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Home » Reader question » Reader question: Two quotes for solar panels with a large price difference
Dear readers,
We would like to have solar panels on the roof of our future home in Thailand (Koh Samui). Now we have received 2 options with both a very large price difference.
1. The first option is without batteries. When the power goes out, we get more electricity, not even from the solar panels. (190,000 THB, Payback after 4-5 years).
2. The two option is with batteries. When the power goes out, there is still a supply of electricity. (440,000 THB, Payback after 10 Years)
Both options 2 rows of 7 panels.
Does anyone have experience with this and are these costs average for Thailand?
Regards,
Mildred
Editors: Do you have a question for the readers of Thailandblog? Use it contact form..
There is little to say about the prices, because batteries / accumulators come in many types, sizes and numbers.
You must also include your power consumption in the calculation.
With option 1 you buy 1 product – solar energy.
With option 2 you buy 2 products, solar energy and emergency power.
That emergency power will cost you 250.000 Baht.
The question should be, does my power go out so often that I want to purchase an emergency power supply for an amount of about 7.000 euros?
An amount that is not a one-off, because those batteries will probably not last a lifetime.
If you don't have a huge energy consumption, and the power goes out every day, you might want to consider a small generator for backup power.
We had 4 panels of 12W + 340 batteries + inverter installed 8 years ago and we lost 250.000 Baht for that. Of that, about 100.000 baht was for the batteries and the inverter. In that respect, 190.000 does not sound very unlikely.
440.000 including batteries sounds on the high side, but that also depends on the type and amount of batteries. So we do it with 8, but that is an absolute minimum. The installer had recommended 24 pieces, but we have chosen to use minimal power at night and no heavy equipment during the day either. If we had to choose now, we would go for a lithium pack that is much more efficient and lasts longer, but much more expensive to purchase. If the quote offers a lithium pack of considerable capacity, 440.000 will come closer to the real thing. The corresponding inverter must therefore be more advanced because lithium batteries need more precise “management”.
I'm not quite sure how your first option works though. Are you still connected to the PEA network? In that case, you must be able to have it installed in such a way that a power failure at the PEA has no consequences for you. Unless the power goes out when it's dark, of course. If you want to prevent this at all times, you are stuck with option 2, or with a generator in addition to option 1.
This is very brief.
Are they poly or mono structure panels, how much peak watt power? What is the brand?
How much efficiency do the panels have? Efficiency at rising temperature? After all, efficiency decreases when the panels heat up.
Are the newer type and flexible or the common rigid panels?
Do both have separate micro controllers for the panels?
How many batteries are there? Are they the required special low-charge batteries? how much Ah storage do they have?
Where are they placed.
How are the panels mounted? On roof, on ground what is the construction? How is your roof construction, can your roof support it? 7 panels of 20 kg / piece.
What kind of inverter was used, brand, power? How and what are the cables and their attachment (plugs)?
Furthermore, it may matter, the company. Can they do it, are they competent, reliable, professional? If necessary, ask for references, where they have been working and inquire there.
It's not so great when they tie things up and do a teep about it.
OK, so are some things to think about YOURSELF.
Please note that it must be a PEA approved installation
Otherwise they completely reject everything
suc6
Option 2 is very expensive. I also want to install a package as option 1. It seems possible to me to additionally connect one or more batteries that are charged during the day. They then supply electricity for the evening and in the event of a power outage. The set remains connected to the grid. If more power is needed than what the panels produce, the grid will step in. Supplementing with a few batteries won't be that expensive, right? Or is that not possible? By the way, I saw a complete package on Alibaba as I describe, but with built-in battery power for the evening. 12 panels of 480 Wp for 140000 Thb (excluding installation costs). I like to read comments.
No, you can't just do that. At the very least, you will need to convert the 12 volts DC from the batteries to 220 volts AC. And you have to ensure that the 220 volts reach your network without unauthorized power being pumped back into the PEA grid. They are not happy about that at the PEA. The PEA grid also needs to know when it should and should not supply shortages, because during the day you want any extra power from the grid, but in the evening that has to come from the batteries. If they are empty, I think you want PEA power again. So an advanced approved inverter will have to be installed and the entire installation will have to be approved by the PEA.
Hardly any system with batteries works on 12 Volt. 48V is much more often the norm, and often much higher.
The PEA makes very little difference who pumps what into the grid and when, as there is almost always a shortage. PEA really cares who pays for the infrastructure. That is why in Thailand you only get 1/4 of the price of the electricity you supply back. (Which, by the way, is a completely realistic calculation.) So if you supply illegally, PEA does not like that and you will be punished. Furthermore, there is a safety risk, if you are applying voltage to the grid, while the PEA technician thinks that the grid is voltage-free, spectacular consequences can be expected.
After we installed solar panels, and the meter reader came by and saw that our meter had stopped while clearly power consumers had been requested by EPA to also check our installation. There is nothing wrong with that, if we run on our own factory we are disconnected from the grid. The relays I use for this have an interlock, both electrically and mechanically. So there was no problem at all.
And as many residents of Thailand will have noticed. After a long power outage, when the power comes back, it cuts out again in 10 minutes. The reason is: All refrigerators, freezers, air conditioners and water pumps have been out for some time. When the voltage returns, they all start turning. That works for about ten minutes. Then everything turns off again. So the EPA employees wait at the fuse and quickly replace it. We won't go back on the net until everything has been stable for 20 minutes. The EPA likes that very much...
Arjen.
Taruud: I sometimes see nice phones on Alibaba. New iPhone 11 for 4000 baht. Do you understand what I mean?
Here's the link to the package I'm referring to:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Solar-Panel-System-Kit-5kw-10kw_1600108982034.html?spm=a2700.details.0.0.4a075624WoSZ4n
The inverter is a Growatt inverter that is also often installed in the Netherlands. The video is illustrative, but the inverter you see there is not a Growatt inverter. You do indeed have to be careful with online offers. This applies to Marktplaats and Alibaba.
Francis. Your directions are correct and I am aware. I also know that you need to consult with PEA. A temple nearby installed 60 solar panels without consultation and PEA was not happy about that. I am now first orientating myself on what is available on the market, what is possible and what is allowed. I myself supplied solar panel installations in the Netherlands for 5 years and had them installed by an expert construction company and electrician. Meanwhile, there are many new technical developments. The situation in Thailand is also different in terms of sun hours. I read that a yield factor of 1.25 can be used here. In the Netherlands that is 0.90 and I myself used a factor of 0.85 for safety reasons to prevent setbacks. I do estimate that the yield in Thailand is considerably higher than in the Netherlands. In the Netherlands, the yield is minimal from November to March. Quite stable throughout the year in Thailand. It will only be less during the rainy season, of course. My calculations show that a payback time can now be reduced here in Thailand to around 6 to 7 years. By the way: If you have the money available, it immediately yields a nice return, better than in the bank. And after 7 years it is pure profit. Nice that we can exchange information and experiences here on Thailandblog.
Indeed, very little information.
I built an installation about 20 years ago, with batteries, as a “Whole House UPS”
That cost me around 1 Million Baht at the time. When I installed it, there were no affordable installations for sale that ensure that when the batteries are full you supply back to the grid. I assume your installation will do that. Feeding back to the grid is quite complicated in Thailand. It is not allowed, unless you ask permission in advance. You write new construction, so you get a digital meter. It won't accept returns anyway. This means that when your batteries are full, you have to somehow ensure that you use the electricity you generate. This immediately explains the high price of the installation with batteries.
Because you want to use that electricity, but you also want your batteries to be as full as possible so that you also have power in case of a blackout…
There are hybrid inverters that also work without a battery. In the event of a power outage during the day, the electricity produced by your own installation remains available. That will only be part of a complete installation. My experience is that there are mainly blackouts and brownouts during bad weather. Then there is also little sun. If you have the largest panels available now, you will have 7×400 watts available in full sun. In bad weather you can be happy if 1.000 watts remain.
A brief description of my installation:
I have panels-charger-batteries-inverter. When my batteries are full, and therefore the charging stops, I switch to my own electricity. At that moment I disconnect our house from the grid. When the batteries are discharged to about 75%, I switch back to the grid. If there is a blackout or brownout, I also disconnect the house from the grid, and also switch to my own factory. I have installed a phase protector that intervenes in the event of a brownout. I also have an AVR that converts the incoming voltage supplied by the PEA to a pleasant 230V. In practice, it means that if the AVR can no longer keep up, I will only run at my own factory.
Arjen.
Reading your description makes me wonder why you made an investment of 1.Milj THB to be stuck with something like that? What's the use of this? If I understand correctly, you even have to monitor your installation for part of the day to switch to the grid at the right time and then back to your 'own factory'. That's what I call: trying but not being able to… Also what you write: once the batteries are full you have to start using that power….If you don't…. what then? If you really can not realize an offgrid installation then I can only give 1 advice: stay away from it.
Dear Lung Addie,
I'll ignore your advice to stay away from it.
You often pat yourself on the back by saying that you are such a huge techie….
Sure, but I need to clear up a few things right now.
I assume you know that when batteries are “full” they cannot store more energy. My panels do produce energy. I still want to use the energy produced, so I will switch to my own factory.
I don't want off-grid at all, I do want to have a reliable electrical supply.
My entire installation is controlled by a self-programmed PLC. I don't have to do anything about it. The PLC measures all data, I can set at what load level I will transfer to my own factory, and when I will return to the grid.
And the PLC also ensures that we go to my own factory when the grid fails, and go back to the grid when the grid provides a stable voltage for twenty minutes.
It was expensive, the same installation will now cost about 1/4, but the fun I have when the whole neighborhood is in the dark, and we just have electricity is priceless.
I don't really care if you don't like it, I'm very happy with my installation, which has been working properly for about twenty years.
Kind regards, Arjan.
Dear Arjen,
I'm not boasting at all or saying that I'm a huge techie. I primarily rely on measurements and afterwards on calculations and only then will it be decided what the added value is. In your answer you do not write anywhere that your factory is PLC controlled, but as you describe it appears to be manually controlled. You keep writing: 'I am switching to…. disconnect “I” 'the house from….'. With automation it is better to write: 'the system switches to…' at least then it is clear.
I can only consider your installation as a good piece of technology that you have realized, but it does not answer the question of the questioner at all. Not everyone is able to achieve such a thing and their main aim is to earn back and, if possible, to make a profit out of it, which is not (yet) possible in practice here in Thailand.
I assume that the payback time is calculated on the basis of the more normal consumption or costs. 190000 divided by 60 is a monthly bill of 3150 thb. Isn't this very high? Furthermore, it seems to me that with batteries you should have a faster payback time, no longer an electricity company bill for power from sunset to sunrise. Where am I going wrong?
That 190.000 Baht is 60 months of daytime consumption, as long as the sun shines.
The electricity bill will therefore probably be higher than 3.150 Baht per month, because electricity will also be used in the evenings.
No more bills for energy is only true if the solar panels generate enough energy during the day to power the entire house 24 hours a day and there are enough batteries available to store that energy.
Incidentally, I fear that in the calculation of the payback time the sun will stand in a clear blue sky without clouds every day.
I don't have the feeling that you earn a lot from solar energy - if you earn from it at all.
You should do it for the environment, but whether all those discarded solar panels and batteries - especially the batteries - are a blessing for the environment?…
Our payback time was 5 minutes. 4 minutes and 55 seconds to roll on the floor laughing after receiving the quote from the PEA and 5 seconds to tear up that quote and throw it away. For the costs that the PEA wanted to charge, we can replace a battery 100 times and buy a new inverter 2x, and then we will have something left over to go out for a luxurious meal every week.
Make no mistake about the cost of the batteries. They must be replaced every few years. It is officially 4 to 6 with deep cell batteries, but in practice you usually don't get that. We can buy PEA power for at least six months from the cost of 1 deep cell battery. If we have to replace it again, we will consider a lithium home battery, which lasts much longer, but is also considerably more expensive and requires a new inverter. If you look at the costs, I think solar only makes sense if you can do without batteries. Unless, like us, the PEA wants an absurd amount. Then the calculation is made quickly. And from an environmental point of view it is also better to do without batteries.
The purchase of an aggregate is a lot cheaper, I once bought a simple one for 9000 baths with rope and all, I do maintenance myself.
Those few times that the power goes out here, and then often works again after 30 minutes.
That few times the power was back on the net and Janneman was just busy tidying things up again.
The monthly costs of my PEA bill are around 1500 baht. A well-insulated house with two air conditioners that only run when necessary, all LED lighting.
Not a hair on my head who now thinks about investing 4 tons in solar panels, etc., which also need to be replaced after a number of years.
Often it is more a hype than a necessity that solar panels at your home.
Jan Beute.
Dear Mildred,
Based on the cheapest solar panels, you will produce a maximum of around 14x330Wp = 4,6kW of electricity based on your quote.
You will be offered approximately a 5kW inverter with 2 strings (rows). These inverters can vary greatly in price. From 20.000 baht with a 5-year warranty, or from 30.000 – 70.000 baht (including Huawei, Growatt, Solax) with a 10-year warranty.
Given the price that has been offered, I think you are on the luxury side of the inverters. However, you are bound by what the service company installs in terms of inverter. I've seen quotes on the mainland for 170.000 for a 5kw system.
Regarding the offer with batteries, the difference in price between batteries is even greater than with inverters. On the cheap side you have the lead/gel batteries and lithium batteries. On the very luxurious side you have the Tesla-like battery walls. I think this company has offered you such a battery system. Think of brands such as Solax, Alpha ESS.
These battery walls can work with the more luxurious brands of inverters of option 1. They can be connected to the grid and have their own charger and inverter to generate electricity and can pretend to be the electricity grid if it unexpectedly fails, so that the inverter connected to the solar panels can continue to generate electricity. when the sun shines.
I think the costs are in line with the limited supply of service companies on Koh Samui and the higher transport costs.
Hardly any system with batteries works on 12 Volt. 48V is much more often the norm, and often much higher.
The PEA makes very little difference who pumps what into the grid and when, as there is almost always a shortage. PEA really cares who pays for the infrastructure. That is why in Thailand you only get 1/4 of the price of the electricity you supply back. (Which, by the way, is a completely realistic calculation.) So if you supply illegally, PEA does not like that and you will be punished. Furthermore, there is a safety risk, if you are applying voltage to the grid, while the PEA technician thinks that the grid is voltage-free, spectacular consequences can be expected.
After we installed solar panels, and the meter reader came by and saw that our meter had stopped while clearly power consumers had been requested by EPA to also check our installation. There is nothing wrong with that, if we run on our own factory we are disconnected from the grid. The relays I use for this have an interlock, both electrically and mechanically. So there was no problem at all.
And as many residents of Thailand will have noticed. After a long power outage, when the power comes back, it cuts out again in 10 minutes. The reason is: All refrigerators, freezers, air conditioners and water pumps have been out for some time. When the voltage returns, they all start turning. That works for about ten minutes. Then everything turns off again. So the EPA employees wait at the fuse and quickly replace it. We won't go back on the net until everything has been stable for 20 minutes. The EPA likes that very much...
Arjen.
Comparing two quotes without knowing the details is pointless. I can say: installing your own energy supply requires a thorough and thorough study. I did this, starting with: my own kWh meter. Meter reading was taken twice a day for a year. Then you come to the actual conclusion that the consumption, which is incorrectly estimated by many, during the hours when nothing is produced by the solar panels, the consumption is almost as high as during the production hours. Refrigerators, freezers, air conditioners…. run as much at night as during the day…. This has a major influence on the price as the storage capacity is more expensive than the rest.
Many also stare blindly at the payback period, specified by the manufacturer: by the time you have reached it, you will already have a decent amount of costs to replace everything that has already ended its career, especially the batteries as well as part of the solar panels. They don't live forever.
At the current price of electricity in Thailand, a good installation is not profitable and it is also pointless to build an installation that cannot work completely off grid. Then you are much better off with a generator in case of an emergency.
I have also been worrying about the use of solar panels for many years… the sun shines here almost every day and the power supply sometimes falters. Yesterday my future neighbor who is going to build his house next to us came with an electricity meter and he told us that we only get 195 volts.
So many reasons to go solar, right?
But I don't do it, at least not to provide the entire house with solar power. What I am thinking about, for example, is to buy an air conditioner that runs on solar energy and that can then cool the house during the day. Or pumps that are powered by solar power during the day.
If you are looking for solar energy a bit, you will soon find out that what you think is good for the environment, is ultimately completely counterproductive. The material for solar panels is environmentally harmful and then the waste when the panels and / or batteries are exhausted!
If you can get a decent connection to the power grid, maintenance costs will be eliminated, including your own waste that is harmful to the environment.
I want to thank everyone for taking the time to give a really good answer to my question. I didn't give a lot of extra details because a, I didn't actually receive it and b, this is my first time asking a question on the blog (and also just getting acquainted with this blog). I didn't know I could ask much more detailed questions. Good to know if I have another question.
Let's take a moment to think about all these comments. Possible purchase of extra batteries? What is the actual consumption? Is this the most environmentally friendly solution or is it better to use another solution? Does PEA have an interest in this decision or not? etc.
Thanks!!