often difficult to obtain from your pension fund. Pursuant to the judgment of the Supreme Court of 14 July 2017 (ECLI:NL:HR:2017:1324), this concerns entitlements and contributions under a pension scheme that was used after 15 July 2009 pursuant to Section 3:81 of the 2001 Income Tax Act. are not counted as wages and which are therefore tax-facilitated. Everything before that is therefore not included in the income to be consolidated.

    As far as your ABP pension is concerned, you should ask yourself whether this pension was accrued within a government position, now that I read that you also enjoy a pension from PFZW in addition to this pension. There are also private healthcare institutions affiliated with the ABP. Such a pension falls under Article 18 of the Double Taxation Treaty concluded between the Netherlands and Thailand and is taxed in Thailand on the basis of this Article.

    I now have around 20 Model-M returns and usually do not enter any income to be retained. In many cases, the Tax and Customs Administration does not inquire about this income. If she does do that for you, you still have plenty of time to request the necessary information from your pension administrators. But pay attention to the date of July 15, 2009!

    Incidentally, the question of the income to be preserved is not really exciting. If you do not perform a “prohibited act”, the assessment imposed on the basis of this income will be waived after 10 years. By such an act you should understand the commutation of your pension. However, you will not be able to do that because no pension provider will cooperate with this, as this is contrary to the Pensions Act.

    • Lammert de Haan says up
      19 May 2019 at 15: 46

      The income to be “consolidated” referred to in the second paragraph must of course be the income to be “conserved”.

    • Ger Korat says up
      19 May 2019 at 16: 12

      Dear Lammert, if you do not enter any income to be preserved, what will the Tax Authorities do with the tax return? I myself fall under the scheme of July 15, 2009 that you mentioned, namely all my pension was accrued before that date and I therefore did not enter anything. However, after submitting my M form, the Tax Authorities remain quite silent. By the way, I don't have a pension benefit yet, but I can start it at any time I want, even if I only have to wait 9 years for this, so I can choose when I want my pension to start.

      • Lammert de Haan says up
        19 May 2019 at 17: 01

        In one case, the Tax and Customs Administration sends a request to still file a tax return of the income to be preserved, and in another case it does not respond. Incidentally, I have the impression that the Tax and Customs Administration is a bit more fierce after the judgment of the Supreme Court.

        For you, the matter is very simple: you enter € 0 as income to be preserved.

        If you filed a tax return this year using the Model-M, you do not have to expect a (provisional) assessment before October/November. The Tax Authorities are still busy finalizing the electronic tax returns submitted before April 1 in order to meet its commitment to provide an answer before July 1.

        Make a proper calculation of the expected outcome from the outcome of your tax return and compare this with the (provisional) assessment to be received afterwards. I have not yet experienced an M form being processed correctly in one go by the Tax and Customs Administration/Office Abroad. Deviations with my calculations often amount to € 2.000 to € 5.000 or even more. However, this is just as often to the advantage as to the disadvantage of the taxpayer.

        • Ger Korat says up
          19 May 2019 at 19: 00

          Thank you very much for the response.

  10. Ger Korat says up
    19 May 2019 at 16: 00

    ABP is for civil servants, then the taxation falls to the Netherlands and you request your accrued assets from them.
    PFWZ is private, so the taxation falls to Thailand. For this you need the premiums paid by the employer and employee. However, which company stores this and/or the pension organization will not or will not be able to provide the premium paid by the employer, partly because the data is too old. Yes, what should you state on your M-Form if you do not receive any information from the pension provider or employer(s) regarding premiums paid.

    • Lammert de Haan says up
      19 May 2019 at 17: 15

      An ABP pension is not in all cases a pension obtained from a government position, Ger-Korat. If you worked for a government company, your ABP pension is taxed in Thailand (Article 18 of the Treaty). Consider, for example, the old municipal gas companies.

      We also have so-called hybrid pensions, where an initial government service is subsequently privatized. But many private institutions are also affiliated with the ABP. This applies in particular to private educational and healthcare institutions. For example, if you have worked for a public and a special primary/primary school, the ABP pension must be divided into a government and a private pension.

    • he says up
      19 May 2019 at 17: 22

      I have 6 pension funds, I received the information from all of them within three weeks of my application. so it's not that difficult.

      • Lammert de Haan says up
        19 May 2019 at 18: 41

        Did your 6 pension funds also take into account the judgment of the Supreme Court I mentioned earlier, Han?

        In other words, did they only pass on the contributions after July 15, 2009 to you? This is often where the biggest problem lies. If not, your protective assessment has been set at too high an amount.

        • He says up
          20 May 2019 at 01: 12

          When I look at the amounts, I think not, I am a nitwit in this area and have outsourced it. I've only worked as a conduit. Passed that on about a month ago and have had no comments back.

      • Ger Korat says up
        19 May 2019 at 19: 14

        Try looking at the text of what the Tax and Customs Administration asks. If, like me, you receive a company pension(s) and live in Thailand, a treaty country, then you do not have to state the accrued pension assets as stated by the pension fund (that would be quite simple) but the premiums paid, from yourself as an employee and of your employer(s). Now try to request it from a pension fund. Perhaps Lammert de Haan can explain how he requests the premiums because I notice that pension funds do not provide these or refer to employers who refer back to the pension funds. So I think what the Tax and Customs Administration is asking, stating the premiums paid for pensions, cannot be done.

        • Lammert de Haan says up
          19 May 2019 at 21: 49

          As I indicated in my response to Gerard's question, it is often difficult to obtain the correct information from a pension administrator. As far as living in Thailand is concerned, it does indeed concern the contributions made after July 15, 2009, which have led to the withholding of a lower payroll tax. This concerns both the employee's and the employer's part. See my response to Han's post.

  11. Albert says up
    19 May 2019 at 18: 13

    In my opinion, these are pensions and annuities that have not yet been paid out.
    If you already receive the pension benefits, the regulations have been complied with and there is no income to be retained.

    If you have income to be preserved, you can apply for discharge once the benefits have started.
    Or after 10 years.

    • Lammert de Haan says up
      20 May 2019 at 07: 47

      Dear Albert,

      This completely misses the mark. If you emigrate while you are already retired, you will indeed have to deal with a protective assessment. And as far as an annuity payment is concerned, it goes one step further than the Supreme Court's decision I mentioned earlier with regard to a pension payment. Including negative expenditures upon emigration in respect of an annuity claim in a protective assessment is permitted insofar as the relevant expenditures were incurred in the period from January 1, 1992 to January 1, 2001 or in the period after July 15, 2009.

      • Albert says up
        20 May 2019 at 14: 40

        You are right, it was already 11 years ago.

        It then concerned the revisionary interest levied on annuity + pension.

        “On the basis of the transitional law of the Income Tax Act 1964
        the provisions of the revisionary interest do not apply to pre-Brede-Revaluation annuities
        (Art. I, part O, Implementation Act Income Tax Act 2001 in conjunction with art. 75 Income Tax Act 1964).”

        • Lammert de Haan says up
          20 May 2019 at 16: 08

          That's right, Albert. No protective assessment with revisionary interest can be imposed for pre-Brede-Revaluation annuities. Redemption of this, which one is often forced to do when living abroad, is not a prohibited act.

  12. Paul says up
    20 May 2019 at 07: 47

    With regard to pension accrual, I have sent a scan of the overview of my three pension insurers from mijnpensioenoverzicht.nl. That has been accepted. So maybe it's an idea to do that.

    Incidentally, I thought the M form was a dragon of a form, not least because I found the tone of both the form and the explanatory notes extremely unfriendly, to put it mildly. In addition, I found the layout unclear and the print very vague. I also indicated this in an accompanying letter, but, as is apparently customary, received no reply.

    • Lammert de Haan says up
      20 May 2019 at 12: 34

      Unfortunately, the UPO does not contain the information required to declare the income to be retained. The income to be conserved on the basis of this overview and then determined by means of life expectancy will lead to an assessment that is much too high.

      If you are not in the trade, filing a tax return yourself using the M form is unwise. I have not yet experienced a subsequent (provisional) assessment being correctly determined in one go. Deviations of € 2.000 to € 5.000 or even more to the advantage or disadvantage of the taxpayer are more the rule than the exception. And if you cannot make a proper calculation of the expected outcome yourself, you will soon pay too much or too little tax. And if that is too much, it is important to submit a request for revision of the provisional assessment, stating the disputed amount. Then also submit a request for deferral of payment of the disputed amount.

  13. Gerard says up
    21 May 2019 at 09: 59

    Thanks for the responses to my question! The reactions of Lammert de Haan in particular contain useful information for me.

    I accrued my ABP pension through my employer, who was affiliated with the ABP as a B3 institution (public sector employer under private law). My ABP pension is therefore taxable in the country of residence (Thailand) according to the tax treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand and the Netherlands has no right to tax. As a result, situation 'P' applies: “premiums paid if the Netherlands has no right to levy taxes on the payment and the lump sum payment”. So at question 65a I have to enter the total of the premiums withheld from the employee after 15 July 2009 and the premiums paid by the employer as income to be preserved.

    I have meanwhile sent an email to ABP via the contact form on the ABP website with the request to send an overview of the premiums paid (after 15-Jul-2009). Received an almost immediate answer from the ABP:
    “I have forwarded your message to the Value Transfer Department. They will process your request. It takes four to six weeks before you receive your statement. After contacting the Tax and Customs Administration about this, we have made an agreement with them that you can request an extension of the term from the Tax and Customs Administration. In that case, you explicitly state that you have accrued your pension with ABP.”

    In short, the M declaration form asks for information that you do not have and therefore cannot fill in, but that you must request from the pension fund, after which it can take up to 6 weeks before you receive an answer. Why does the Tax and Customs Administration not immediately state this clearly at the beginning of the explanation instead of making it clear only when you think you have almost finished filling it in? In my opinion, it would be even better if the Tax and Customs Administration itself requests this information from the relevant pension fund!

    I have yet to contact the PFZW. I wonder how long it will take them to provide the information. This pension comes from my former wife via conversion. So I never paid a premium for this pension myself!

    • Lammert de Haan says up
      21 May 2019 at 12: 18

      I enjoyed doing it, Gerard and I'm glad it was of some use to you. That is also the strength of Thailand Blog: if you have a question, ask it in the Blog and there is always someone who can provide good information.

      I read from your response that you understood everything correctly.

      Have fun living in Thailand and if you still encounter problems with filing a tax return or with the settlement of this by the Tax Authorities / Foreign Office, please feel free to contact me at: [email protected]


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